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Rifle Scopes Is something wrong with my scope? (Revisited)

123Nick

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 29, 2010
268
1,126
FL
Hi All,

with 100 yrd zero, shooting Federal .308 Win the 168gr bullet drop is around 4.2" for 200 yards (Federal website data )

Having 1/4" clicks on my Conquest for 200 yrd target I need to dial a correction: 4.2" X 4(clicks per inch) = 16.8 clicks, but in practice I dialed only 8 clicks (2")

Where am I calculating this wrong?

Thanks!

 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

If 1 click moves the bullet impact 1/4 inch at 100 yards, how far will 1 click move bullet impact at 200 yards? Your answer is explained in the last thing you said, "but in practice I dialed only 8 clicks (2")".
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

I'm getting the same calculations using JBM as well it shows me you should be getting a drop of 4.2 inches at 200.

At 200 yards every click you make will move it a half inch at 300 every click moves it 3/4 inch per click at 400 one click would make it move 1 inch and so on. Do you follow?

Hope this helps
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

that leads to a click value calculation:

200 yards / 100 yards X .25" = .5" (click value at 200 yards)

with 4.2" drop at 200 yards I'd do 4.2" X .5" = 2.1"

2" (round 2.1") X 4 clicks per inch = 8 clicks
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

As some indicated a correct click value must be known for an intended shot distance.
While the calculation below produced right results for 200 yards, the formula doesn't seem right.

For example 300 yards clicks calculation:

300 yards / 100 yards X .25" = .75" (click value for 300 yards)
15.6" (bullet drop at 300 yards) X .75" = 11.7" (real scope adjustment)
11.7" X 4 clicks per inch = 47 clicks (rounded)

The following Ballistics calculator produced 20 clicks:
http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Nick,

Still calculating it wrong, Sir.....

15/0.75" clicks @ 300 yds = 20 clicks

That's because each click moves your POI 0.75" @ 300 yds, or 3 times the distance your POI moved @ 100 yds (0.25"). At 400 yards each click will move your POI 1.0". @ 1000 yds each click would move your POI 2.5", or 10 times the rate it did @ 100 yds.

See the JBM chart below, for a Sierra 168 SMK @ 2670 FPS, or the same as a factory Federal GMM load:

Column 1 is range in yards.
Column 2 is total drop in inches from a 100 yd Zero
Column 3 is 0.25"/100 yds i.e. the number of 0.25" clicks @ 100 yds, needed for each range you are trying to reach.

Note: all numbers are rounded to whole numbers

Range Drop Drop
(yd) (in) (Col 2) (in)
0 -2 ***
100 -0 -0
200 -4 -8
300 -15 -20
400 -34 -34
500 -63 -51
600 -104 -69
700 -158 -90
800 -231 -115
900 -325 -145
1000 -447 -179

Bob
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Why are you counting "clicks"?

You have 1/4 IPHY "clicks".

You need to move 2 IPHY to move the bullet 4" @ 200 yds.

2 X 4(1/4 IPHY X 4 = 1 IPHY) = 8 "clicks"

Skip all the crap and look at your dial. Come up 2 Full marks, Done.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

If anybody can correct or confirm would be great:

D - distance.
C - 100 yard constant.
CV - click value at C. (.25 for inch, .2618 for MOA)
DV - click value at D.
BD - bullet drop at D.
N - number of clicks for D.

D / C * CV = DV
BD / DV = N

400 / 100 * .25 = 1
35 / 1 = 35

there is a small difference if the scope has MOA adjustments:
click value would be 1.0472 X .25 = 0.2618

400 / 100 * .2618 = 1.0472 (click value at 400 yards)
35 / 1.0472 = 33.42 ~ 33 clicks




 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Ya all assume he has a true .25 click value. Do a vertical line test, fire 5 rounds at your 100 yrd zero at the bottom of a 4 ft. tall board, at 100 yrds. While still aiming at your 100 yrd zero, dial in 10 moa, shoot 5 rounds, dial in 10 more, shoot 5 more, dial in 10 more, fire 5 more. Then measure the distance from the middle of the groups, if they don't measure 10.47 in. you don't have a .25 click value
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Sorry if anyone thinks this is condescending...it's not meant to be. I think pictures make it easier to visualize this concept.

Slide1-1.jpg


The length of the arc subtended by angle "theta" at distance "r" is equal to the fractional circumference of a full circle the angle subtends. In other words, it is the length of the arc between where the two lines (separated by angle theta) cross the circle at some distance "r". It's easy to think of this as a shot group diameter. Note that the angle "theta" in this picture is not drawn to scale (in actuality it would be several hundred MOA the way it is drawn).

In this case, theta is 1/21,600 of a full circle (360 degrees in a circle x 60 min per degree = 21,600 min in a full circle). So, you get (1/21,600) x 2 x pi x r. If r = 100 yd (3600"), then "arc100" = 1.0472". Thus 1 MOA at 100 yd = 1.0472".

Note in the figure that for "arc200" the distance is 2 x r, and for "arc300, the distance is 3 x r. For r = 200 yd (7200"), then "arc200" = 2.0944". For r = 300 yd, "arc300" = 3.1416". Thus, 1 MOA equals increasing arc length as the distance "r" increases.

This translates to accuracy and using your turrets to change point of aim in the following way. A 1 MOA rifle should produce groups of 1.0472" at 100 yd. If other factors such as wind, etc., are ignored, the same 1 MOA rifle will produce groups of 2.0944" at 200 yd, 3.1416" at 300 yd, and so forth. It may be hard to conceptualize, but in theory, a 1 MOA rifle should give just over 10 inch groups at 1000 yd. The same principle is true for turret clicks. If the turrets are listed as 0.25 MOA per click, then this has been calibrated at 100 yd. This means that at 100 yd, one click will move the point of aim by 0.25 MOA, or 0.2618" (1.0472" per MOA x 0.25).

At 200 yd, one click will move the point of impact by twice the distance it would at 100 yd. Therefore, at 200 yd 1 click = 0.5 MOA (0.5236"). At 300 yd, it will move the point of impact three time the distance it would at 100 yd. Therefore, 1 click at 300 yd = 0.75 MOA (0.7584").

In actuality this is not completely true as the "click" value remains constant at 0.25 MOA per click, you are simply increasing the length of the arc subtended by that angular value as the distance increases (ie. the arc subtended by 0.25 MOA at 200 yd is 0.5236"). But for practical shooting purposes, the click value goes up as distance goes up.

The formula to calculate this is as follows:

target distance (yd)/100 yd] x calibrated 100 yd click value (MOA)


For the examples in the thread:

200 yd/100yd x 0.25 MOA = 0.5 MOA per click; to change point of impact by 4.2 MOA, you'll need ~ 8 clicks

At 300 yd, it will be 0.75 MOA per click; to change the point of impact by 15.6" (14.9 MOA) ~ 20 clicks.

As far as turret calibration, I agree with Savageman110, you probably want to test it at the range at least once to be sure how good the calibration is. I just did this recently for my Nightforce 3.5-15x50. At 200 yd, it moved the (group) center point of impact by exactly 0.72" as the average of 3 separate groups. I have 0.1 milrad turrets, which should be equal to 0.36" at 100 yd or 0.72" at 200 yd. So it's pretty much dead on.

In any case, I'm not sure this is any clearer than any of the other explanantions above, but if you look at the picture carefully, it may help clarify the relationship between increasing distance and setting turrets on your scope.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Thanks gstaylorg and others! It is MUCH clearer now and I'll also follow the advice by Savageman110 for the calibration test.

Happy shooting everyone!
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Can't agree more... inches, moa... My next scope is going to be Mil/Mil
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't agree more... inches, moa... My next scope is going to be Mil/Mil </div></div>

It won't help until you understand that a mil is 3.6" at 100 and 7.2" at 200.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't agree more... inches, moa... My next scope is going to be Mil/Mil </div></div>

It won't help until you understand that a mil is 3.6" at 100 and 7.2" at 200.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

Right you are my friend. No matter what the unit, the unit as a measurement of angle related to the distance must be understood. A mil is a mil, an moa is an moa, and one iphy is one iphy. Fluency in the concept is what's needed, the rest is semantics.

Once the concept is grasped you could have scopes and reticles marked in handbreadths per 100 cubits (which scope would Jesus use?).
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Ya, but you have no reason to use or explain 3.6" or 7.2... it's irrelevant to shooting with a mil - mil scope... means nothing.

if you have dope in Mils, why have any linear number.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

exactly! the convertion from inches to mils or moa and back does seem like unnecessary step...
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Last comments...dead on! I only went into that level of detail and conversion to inches for the purpose of getting the concept across; my NFs are all mil/mil. Having said that, I would really rather use a different unit: pie. I'm very fond of pie; in fact, I LOVE pie. If the turret/reticle units were "paper-thin skinny-assed slice of pie", no matter how long the slice, I would know exactly how wide the crust was at the end. Unfortunately, NF doesn't offer this option, so I guess I'll have to stick with mils.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">exactly! the convertion from inches to mils or moa and back does seem like unnecessary step... </div></div>


Well Lowlight, I guess there's the proof right there that someone having a hard time grasping the concept of angular subtension at various ranges and how it relates to what their turrets are marked (evident from 123Nick's first post in the thread) can easily jump on the mil/mil train.

I still think knowing what your reticle suntends in linear measurement (regardless of the unit used for either subtension or linear measurement) is imperative to know.

One does not have a guarantee that their mildot master, LRF, or data cards are going to be available. Any proficient rifleman (in my opinion) should be able to put whatever knowledge he has towards making a first round hit, and this includes estimating range if necessary using target size and reticle subtension.
If the first round hit does not hit, THEN believing the bullet (only seen if rifle is properly driven) and making the proper adjustment comes into play-but isn't the first round hit the ultimate goal?

I just don't get how mil/mil is superior at making the first round hit-I agree that it is the most uniform mfr to mfr, leading to less congusion of what is dialed, but how does it make the initial shot better?
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

You guys obviously have a lot more practical experience than in this area than I do, so correct me if I'm wrong on this. Didn't the idea that mil/mil is better originate due to scopes having a a mix of a mil dot reticle and MOA turrets, so that a conversion was necessary?
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">exactly! the convertion from inches to mils or moa and back does seem like unnecessary step... </div></div>


Well Lowlight, I guess there's the proof right there that someone having a hard time grasping the concept of angular subtension at various ranges and how it relates to what their turrets are marked (evident from 123Nick's first post in the thread) can easily jump on the mil/mil train.

I still think knowing what your reticle suntends in linear measurement (regardless of the unit used for either subtension or linear measurement) is imperative to know.

One does not have a guarantee that their mildot master, LRF, or data cards are going to be available. Any proficient rifleman (in my opinion) should be able to put whatever knowledge he has towards making a first round hit, and this includes estimating range if necessary using target size and reticle subtension.
If the first round hit does not hit, THEN believing the bullet (only seen if rifle is properly driven) and making the proper adjustment comes into play-but isn't the first round hit the ultimate goal?

I just don't get how mil/mil is superior at making the first round hit-I agree that it is the most uniform mfr to mfr, leading to less congusion of what is dialed, but how does it make the initial shot better?</div></div>

Neither mils nor moa have anything to do with the shooter pulling the trigger... what you're asking has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation in any way, shape or form... as well as stated in your second paragraph, how does the linear value have anything to do with ranging ? You have to know the target size to begin with, but it all ends right there... linear thinking in terms of the reticle or the scope is not necessary for the ranging processing.

Seeing your impact for a follow up, is your answer, you only need to know where the impact, either on paper or in the field was on the reticle. When you see it 1 Mil off the target, who cares whether that 1 mil is 300 yards, or 960 yards, which changes the linear distance on the ground but not in the scope. I have absolutely no reason to think in distance beyond my reticle. Impact 1 mil left regardless of range, means dialing 1 mil right on my scope, or holding 1 mil in my reticle. The ground value is wasted information.

Absolutely one should know, but honestly it's not even secondary information, it's more like 4th on the list of things to know. It is truly What you See is What you Get...

The confusion is exactly what was explained above and what clouds the mind for most new shooters. The idea that 1 MOA @ 100 is 5 MOA @ 500 and so on, they start compounding corrections, because they are taught to do so. There is not enough MOA reticles or people who know how to use them to explain the difference between teaching someone that it too can be What you is what you get, instead they fall back on 1 MOA is 1 at 100, 3 MOA is 3 at 300, so people naturally think they need to add... Many will go up and say, well I am shooting at 700 yards I need 7 MOA X 700 so I need too add, that is 49 inches, exactly like this guy did compounding the number.

You guys who advocate MOA / MOA use on this site have an advantage of studying the principal and concepts, however I see a lot of people who are either new or misunderstood, so they confuse the issue easily. Just because you know it, doesn't mean the other guys -- mainly because MOA is taught like above, 1 at 1, 2 at 2, etc...
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

My initial comment came on doc's heels of what the mil value is at different distances, which was pertinent to the conversation because the original question had to do with a shooter referencing the drop table he had at hand-a factory table with trajectory path in inches of drop at yardage ranges. As doc pointed out, mil/mil does no good converting a drop table in inches unless you know what a mil subtends at varying distances.

Perhaps it would have been better to tell the new guy to not look at factory data, and to buy a new scope, than to suggest he understand the concepts that are fundamental to his optic and the factory load data he was struggling with.

And for the record, all my scopes are mil/mil, I just think and have data in the other formats to help new shooter locally that have different gear than mine....

My intent is not to go against your experience or training curriculum, but to share mine.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

I must be missing something in the formula
200/100x.25 =0.5 is not correct

100X.25=25
200/25=8 not 0.5
Where am I going wromg? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.
However I do agree @ 200 yards click value for 1/4" clicks @ 100 yards for 200 yards is 0.5 inches.

If substtuting 50 yard value for distance the answer value would be = to 2

100 X .25 =25
50/25=2 which is incorrect. I belive @ 50 yards it should be 1/8 of an inch per click. Please correct me if I am incorrect..
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

Mil/mil is the only way to go. That being said, go to JBM and put in your click value, whatever it may be, and read the dope for your range and dial it. That way you won't keep "out thinking" yourself when you get into "inches of bullet drop" at a given range. Mil/mil is SO much more simple for people who are new to this stuff.

Michael T.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must be missing something in the formula
200/100x.25 =0.5 is not correct

100X.25=25
200/25=8 not 0.5
Where am I going wromg? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.
However I do agree @ 200 yards click value for 1/4" clicks @ 100 yards for 200 yards is 0.5 inches.

If substtuting 50 yard value for distance the answer value would be = to 2

100 X .25 =25
50/25=2 which is incorrect. I belive @ 50 yards it should be 1/8 of an inch per click. Please correct me if I am incorrect.. </div></div>

Forget "clicks". <span style="font-weight: bold">Divide your inches of drop by how many hundreds of yard the shot is and dial it.</span>
Don't make up your own formulas until you understand what you are looking at.

Using the drop chart from a 100yd zero and assuming your scope is actully .25" per click at 100 yards:

Range Drop (yd) (in)
100 -0
200 -4 (4/2=2:dial turret to "2")
300 -15 (15/3=5:dial turret to "5")
400 -34 (34/4=:dial turret to "8.5" 8 plus 2 clicks)
500 -63 (63/5=:dial turret to "12.6" 12 plus 2 clicks)
600 -104 (104/6=16.33333:dial turret to "16" plus 2 clicks)


Get it?

Now go to JBM and figure out how to print a dope chart with dialable values, not a drop table. You can put in (.955) MOA for the output and it will tell you how much to dial if your scope is inInchesPerHundredYards (1/4" each click at 100 yards).
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't agree more... inches, moa... My next scope is going to be Mil/Mil </div></div>

It won't help until you understand that a mil is 3.6" at 100 and 7.2" at 200.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

Correct, until the basic's are learned it matters little what system you use.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must be missing something in the formula
200/100x.25 =0.5 is not correct

100X.25=25
200/25=8 not 0.5
Where am I going wromg? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.
However I do agree @ 200 yards click value for 1/4" clicks @ 100 yards for 200 yards is 0.5 inches.

If substtuting 50 yard value for distance the answer value would be = to 2

100 X .25 =25
50/25=2 which is incorrect. I belive @ 50 yards it should be 1/8 of an inch per click. Please correct me if I am incorrect.. </div></div>

Consider the following:

1 + 2 x 3 = 9 and 1 + 2 x 3 = 7

Rule 1: First perform any calculations inside parentheses.
Rule 2: Next perform all multiplications and divisions, working from left to right.
Rule 3: Lastly, perform all additions and subtractions, working from left to right.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't agree more... inches, moa... My next scope is going to be Mil/Mil </div></div>

It won't help until you understand that a mil is 3.6" at 100 and 7.2" at 200.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

Correct, until the basic's are learned it matters little what system you use. </div></div>

Please read Lowlight's post #2010352 above.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must be missing something in the formula
200/100x.25 =0.5 is not correct

100X.25=25
200/25=8 not 0.5
Where am I going wromg? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.
However I do agree @ 200 yards click value for 1/4" clicks @ 100 yards for 200 yards is 0.5 inches.

If substtuting 50 yard value for distance the answer value would be = to 2

100 X .25 =25
50/25=2 which is incorrect. I belive @ 50 yards it should be 1/8 of an inch per click. Please correct me if I am incorrect.. </div></div>

Forget "clicks". <span style="font-weight: bold">Divide your inches of drop by how many hundreds of yard the shot is and dial it.</span>
Don't make up your own formulas until you understand what you are looking at.

Using the drop chart from a 100yd zero and assuming your scope is actully .25" per click at 100 yards:

Range Drop (yd) (in)
100 -0
200 -4 (4/2=2:dial turret to "2")
300 -15 (15/3=5:dial turret to "5")
400 -34 (34/4=:dial turret to "8.5" 8 plus 2 clicks)
500 -63 (63/5=:dial turret to "12.6" 12 plus 2 clicks)
600 -104 (104/6=16.33333:dial turret to "16" plus 2 clicks)


Get it?

Now go to JBM and figure out how to print a dope chart with dialable values, not a drop table. You can put in (.955) MOA for the output and it will tell you how much to dial if your scope is inInchesPerHundredYards (1/4" each click at 100 yards). </div></div>

it's easy to be nice and helpful isn't it?
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

And now your gonna be a wiseguy about it?

Easy answer to the title of your thread could have been "no, there's nothing wrong with your scope, read the manual". Folks tried to explain it to you, but you had your own formulas for a concept you clearly hadn't grasped.

I found myself with the time and inclination to type out what I've typed and explained untold times to new shooters: stuff that you could have easily found via google, searching this site, reading field manuals or many other avenues, just as the folks that have tried to help you already in this thread have.

Its easy to be an ungrateful smartass instead of just saying, "hey that makes sense. Thank you for simplifying the concept that I had myself wrapped around the axle overthinking instead of leaving me to look it up and learn it in the field for myself" isn't it?


......sheesh
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't agree more... inches, moa... My next scope is going to be Mil/Mil </div></div>

It won't help until you understand that a mil is 3.6" at 100 and 7.2" at 200.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>


Correct, until the basic's are learned it matters little what system you use. </div></div>

Please read Lowlight's post #2010352 above. </div></div>

I don't need the lesson, you do, besides I'm a IPHY guy. Work your math anyway you want, I don't care if you use Rabbits or Snakes in your math or scope myself.

If you think you have a better system, your welcome to try an prove it to me. Funny how you come on here asking basic questions, then when you don't like the answers, your now all that.

I don't know everything, but I do know enough to know when it's time to stop digging.

If you want to get into a question baiting session, I'm your sleeping dog.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And now your gonna be a wiseguy about it? </div></div>

Recall some of the past threads,...and it's always new guys w/o a complete profile,...

Houdini an Baghdad Bob, may have rolled into one for the latest, end game.
 
Re: Is something wrong with my scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 123Nick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that leads to a click value calculation:

200 yards / 100 yards X .25" = .5" (click value at 200 yards)

with 4.2" drop at 200 yards I'd do 4.2" X .5" = 2.1"

2" (round 2.1") X 4 clicks per inch = 8 clicks
</div></div>

You go through an unnecessary step.. Just divide 4.2 by .5 and you get 8.4 clicks..

Theres no need to multiply 2 times, when you can just divide once..