Is there a software that will measure group dispersion from POA? Mean distance?

[secondofangle2]

Hey, without restarting a discussion of Hornady podcast 50 (Which is happening elsewhere), is anybody aware of a software program that will measure your mean distance from the shots to the POA? That would be a measure of BOTH group size and POA-POI difference. I think I'm going to start measuring that.

The other way to do it, which I may do instead, is to use targets with dots and just shoot a row of dots, kinda like we did about 7 years ago on the SH challenge. I think that would make it easier to measure a "group" of any size. May even be a way to print the dots onto some kind of graph paper to facilitate measurement.

Ideas and thoughts appreciated. Thanks! SOA

ETA: another thing that the math/stats-minded guys might want to do (I'm thinking about it myself), is make a multivariable model that integrates the mean POA-POI difference I'm talking about and uses a multivariable model that also includes SD and is integrated with a ballistics calculator and tells you your predicted hit rate (kinds like a Litz WEZ analysis) at a given distance. Which is really what I want when I'm doing load development for long/extreme range shooting. Group size is for BR shooters.

 

[Modoc]

I am trying out the phone application Sub-MOA and it gives you the vertical and horizontal distance from your identified POA to the calculated center of your group. I’ve only used it once successfully, but it seems to live up to the hype. It doesn’t seem to want to work well on old target pictures though.

 

[Skunkworx]

Ballistic x will also give you xy coordinates of group center to selected point of aim

 

[secondofangle2]

Another way to do it would be to make the series of dots that I was talking about the same size as the caliber you’re shooting and have one of the above mentioned software programs measure the size of each of the “two shot groups”, where one of the “shots” is the dot used as POA;, and then average across all of the measurements

 

[FuhQ]

I use Ballistic-X as well.

 

[Baron23]

Hey, without restarting a discussion of Hornady podcast 50 (Which is happening elsewhere), is anybody aware of a software program that will measure your mean distance from the shots to the POA? That would be a measure of BOTH group size and POA-POI difference. I think I'm going to start measuring that.

The other way to do it, which I may do instead, is to use targets with dots and just shoot a row of dots, kinda like we did about 7 years ago on the SH challenge. I think that would make it easier to measure a "group" of any size. May even be a way to print the dots onto some kind of graph paper to facilitate measurement.

Ideas and thoughts appreciated. Thanks! SOA

ETA: another thing that the math/stats-minded guys might want to do (I'm thinking about it myself), is make a multivariable model that integrates the mean POA-POI difference I'm talking about and uses a multivariable model that also includes SD and is integrated with a ballistics calculator and tells you your predicted hit rate (kinds like a Litz WEZ analysis) at a given distance. Which is really what I want when I'm doing load development for long/extreme range shooting. Group size is for BR shooters.

On Target runs on a laptop and will give you ES and mean group size. On targets w multiple bullseyes/groups, it will show you target overall ES/mean group size but I’m pretty sure it’s averaged and not aggregate as each group has its own POA.

Now, I use their “Precision” product and I want to say it cost $11 at the time. Their “TDS” product is enhanced, costs a bit more ($35), and from what I read it can actually aggregate multiple groups as if they were all shot at the same POA.

Works good and is better for me than messing w a phone app on a small screen.

OnTarget Shooting - Measuring Firearm Precision and Accuracy

OnTarget programs measure firearm precision and accuracy, helping thousands of shooters worldwide improve their shooting performance.

ontargetshooting.com

 

[Tokay444]

SubMOA.

 

[secondofangle2]

How do I interpret the numbers?

 

[Tokay444]

You asked for an app that gives exactly those numbers, but you don’t know how to interpret them?

 

[Tokay444]

 

[secondofangle2]

Come on man, play nice. There’s not a standard nomenclature is there? Instead of blaming me for not understanding, blame yourself for explaining poorly?

 

[Tokay444]

What?

 

[SanPatHogger]

I am another that likes Ballistic x.
You can see the diatance, number of shots, your point of aim and then how far off from your point of aim you are.
It givs all the information you asked for.

 

[SanPatHogger]

How do I interpret the numbers?

What are you asking?

 

[Tokay444]

I am another that likes Ballistic x.
You can see the diatance, number of shots, your point of aim and then how far off from your point of aim you are.
It givs all the information you asked for.

View attachment 8064320

Except mean radius, but apparently he can’t interpret that anyway, so I’m lost.

 

[secondofangle2]

I’m at a funeral and distracted so I’m probably confused.

“Mean radius” (MR) to me would be the mean distance from center of POA to center of POI. In your first pic it says MR is 0.01” or just 10 thou from POA. In fact the group is centered .110 (110 thou)right and .130 (130 thou) low. I dont want to bother to do the trigonometry for the MR based on the right and low deviation until you tell me what you think MR is.

For *me* MR is the mean distance between POA and POI (which are radii of a circle, but really they’re just distances.)

The fact that the outputs are down and low (which are right angles of the hypotenuse which is the MR), suggests to me that your program is NOT outputting MR.

What am I missing?

 

[memilanuk]

What am I missing?

That mean radius has *nothing* to do with POI vs POA.

It is simply the average (mean) of the X & Y coordinates of all shots, relative to the measured group center.

“Mean radius” (MR) to me would be the mean distance from center of POA to center of POI.

There has been a standard definition for 'mean radius' going back to at least the 1960s, probably even further.

 

[carbonbased]

On SubMOA (which I like, but which has a pretty confusing interface) I assume:

• Group Size = yellow circle
• Group Area = blue box
• Mean radius = cyan line coming from yellow crosshair
• POI = yellow crosshair

Is this correct?

Edit: I forgot about the purple line…muh brain is too tired. Good night. I’m sure the answer is super obvious. Maybe the purple line is the yellow circle’s diameter? But that doesn’t look quite right buh i bee too tireddd

 

[Tokay444]

On SubMOA (which I like, but which has a pretty confusing interface) I assume:

• Group Size = yellow circle
• Group Area = blue box
• Mean radius = cyan line coming from yellow crosshair
• POI = yellow crosshair

Is this correct?

Edit: I forgot about the purple line…muh brain is too tired. Good night. I’m sure the answer is super obvious. Maybe the purple line is the yellow circle’s diameter? But that doesn’t look quite right buh i bee too tireddd

And POA black X.
Cyan line is POA to POI.

 

[carbonbased]

And POA black X.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Didn’t see it in your pics because the black X is placed over a black part of the target. Here’s an example of mine for others.

I definitely had some wrong ideas late last night, ha! For example, the cyan line is the POI shift and not mean radius. Thx @Tokay444

I’m not the OP at a funeral, and I’m no math whiz. So tell me if this is correct:

• POA = black X
• Group Size (aka Extreme Spread, right ???) = purple line ???
• Group Area = blue box
• POI shift from POA = cyan line
• Mean radius (click for explanation, I needed it lol) / Calculated POI center of the group = yellow crosshair ???
• But what does the yellow circle actually represent ??? Its diameter in my example pic is longer than the purple line.

I’ve used SubMOA a fair bit but never actually tried to figure out what color/shape represents what number. Be gentle.

 

[carbonbased]

Found a decent tutorial on SubMOA for iOS aka RangeBuddy for Android.



Buried in the comments is a way to display a white box with ALL the group’s data on that target aggregated. (Hopefully that’s the correct math term). Wasn’t obv with @Tokay444 ‘s pics as he only had one group.

Here’s a target I did when I was testing some rear bags out:

That white box’s data is pretty neat. It combined my three groups (yellow boxes). To activate it click on the button below:

And here’s the dev’s website. There are some more tutorials. I’ll have to dig into this confusing program some more.

Reloader's Cloud

Free Ammunition reloader's log book, shooting results management and target analysis system

reloaderscloud.appspot.com

There’s lots I don’t like about SubMOA, like on iOS after you set the bullet diameter you have to zoom in/out to get the green bullet outline to resize. And I can’t seem to edit saved analyses. Maybe that’s in the paid version?

But it seems to do more than Ballistic-X.

One thing I’m a little weirded out by is why it’s free. Who is this Haiyuan Wang dude who made it?

 

[Tokay444]

I believe the purple line cut in half would be the mean radius, and the yellow circle is centre to centre from the two holes furthest apart, or the MOA of the group.

 

[carbonbased]

I believe the purple line cut in half would be the mean radius, and the yellow circle is centre to centre from the two holes furthest apart, or the MOA of the group.

Yeah, that’s what I always thought about the yellow circle but then the purple line paralyzed my math lobes haha.

 

[Baron23]

Never used subMOA but I do continue to like On Target and works easily for my needs and its not on a fucking phone (haha)

This is group data provided on the target.....and yes, I stopped at 3 shots as I knew that neither I nor the rifle shot this well to 400 yards and if I pulled that trigger again I was going to fuck it up! haha That's right...I'm a coward! LOL

It also gives you additional info in a side bar for a selected single group like this:

And gives you added info on all groups combine on the target like this:

But, as I said in earlier post, this ^^ is an average and not a true aggregation of the groups as each group retains its own POA. Their more costly (but still pretty modest at $35 vs $12 for the one I have) version does have the capability for "virtual groups" where it apparently actually aggregates groups to the same POA and provides analytics for this combined larger group. Cool feature.

OnTarget Shooting - Measuring Firearm Precision and Accuracy

OnTarget programs measure firearm precision and accuracy, helping thousands of shooters worldwide improve their shooting performance.

ontargetshooting.com

 

[secondofangle2]

That mean radius has *nothing* to do with POI vs POA.

It is simply the average (mean) of the X & Y coordinates of all shots, relative to the measured group center.



There has been a standard definition for 'mean radius' going back to at least the 1960s, probably even further.

That’s great, but in the OP I thought I made it clear that I was not looking for what you are defining as the main radius dating back to the 1960s. I am looking for the mean distance between POI and POA.

 

[Tokay444]

That’s great, but in the OP I thought I made it clear that I was not looking for what you are defining as the main radius dating back to the 1960s. I am looking for the mean distance between POI and POA.

Then what numbers can't you interpret?

 

[Baron23]

I am looking for the mean distance between POI and POA.

I just showed you software that does that....???

This is at the target level and is showing the average of offset of all groups on the target from POA

 

[secondofangle2]

You can use those to calculate the POI-POA but those aren’t the numbers. You need to use Pythagoras to find the hypotenuse for that.

 

[Tokay444]

You can use those to calculate the POI-POA but those aren’t the numbers. You need to use Pythagoras to find the hypotenuse for that.

They do the math for you with, "Group Offset".

 

[ma smith]

You can use those to calculate the POI-POA but those aren’t the numbers. You need to use Pythagoras to find the hypotenuse for that.

Ideally, there would be an automated way extract and import the (x,y) co-ordinate data from a picture, into excel. Then simply integrate the (x,y) variance data into your choice of analytics.

 

[carbonbased]

I believe the purple line cut in half would be the mean radius, and the yellow circle is centre to centre from the two holes furthest apart, or the MOA of the group.

I just noticed something weird about SubMOA vs the OnTarget software. If you think of the circles/rectangles/different colored lines as "icons" or "language", it seems that these two softwares might be speaking a different dialect. Hear me out.

I just want to confirm SubMOA is doing what it says it's doing.

SubMOA always draws that circle to intersect the outmost centers of the bullet holes. Many other software programs, like OnTarget, don't do that. I don't really care if they arrive at the same conclusion, but I don't have OnTarget software. Maybe someone could run my attached "blank.jpg" target through OnTarget and report back? 100 yrd, .224 diameter bullet.

I've attached the SubMOA version for convenience.

SubMOA

OnTarget

 

[Tokay444]

Yeah, seems like the circle in On Target signifies the center of the group.

 

[carbonbased]

Just bought a yearly subscription to Ballistic-X to see wtf is going on. They didn’t have these options when I last checked. Their display is different as well, but the numbers seem to checkout?

Double check for me. Below is the Ballistic-X output.

Below is the same target only SubMOA:

Also, found TargetScan, an iOS app that seems to autoscan the holes like OnTarget. Only it's not obv on a PC, it's on your phone and you take a pic vs scan a physical target. Didn’t buy it.

Catch is that it's shooting discipline-based and seems to need very specific targets.

TargetScan App

targetshootingapp.com

demo:

And @Molon shows how to manually calc mean radius here.

 

[ma smith]

Mean radius vs max chord is a good debate

 

[carbonbased]

Mean radius vs max chord is a good debate

oh man, lol I don't even know what you're referencing. Did I stumble upon some math debate haha ow ow muh brain

 

[Baron23]

You can use those to calculate the POI-POA but those aren’t the numbers. You need to use Pythagoras to find the hypotenuse for that.

Edited - dang, my software, been using it for at least a couple of years, and I still made an idiotic mistake. In the Group view, the sidebar does indeed show Group Offset and this is indeed the slant range distance to the designated POA.

Note that in my first post which showed sidebars there is the "group sidebar" image and then the "target sidebar" image and when I replied, I copied the Target sidebar which does NOT have Group Offset as it doesn't truly aggregate the groups so there is no virtual shared POA from which to derive the combined offset for the entire target.

Now, the $35 dollar enhance version (OnTarget TDS) does have group offset distance both for individual groups and target aggregate because it does generate an "virtual POA" as part of the aggregation process. Don't hold me to the details...I have not used the TDS version. So, I'm guessing that it uses the defined group mean as the basis of this measurement. Not sure what else would be applicable or meaningful.

It never occurred to me to want a slant range for offset as I have an Y axis adjustment on my scope (elevation turret or reticle hold) and I have an X axis adjustment on my scope (windage turret or reticle hold) but I definitely don't have a slant range adjustment.

Its your business why you want slant range...but I'm curious what value you see in such data?

 

[Baron23]

Maybe someone could run my attached "blank.jpg" target through OnTarget and report back? 100 yrd, .224 diameter bullet.

I've attached the SubMOA version for convenience.

Give me a few minutes and I'll try to get it done for you.

 

[Tokay444]

The hypotenuse is solved for in, “group offset.”

 

[Baron23]

SubMOA always draws that circle to intersect the outmost centers of the bullet holes. Many other software programs, like OnTarget, don't do that.

The big circle with the cross in it is where you designated the POA (you prob new that).

The smaller circle you referenced is drawn around the mean POI with mean radius. Capisce?

 

[Baron23]

The hypotenuse use is solved for in, “group offset.”

Good god, I'm becoming an imbecile. I didn't notice that I was looking at the "target" view sidebar when I posted that he was right (because of previously mentioned stupidity) which does NOT have offset distance...because the lower cost version I use does not have an aggregated "virtual" POA from which to derive it.

One reason I guess it didn't occur to me is that I am interested in vertical (elevation) and horizontal (windage) offsets and never have thought that slant range offset was useful...I mean, I don't have a slant range turret or reticle stadia. Not sure what it would be useful for exactly.

And, I have about 18 windows open on my laptop and I'm soooo confused! haha

Now, the $35 dollar enhance version (OnTarget TDS) does have group offset distance both for individual groups and target aggregate because it does generate a virtual POA, aggregates the groups around it, and therefore can calculate slant range.

I edited my post above. Thanks for catching it. I

 

[Baron23]

@carbonbased - I used where you indicated 1" on the target for scale. Hopefully, that's why you put it on there, right?

Here is your target pic from OnTarget's $12 version.

Here is the sidebar data for Group 1 which is the center bullseye

sidebar data for Group 2 which is the left bullseye

sidebar data for Group 3 which is the bottom bullseye

And the target overall sidebar

Looks like they are pretty dang close (I only compared the center BS's) and differences can prob be chalked up to manual designation of POA and bullet holes...and prob some shit just from running multiple iterations of the image from you to me to OnTarget.

Hope this is helpful to you.

 

[308pirate]

Come on man, play nice. There’s not a standard nomenclature is there? Instead of blaming me for not understanding, blame yourself for explaining poorly?

Maybe put the onus on yourself to research and learn, instead of just asking and expecting.

You will learn 10X more the first way.

 

[spife7980]

 

[carbonbased]

@carbonbased - I used where you indicated 1" on the target for scale. Hopefully, that's why you put it on there, right?

Here is your target pic from OnTarget's $12 version.
View attachment 8064956

Here is the sidebar data for Group 1 which is the center bullseye
View attachment 8064957

sidebar data for Group 2 which is the left bullseye
View attachment 8064958

sidebar data for Group 3 which is the bottom bullseye
View attachment 8064959
And the target overall sidebar
View attachment 8064960

Looks like they are pretty dang close (I only compared the center BS's) and differences can prob be chalked up to manual designation of POA and bullet holes...and prob some shit just from running multiple iterations of the image from you to me to OnTarget.

Hope this is helpful to you.

Hey, thanks man! This has sorta turned into a shot group app comparo, haha (sorry). Turns out all the apps match each other's data within the human margin for error. Thanks alot, and yep, I slapped that 1" mark on there for you.

So the OnTarget PC app and SubMOA both have a group aggregate function (not sure if “aggregate” is the right word). That's pretty killer.

Ballistic-X seems more user-friendly than SubMOA, but it costs $10/yr, doesn't have a group aggregate (I don't think, gonna ask the dev). Plus I'm having trouble with it.

When I tried logging into my old ballistic x account, I lost access to the advanced stuff I just paid for! And there's no logout feature. And pic export takes forever. Got an email into the dev.

Then I just noticed https://ballistic-x.com, which is linked from Apple's app store, doesn't…seem…to…work. Hmmmmm.

Why I was attempting to log into my old BX free account was to see if there's a way to save results, like in the free SubMOA. For an extra $5 SubMOA also has that cloud backup option (and linking reloading data to results, etc).

I dunno, just like last time I looked at these two apps, cryptic and free SubMOA comes out on top. So weird.

I think if the dev of the auto-bullethole-indicating TargetScan could make it so it'll scan any target, he'd have a decent market. It would be way faster to use such an app.

To recap, after help from @Tokay444 and @Baron23, SubMOA bits and pieces:

• POA = black X
• Group Size (aka Extreme Spread) = purple line
• Group Area = blue box
• POI shift from POA = cyan line
• Mean radius (click for explanation, I needed it lol) / Calculated POI center of the group = yellow crosshair
• ????? = yellow circle

 

[Baron23]

So the OnTarget PC app and SubMOA both have a group aggregate function.

Let's be careful on terms here (says the guy who had to go back and edit his prior posts due to lack of attention to detail! haha).

OnTarget PC averages....does not aggregate. And to me the distinction is that one (PC) is just averaging the values of some figure of merit to obtain a target wide value vs actually layering POAs over each other to determine a virtual POA (TDS) and then laying the POI on that.

Now, I do think there is a difference in the two...but don't ask me to detail it cause I dunno. Perhaps someone far smarter than I about such can weigh in.

I think if the dev of the auto-bullethole-indicating TargetScan could make it so it'll scan any target, he'd have a decent market.

Ah, and how does auto-bullet hole-indicating work when you shot hole in hole (or close to it)...for at least two of the groups shots???

Hey...its winter, its cold, we (well, me) is bored, and this does indeed pass the time!

Take care, my friend.

 

[carbonbased]

Let's be careful on terms here (says the guy who had to go back and edit his prior posts due to lack of attention to detail! haha).

OnTarget PC averages....does not aggregate. And to me the distinction is that one (PC) is just averaging the values of some figure of merit to obtain a target wide value vs actually layering POAs over each other to determine a virtual POA (TDS) and then laying the POI on that.

Now, I do think there is a difference in the two...but don't ask me to detail it cause I dunno. Perhaps someone far smarter than I about such can weigh in.


Ah, and how does auto-bullet hole-indicating work when you shot hole in hole (or close to it)...for at least two of the groups shots???

Hey...its winter, its cold, we (well, me) is bored, and this does indeed pass the time!

Take care, my friend.

I get it man. I’ve been laid up with cataract surgery. Going back to work soon.

Here is the FAQ for Targetscan:

TargetScan App - wiki

Maybe the “touching holes” or “blown out holes” is covered there. (are we still talking about targets? haha)

And I get it re:aggregate vs average. I suck at math so I’m not going there!

 

[Baron23]

I’ve been laid up with cataract surgery.

Damn...how did it go?

I had my right eye done Nov 2021...back to 20/20. Had the left one done this past Nov, also back to 20/20. I'm ecstatic at the results. I did def take it easy for the first week and did not shoot until four weeks when all restrictions were lifted. I'm sure I could have shot without harm at 2-3 weeks....somewhere in there. But we are talking about our eyes and I will not risk my vision unnecessarily.

Hope your surgery went well and you have at least as good of results as I.

Cheers

 

[308pirate]

 

[carbonbased]

Hope your surgery went well and you have at least as good of results as I.

I am definitely taking it easy. Left eye was done about a week ago, right eye was done Tues. My dad had three retina detachments when his eyes were done about 35yrs ago and one retina of his wrinkled permanently, so I got that going for me (imagine Bill Murray’s Caddyshack voice).

We shall “see” how it goes. Older I get, the more dad jokes I make.

I don’t even want to risk picking up my guns. They weigh less than my weight restrictions, but still. So I open the safe and take a look every so often lol.

I really appreciate the concern, man!

 

[memilanuk]

Here is the FAQ for Targetscan:
TargetScan App - wiki
Maybe the “touching holes” or “blown out holes” is covered there. (are we still talking about targets? haha

I think that app is oriented towards scoring 3P Olympic style air rifle and 22LR targets - one shot per target bull - so there are no touching holes, or if there are, somebody screwed up.