Isolating the trigger finger.

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Over the years and what seems to be far too frequent, I am encountering shooters who are using what is described as a "Convulsive Grip". I first heard the term "Convulsive Grip" at a point shooting class over a decade ago. The term was first described to me and I will quote it from the class hand out, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't worry about fine trigger control or precise alignment of the gun. The uniform contraction of the hand will keep the gun positioned properly. You will also find that it is extremely effective in controlling recoil since all the fingers of the hand contract together at the instant the round is fired. </div></div> I am not a fan of the Applegate/Janich point shooting doctrine and that is the primary source of information concerning convulsive grip.

In the past year I have been hearing more students bring this topic up. Many are reading it on the net, some encountered it in formal training classes. Either way the accuracy plays out the same. At first they are OK but after a few strings of fire or anything having to do with precision fire results in piss poor accuracy. Primarily this convulsive grip theory is pushed for handgun but I recently had a student purposely use it with a carbine. In the end the results are the same, right handed shooters push rounds to the left and low and left handed shooters push rounds right and low.

I found a video on youtube showing the progression of a convulsive grip. What you will see in this video is not that extreme. It is a shooter with a semiauto RPD Carbine and 100rd string of fire. There is a lot wrong with the shooter but if you watch the way he pulls the trigger with a convulsive grip and how it becomes progressively more violent, you can imagine the influence it has on the weapon and his accuracy.

RPD video, convulsive grip/trigger press

It is my opinion that a convulsive grip is natural. The untrained will tense up and flinch when you know there is a controlled explosion going off 15 inches away from your face. That controlled explosion is not natural so through training we make it natural. The following are what I instruct and do myself to ensure a uniform grip and the ability to isolate the trigger finger to maintain dexterity which allows for a trigger press that does not disturb sight picture.

• Dry practice every day. Some days it may be only a few reps and takes less than 2 minutes. Some days I may spend up to 60 minutes dry practicing.
  
• Dry practice before live fire, during live fire and after live fire. When you see poor results during live fire, step back and dry practice until you get it right. Try to have someone who knows what they are doing watch you.
  
• Ball and dummy drills. Buy or reload inert ammo. Load a few into mags during live fire training. You don't want to over do this but it will help you id flinches, convulsive grip and also allows you to train for malfunctions. If you see a push or flinch on the inert rounds then clear out the weapon and go back to dry practice.
  
  Years ago I heard Jacob Bynum (Rifles Only) say something along the lines of, live fire only validates what you learn in dry practice. I couldn't agree more.

 

[DoctorBen]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

Dry fire. Dry fire. Dry fire. Repeat until your trigger finger bleeds, and nothing else moves.

 

[fn_form]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

The only merit for Compulsive Grip I see is a MG covering a possible target for extended time. You can't preserve dexterity if you've kept a death grip on the pistol grip for 45 minutes. Even then it's just a common sense move, and it only applies to the first burst.

Even firing from retention entails a firm grip on the pistol and multiple trigger presses (dexterity).

Who came up with this Counter-logic Grip thing? I'd really like to hear why someone introduced it. It may have merit somewhere? Maybe teaching 100 trigger virgins--in one minute flat--to shoot a 10/22 full auto at a 3yd target?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

I have heard it referred to as the "gorilla grip" a lot more lately, and actually a lot of the resurgence of this grip comes from the AMU.

They teach to "grip" the pistol grip, and to let the trigger finger fall naturally on the trigger, so this brings the position back to your natural position, which in many cases has the shooter's trigger finger dug in to the knuckle.

They have carried this over to precision rifle training as well, and in some cases, (hand size varies here) it puts the trigger at the second knuckle.

The natural grip is meant, at least I believe to make it automatic, and based off the idea that you shoot these others systems the same as a handgun, high up on the grip. The position is built from the grip forward and not from the trigger back. They address each system, handgun, carbine and precision in the same way.

Gripping becomes a big part of it, because they use the term "grip" ... so they grip the pistol grip or stock, the trigger finger is allowed to simply fall on the trigger, almost as an afterthought.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

I think you summed it up pretty well except when you said afterthought. Placement of the finger where it naturally lies is not an afterthought but a means to get smooth trigger control. The problem is this technique is taught for good results with the Service Rifle not the long range rifle. When adapted to the long range rifle, for reasons you have stated many times, it can lead to much less than ideal finger placement. When match rifles are built like the Service Rifle, and it appears that's the way it's going, perhaps the technique will become more apparent for its worth.

 

[fn_form]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard it referred to as the "gorilla grip" a lot more lately, and actually a lot of the resurgence of this grip comes from the AMU.
...</div></div>

From what you wrote and know of it...

Check me on this: The above grip is one component in an "optimized" training system. This component being a universal grip instruction/eval technique that applies to all shooters for all firearms. As you said, building from the grip forward (customizing it for the individual shooter). And once consistent grip is established the shooter adapts their trigger finger training to the natural fall of their own finger/trigger contact patch.

I follow that.

Absent is the obvious cow teat action implied by "convulsive grip" and displayed in cowboy_bravo's video link. It raises the question of how the compulsive system completes the firing cycle (follow-through). Is the shooter supposed to relax/contract all the hand muscles for every shot? I doubt it. So we're back to maintaining trigger finger dexterity... which works in every situation in which you maintain control. No matter CQ or long range.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

Over the years and what seems to be far too frequent, I am encountering shooters who are using what is described as a "Convulsive Grip". I first heard the term "Convulsive Grip" at a point shooting class over a decade ago. The term was first described to me and I will quote it from the class hand out,

Don't worry about fine trigger control or precise alignment of the gun.


Man I've heard some pure nonsense over the years including the "instinct" shooting fad some years ago.

Trigger control is always critical for good shot placement. I still laugh at the hew "trick" pistols and whopteedoo ammo. Doesn't mean a thing if you can't place the shot. A Study was done not to long ago by an ER doctor about gunshot wound and he found that no matter what the caliber, shot placement was critical.

Never have heard about "convulsive" shooting, but it does make by wonder if you are actually having convulsions when you're shooting. I still do what we were doing in the mid 70's, using the weaver (with alignment) and "practical" shooting that started with Jeff Cooper. It works really nicely once you build up muscle memory. Funny thing about this, back in the day, we had more and more spec operators coming out to shoot with us. Yes, they went to the 9mm, but quickly came back to the .45.


In the past year I have been hearing more students bring this topic up. Many are reading it on the net, some encountered it in formal training classes. Either way the accuracy plays out the same. At first they are OK but after a few strings of fire or anything having to do with precision fire results in piss poor accuracy. Primarily this convulsive grip theory is pushed for handgun but I recently had a student purposely use it with a carbine. In the end the results are the same, right handed shooters push rounds to the left and low and left handed shooters push rounds right and low.

A fair amount of that can be trigger control, you can pull the trigger to the left or right with bad control or rushing the trigger; the same way you can yank the shot low when flinching or jerking a round off. Can they call their shots? This is important since you haven't mentioned follow through.


I found a video on youtube showing the progression of a convulsive grip. What you will see in this video is not that

Ya, more Internet instant experts.

It is my opinion that a convulsive grip is natural. The untrained will tense up and flinch when you know there is a controlled explosion going off 15 inches away from your face. That controlled explosion is not natural so through training we make it natural. The following are what I instruct and do myself to ensure a uniform grip and the ability to isolate the trigger finger to maintain dexterity which allows for a trigger press that does not disturb sight picture.

Ever been under fire? some of us have. We don't do convulsive and I'd bet we're a lot more accurate under pressure then this nonsense. Simple issue, it's been proved in combat, including CQC both military and police.



[*]Dry practice every day. Some days it may be only a few reps and takes less than 2 minutes. Some days I may spend up to 60 minutes dry practicing.

It's formally called "Dry firing". A practice that's been around for a lot of years, dating back to the 1800's. Seriou shooters dry fire be it pistol or rifle. (as long as the pistol can take it or by using snap caps).

*]Dry practice before live fire, during live fire and after live fire. When you see poor results during live fire, step back and dry practice until you get it right. Try to have someone who knows what they are doing watch you.

Can't argue with this, except you overlook follow through.



ad a few into mags during live fire training. You don't want to over do this but it will help you id flinches, convulsive grip and also allows you to train for malfunctions. If you see a push or flinch on the inert rounds then clear out the weapon and go back to dry practice.


Don't need to convulse with the weapon, we've been doing jam/clear drills with the .45 starting back with Jeff's days when he moved the program down from Arrowhead.

Suggestion: Go to Gunsite, learn... Sadly it's not really Gunsite anymore since Jeff sold the place and later passed. But some of his classic instructors are still around. We talk all the time. You would have gone down in flames at some of the "Practical" matches we used to have. They were tough and very challenging.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Function Over Form</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard it referred to as the "gorilla grip" a lot more lately, and actually a lot of the resurgence of this grip comes from the AMU.
...</div></div>

From what you wrote and know of it...

Check me on this: The above grip is one component in an "optimized" training system. This component being a universal grip instruction/eval technique that applies to all shooters for all firearms. As you said, building from the grip forward (customizing it for the individual shooter). And once consistent grip is established the shooter adapts their trigger finger training to the natural fall of their own finger/trigger contact patch.

I follow that.

Absent is the obvious cow teat action implied by "convulsive grip" and displayed in cowboy_bravo's video link. It raises the question of how the compulsive system completes the firing cycle (follow-through). Is the shooter supposed to relax/contract all the hand muscles for every shot? I doubt it. So we're back to maintaining trigger finger dexterity... which works in every situation in which you maintain control. No matter CQ or long range. </div></div>

Use the weaver, it provides the most stable platform for both function of the weapon (where no providing this can cause a weapon to malfunction) as well as a platform for multiple shots (or double taps as we call them).

What your'e discussing is horse hockey. I shot Cowboy matches in the early 80's with a blackhawk, still used the Weaver. Bob came up with a great idea (and I know the evolution of it), and it still works nicely.


PS, true Weaver had the pistol inline with the strong arm and the index finger of the weak hand is on the trigger guard. In the old days or IPSC, we used squared trigger guards on our .45s... the trigger guards were checkered and the recoil control was nice. Of course with the 9s and the 40s, you don't have that problem. Compensated .38 supers are fun.. but unreliable.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you summed it up pretty well except when you said afterthought. Placement of the finger where it naturally lies is not an afterthought but a means to get smooth trigger control. The problem is this technique is taught for good results with the Service Rifle not the long range rifle. When adapted to the long range rifle, for reasons you have stated many times, it can lead to much less than ideal finger placement. When match rifles are built like the Service Rifle, and it appears that's the way it's going, perhaps the technique will become more apparent for its worth. </div></div>

Excuse me, but where is the sensitivity of the finger? Not anywhere but the tip of the finger. You know who Mid Thompkin and Noma McCullough are? I used to shoot with them at DM, not to mention some of the other greats. This also boils down to handguns. I was trained to shoot to 1000 by one of Jim Land's USMC snipers. I shoot service rifle and have since 76. But i was brought up to shoot what I'd want to go to war with and I don't shoot .223.

 

[Enough Said]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

"Gorilla grip" should not even be discussed in a "Basic Marksmanship Forum", and has no place in a thread entitled, "Isolating the Trigger Finger".

It should be discussed and dissected in the Forum, "What NOT to do When Practicing Precision Marksmanship."

LOL

But, great discussion anyway.

 

[81STFACP]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

Here is what the AMU emphasized in the SDM training. I extracted this unauthorized copy from the course material presentation back in the day when CMP augmented AMU on the line, which I was part of the CMP side.

 

[Flying Goose]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

two things... that vid from the original post WOW! I've seen a lot over the years but I'm glad to say I've never seen trigger "control" like that! Secondly the ops comment about dummy rounds mixed into a magazine is a great tool. I used to do it while instructing all the time. The wife even does it to me once in a while. Its been a while since she's caught me but I'm always ready!

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Gorilla grip" should not even be discussed in a "Basic Marksmanship Forum", and has no place in a thread entitled, "Isolating the Trigger Finger".

It should be discussed and dissected in the Forum, "What NOT to do When Practicing Precision Marksmanship."

LOL

But, great discussion anyway. </div></div>

ROFLMAO!

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FlyingGoose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">two things... that vid from the original post WOW! I've seen a lot over the years but I'm glad to say I've never seen trigger "control" like that! Secondly the ops comment about dummy rounds mixed into a magazine is a great tool. I used to do it while instructing all the time. The wife even does it to me once in a while. Its been a while since she's caught me but I'm always ready! </div></div>

Years ago during the Cooper days, one of his instructors used to put on Invitational matches so he could try things out with people whose skill set he was aware of. Interesting things.

One of them was having a "friend" talk you up while having your sidearm getting a "safety check"... Someone always slipped a dummy round in the mag. Good way to learn tap and rack.

His "shop shoots" were a killer. Indoors and incredible way to lean how many time you will get killed by being stupid, having bad tactical sense or show you flaws in your skill set.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 81STFACP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what the AMU emphasized in the SDM training. I extracted this unauthorized copy from the course material presentation back in the day when CMP augmented AMU on the line, which I was part of the CMP side.

</div></div>

Interesting, not what was discussed with the USMTU (or AMU or AMTU) at Perry. I was talking with several of the guys for quite awhile and one of them picked up a rifle I had there to see something. According to your post, his trigger finger was natural. But I was taught by some of the great Marksman from USMC snipers to Mid Thompkin's... sensitivity in the finger is at the tip.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

You need to understand this is indeed what is taught by USAMU to
SDM students, as well as SAFS students; but, also understand this is in context to the M16 family of rifles. I can not grip my HS Precision Marksman Rifle as I do my AR. My finger placement on the trigger is therefore different. What's important is that the finger lay naturally on the trigger, that's to say, it should be relaxed. And, it should be positioned ( by the way you grip ) to complement the mechanical movement of the trigger. The big picture is that you pull the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing SMOOTH trigger control.

Also, it appears you have some faith in what you have been told by your shooting heros. It's good to listen to those who know how to do it. But, remember, all firing takes place at the weapon. This means you need to take what you have been told to do and then apply it to fit your unique relationship with the gun and ground. Getting consistency from awareness of muscular relaxation is paramount. Only you know your state of comfort, and, only you can discern what adjustment/technique is working to maximize support, muscular relaxation, and natural point of aim.

One more thing, are you winning? At some point what you have been told to do and what works or is not working for you will need to be reconciled. If trigger control is a problem, experiment. If you are not loosing points to trigger control, work on perfecting what is weakest about your position.

 

[Graham]

Re: Isolating the trigger finger.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use the weaver, it provides the most stable platform for both function of the weapon (where no providing this can cause a weapon to malfunction) as well as a platform for multiple shots (or double taps as we call them).</div></div>If the subject is trigger manipulation the 'double tap' has been dead for years. And to the extent that the Weaver stance teaches a grip, it's been dead and buried almost as long.

Note that a 'gorilla grip' does not isolate the trigger finger.