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Jumping into LRPS w/ my first "premium" optic.

Lux_612

Private
Minuteman
Jan 24, 2024
21
8
Minnesota
  • Platform
    • Bergara HMR Wilderness (bolt action)
  • Caliber
    • 6.5 Creedmoor
  • Intended Use
    • Intro to LRPS (Steel, Target). Matches would be cool to strive for, but I'm not there yet. No rangefinder, but will consider one based on feedback here.
  • Shooting Conditions
    • Daylight (primarily), Lowlight expected in the MN/WI region.
  • Distances
    • 1000-1500 yds. Further after learning the ins/outs of that. Matches are a long-term goal.
  • Specifications
    • ~5-30x56 zoom (FFP, Mil Center Dot), parallax 50 yds, no merging crosshairs at higher zoom, good eyebox, HMR is already heavy, so weight isn't a huge factor.
  • Price Range
    • $1500-$1900 new or used.
This will be a heavy investment for me, so I'm putting a lot of time and thought into what is the right choice. So far, the T6Xi 5-30x56 is what I'm considering at $1899 new. I'm fairly certain the SCR2 Mil reticle is appropriate for my use, but I am curiously drawn to the MSR2 since I'm without a rangefinder. However, I've read that the MSR2 is more appropriate for the 3-18 range, whereas the SCR2 is for the higher ranges. Yes/No? I've read the complaints of lens tint at high magnification, but I really don't know how to gauge if that'll be a problem for me. From my POV it's nit picky, and I think I could live with it...but idk without seeing it.

I've spent a couple months researching optics, reticles, reviews, LRPS instructional videos and so on. I'm a LE student, so time is limited. I'd really like to make a purchase sometime soon and support a retailer here. Two things I'm currently held up on:
  • In this price range, is it realistic to find something better in the used market here?
  • If I trade my beloved Bering Optics Hogster Vibe 2-8 Thermal, what scope would you look for in a trade? (~$2400 value)
Thank you for any help with this. I am really hoping to make this a purchase I hold onto for many years/life.
 
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Zeiss S3 6-36x56 is impressive. Care to elaborate on it? What sets it apart from the T6XI at $1899?
glass. reticle. it's not made by Burris (not hard to find any of the recent threads about their QC/QA/CS)
I would rather not go with Vortex. Good brand n all, but WAY overpriced IMO
the razor gen 3 is definitely not overpriced. and the way they stand behind their brand and support us goes above and beyond anyone else hands down
 
glass. reticle. it's not made by Burris (not hard to find any of the recent threads about their QC/QA/CS)

the razor gen 3 is definitely not overpriced. and the way they stand behind their brand and support us goes above and beyond anyone else hands down
My mistake. I thought you were talking about the HD Gen III. The non HD looks like an option.

I am somewhat aware of the Liberty Optics fiasco and Vortex stepping up with that, which is very respectable. IDK if that's what you were referencing. I know they support in other ways too (podcast, LE/Mil discounts etc.). They're a good brand. If I get an optic over $2K I would just prefer to try something new, that's all.

I thought I had it all figured out with the Steiner, but with these three options I've got some homework to do.

Edit: I briefly read about the Burris QC issues. Is the general consensus to avoid XTR Pro for the time being?
 
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My mistake. I thought you were talking about the HD Gen III. The non HD looks like an option.

I am somewhat aware of the Liberty Optics fiasco and Vortex stepping up with that, which is very respectable. IDK if that's what you were referencing. I know they support in other ways too (podcast, LE/Mil discounts etc.). They're a good brand. If I get an optic over $2K I would just prefer to try something new, that's all.

I thought I had it all figured out with the Steiner, but with these three options I've got some homework to do.

Have you even looked through a Gen 3 6x36??? Everyone views glass differently, but my 4 examples are better than my ATACR’s, and are getting close to the ZCO’s.
 
Have you even looked through a Gen 3 6x36??? Everyone views glass differently, but my 4 examples are better than my ATACR’s, and are getting close to the ZCO’s.
I thought so, but nope. It was someone's Viper PST Gen 2 5x25 FFP. Hardly comparable I'm sure.
 
glass. reticle. it's not made by Burris (not hard to find any of the recent threads about their QC/QA/CS)

the razor gen 3 is definitely not overpriced. and the way they stand behind their brand and support us goes above and beyond anyone else hands down
Well my mistake x2 🤦🏼‍♀️. Some Google searches were confusing me as some said HD and some didn't. If I'm finally understanding it correctly, there isn't a non-hd razor lol. Sorry about that.

Anyways, looks like they're selling used around $2K which is neat.
 
^They are at best 10% better than the G3. I've had both ZCO and TT and replaced both with G3's for the extra mag and continuity. Only reason not to get G3 is weight IMHO. Haven't tried an S3 though - supposed to be nice. I have both SCR2 in US XTR3's, and MSR2 in S&B ultra short. The SCR2 is finer and more suited to precision, while the MSR2 is faster. But really you're splitting cunthairs.
 
^They are at best 10% better than the G3. I've had both ZCO and TT and replaced both with G3's for the extra mag and continuity. Only reason not to get G3 is weight IMHO. Haven't tried an S3 though - supposed to be nice. I have both SCR2 in US XTR3's, and MSR2 in S&B ultra short. The SCR2 is finer and more suited to precision, while the MSR2 is faster. But really you're splitting cunthairs.
Cunthairs... That's a new one added to the brain dictionary 😂

For the 5-30x56, would you choose the SCR2 or MSR2, why? This may be a bit off based, but would the MSR2 replace the need to get a range finder? I thought I saw a video mentioning the ranging scales help with that.
 
Cunthairs... That's a new one added to the brain dictionary 😂

For the 5-30x56, would you choose the SCR2 or MSR2, why? This may be a bit off based, but would the MSR2 replace the need to get a range finder? I thought I saw a video mentioning the ranging scales help with that.
every ffp reticle is a rangefinder if you need it to be...and you can accurately mil targets. but it doesn't replace a rangefinder that's for sure

the MSR just takes up extra space and would be more useful in 2 way range situations where you need a rough guess on a man sized target, not the extra math of 'ranging' a 10" vs 15" target at 560y
 
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I’d buy that 6-36 S3 in the classifieds for $1800 and never look back.
Initially, I was a little turned off by their warranty (5 years on illuminated optics), but it looks like they do a good job at taking care of folks. I haven't been able to read into it beyond that.

I'll check it out and thanks for the heads up. I still gotta pay the monthly sub fee to get access there.
 
I'm gonna pay a monthly supporter fee. This place is very helpful and it's the least I can do. Plus, it beats reddit's GAFS by the looks of it. I just have zero rep here, so I can imagine some sellers being a bit apprehensive.

FWIW I've done a handful of (positive) transactions thru GAFS tho. Anyways, if I'm too late to the S3, np. I'll check it out when I can commit to it.
 
Used Gen 3 Vortex or Leupold MK5HD with PR-2 reticle. Several of the Leupy's for sale now on the forum for $1800ish.
-Gen 3 will have slightly better glass and be heavier.
-MK5HD Leupold has been super solid for tracking on rough-use guns in comps and hunting for me and lots of others I shoot with.
-Vortex warranty is great except you have to use it more...have had Gen 1 and 2 Razors go down at inconvenient times but they always took care of it. Gen 3 Razor may or may not be better than the first 2 gen's, haven't messed with them.
Both are good companies but I'd rather not need the warranty.

No affiliation with this seller but pretty decent deal on the Leupy with both Seekins and Hawkins rings. Both sets of rings are solid, I run mostly Hawkins on my stuff now with never an issue.


If you want a new Leupold @CSTactical are solid folk to deal with.
 
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Cunthairs... That's a new one added to the brain dictionary 😂

For the 5-30x56, would you choose the SCR2 or MSR2, why? This may be a bit off based, but would the MSR2 replace the need to get a range finder? I thought I saw a video mentioning the ranging scales help with that.

I enjoy ranging with the reticle, but you can do the same with the SCR2... just a matter of holding it steady enough to count, and having a good approximation of size for what you're measuring. Great skill to have, and I still enjoy doing it to see how close I can get... OK, 5.4 mils up, now let's see what Sig has to say... oops 5.6 mils.

I like the SCR2 because I really like the thinness - and for me would be the choice if I could only have one (and if not getting the G3). SCR2 I have on long range bolts, and MSR2 I have on an AR10.

As Redneck PK Ripper said, the used S3 might also be yer huckleberry - or maybe that's me since I have yet to try one and read good things.
 
according to a respected dealer, the S3 is so good that it has markedly cut into and diminished the sales and value of the S5
 
according to a respected dealer, the S3 is so good that it has markedly cut into and diminished the sales and value of the S5
Well, when you get 90% value of a $4,000 scope, for only $2,500... It's kind of hard to argue with those numbers. Granted, glass-wise, that 10% is a BIG 10% jump, I'm talking overall features and quality of the S3 vs. S5 is pretty close. I've handled several S5's in stores, and they're nice. I might add one of the 5-30x56 to my optics collection one day just to have one. But if I'm spending $4K, the first thing I'm buying is a ZCO 527 MPCT3.
 
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Why don't you go to a few matches and see what the shooters are using. This way you can get real time info and ask questions and look through some scopes.
 
Why don't you go to a few matches and see what the shooters are using. This way you can get real time info and ask questions and look through some scopes.
I would, but I haven't gotten that far yet. School has kept me pretty busy. Do you have any suggestions on where to find them? I'm in Chisago County, MN. WI is 10 min away so maybe more options there in the western part.
 
None of scopes he wants are ever seen at matches. 😉😬
I'm a ways away from doing matches. That's more of a long term goal. I'm interested enough to watch them though and make some connections, get advice etc.

Shorter term goal is to get a better scope, practice, and if I'm lucky find some mentorship in the field.
 
I'm a ways away from doing matches. That's more of a long term goal. I'm interested enough to watch them though and make some connections, get advice etc.

Shorter term goal is to get a better scope, practice, and if I'm lucky find some mentorship in the field.
This is advice you will likely get at a match:
get a used Gen 3 6-36 Vortex. 🤷🏾‍♂️🤷🏾‍♂️

It is literally the workhorse of the current match world. Outstanding warranty, glass is good, and built like a tank.

If your goal is to buy now, then upgrade later, then get whatever.
 
I'm interested enough to watch them though and make some connections, get advice etc.

Shorter term goal is to get a better scope, practice, and if I'm lucky find some mentorship in the field.
If you're going to take the time to drive to the match and spend time making connections and getting advice, you should just shoot the match. Bring whatever equipment you have and your squad will help you along the way. You only need a zero'd rifle, a mag or two, and some ammo w/ velocity data and a free ballistic solver. You should be there by this point.
 
OP, I understand that you need to keep to a budget at this point in your life. If you find a decent mid-range optic - which is where your price point is, especially on the used market - you should feel comfortable buying it and upgrading in a few years. I put a gen-1 Razor (5-20x50) on my first precision bolt rifle in 2017. Here we are just seven years later; we have the gen-3 Razors replacing the gen-2 as the workhorse of the PRS world. You can pay half the price of that 1st-gen Razor and get a better optic today. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a used gen-2 Razor (4.5-27x56) for around $1500. Other optics in your price range have been mentioned here which are very good. I'm talking Vortex here because I've owned a buch of them. I've looked through Zeiss and other optics mentioned here; they were fine but I haven't owned them.

It looks like you've been splashed with the "Vortex sucks" bilge. Here's the thing. If you buy a used Vortex Razor in the PX here* and it arrives on your doorstep broken and unsable - Vortex will replace it, right the f||| NOW. Full stop.

Several years ago, my son wanted a first-gen Vortex Strike Eagle like I had on my first decent AR. Our LGS (local gun store) was sold out of new ones but had a used one, which had some dings on it but seemed ok otherwise. Son bought it. In outdoor light, there was obviously something wrong with it optically that we couldn't see in the store. I called Vortex, told them the story, Vortex overnighted son a brand-new scope and I returned the busted one to the store (which I had kept in the loop).

As to the "well yeah, Vortex warranty is great - and you'll use it!" noise: I've purchased about a dozen of their scopes new, from the early gen-1 Strike Eagle through three gen-2 Razors to the three gen-3 Razors I have now. One of them went down: a Viper PST 5-25x50. They replaced it immediately. Check around here on SH for stories of how long it takes for other vendors to deal with issues, especially [Burr..p... excuse me...].

Search for "most reliable cars." What comes up? Toyota/Lexus. Go to a Toyota or Lexus dealership and look in the service lot. It'll have a pile of cars in it. Why? Because there are zillions of Toyotas out there. Some of them do break. I don't shoot many PRS matches, but I do shoot a fair number of rimfire events, especially NRL22. Vortex Razors - previously gen-2, increasingly gen-3 - are the most common optic I see. I have three G3 Razors and a ZCO 527. Check around here on SH. The overwhelming opinion is the gen-3 Razor punches FAR above its price point.

The gen-2 is still sold new. It's a very capable optic - not as good as gen-3, but not as costly either. If you can find one used for $1400-1500, it's a good buy. I wouldn't buy one new for the $2500 street price - that price is too close to gen-3, especially with the deals currently offered at Eurooptic.

Good luck.
 
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Which do you prefer out of the S3 vs RZ Gen 3?
They both have pros & cons. The RG3 has a better reticle and better glass, but the S3 is lighter weight and slightly brighter glass. Honestly, I like both scopes for the purposes I use them for (target shooting, no hunting). I’m not the spring chicken I once was, so I’m not really into rucking around a 20 lbs. rifle through the woods anymore. I have lightweight hunting-specific rifles for that…They all run Zeiss V4’s or a Kahles K318i SKMR3.
 
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OP, I understand that you need to keep to a budget at this point in your life. If you find a decent mid-range optic - which is where your price point is, especially on the used market - you should feel comfortable buying it and upgrading in a few years. I put a gen-1 Razor (5-20x50) on my first precision bolt rifle in 2017. Here we are just seven years later; we have the gen-3 Razors replacing the gen-2 as the workhorse of the PRS world. You can pay half the price of that 1st-gen Razor and get a better optic today. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a used gen-2 Razor (4.5-27x56) for around $1500. Other optics in your price range have been mentioned here which are very good. I'm talking Vortex here because I've owned a buch of them. I've looked through Zeiss and other optics mentioned here; they were fine but I haven't owned them.

It looks like you've been splashed with the "Vortex sucks" bilge. Here's the thing. If you buy a used Vortex Razor in the PX here* and it arrives on your doorstep broken and unsable - Vortex will replace it, right the f||| NOW. Full stop.

Several years ago, my son wanted a first-gen Vortex Strike Eagle like I had on my first decent AR. Our LGS (local gun store) was sold out of new ones but had a used one, which had some dings on it but seemed ok otherwise. Son bought it. In outdoor light, there was obviously something wrong with it optically that we couldn't see in the store. I called Vortex, told them the story, Vortex overnighted son a brand-new scope and I returned the busted one to the store (which I had kept in the loop).

As to the "well yeah, Vortex warranty is great - and you'll use it!" noise: I've purchased about a dozen of their scopes new, from the early gen-1 Strike Eagle through three gen-2 Razors to the three gen-3 Razors I have now. One of them went down: a Viper PST 5-25x50. They replaced it immediately. Check around here on SH for stories of how long it takes for other vendors to deal with issues, especially [Burr..p... excuse me...].

Search for "most reliable cars." What comes up? Toyota/Lexus. Go to a Toyota or Lexus dealership and look in the service lot. It'll have a pile of cars in it. Why? Because there are zillions of Toyotas out there. Some of them do break. I don't shoot many PRS matches, but I do shoot a fair number of rimfire events, especially NRL22. Vortex Razors - previously gen-2, increasingly gen-3 - are the most common optic I see. I have three G3 Razors and a ZCO 527. Check around here on SH. The overwhelming opinion is the gen-3 Razor punches FAR above its price point.

The gen-2 is still sold new. It's a very capable optic - not as good as gen-3, but not as costly either. If you can find one used for $1400-1500, it's a good buy. I wouldn't buy one new for the $2500 street price - that price is too close to gen-3, especially with the deals currently offered at Eurooptic.

Good luck.
Thanks for all that. I don't think Vortex sucks by any means, I just knew the HD price (new) and automatically ruled it out from the beginning. I wasn't aware of the cost of it used, but I assumed it was still too much. Now that I know it may be an option (used), the Razor HD Gen III 6-36 is actually top of the list. The caveat is that I can't afford it lol. I'd have to find someone who wants to trade it for my thermal. Haven't gotten to that step yet. Still trying to convince myself of that to be honest.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said Vortex is overpriced. I'll admit that. I've just looked through other models (not HD) and heard this n that from others experiences. I've heard they mark up items to account for their warranty, but idk if that's true or not. Frankly, if they did I wouldn't even blame them. They sell a lot of scopes lol, ergo more user error. So anyways, thanks again for the comment. I'm currently at either the Steiner T6XI 5-30x56 SCR2 (paying outright) or the Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 (trading thermal). We'll see what happens.
 
I'm currently at either the Steiner T6XI 5-30x56 SCR2 (paying outright) or the Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 (trading thermal).
For the Steiner - call - On The Phone - @gr8fuldoug at CamerlandNY. The business is a huge supporter of Snipers Hide. I and many others here have purchased from Doug. Ask questions. Buy with confidence.

For Vortex, Eurooptic seems to have become a favorite vendor here - they carry Steiner as well, but your choise is sold out at the moment. Check their web site for specials (15% off on Vortex last time I looked). Probably a good idea to check with Richard at CSTactical as well - another Hide supporting vendor.

When you talk to Doug, Richard, or someone at Eurooptic, mention that you are in LE training. Military and LEO get discounts at many vendors. Not sure "student" counts but it never hurts to ask.

I've dealt with all three of the above. Eurooptic was great, but totally like communicating with a big impersonal business. Much more personalized attention from Doug and Richard.

Back to Vortex for a minute: Vortex sales are dominated by their lower-end wares, which don't have the quality, tracking and overall reliability of the Razor-level optics. I recall at least one poster here who was on the Vortex-sucks bandwagon and all he had ever messed with was the low-to-mid tier stuff... and was rather surprised when he actually put hands and eyes on a Razor.

You're certainly doing the right thing by taking your time with research before purchase. Carry on.
 
Edit: I briefly read about the Burris QC issues. Is the general consensus to avoid XTR Pro for the time being?
I don’t think so, but I am not a scope aficionado like many here. I just want good value and great warranty so I never have to worry about it. I have an XTR-iii 3-18 that I like a lot. I just ordered the new black XTR Pro for my precision rimfire rifle, and I have a Vortex Razor HD sfp scope on my 10/22, along with a couple of Vortex spotters.

After coming to the conclusion that EVERY scope manufacturer has some problems at some time or other, I’ve decided that the best I can do is stick with a decent mfg that backs up their products. I will focus just about all my future scope purchases on the Burris and Vortex products.
 
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I’d look to see if any sites have the old gen ii razor. I bet you can get a hell of a deal for a new optic that way. Maybe eBay? I like mine 4.5-27 ebr7c moa ret.
 
Every manufacturer is in it to make money. As such nearly all have a cheap line some cheaper than others. You can’t compare a companies shit tier items to their flagship items