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Just some equipment thoughts

Mike

Mike

Full Member Inflation
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 8, 2001
3,782
14
Beneath Mount Etna
www.kmprecisionrifletraining.com
and my opinion....

For those of us here who shoot a great deal, and especially those that shoot comps, vendor support is huge. We see vendors step up to the plate, more than once and provide some real nice stuff for the prize tables. I, for one, am very appreciative and try to thank them. Guys like Triad, GAP, Badger, USO, TAB, etc, etc, etc. deserve our business.

There are other companies who sell products and do not choose to provide for prize tables. Or rather try to pass off their weekend local club shoot as a "prize table" donation when it's really just a cop out. These vendors love to take advantage of the community but hesitate to "give back".

They suck.

When you're looking for a product, whether it be a super-custom kick ass rifle or a AICS mag, why aren't you supporting a vendor from the Hide? Why aren't you supporting a vendor who donates prizes to the major matches? Sure, you're on a budget and can't afford "X", then save up a little more. The adage "you get what you pay for" rings true and just because there isn't a big sign that says "I'm better because...." doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate reason.

And even if there ISN'T a legitimate reason, support the vendors that support the matches. Stop being selfish and tell the vendors "thank you" by buying their products. If you're trying to save a few bucks by purchasing from some idiot who ripped off an idea from a guy who worked hard to develop it and who doesn't support the sport, you get what you pay for; and I hope your shit breaks.

Sorry for the rant, just tired of hearing the "it's just as good" crap when many vendors go out of their way to answer the call when incessantly inundated to donate prizes. And some idiots thank them by buying from someone who couldn't care less about the Hide, the community, shooters or anyone but themselves.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And even if there ISN'T a legitimate reason, support the vendors that support the matches. Stop being selfish and tell the vendors "thank you" by buying their products. If you're trying to save a few bucks by purchasing from some idiot who ripped off an idea from a guy who worked hard to develop it and who doesn't support the sport, you get what you pay for; and I hope your shit breaks.
</div></div>

Very well said +1
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and my opinion....

For those of us here who shoot a great deal, and especially those that shoot comps, vendor support is huge. We see vendors step up to the plate, more than once and provide some real nice stuff for the prize tables. I, for one, am very appreciative and try to thank them. Guys like Triad, GAP, Badger, USO, TAB, etc, etc, etc. deserve our business.

There are other companies who sell products and do not choose to provide for prize tables. Or rather try to pass off their weekend local club shoot as a "prize table" donation when it's really just a cop out. These vendors love to take advantage of the community but hesitate to "give back".

They suck.

When you're looking for a product, whether it be a super-custom kick ass rifle or a AICS mag, why aren't you supporting a vendor from the Hide? Why aren't you supporting a vendor who donates prizes to the major matches? Sure, you're on a budget and can't afford "X", then save up a little more. The adage "you get what you pay for" rings true and just because there isn't a big sign that says "I'm better because...." doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate reason.

And even if there ISN'T a legitimate reason, support the vendors that support the matches. Stop being selfish and tell the vendors "thank you" by buying their products. If you're trying to save a few bucks by purchasing from some idiot who ripped off an idea from a guy who worked hard to develop it and who doesn't support the sport, you get what you pay for; and I hope your shit breaks.

Sorry for the rant, just tired of hearing the "it's just as good" crap when many vendors go out of their way to answer the call when incessantly inundated to donate prizes. And some idiots thank them by buying from someone who couldn't care less about the Hide, the community, shooters or anyone but themselves.</div></div>

Bravo, Mike. I agree with everything you've said. Although I've not been around as long as some, those who do know me on here know I wouldn't hesitate in speaking up if I felt differenty.

I have always believed in supporting the little man even if it means paying a little extra rather than give my money to a big box retailer like Midway and although I'm not a comp or pro shooter I like to support those who support the shooting community.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

+1 Mike

I always try to support the vendors even though I may not spend as much as some other members.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Realized this a long time ago, and am religious about this. I've found that vendors who do support prize tables and give back are the same ones who go all out when something goes wrong and you need help. They are the guys who earn your business.

-Paulus
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Mike,

I understand your stance on this completely. As with most things though, there is always other views and opinions. These views are not necessarily mine, but I do think they encompass a large amount of the members here.

I'm fortunate enough not to be one of those folks on a budget in regards to my shooting hobby. However, many are and their concern is to build their rifle or equipment bag as best they can with the funds they have. These people most likely aren't shooting matches, atleast not often, and don't see the select group of vendors who pony up and donate to the prize table. They could care a less about sport support. They want to get the most product for their available funds. This is the society we live in today.

You take a new shooter for example. He wants a DBM for his new Rem 5R. He's already spent most of his budget on the rifle. He sees the Badger DBM for $350 and he sees the exact same product made by Brand X for $149. What do you think he's going to buy? He wants a DBM now, not in 2-3 months. He doesn't care about Badger, most likey knows very little about them. So, from his point of view, can you blame him? All the bullshit that was stirred up over the Atlasworx DBM deal is a perfect example. Yes it's a Badger copy, BUT has anyone had one single issue with one of them as far as function? Any of them broke or failed in any way? Im asking because I don't know. The new shooter looks at it like this: "it's a piece of machined aluminum".....and it is, however Badger wants double the price for their's. Do you think a new guy gives a rip about what Badger has put on prize tables? On another note, why does badger feel thier product is worth $350? It's because people pay that price and don't question it. Obviously Atlasworkx made a decent product for half the cost......and still made a profit to keep them afloat so what are we getting when we pay the extra $150 for the badger? Is that the cost of a warm fuzzy feeling? Why pay twice the price for any item when a equal quality/value item is cheaper? This is Business and its not new. Again, I'm asking because when topics like this get brought up, they are usually squashed by Mod opinion rather than hard facts. This is understandable since many of this companys have supported this site for a long time.....there is feelings of loyalty there and rightfully so, just like GAP. New shooters just don't care what a company has done for this site or the sport. They don't feel obligated to bear that finacial burden. From their standpoint can you blame them?

Shooting at this level is not budget friendly and certainly isn't a poor Man's game. This site in itself is very much a clique. People want to fit in. They want DBM's and NF scopes, and Manners stocks just like all the "cool kids" have. They are going to acquire these items, or items like the cool ones, at the cheapest place possible. They are going to think of themselves and their own wants before they worry about always supporting a Hide vendor. No rant is ever going to change that. Yes, this is a problem, but on a much larger scale than just what we are discussing here.

Lastly, and this is my own thoughts and opinions here, the Vendors on this site certainly aren't starving to death. GAP is producing more rifles than ever. Triad and CS Tacticle are both growing. Liberty Optics opened a brick and mortar storefront. Badger, well I doubt he's having any problems paying his bills. Seekins has been growing by leaps and bounds with new products all the time. Manners has showed growth since the word go. All these vendors benefit greatly from this site.....from us. Yes, they donate both time and product towards the sport, but they are getting it back on a grand scale. I support most of these vendors as much as I possibly can if they are offering a product I want at the time. I enjoy supporting these vendors especially when i feel like they are offering a good product at a fair price. Will I buy another Badger DMB new? No, I won't. Will I continue to buy Manners stocks, certainly. Will I pick up a Badger used in the classifieds at a fair price, ofcourse.

Again, I see your point 100%, but most people on avarage just dont care. Someone just the other day posted on here that China steals our work because Americans are greedy. I agree whole heartedly. This isn't about "Buy American" so let's not even get off on that shit, but the greedy part is true.

I'm not tryin to offend you or anyone else, but I'm just saying what alot of folks are thinking, but too scared to speak up. Your certeinly not wrong in your opinion, atleast I don't think you are, but as you well know.....opinions vary.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I don't shoot comps so I can't speak on the "prize table" aspect but I do appreciate that I can log on to the Hide and get pretty reliable info on just about any piece of shooting equipment I want info on. I have realized there is a "clique" just like trevor said full of people using the same or similar gear. But the way I look at it is these vendors, dealers, manufacturers, etc. are all being used and talked about for a reason. Bad vendors get bad reviews and good ones get the thumbs up. I see it everyday and I love it. It is the market (us) weeding out the bad seeds and helping out the vendors who deserve it.

That being said...who cares if xyzsniper83 buys a knock off stock?
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

With anything in life, if I can support a company who shares my beliefs or passions and supports those, I patronize their business whenever possible. Be it my local Ace Hardware or the vendors I have found trolling around here since last Sept.
One thing that impresses the shit out of me around here with the vendors is they are active in the forums. I see George and Ken on here from GA Precision. I see Triad, and Mile High represented on here. That shit is nice! Every vendor I have contacted from here with some dumbass noobish question has been patient and helpful with me as well.
I haven't been around long, but I have been around long enough to appreciate the shit out of what these guys bring to the table around here as far as support, quality products, and service after the sale. If I can drop a buck at one the Hide vendors I damn sure will!
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike,

I understand your stance on this completely. As with most things though, there is always other views and opinions. These views are not necessarily mine, but I do think they encompass a large amount of the members here.

I'm fortunate enough not to be one of those folks on a budget in regards to my shooting hobby. However, many are and their concern is to build their rifle or equipment bag as best they can with the funds they have. These people most likely aren't shooting matches, atleast not often, and don't see the select group of vendors who pony up and donate to the prize table. They could care a less about sport support. They want to get the most product for their available funds. This is the society we live in today.

You take a new shooter for example. He wants a DBM for his new Rem 5R. He's already spent most of his budget on the rifle. He sees the Badger DBM for $350 and he sees the exact same product made by Brand X for $149. What do you think he's going to buy? He wants a DBM now, not in 2-3 months. He doesn't care about Badger, most likey knows very little about them. So, from his point of view, can you blame him? All the bullshit that was stirred up over the Atlasworx DBM deal is a perfect example. Yes it's a Badger copy, BUT has anyone had one single issue with one of them as far as function? Any of them broke or failed in any way? Im asking because I don't know. The new shooter looks at it like this: "it's a piece of machined aluminum".....and it is, however Badger wants double the price for their's. Do you think a new guy gives a rip about what Badger has put on prize tables? On another note, why does badger feel thier product is worth $350? It's because people pay that price and don't question it. Obviously Atlasworkx made a decent product for half the cost......and still made a profit to keep them afloat so what are we getting when we pay the extra $150 for the badger? Is that the cost of a warm fuzzy feeling? Why pay twice the price for any item when a equal quality/value item is cheaper? This is Business and its not new. Again, I'm asking because when topics like this get brought up, they are usually squashed by Mod opinion rather than hard facts. This is understandable since many of this companys have supported this site for a long time.....there is feelings of loyalty there and rightfully so, just like GAP. New shooters just don't care what a company has done for this site or the sport. They don't feel obligated to bear that finacial burden. From their standpoint can you blame them?

Shooting at this level is not budget friendly and certainly isn't a poor Man's game. This site in itself is very much a clique. People want to fit in. They want DBM's and NF scopes, and Manners stocks just like all the "cool kids" have. They are going to acquire these items, or items like the cool ones, at the cheapest place possible. They are going to think of themselves and their own wants before they worry about always supporting a Hide vendor. No rant is ever going to change that. Yes, this is a problem, but on a much larger scale than just what we are discussing here.

Lastly, and this is my own thoughts and opinions here, the Vendors on this site certainly aren't starving to death. GAP is producing more rifles than ever. Triad and CS Tacticle are both growing. Liberty Optics opened a brick and mortar storefront. Badger, well I doubt he's having any problems paying his bills. Seekins has been growing by leaps and bounds with new products all the time. Manners has showed growth since the word go. All these vendors benefit greatly from this site.....from us. Yes, they donate both time and product towards the sport, but they are getting it back on a grand scale. I support most of these vendors as much as I possibly can if they are offering a product I want at the time. I enjoy supporting these vendors especially when i feel like they are offering a good product at a fair price. Will I buy another Badger DMB new? No, I won't. Will I continue to buy Manners stocks, certainly. Will I pick up a Badger used in the classifieds at a fair price, ofcourse.

Again, I see your point 100%, but most people on avarage just dont care. Someone just the other day posted on here that China steals our work because Americans are greedy. I agree whole heartedly. This isn't about "Buy American" so let's not even get off on that shit, but the greedy part is true.

I'm not tryin to offend you or anyone else, but I'm just saying what alot of folks are thinking, but too scared to speak up. Your certeinly not wrong in your opinion, atleast I don't think you are, but as you well know.....opinions vary. </div></div>

Brother, as an owner of one of these US Businesses that concentrates on the Snipers Hide type market, like Badger does, I will bet you no one made much money last year doing military sales. My business barely survived last year with military sales being crummy. Plus we have some real good competition these days, in slings, bases, rings and other products. The market share is small and costs keep going up.

You talk of greedy Americans jacking prices up, well let me tell you the Greedy American Co's are the ones who Off Shore there products. Those of us making stuff here have very small profit margins compared to those that off shore. The day I feel I have to off shore is the day I quit and do something else for a living.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<span style="color: #3333FF">Trevor,
You make some very valid points. ..Some I agree with and some I feel differently. Also, let me iterate here that nothing I say in reply is directed at you personally. </span>

I understand your stance on this completely. As with most things though, there is always other views and opinions. These views are not necessarily mine, but I do think they encompass a large amount of the members here.

I’m ok with varying opinions, it’s what makes the world go around.
I'm fortunate enough not to be one of those folks on a budget in regards to my shooting hobby. However, many are and their concern is to build their rifle or equipment bag as best they can with the funds they have. These people most likely aren't shooting matches, atleast not often, and don't see the select group of vendors who pony up and donate to the prize table. They could care a less about sport support. They want to get the most product for their available funds. This is the society we live in today.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
I agree here but feel this slightly misses the point. For example, if I’m getting an inexpensive scope, let’s say <$500. There are many Hide vendors who sell inexpensive scopes. I don’t need to buy an S&B or spend a lot of money to support a vendor. Another example would be a stock pack. The price between one and another may be only a couple of bucks. Is it worth a couple of bucks to support a Hide vendor?</span>

You take a new shooter for example. He wants a DBM for his new Rem 5R. He's already spent most of his budget on the rifle. He sees the Badger DBM for $350 and he sees the exact same product made by Brand X for $149. What do you think he's going to buy? He wants a DBM now, not in 2-3 months. He doesn't care about Badger, most likey knows very little about them. So, from his point of view, can you blame him?

<span style="color: #3333FF">No, I can’t blame him at all…but, I can protest when he comes along and says “my ‘X’ is just as good as your “Y” because I say so”. If you’re on a budget and can only afford what you can afford, I’m OK with that. I’m not OK with trying to justify your purchase by condemning other purchases as if the more expensive purchase was the result of being “taken”. Secondarily, there are vendor choices for bottom metal too.</span>

All the bullshit that was stirred up over the Atlasworx DBM deal is a perfect example. Yes it's a Badger copy, BUT has anyone had one single issue with one of them as far as function? Any of them broke or failed in any way? Im asking because I don't know. The new shooter looks at it like this: "it's a piece of machined aluminum".....and it is, however Badger wants double the price for their's. Do you think a new guy gives a rip about what Badger has put on prize tables?

<span style="color: #3333FF">I wasn’t necessarily thinking of the Atlasworx incident but it brings up a point. Can we as a society blame Walmart or any other store that sells a Chinese copy of American made products when we condone what amounts to “theft” by purchasing blatantly ripped off products? They may be the best thing in the world but they still ripped of Badger’s design and that’s not OK in my book. Make some kind of design change and call it your own and then rock it.</span>

On another note, why does badger feel thier product is worth $350? It's because people pay that price and don't question it. Obviously Atlasworkx made a decent product for half the cost......and still made a profit to keep them afloat so what are we getting when we pay the extra $150 for the badger? Is that the cost of a warm fuzzy feeling? Why pay twice the price for any item when a equal quality/value item is cheaper? This is Business and its not new.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
I can’t answer for Marty. I don’t know why he charges what he does. I don’t know how he justifies his pricing. But I do know that I feel in our capitalist society he can do what he wants as long as customers are willing to support him. If he gets too high, people won’t buy it. There are ample DBM’s that are not direct copies that can be had instead. Most, if not all, are of equal quality. So we can “vote” with our wallet. Now how much does the good will cost? I think that may be dependent on each individual shooter. But I think you can agree that there MUST be a value associated with vendor support.</span>

Again, I'm asking because when topics like this get brought up, they are usually squashed by Mod opinion rather than hard facts. This is understandable since many of this companys have supported this site for a long time.....there is feelings of loyalty there and rightfully so, just like GAP. New shooters just don't care what a company has done for this site or the sport. They don't feel obligated to bear that finacial burden. From their standpoint can you blame them?
<span style="color: #3333FF">
First, I didn’t make my post as a mod. I made it as an active member and comp shooter. Your statement here seems to me a type of “have my cake and eat it too” mentality on behalf of the new shooters. This site has grown for many reasons and I would venture to say almost all the vendors that have been around for a long time struggled very hard to succeed making difficult sacrifices. Now when a new generation of shooter comes along and says “I don’t give a shit”, it shows a very divisive attitude. Should all the hard work be thrust to the side and out of consideration just because his business is finally starting to grow? New shooters should at least be shown most of these vendors aren’t fly-by-night companies and have earned their business.</span>

Shooting at this level is not budget friendly and certainly isn't a poor Man's game. This site in itself is very much a clique. People want to fit in. They want DBM's and NF scopes, and Manners stocks just like all the "cool kids" have. They are going to acquire these items, or items like the cool ones, at the cheapest place possible. They are going to think of themselves and their own wants before they worry about always supporting a Hide vendor. No rant is ever going to change that. Yes, this is a problem, but on a much larger scale than just what we are discussing here.

<span style="color: #3333FF">I see what you’re saying here but I believe you might be missing my point. Let’s say for example you want a scope. You know nothing about optics and you don’t even have a defined budget yet. “John Doe” from “This Optics Company” steps up and says “give me a call, I’ll walk you through everything and you can make a decision”. Takes time out of his day, or evening, or family time, to try and teach you or at least narrow your choices and put you in the right direction. You decide on a scope that “This Optics Company” is a distributor for however his prices are 10% higher than other companies that sell the same scope. Was his time and customer service worth that additional 10%? As I said earlier we each have our price we will put on “good wil” but my immediate answer would be yes. </span>

Lastly, and this is my own thoughts and opinions here, the Vendors on this site certainly aren't starving to death. GAP is producing more rifles than ever. Triad and CS Tacticle are both growing. Liberty Optics opened a brick and mortar storefront. Badger, well I doubt he's having any problems paying his bills. Seekins has been growing by leaps and bounds with new products all the time. Manners has showed growth since the word go. All these vendors benefit greatly from this site.....from us. Yes, they donate both time and product towards the sport, but they are getting it back on a grand scale.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Yes, many of these companies are thriving and in my opinion good on them. Because I do know that many of them struggled and ONLY survived because they were here and really took great care of us. And like you and I and many that we know who believe in a good day’s pay for a good day’s work they are finally allowed to reap the benefits of their hard work. We still have the choice to not purchase from them which brings me to my next point…..</span>

I support most of these vendors as much as I possibly can if they are offering a product I want at the time. I enjoy supporting these vendors especially when i feel like they are offering a good product at a fair price. Will I buy another Badger DMB new? No, I won't. Will I continue to buy Manners stocks, certainly. Will I pick up a Badger used in the classifieds at a fair price, ofcourse.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Although I named particular vendors in my initial post, those are not our only choices. For example if you don’t want to buy a new BO DBM, you may buy a Seekins, or someone else. But shouldn’t that “someone else” be a hide vendor? Stocks are another great example. I love Manner’s stocks. But if you don’t want one or can’t afford one there are a litany of other stocks available. You can purchase one of those and yet still be supporting a Hide vendor. </span>

Again, I see your point 100%, but most people on avarage just dont care. Someone just the other day posted on here that China steals our work because Americans are greedy. I agree whole heartedly. This isn't about "Buy American" so let's not even get off on that shit, but the greedy part is true. I'm not tryin to offend you or anyone else, but I'm just saying what alot of folks are thinking, but too scared to speak up. Your certeinly not wrong in your opinion, atleast I don't think you are, but as you well know.....opinions vary.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
I somewhat agree here. I am frustrated at many American workers and the entitlement mentality they have. With that being said, I don’t think the answer lies in the blatant slave labor and human rights abuses utilized by the Chinese to get their prices so low. It’s expensive to ship crap from China and to think they ship it here, charge a very low price, and still make a profit tells us their “overhead”, i.e. labor cost, is rock bottom. But that's for another discussion.

I respect your post and the time you took to present a legitimate position. All of our opinions vary and there are shades of grey for everything. We all have the power to “vote” with our wallets and I feel we should “vote” for Hide vendors when it’s feasible given a choice.</span>
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I just bought a Atlas BT10 bipod along with its spiked feet and the mounting hardware from Triad Tactical. Supporting the Hide Vendor's is awesome becuase they give back to the shooting community.

Heath
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Is there a list of hide vendors somewhere? I just looked for a few minutes and couldn't find one. I'm the budget guy. Allways try to support hide vendors and my local shops (not many left).
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I agree with Trevor300WSM. I was thinking of a way to say the same thing without getting pulled into a shit storm.

I love to shoot. I don't shoot competitions. Even if I did, the chances of me ever shooting at a comp where any hide vendor actually puts a prize on the table is slim to none. Honestly I'm not impressed by that so much. Don't get me wrong .... it's nice that they do it. But, they do it because it's cheap advertising for that company. They do it because it will get them more customers (for the cost of the prize on the table) than if they were spend the same money on advertising. Now, I have no probelm with this. But, lets call it what it is.

I would be more impressed and would buy from hide vendors exclusively if they were to give some kind of discount to hide members. I'm retired military. I usually buy from the stores that give a military discount and they get my loyalty first. And, that's the store I recommend to all my friends. It's an incentive for the buyer.

On my most recent purchase, I passed on buying from a hide vendor because his shipping/handling cost were 2-3 times higher than anyone else. So, I took my business elsewhere ..... for that reason alone. The product cost about the same at every other vendor. So, whey the extra shipping or "HANDLING" cost. The vendor is already making profit from the price they are selling the item for. Why squeeze out a couple more bucks with excessive shipping costs?? How about just charging what actaul shipping costs?? That would have made me buy from that particular hide member. While I was checking out, I was fully prepared to buy from that vendor until they added the shipping costs. Seems like the person that makes out the best from buying from a hide vendor (most of the time) ..... is the vendor.

Now, I completely understand that the hide vendors also need to eat. And, they run a business and would like as much business as they can get. And, of course they are going to charge what people are willing to pay. But for someone to actually come on here and chastize the other hide members for not buying from hide vendors is distasteful and really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You want loyalty to the hide vendors from the hide members? Than have the vendors show the hide members a little loyalty. The you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours principle.

Why does Badger charge $350 for thier DBM??? That's simple ..... because you (the people) let them. I won't pay that for a DBM. If more people DIDN'T pay that price ...... they wouldn't charge that much for it. We ... you ... the shooters are the ones that allow Badger charge that much for a DBM. Think about it. I can buy an AR15 upper, lower, lower parts kit and a magazine for that price. And, there is alot more machining involved.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now, I completely understand that the hide vendors also need to eat. And, they run a business and would like as much business as they can get. And, of course they are going to charge what people are willing to pay. But for someone to actually come on here and chastize the other hide members for not buying from hide vendors is distasteful and really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You want loyalty to the hide vendors from the hide members? Than have the vendors show the hide members a little loyalty. The you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours principle.
</div></div>

You see Mutt, my post wasn't for you. You're the "lone wolf" type of shooter that my post wasn't meant for. You have your kit and you'll shoot at your local range and buy Chinese knock off crap and be happy, and that's fine. You've come along to the Hide not that long ago and benefit from the hard work and dedication that was put in place by others before you got here. Now you want to reap the benefits without giving anything back; and that's your prerogative. But for those of us that do go to comps, and spend a lot of money to get there and compete, it's nice to have prizes to "shoot for" to reward our effort, or rather make us feel like we came away with "something". Sure, the prizes are advertising for the vendors, but really it's about the only advertising that's even available to them. Where else are they going to go? Field and Stream? Outdoor Life? No, they sell tactical gear and need to direct it to the tactical community. Whether you want to admit it or not, we are the tactical long range community for civilians and military. I guarantee this site is read by EVERYONE out there. They laugh, they scoff, they learn...but they're here.

Now up until a few years ago this site had more military than civilian and although this is no longer the case, the military "style" of competitions still reign supreme here. Active duty military recognize these competitions are actually beneficial and reinforce much of their training.

So for vendors and competitors alike it's a win/win. Vendors get their products exposed, competitors get to use and see new products.

Now I recognize your opinion and welcome any dialogue you want to share but to say me expressing my opinion is "distasteful" then perhaps this site isn't for you. After all, I am willing to bet many more (competitors) feel the way I do than not.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

For starters ..... who says I was buying chinese knock off crap? The recent purchase I speak of was for an Accu-shot Monopod. How is that chinese crap. I wanted to buy a monopod and figured I didn't need to spend 30 more dollars to get it from a hide vendor. So, I bought the monopod from someone else. And got it for less. So, how is that buying cheap chinese knock-off crap????

You speak of competitors, but the vast majority of hide members are not competitors. The reason most of the vendors pay the price to advertise on the hide, is because of the number of people that utilize the site. If the vast majority of non competitors that utilize this site all disappeared, then it wouldn't be as popular a place for the vendors to advertise, and some of them may not choose to pay the price to advertise here. So, it's because so many people like me coming here .... that you get to have a prize on your table to begin with. You should be thanking us.

So, basicallly you are telling me to pay more for an item, just to support a hide vendor, so they will put a free item on the table for YOU ..... at your next match????????? What have you done for ME lately ..... LOL.

If this post was not meant for me ...... then why did you post it here?? This is my site (and ever other members) as much as it is yours. So basically you are saying that since you shoot competitions, then you are a better hide member than everyone else on here??? Aren't we an arrogant prick????

As for your opinion ...... well, I respect your OP and the opinion your stated. You are free to come here and voice your opinion. But, I decided to post my opinion ...... of your opinion. If you can't take that or don't like it .... then you may want to refrain from posting up your opinion for all to read in the future. I was respectfull and didn't attack you personally. So would appreciate you do the same.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I would imagine if you had built relationships with many of the vendors here, that you could get the best deal here.

That has been my experience. Once you buy stuff from them, repeatedly, over time, they are usually more than willing to make sure you get your best deal from them.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

For starters ..... who says I was buying chinese knock off crap? The recent purchase I speak of was for an Accu-shot Monopod. How is that chinese crap. I wanted to buy a monopod and figured I didn't need to spend 30 more dollars to get it from a hide vendor. So, I bought the monopod from someone else. And got it for less. So, how is that buying cheap chinese knock-off crap????
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Whatever you’re buying, an Accu-shot monopod? There are many vendors, including Kasey himself, that are Hide vendors and sell the Accu-shot. So you went to someone else rather than one of the (more than one) vendors who sell it here on the Hide? That's exactly my point. I'm sure the vendors here who you didn't buy from are happy to hear you went to a non-Hide vendor. If you bought it from a Hide vendor than what's the issue?</span>

You speak of competitors, but the vast majority of hide members are not competitors. The reason most of the vendors pay the price to advertise on the hide, is because of the number of people that utilize the site.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Vendors for the longest time weren’t “paid” vendors. Lowlight, for years, allowed people to sell stuff here commercially. Primarily because the vendors were members trying to improve on products or do something to promote the community on the side. It wasn’t until after the gross influx of vendors whos sole purpose was to come take advantage of the membership that Lowlight started differentiating vendors. Most of the people that utilize the site have been here for a long time. And as far as not being competitors, that’s funny because of the dozens of competitions that are advertised here many sell out within minutes of registration starting. For not being competitors there are certainly a lot willing to compete. I would be interested to see which members either shoots some form of competition or would if given the opportunity . I would venture to say the percentage would be quite high.</span>

If the vast majority of non competitors that utilize this site all disappeared, then it wouldn't be as popular a place for the vendors to advertise, and some of them may not choose to pay the price to advertise here. So, it's because so many people like me coming here .... that you get to have a prize on your table to begin with. You should be thanking us.

<span style="color: #3333FF">I disagree. If the non competitors disappeared (and as I said I think competitors-or rather those that would like to compete-are the majority). Worse case scenario is the vendors go back to working part time in the garage rather than full time. Besides the momentum is now built to the point the competitors and military would keep a majority, if not the more tenured vendors around. Also remember It’s a popular place for people to come to get information. Information that is gathered from experience. Where does that experience come from? Vendors who give stuff away know there stuff is going to get used and abused for what it was designed for; not to sit pretty on someone’s shelf. The severe use will bring out the pros and cons and changes/improvements can be made. </span>

So, basicallly you are telling me to pay more for an item, just to support a hide vendor, so they will put a free item on the table for YOU ..... at your next match????????? What have you done for ME lately ..... LOL.

<span style="color: #3333FF">No, I’m saying support Hide vendors so they stay around for all of us. Ever hear of innovation? How do you think products get improved? Tell me, where are you going to get your items when vendors go away? Bass Pro Shops? </span>

If this post was not meant for me ...... then why did you post it here?? This is my site (and ever other members) as much as it is yours.

<span style="color: #3333FF">I can’t create an individual post for every unique member. It was meant for the shooters who were the original type of members here, for the tactical marksman. And this isn’t “your” site or every other members here. This is Lowlight’s site. You are allowed to post here and because you can doesn’t mean everyone has an equal voice. Arrogant and condescending? Too bad, it’s the truth. </span>

So basically you are saying that since you shoot competitions, then you are a better hide member than everyone else on here??? <span style="font-weight: bold">Aren't we an arrogant prick????</span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Yes, I am an arrogant prick, but not because I shoot competitions. But this is not the Soviet Union and some members contribute more than others. Others just sponge off the site and don’t contribute anything in a positive manner.</span>

As for your opinion ...... well, I respect your OP and the opinion your stated. You are free to come here and voice your opinion. But, I decided to post my opinion ...... of your opinion. If you can't take that or don't like it .... then you may want to refrain from posting up your opinion for all to read in the future.
I was respectfull and didn't attack you personally. So would appreciate you do the same.

<span style="color: #3333FF">So when you called me distasteful and my opinion “leaves a bad taste in your mouth” that wasn’t attacking me personally? Or calling me an arrogant prick isn’t attacking me personally? Perhaps you should practice what you preach?
I will continue to post my opinion and post my rebuttal to any responses. No one forced you to opine on my post so when you do, expect a response. If you think you're going to prevent me from posting, you're not.</span>
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I'm not a pro shooter, nor do I shoot comps so frankly speaking I could really care less who or what lands on the prize table since I'm not going to see it one way or the other.

My reason for supporting Hide vendors is twofold. First because of the overwhelming amount of first hand information that can be found here on any given piece of kit sold by Hide vendors and secondly because of the customer service aspect of it.

I'm not rich and therefore I realize that money doesn't grow on trees. That being said, I want the best bang I can get for my dollar. And that goes beyond the piece of gear that is being sought. Like the OP stated, you're also paying for the vendors time, expertise, advice, knowledge and commitment to you after the sale is processed. What's the vendor going to do 5 months after the fact when I run into an issue with a piece of gear that he sold me? Is he gonna blow me off or going to do the right thing? That to me, is worth WAY more than any discount, prize table and sometimes the piece of gear itself.

Commitment, and loyalty after the sale is what keeps the customer coming back. At least as far as I'm concerned.

So far, since my time on this site, I've done business with Borka, Atlas, Triad, GAP, Storm Tactical, Liberty Optics and RedTacGear, just to name a few. I specifically sought these guys out because of their positive reviews from other members here and because in part they make this website possible with their sponsorship. Glad I did because in every instance they've lived up to their standard and should the need ever arise, I'll be paying them another visit.

That being said, I see a lot of hesitation from members when they want to voice a dissenting opinion in a topic such as this. Lots of posts are prefaced with disclaimers almost as if not to piss off the "good ole boys" or the cliques that exists among the ranks. Difference of opinion is a good thing and its what makes us strong. No one should be afraid to say what they think just because it goes against the grain.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Any word on the Vendor List? I can't find one. Would be nice to know who they all are so I can support them!
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lots of posts are prefaced with disclaimers almost as if not to piss off the "good ole boys" or the cliques that exists among the ranks. Difference of opinion is a good thing and its what makes us strong. No one should be afraid to say what they think just because it goes against the grain.
</div></div>

Slapchop, I take no issue with your post but have to ask you why do members hesitate to say anything? Who are the "good ole boys" or the "cliques"? Who do they consist of and who have they excluded? I, for one (and many can attest to this), will state my opinion and address any counterpoint as I've done here. My opinion may not be popular but I don't prevent others from expressing theirs. Now if your belief of me expressing a rebuttal to another's post is keeping someone from expressing their opinion, then I'm not sure what a discussion/argument is?

I encourage others to express their opinion.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

This thread can pertain to any hobby/sport. Yes there are those that are out to make money off the hobby/sport with that being their only goal. Then there are the vendors that want to grow the sport as well. I'am fortunate enough to be able to try different platforms and see what works or me. Whenever I go to a public range I'am happy to let others try out whatever rig I have. It gives people perspective and sometimes allow you to shoot something you may never have gotten a chance to try. What I like and what the the trend is,sometimes don't jive. Reagardless,if I like it I'm gonna tell others my thoughts. I don't shoot comps but do enjoy shooting somewhat long range as well as all other aspects of shooting sports. I've learned more on this site than I could learn in 5 years of shooting. I've met more good people and have learned more from them than can be told. I've traveled 1800 miles (more than once) to shoot with people I've only chatted with on this site. My wife thinks I'm nuts to do it. There are plenty of vocal people on here. Don't be afraid to say what you feel or like. I support those vendors on here and have found them to be more than fair even when compared to the big box stores. You learn more by trying out the equipment you can afford and upgrade as you go along. You and only you know what you can afford and what you like.Everyone has their favorites. It doesn't hurt to try multiple vendors from the hide to spread the wealth. By trying them,you too will have favorites and talk them up. Like anything else,what goes around comes around. my .02
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lots of posts are prefaced with disclaimers almost as if not to piss off the "good ole boys" or the cliques that exists among the ranks. Difference of opinion is a good thing and its what makes us strong. No one should be afraid to say what they think just because it goes against the grain.
</div></div>

Slapchop, I take no issue with your post but have to ask you why do members hesitate to say anything? Who are the "good ole boys" or the "cliques"? Who do they consist of and who have they excluded? I, for one (and many can attest to this), will state my opinion and address any counterpoint as I've done here. My opinion may not be popular but I don't prevent others from expressing theirs. Now if your belief of me expressing a rebuttal to another's post is keeping someone from expressing their opinion, then I'm not sure what a discussion/argument is?

I encourage others to express their opinion. </div></div>

Mike it's nothing against you or your post at all. As someone who many a times has an unpopular opinion on here ('I'm talking about myself), I can appreciate your candor and frankness. I prefer that as opposed to someone blowing smoke up my ass.

As far as my remarks about cliques and a good ole boys atmosphere goes, there is no denying it. Just the other day, I read a 4 page thread in which a poster got hammered because he said that he had opted to build his own AR-10 as opposed to buying a GAP-10. The guy said he believed he could shoot just as well with his home brew as he could with the GAP-10. Might not be the most accurate statement but I don't think that he deserved to be insulted, mocked and made fun of. The guy is an enthusiast who took a different route, whether it be because of financial issues or he wanted to learn somethings on his own. I just didn't see why people were chastising this guy. Guys are always saying how we need more shooters and that we need to expand and bring more people into the sport. Making fun of a guys shit isn't the way to go about it. If anything it just turns people off to the site and the sport. Not everyone has thick skin like you or I.

Not the first time I've seen that here. Certain, smiths or manufactures have a following and at times if someone goes against these guys or says something negative they get flogged by the fanboys. It's almost as though there is a "these guys can do no wrong and even if they do, you better not talk about it" attitude.

I think shit like that might intimidate some people into NOT voicing their opinions. That is evident by the number of disclaimers that preface some posts.

Again, dude this isn't directed at you but those that are guilty of it know who they are.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lots of posts are prefaced with disclaimers almost as if not to piss off the "good ole boys" or the cliques that exists among the ranks. Difference of opinion is a good thing and its what makes us strong. No one should be afraid to say what they think just because it goes against the grain.
</div></div>

Slapchop, I take no issue with your post but have to ask you why do members hesitate to say anything? Who are the "good ole boys" or the "cliques"? Who do they consist of and who have they excluded? I, for one (and many can attest to this), will state my opinion and address any counterpoint as I've done here. My opinion may not be popular but I don't prevent others from expressing theirs. Now if your belief of me expressing a rebuttal to another's post is keeping someone from expressing their opinion, then I'm not sure what a discussion/argument is?

I encourage others to express their opinion. </div></div>

Mike it's nothing against you or your post at all. As someone who many a times has an unpopular opinion on here ('I'm talking about myself), I can appreciate your candor and frankness. I prefer that as opposed to someone blowing smoke up my ass.

As far as my remarks about cliques and a good ole boys atmosphere goes, there is no denying it. Just the other day, I read a 4 page thread in which a poster got hammered because he said that he had opted to build his own AR-10 as opposed to buying a GAP-10. The guy said he believed he could shoot just as well with his home brew as he could with the GAP-10. <span style="font-weight: bold">Might not be the most accurate statement but I don't think that he deserved to be insulted, mocked and made fun of. The guy is an enthusiast who took a different route, whether it be because of financial issues or he wanted to learn somethings on his own. I just didn't see why people were chastising this guy. Guys are always saying how we need more shooters and that we need to expand and bring more people into the sport. Making fun of a guys shit isn't the way to go about it. If anything it just turns people off to the site and the sport. Not everyone has thick skin like you or I.</span>

Not the first time I've seen that here. Certain, smiths or manufactures have a following and at times if someone goes against these guys or says something negative they get flogged by the fanboys. It's almost as though there is a "these guys can do no wrong and even if they do, you better not talk about it" attitude.

I think shit like that might intimidate some people into NOT voicing their opinions. That is evident by the number of disclaimers that preface some posts.

Again, dude this isn't directed at you but those that are guilty of it know who they are.</div></div>

I have been guilty of that and it's something I need and <span style="font-style: italic">I am</span> working on.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I just bought my mono from Kasey, it was a great way to go, thanked him for supporting the Hide as well.
My rifle is at GAP as we speak, though it has been 2-3 times the time I was quoted, still no word... I wanted the work done right, I trust they were the correct choice based off of this site and the information I've gathered.

I could have got the mono for less, but why, as a college student that is unemployed, I'll forgo drinking and support a vendor and participating member of the site.
Same thing for GAP, I can give up x to get y, it's all about the opportunity costs.

For my recent scope purchase, I went with opticsplanet, I don't know if they are a vendor here, but they support another forum I'm on and have been great to me.

So, in some sense, I agree with Mike, but, I have previously developed relationships that I will remain true to as well.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I would like to add that I have bought from hide vendors in the past and probably will in the future. I'm not a "hide vendor hater". I just don't like the .... buy from a hide vendor or else, even if it cost more to do so .... attitude some people have (not pointing fingers).


I find "over quoting" distasteful too ..... LOL. And, being told I don't belong on this site just because I won't support your prize table. You are 100% correct, this site does belong to lowlight. I'll leave when/if he tells me too. Not because you say so. And, I'll continue to post on here as I wish (within the rules) regardless of how you feel about it. If you say something I don't like, I'll tell you I don't like it.

Being "arrogant and condescending" (your words not mine) isn't really helping to sell your point. Your making slapchop's point for him.

I'm not going to argue with you. It wouldn't do any good anyway. I just pointed out that I didn't like your OP and I'll spend my money as I see fit. You couldn't seem to handle that and got nasty. If you don't want people to post thier opinion (about what you said) as they see fit, then write your opinion in a blog instead of an open forum. Otherwise, you're going to have to take the good with the bad.


I will leave your thread now. You made your point I made mine. Later.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

This site has never been about stomping on the guy with an idea, or making his own equipment and improving his weapons. It has always supported new ideas and helped bring new products to markets. I have also seen professionals help guys build,repair or improve thier own equipment many times.

It has not been about supporting the thieves who steal others ideas and hard work and make said copies for cheaper because they have no associated costs with developing products.

As to being "Fan Boys" well if a guy who helps everyone is attacked and I say knock it off makes me a fan boy, so be it
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I would like to add that I have bought from hide vendors in the past and probably will in the future. I'm not a "hide vendor hater". I just don't like the .... buy from a hide vendor or else, even if it cost more to do so .... attitude some people have (not pointing fingers).

<span style="color: #3333FF">No one said buy from a hide vendor or else. All that was said is if you're going to buy, try and make a Hide vendor your first choice. And how much more it costs is relevant. $5-$10 more may be worth the good will and ability to get additional customer service/help beyond the sale.</span>


I find "over quoting" distasteful too ..... LOL. And, being told I don't belong on this site just because I won't support your prize table. You are 100% correct, this site does belong to lowlight. I'll leave when/if he tells me too. Not because you say so. And, I'll continue to post on here as I wish (within the rules) regardless of how you feel about it. If you say something I don't like, I'll tell you I don't like it.

<span style="color: #3333FF">"Don't take this the wrong way" but you're starting to sound a bit like a "drama queen". First, I never said you didn't "belong on this site because you don't support a prize table". Second, you will leave if you post something that is not congruent with the rules or our "interpretation of the spirit of the hid"e and finally, you're more than welcome to say something I don't like. But be prepared to get it "right back".</span>

Being "arrogant and condescending" (your words not mine) isn't really helping to sell your point. Your making slapchop's point for him.

<span style="color: #3333FF">People who know me know I go out of my way to help people, especially in a face to face situation with new/learning shooters. You may not like what I have to say but you get it all up front with no question on where I stand</span>

I'm not going to argue with you.

<span style="color: #3366FF">yet you continue to</span>

It wouldn't do any good anyway. I just pointed out that I didn't like your OP and I'll spend my money as I see fit. You couldn't seem to handle that and got nasty.

<span style="color: #3366FF">Did I get nasty before or after you called me "distasteful" and an "arrogant prick"?</span>

If you don't want people to post thier opinion (about what you said) as they see fit, then write your opinion in a blog instead of an open forum. Otherwise, you're going to have to take the good with the bad.

<span style="color: #3366FF">I'm more than happy to take the good with the bad and I've been around to block enough to know that when I make a "controversial" post, it's going to get responses. But on that same note, don't think that just because you don't agree with me and want to take the time to opine doesn't mean I'm going to tuck my tail between my legs and let your response go unanswered.</span>


I will leave your thread now. You made your point I made mine. Later.

Thanks
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Mike,

I have no idea what your business relationship is to this site (if any), yet even though I have been here a very short time I too already feel a vested interest.
This site has personal value as it offers depth of experience and perspective that is unavailable anywhere else.

So if I might, allow me offer a business man's perspective on things.
I think you are looking at the shooting event support problem as it currently exists rather than offering creative business solutions as to how things might be.

You also need to consider who you are dealing with and what my motivations are. As a hard ass business owner my primary concern is money in and money out and these days we business owners are bleeding desperately. I count and account for every dime and I am alive today because I am a hard ass competition killing mother fucker, yet 3 of my 4 businesses are experiencing some form of issues. By the end of this year people (that I consider family) will go home for good.
Until you have sat on my side you cannot imagine how that feels.

Despite the uneducated sentiments of none business folk here thinking Badger or others are striking it rich...Well, there is just no Goddamned way they are. I have equipment sitting in warehouses and people sitting at home that are fully capable of building this stuff and I wouldn’t touch what these great businesses do with a 10 foot pole. Margins are extremely competitive in that business and I do not know how they make ends meet. Kudos and props to those guys! Not only do they make a exceptional product they back it up with outstanding service.
First class and I tip my hat.

So be well advised that (with the economy as it is) if you approach me looking for money and support you better do it with a mission and you better have a plan on how to help me succeed. Show up without the above and expect me to tell you not to bang your head on the way out the door. What else did you think would happen?

Pretend I am a SH vendor:
You call me wanting support for your shoot.
First question (whether you are asked of you or not) is always what is my upside?
Did I not already pay for the SH vendors account?
Where there support expectations tied to this account (probably not?). Now you want to beat on me for not supporting some nameless shoot that my customers don't give a shit about? You did read that above comment right? If you think I missed that comment you seriously underestimate me. I know my buyers. It is my life. If you want to know about my buyers you should ask ME.

Kind of gets interesting from there...
SH vendor:
Of the guys at your shoot how many buyers are there? That's right...They already have what they need so pretty much nothing (or next to it). What is my product exposure? Same thing right?
So what was my upside again?
How does this help to pay the bills or sell my product?

SH vendor again:
Where are the pictures of my last prizes and of the happy guys getting them? Where is the thread (with big cool pictures and my logo plastered everywhere) to the last shoot? Where is the good guy list telling SH members to buy our stuff?
Where are the special video clips and close up shots of my products in action?
Where is the special trophy awarded to the best guy using my product and where is his picture holding my product beside the trophy?
Where are the linked articles and equipment reviews that tell my customers why you guys use my equipment, how great my product is, and how great our service is?

I think you need to think bigger and outside the prizes of one little shoot….Ask small and get the same. Rest assured if you think bigger I will respond in kind…It is what I do and it is certainly what SH vendors do.

I am not suggesting that none of this stuff exists. I am suggesting you need to bring something a supporter would like to get behind and at least feels he has a chance of recouping some of his losses. Ask the right question and he might help you figure out a way to your goals.

Best of luck!
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

<span style="color: #3366FF">X-fan,
Thanks for your post and you bring some very nice insight and I appreciate your opinion. I do believe you took my 30,000 foot level approach to what I believe to be a simple issue, or rather an issue that can be addressed in many different ways. Many of your points I will touch on however I do feel that a detailed address will be difficult while trying to keep this in some perspective. Also, do not take any of my responses as sharp retorts as that is not my intent.</span>

Mike,

I have no idea what your business relationship is to this site (if any), yet even though I have been here a very short time I too already feel a vested interest.
This site has personal value as it offers depth of experience and perspective that is unavailable anywhere else.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
I have no vested or monetary interest in this site. I am not a paid spokesman for any of the products I recommend or the companies represented in my signature.</span>

So if I might, allow me offer a business man's perspective on things.
I think you are looking at the shooting event support problem as it currently exists rather than offering creative business solutions as to how things might be.
<span style="color: #3366FF">
I, to, am a businessman. I work for one of the largest companies in my field and have a number of reports under me. I also have an advanced business degree. I am not looking at the "event support problem" as a "problem". I am simply asking if you're going to buy an Eagle scope cover, can you buy it from a Hide vendor? It's basically that simple.</span>

You also need to consider who you are dealing with and what my motivations are. As a hard ass business owner my primary concern is money in and money out and these days we business owners are bleeding desperately. I count and account for every dime and I am alive today because I am a hard ass competition killing mother fucker, yet 3 of my 4 businesses are experiencing some form of issues. By the end of this year people (that I consider family) will go home for good.
Until you have sat on my side you cannot imagine how that feels.
<span style="color: #3366FF">
I'm not sure what you mean by your side? Do you mean having the power to fire someone or running a business? I think you're being a bit presumptive if you think your position is exclusive.</span>

Despite the uneducated sentiments of none business folk here thinking Badger or others are striking it rich...Well, there is just no Goddamned way they are. I have equipment sitting in warehouses and people sitting at home that are fully capable of building this stuff and I wouldn’t touch what these great businesses do with a 10 foot pole. Margins are extremely competitive in that business and I do not know how they make ends meet. Kudos and props to those guys! Not only do they make a exceptional product they back it up with outstanding service.
First class and I tip my hat.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Which is a nice point of reinforcement as to why we should support these business owners.</span>

So be well advised that (with the economy as it is) if you approach me looking for money and support you better do it with a mission and you better have a plan on how to help me succeed. Show up without the above and expect me to tell you not to bang your head on the way out the door. What else did you think would happen?

<span style="color: #3333FF">Of course if one approaches a vendor asking for product there will be a quid pro quo. It's called advertisement. It's a way to earn business. If you don't think having those prizes on the table will influence a future purchase decision than you are unique. How do you advertise your businesses? </span>

Pretend I am a SH vendor:
You call me wanting support for your shoot.
First question (whether you are asked of you or not) is always what is my upside?
Did I not already pay for the SH vendors account?
Where there support expectations tied to this account (probably not?).
<span style="color: #3366FF">
Until recently prize table donation was required by all SH vendors.</span>

Now you want to beat on me for not supporting some nameless shoot that my customers don't give a shit about?

<span style="color: #3366FF">Here is where you are mistaken. I'm not asking for some nameless shoot. I'm talking about a nationally recognized event full of your customers. In fact, it is full of the exact demographic that everyone in the "tactical" industry wants to market to so if you're not there, your competitor is. (ironically another SH vendor). </span>

You did read that above comment right? If you think I missed that comment you seriously underestimate me. I know my buyers. It is my life. If you want to know about my buyers you should ask ME.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Where do you think SH vendor's customers come from? Probably, with few exceptions, they are all from here. And they will see how you treat your customers here. Many vendors would not be so without the Hide. Many have come here and failed because of their business practices and their customer service. The Hide is littered with the carcasses of the companies that thought they could dictate what the customer wanted and how the customer would be treated....they were wrong.</span>

Kind of gets interesting from there...
SH vendor:
Of the guys at your shoot how many buyers are there? That's right...They already have what they need so pretty much nothing (or next to it). What is my product exposure? Same thing right?
So what was my upside again?
How does this help to pay the bills or sell my product?

SH vendor again:
Where are the pictures of my last prizes and of the happy guys getting them? Where is the thread (with big cool pictures and my logo plastered everywhere) to the last shoot? Where is the good guy list telling SH members to buy our stuff? Where are the special video clips and close up shots of my products in action?
Where is the special trophy awarded to the best guy using my product and where is his picture holding my product beside the trophy?
Where are the linked articles and equipment reviews that tell my customers why you guys use my equipment, how great my product is, and how great our service is?
<span style="color: #3333FF">
There are many questions here and they are all legitimate and I will address them accordingly in the next post.</span>

I think you need to think bigger and outside the prizes of one little shoot….Ask small and get the same. Rest assured if you think bigger I will respond in kind…It is what I do and it is certainly what SH vendors do.

<span style="color: #3333FF">I think it's easy to forget most of these vendors are not some corporate conglomerate. They are a single guy in his garage trying to turn his passion into a little profit. It's not GE looking to take over the Cordura world. I am thinking about the Hide, where it came from and where I feel Lowlight wants to take it. We are not the product whores of AR15 et al who only care about their bank account at the price of their integrity. Sure, Lowlight would like to make money but given his past history promotion of the sport was WELL AHEAD of profit for Sniper's Hide. </span>

I am not suggesting that none of this stuff exists. I am suggesting you need to bring something a supporter would like to get behind and at least feels he has a chance of recouping some of his losses. Ask the right question and he might help you figure out a way to your goals.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Again, I feel you're blowing this out of proportion and although all of your points are valid, they're well beyond the spectrum of the point I was making. As I said earlier, I ask if you're going to buy product "X", will you buy it from a SH vendor? Not you must, not "required", but will you give a SH vendor the first chance to earn your business? We will leave filling the prize tables to the vendors themselves.</span>

Best of luck!

<span style="color: #3333FF">Thanks</span>
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

X-fan,
To continue with more in-depth responses to your questions.

SH vendor:
Of the guys at your shoot how many buyers are there?

<span style="color: #3333FF">How many who are actually at my shoot or how many of the 65,000 registered members of the Hide will see how happy he is? Or the good friend who couldn't make the shoot but sees the new kit when you get back to your home range? As I stated in my other post word of mouth here is HUGE and if you're a guy who always steps up as many do (I'm thinking here of US Optics, THANK YOU VERY MUCH JOHN) you will get a fine reputation as being a great supporter. That influences future purchases. </span>

That's right...They already have what they need so pretty much nothing (or next to it).
<span style="color: #3333FF">
??? I have a ton of shit and you know what? I'm always looking for more stuff. Many guys I know are gear queers and can have a dozen mag holders and are excited about winning that other one. Yes, I said winning, even if you placed 50th out of 60th place, you still won a "prize" and it is cherished more when earned rather than bought. And will you thank that vendor for supporting the match by making your next purchase from him? That's what he's banking on. Many will.</span>

What is my product exposure? Same thing right?
So what was my upside again?
How does this help to pay the bills or sell my product?
<span style="color: #3333FF">
I think most of this was answered above. Pay your bills? That's your responsibility. If you can't pay to play you shouldn't be playing. Do you know why a vast majority of restaurants go broke and close their doors? I can guarantee it's not bad food. Many times running a business (as I'm sure you're aware) is like running your personal life. Take a look at the 2009 Sniper's Hide build thread. That thread is a good snapshot of the bad that can happen when you're a douche business here on the Hide. You think he'll ever earn business through this site again? </span>

SH vendor again:
Where are the pictures of my last prizes and of the happy guys getting them? Where is the thread (with big cool pictures and my logo plastered everywhere) to the last shoot?

<span style="color: #3333FF">Let me ask you this, how much did you give? Where are the banners you sent? What literature/information did you send? If you as a vendor sent a $20 notebook and you want $200 worth of effort to go into showing you your ROI? That's not good business either. And I have yet to see an event without pictures and guess what's in those pictures? Happy contestants.</span>

Where is the good guy list telling SH members to buy our stuff?
<span style="color: #3333FF">
It's always in the AAR of the thread.
</span>

Where are the special video clips and close up shots of my products in action?

<span style="color: #3333FF">You want video clips and still photos? Who pays for that? You didn't with your nylon scope cover, or your bipod, or your stock. If you're donating a prize, how do you expect that prize to be used in the event? </span>

Where is the special trophy awarded to the best guy using my product and where is his picture holding my product beside the trophy?
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Usually the winners are shown with their prizes. The top guys. If you want the guy to finish last to have a pic taken of the hat you threw in a box, you're probably not going to get it. But you will probably get a nice thank you note. </span>

Where are the linked articles and equipment reviews that tell my customers why you guys use my equipment, how great my product is, and how great our service is?

<span style="color: #3333FF">This is all over the Hide. Go in any one of the many sections and look for product reviews. There are many there. </span>
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I find this an interesting discussion. As a new shooter overall, less then a year shooting, and new to competitions I will share my observations.

First I think a lot of equipment is bought from shooters going to competitions and training sessions. As mentioned many experienced shooters have all the kit, yet just as many shooters do not have everything, or everything they desire, and they are interested and open to seeing what others are using. I am sure many scopes and rifles are sold after a competition on the grounds that many shooters get to finally look through the glass they have heard so much about or handle the rifle they have been reading about. As hard as it is for many to fathom not everyone has seen a S&B, US Optics, NF, Vortex, GAP, OBR, AW, Viperskins, Sako, or whatever is currently the new hotness. I know first hand this is true for many of people myself included.

I also find it interesting that many responses to this thread focus specifically on those who put prizes on the table. I believe the core concept was that we should endeavor to support those vendors that support the shooting community. <span style="font-weight: bold">To me</span> this means those that have great customer services and reasonable prices, note I didn't say the <span style="font-style: italic">lowest prices</span>. If I have my choice between a Mile High, Euro Optics, Delta Outdoorsman, or a big box company I will take the little guys every time. Their customer service is beyond reproach. And yes have I have bought from all of them and will do so again as I can not honestly say enough superlatives about each of them.

Overall, to me, it is more important how the vendors on this site take care of the shooters in the day today transactions more then it is how much they put on the table at a match. I am pleased with everyone I have transacted business with on this site and encourage anyone who is debating between one of this sites sponsors and some Globo Co. to choose the little guy, you will not be disappointed!

So in closing...I pretty much agree with Mike!
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Mike... Do you go to compete only for the the prizes or because you love to shoot and you love being the best at it? I personally would love to be able to just make the top 5 in any shooting competition none the less care what's on the table.

I appreciate wanting to give business to supporters and local industry, but some Vendors both here and elsewhere feel they can ride a reputation that they did at one time deserve but have since lost sight of. In some cases they feel like us the customers should just be grateful for the opportunity to purchase their product without complaint and they forget that without our support or input they don't have a business. Much like if anyone here ever bad mouths certain vendors the masses of the their friends and associates quickly mock and dismiss the experience of the customer as if it never happened and as if the Vendor was without fault or incapable of making a mistake.

That being said there are some PHENOMENAL Vendors here like Ceylon, GA Precision, US Optics, TIS, and numerous others but... there are also some other Vendors here that need to take a hard look in the mirror and realize they've lost sight of customer service. They're running on entitlement and the reputation given to them by past customers and not the present service they've given. They need to remember that it's a 2-way street and some of us don't care how much they've donated to prize tables, the industry, or anyone else when it comes to our money since it is exactly that... our money. There are also some bad customers out there that also think they're entitled and need to remember that just because your buying doesn't mean you get to be a dick with unrealistic expectations...
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

I believe it's certainly a right and important thing to do to donate prizes for the shooting matches and various other events where it is appropriate and beneficial. And we should do this to the best of our abilities.

Now, talking about "best of our abilities":

For example, Borka Tools is a startup, small and new company. I do not have any special financing or extra capital, like more established and/or bigger guys. Everything is based on available cash flow only. And I'm getting quite a bit of requests for donating prizes. Obviously, I can not afford to do it in every case. I do try to support, in decent way, at least a couple of matches per year, and truly hope to do more in the future, but it all depends how business is doing, and more importantly, if business is growing. I regret to decline most of the requests, although I really want to contribute as much as possible. In short, it's a business size limitation, and I hope that this limitation, in case of small and still relatively financially dependant companies, is met with understanding.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Mike... Do you go to compete only for the the prizes or because you love to shoot and you love being the best at it? I personally would love to be able to just make the top 5 in any shooting competition none the less care what's on the table.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Broker,
To be honest, I go to have fun, because I love to shoot, and to hang out and BS with old and new friends. Do I like the prize table? Absolutely, who doesn't? Would I go if there was zero on the prize table? Absolutely, for the reasons stated above. </span>

I appreciate wanting to give business to supporters and local industry, but some Vendors both here and elsewhere feel they can ride a reputation that they did at one time deserve but have since lost sight of. In some cases they feel like us the customers should just be grateful for the opportunity to purchase their product without complaint and they forget that without our support or input they don't have a business.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Great point. My question to you is are these vendors the only ones that sell their particular product(s)? Because if not, don't give them any business.</span>

Much like if anyone here ever bad mouths certain vendors the masses of the their friends and associates quickly mock and dismiss the experience of the customer as if it never happened and as if the Vendor was without fault or incapable of making a mistake.
<span style="color: #3333FF">
Agreed, but as we both know there are two sides to a story and a vendor deserves the right to defend themselves. Also, if you take 1000 satisfied customers and 5 unsatisfied customers, do you honestly expect the 1000 not to relay their positive experiences? I believe the 5 have every right to express their displeasure but we must also consider how they're doing that as well. If one comes and says "____ company sucks because they screwed me over" and leave it at that, it's not going to go unchallenged. If their detailed explanation outlines the exact transpiring of events then they deserve to be heard, and I'm all for that no matter who it is. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Keep in mind they are more likely to get their issue resolved in a satisfactory and timely manner as well by addressing the issue in a mature manner. </span>

That being said there are some PHENOMENAL Vendors here like Ceylon, GA Precision, US Optics, TIS, and numerous others but... there are also some other Vendors here that need to take a hard look in the mirror and realize they've lost sight of customer service. They're running on entitlement and the reputation given to them by past customers and not the present service they've given. They need to remember that it's a 2-way street and some of us don't care how much they've donated to prize tables, the industry, or anyone else when it comes to our money since it is exactly that... our money. There are also some bad customers out there that also think they're entitled and need to remember that just because your buying doesn't mean you get to be a dick with unrealistic expectations...

<span style="color: #3333FF">Great point. It is a two way street. We as the consumers have the right to vote with our wallets and communicate our displeasure. As I said before though if you're going to vote with your wallet against a vendor, have the spine to contact them and tell them why. Reward the great ones and punish the bad ones. The great ones will survive and the bad ones will go by the wayside. As I mentioned in an earlier thread that's why there are many who are no longer here and probably a few here who are on the cusp of leaving. </span>
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Just my .02. I haven't fired a match in well over two decades, and likely never will again. So a prize table, for me, is moot. That being said, since joining here and learning a great deal, I've bought quite a bit of equipment from 'hide vendors.

In doing so I have met and spoken with a bunch of damn fine people. I've had my share of dealing with asses and boobs in all areas over my life, but have never run into any 'hide vendor I wouldn't want to deal with again. That is rare. I'm not saying I will never meet such a person, but the quality of the individuals I've dealt with has been far better than the norm.

Liberty Optics, TAB Gear, SWFA etc. I will always go to first. At some point in one's life, one begins to put a value on customer service as opposed to just the bottom-dollar. For me, peace of mind knowing they'll provide the support for any related issue I might have easily compensates for the $20 savings realized elsewhere.

cf: Botach
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

Mike and myself always butt heads...

For once I am in full agreement! Support Hide vendors! There are very few hide vendors I have not personally talked with on the phone about their product or services.

Have I ever seen a prize table? Nope.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

With decades of competitive shooting under my belt, I have seen a fair number of prize tables. I am in complete agreement that I will give a business with great customer service my money long before I will give it to one that has the cheapest price.

It seems that sometimes the cheapest price is thrown out there to bring in customers. The really smart businesses realize that great customer service will generate so much word of mouth referral business, that those businesses don't have to put out the lowest price. Sometimes, low prices are done to offset the lack of customers that word of mouth info about poor customer service generates.

Some places that have treated me so well that it surprised me: Alexander Arms, AR15 Performance, Leupold and Stevens, and Badger Ordnance.
 
Re: Just some equipment thoughts

for what its worth, I try to buy stuff from 'hide vendors. They have always been very helpful and shipping is always super fast in my experience.
 
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