Advanced Marksmanship Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

[Target In Sight]

Hi all,

A question keeps bugging me, I thought I ask it here for your wisdom, and please excuse me if it is a dumb question or if it has been covered before.

The range I shoot at has 100, 200 yard paper target stands, and 300~600 steel targets with 500 and 600 yard line on a higher ground than the bench area.

Shooting at 100 and 200 yard, I normally have my rifle and barrel pretty flat, and leveled with the ground, so I am not shooting at an angle. But when I shoot 500 and 600 yard steel targets, I just lower my body and the stock so the muzzle tilts upward a bit.

I find the dope is off a bit, and since the recoil isn't just straight back, but also downwards, I lose follow up sometimes.

My question is: Does this consider shooting at an angle? and should I raise the bipod higher so the gun can still be leveled? What is the preferred/easier way of doing this?

Appreciate any feedback~

Most kindly regards,

Dyl..

 

[Country]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

It's way better to raise the bi-pod legs up than drop the butt down. As that compromises your shooting syle , trigger pull , head position etc. It is ok for small adjustments but once the butt starts to go too low on your shoulder it's no good. Also you may not be controling recoil properly in this bad position. Another way to raise the bi-pod without moving the leg locks is to geta small sheet of plywood or craftwood that is thick enough to just slip under the feet. Several sheets can be glued together to make up the right height.
Yes any increase of barrel angle above horizontal is considered angle fire . It is not much to worry about if it is within the normal zero range (100 -200 ) or a bit further because the zero accounts for it but as the angle elevation gets greater to reach longer ranges then angle fire needs to be included in a trajectory calc because gravity increases on the bullets path compared to flat fire . Certainly at 500 -600 . It is opposite shooting down angle.
The gun is never actually "level" the centerline down the bore is always pointing up when sighting at any real distance .
Atmospheric conditions could also be affecting the trajectory and possibly canting .
Get a clinometer and attach it to the gun and read the angle to the long range targets with the bipod raised . Entert that angle.

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

Thank you Sir.,

This is great information. You are hitting the exact situation I am facing, butt stock too low => upper tip of the stock into shoulder pocket, weird head position, messed up recoil, and off DOPE at farther distance.
I will be at the range again next Monday, will definitely bring some plywood and give it a try.

Thank you very much,

Most kindly regards,

Dyl..

 

[gugubica]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

The difference between 200 yards and 600 yards will be almost un-noticable unless the far targets are WAY higher.

You should be fine droping the butt. If you are running out of room, start with the bipod higher.

This is not angle shooting, you will not see any difference until you get around 20 degrees, changing from a 200 yard shot to a 600 yard shot will be no where near that.

If you are treating them as two seperate setups, go ahead and adjust your rifle any way you need, but being able to switch from near to far targets in the same firing string is a valuable skill.

 

[Country]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

That is his problem the far targets are way higher .
So the elevation adjustmet with droping the butt is upsetting his hold and control.
You can't push your body down any further than the ground! Some people are way bigger than others so can't get down as far. Anyway he is shooting from a bench and that makes it much harder to adjust in my view because you can't flatten out as in prone you are sitting upright.
Once the butt is out of the shoulder then hold and recoil control is lost .
Any angle is angle shooting , it's just that small angle changes don't change trajectory much . We don't know the angle he is firing at , it could be huge who knows . The best advice is to calculate any angle and enter it . The same as if the angle is " zero " you enter zero don't you. On a fairly flat range the problem would be far less but his range does not seem the case.
There is more to slant range than just gravity there is also the change in sight line which acounts for most of the errors. At 500 yards shooting uphill at 30 degress will change a 270's POI by inches about 9 inches . The actual trajectory for the distance drop has not changed much but the line of sight angle has changed . I am not a balistics expert so I can't explain it correctly but belive me that at long range shooting uphill or downhill can cause missed shots quite easily at small targets .

 

[Country]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

You are welcome . I hope it helps.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

Come on guys, apply some basic geometry here.

If your 600 yard bull is 5 feet higher than your 100 yard bull off the ground, the only way you can maintain the same barrel angle relative to the ground for both is to raise the rifle 5 feet off the ground.

Granted, the further away you get the less the angle is to move a given distance of arc, or short leg of the right triangle, but for the question as asked, you'd need to raise the rifle the vertical height difference of the bulls to maintain the same angle.

Assuming you are not going to do this, then let's address the issue from a shooting mechanics and position perspective. For your body type, there is an optimum distance that your shoulder needs to be above the ground. You can maintain that height when shooting down, level, and up, by changing the height of the bipod legs. You will also find on irregular terrain that you may not have enough leg adjustment to accomplish the angle you need to achieve. In that case, you may have to put something under the bipod, such as a ruck, or you may have to put the ruck under your chest, depending on the combination of angles you are dealing with (slope of ground, height of target above or below 0 degrees barrel inclination).

The basis for asking the question is valid. When making position adjustments for your NPA, you do want to think - do I adjust the angle, or do I adjust the distance? When shooting for example air rifle at 10 meters or smallbore at 50 meters, the athlete has to decide when trying to fix their windage NPA if they are going to move their entire body the distance the NPA is off or change their angle. At these close ranges, moving the distance the body the NPA is off is a very effective way to make minute precise changes to NPA. For example, in air rifle if my hold is hovering in the 8 ring, only a few mm outside of center, a very small movement of both feet laterally while maintaining all other elements of the position is the most precise and predictable way to make this change. Making an angular change to achieve that small POI shift on the target would be very difficult.

The commonality between the air rifle example and the 100 to 600 yard outdoor example is this - START WITH POSITION. Repeatable position and pressure results in repeatable POI.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's way better to raise the bi-pod legs up than drop the butt down. As that compromises your shooting syle , trigger pull , head position etc. It is ok for small adjustments but once the butt starts to go too low on your shoulder it's no good. Also you may not be controling recoil properly in this bad position. Another way to raise the bi-pod without moving the leg locks is to geta small sheet of plywood or craftwood that is thick enough to just slip under the feet. Several sheets can be glued together to make up the right height.
Yes any increase of barrel angle above horizontal is considered angle fire . It is not much to worry about if it is within the normal zero range (100 -200 ) or a bit further because the zero accounts for it <span style="color: #FF0000">but as the angle elevation gets greater to reach longer ranges then angle fire needs to be included in a trajectory calc because gravity increases on the bullets path compared to flat fire . Certainly at 500 -600 . It is opposite shooting down angle.</span>
The gun is never actually "level" the centerline down the bore is always pointing up when sighting at any real distance .
Atmospheric conditions could also be affecting the trajectory and possibly canting .
Get a clinometer and attach it to the gun and read the angle to the long range targets with the bipod raised . Entert that angle.

</div></div>

Gravity is the same on a bullet on an upward angle as it is on a bullet with a downward angle. Its kind of a constant.
Angle fire changes dope when the straight line distance from the muzzle to the target is different than the horizontal distance, since gravity works in relation to the latter.
The myth of holding over for uphill shots and under for downhill shots is wrong at best. You hold under for both because the the long side of a right trianle is longer than the short side and gravity works on the short side.

 

[Country]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's way better to raise the bi-pod legs up than drop the butt down. As that compromises your shooting syle , trigger pull , head position etc. It is ok for small adjustments but once the butt starts to go too low on your shoulder it's no good. Also you may not be controling recoil properly in this bad position. Another way to raise the bi-pod without moving the leg locks is to geta small sheet of plywood or craftwood that is thick enough to just slip under the feet. Several sheets can be glued together to make up the right height.
Yes any increase of barrel angle above horizontal is considered angle fire . It is not much to worry about if it is within the normal zero range (100 -200 ) or a bit further because the zero accounts for it <span style="color: #FF0000">but as the angle elevation gets greater to reach longer ranges then angle fire needs to be included in a trajectory calc because gravity increases on the bullets path compared to flat fire . Certainly at 500 -600 . It is opposite shooting down angle.</span>
The gun is never actually "level" the centerline down the bore is always pointing up when sighting at any real distance .
Atmospheric conditions could also be affecting the trajectory and possibly canting .
Get a clinometer and attach it to the gun and read the angle to the long range targets with the bipod raised . Entert that angle.

</div></div>

Gravity is the same on a bullet on an upward angle as it is on a bullet with a downward angle. Its kind of a constant.
Angle fire changes dope when the straight line distance from the muzzle to the target is different than the horizontal distance, since gravity works in relation to the latter.
The myth of holding over for uphill shots and under for downhill shots is wrong at best. You hold under for both because the the long side of a right trianle is longer than the short side and gravity works on the short side. </div></div>
Well I should have said the effect of gravity on the trajectory . however I did say that the main errors come from the line of sight problems .
I also find that the elevation required for both up and down hill is less than for flat fire .
I am not a balistics expert and sometimes get terms mixed up .

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

All,

Leo (9H) covered most everything. All I can add is do not confuse angle shooting and line of departure. Some posts make me think that may not be clear.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any angle is angle shooting.</div></div>

I whole heartedly disagree, it is only angle shooting if you have to account for it in your firing solution. Different setups can change how you interact with the rifle, true, but this would be closer defined as alternate position shooting.

If you subscribe to this logic, then all shooting would be angle shooting as we don't shoot lazers and must account for projectile arc.

The OP is actually seeking adive on positional shooting, not angle shooting, althoughh he may not have realized it.

 

[Country]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

If it's at an angle to the horizontal it's an angle and thats it . Whether you need to correct for it is another totally seperate issue .
A few degrees is not much to worry about .

 

[HOG0317]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

Talking about Angeles Shooting Ranges huh? I HATE shooting prone on that range

 

[Pat M]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

good cheek weld first

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

All,

Since the bullet begins to fall immediately in a definitive and uniform arc as it clears the bore, the bore will always need an attitude to create a trajectory (bullet path) whereby the bullet can reach the target. This is not angle shooting, and ballistics calculations for a distant target, in a horizontal line with the shooters position, will not require slope dope.

 

[Shrike]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

I couldn't agree more with Country regarding the "definition" of angled shooting. You could technicall acount for the slightest angle with elevation, but sometimes the effects are negligable especially for close range shots.

I'm not sure what sobrbiker means by holding under for both uphill and downhill shots, I could be misunderstanding this, but you are NEVER holding under for any shot unless the downward angle from the shooter to the target exceeds the natural gravitational drop on the bullet. There is an exception to this statement only if the bullet hasn't reached the apex of it's trajectory. Even then, this would only be an issue with the sights on the gun. If you could really "aim" the centerline of the barrel at something, the bullet would always hit low. Scopes and sight height confuse this concept for alot of people. There is simply a line of sight from the crosshairs to the bullseye that intersects the bullet's path causing a hit. "dope" is finding out where that intersection is at each distance.

 

[rero360]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

_9H: I never thought about moving the entire body to make those small changes instead of pivoting in place. I'm sure I've done it without thinking about it, but the concept makes plenty of sense, like how bowlers will shift to the left or right from center to hit the pins that they want.

I'm willing to bet the OP is talking about Angeles range as well, I shoot there all the time and it can be a pain getting a good prone position to hit the 600 yard targets, but it is more than doable.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I couldn't agree more with Country regarding the "definition" of angled shooting. You could technicall acount for the slightest angle with elevation, but sometimes the effects are negligable especially for close range shots.

I'm not sure what sobrbiker means by holding under for both uphill and downhill shots, I could be misunderstanding this, but you are NEVER holding under for any shot unless the downward angle from the shooter to the target exceeds the natural gravitational drop on the bullet. There is an exception to this statement only if the bullet hasn't reached the apex of it's trajectory. Even then, this would only be an issue with the sights on the gun. If you could really "aim" the centerline of the barrel at something, the bullet would always hit low. Scopes and sight height confuse this concept for alot of people. There is simply a line of sight from the crosshairs to the bullseye that intersects the bullet's path causing a hit. "dope" is finding out where that intersection is at each distance.</div></div>

Eric,

You may be a little confused about "holding under". Shooting uphill or downhill, you will need to hold low as slope distance to target is greater than horizontal distance to target; and, gravity is effecting the bullet over horitontal distance.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure what sobrbiker means by holding under for both uphill and downhill shots, I could be misunderstanding this, but you are NEVER holding under for any shot unless the downward angle from the shooter to the target exceeds the natural gravitational drop on the bullet.</div></div>

I'm afraid that you have been misinformed. Perhaps this reference will help you:

Angled Fire Explained

 

[Shrike]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

I enjoyed reading that article.

Perhaps I was taking the post to mean that the gun actually shoots higher. I was just mentioning the physics behind trajectory, not talking about the "perception" of aiming. The bullet can never "shoot higher" since the gravitational force vector on the bullet has a constant magnitude.

Looking at the drawings in the article, you can see that the bullet never rises based on inclination....only natural trajectory.

After re-reading my post, I misspoke in saying that you never "hold under". You do, in fact, since your sight is simply a perception. I guess I was taking a more literal approach to bullet trajectory.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

There is a lot of bad information in this thread. There is some accurate also...be careful which you follow.

Just needed to be said for any future searches.

For the record, 9 hotel, Lindy and Sterling are spot on.

 

[Shrike]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

I see where gugubica is going with his post, but I just can't seem to understand where everyone is getting that bullets don't experience the same gravitational forces when they are shot at an angle as opposed to being shot horizontally.

Wording errors were corrected in my last post. -9.8 m/s^2 = constant. Sighting changes.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see where gugubica is going with his post, but I just can't seem to understand where everyone is getting that bullets don't experience the same gravitational forces when they are shot at an angle as opposed to being shot horizontally.
</div></div>

That's just it...they do. That's why you have to figure the firing solution using the horizontal distance. This distance will ALWAYS be shorter than a slope distance if shooting at an angle, but not enough to matter until the angle is over 25 degrees.

Shorter horizontal distance equals a shot that goes over the target unless accounted for. This is why you either hold low or dail it out, ALWAYS, whether uphil or downhill.

 

[Shrike]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

You may aim low since the horizontal distance isn't as great as the horizontal distance in a level shot. But that's just it, the horizontal distance isn't as far, so if you dial your scope for the true horizontal distance you should hit the target (i.e. correcting for the angled shot)....or you could HOLD low, but the bullet is still going to have the same gravitational force on it than it would with a horizontal shot.

I see the point you're making, but it's only related to the sighting of your gun, whether you dial the correct elevation or hold low. The bullet will ALWAYS exhibit projectile motion. It can never defy gravity.

http://cnx.org/content/m13837/latest/

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: Keeping barrel leveled while shooting?

Sorry, I have been on a business trip, and didn't follow my own thread. For the record, Country is spot on about the 500, 600 yard target being on a much higher ground. I went to the range and adjust the bipod higher, it helped some, but not enough.

Any higher on the bipod I will have to stack two rear bags under the stock.

Angeles range it is HOG0317. The only range for me to shoot that far and I have to drive 50 miles to get there.

Appreciate all the info everyone, and I've printed out Lindy's article. A glass of 18year McCalan and a good reading hopefully helps me to make sense of it.