Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Kreiger hands down!
Kreiger hands down!
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Can't go wrong with Kreiger. Noveske makes goos stuff too, but I don't see them as "match-grade"
Can't go wrong with Kreiger. Noveske makes goos stuff too, but I don't see them as "match-grade"
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Krieger...I have three Kreigers now and HAD two service rifles with them when I lived in a different state. All shot great.
Krieger...I have three Kreigers now and HAD two service rifles with them when I lived in a different state. All shot great.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
I think it depends on what type af Ar you are trying to build.If you are looking for a service rifle for high power competitions I would go with Krieger. If you want a flat top type upper go with Noveske. I owne bolth barrels and bolth are very accurate high quality barrels. Last I heard Noveske is not taking any new orders.
I think it depends on what type af Ar you are trying to build.If you are looking for a service rifle for high power competitions I would go with Krieger. If you want a flat top type upper go with Noveske. I owne bolth barrels and bolth are very accurate high quality barrels. Last I heard Noveske is not taking any new orders.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kreiger hands down! </div></div>
+1!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kreiger hands down! </div></div>
+1!
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Kreiger = single point cut rifled, match-grade barrels
Noveske = pull-button rifled, match-grade barrels. Also remember Noveske is the middle man. Pac-Nor makes the barrels, Noveske finishes them and adds his mark-up.
Lastly, if you stake any claim in GAP's opinions, they use cut rifling exclusively. They say button rifled barrels runs the risk of uneven twist rates resulting from button slippage. This is caused by lubrication issues, or uneven steel densities. Neither of these variations are a problem when the cut rifling technique is used. Also, cut-rifling has the reputation of lasting longer because it creates less stress in the steel.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of button-rifled barrels can shoot as well as cut-rifled ones, but keep in mind you'll never hear of a cut-rifled barrel shooting poorly . . .
If this sounds biased, that is because it is. At the end of the day, I frankly loathe Noveske. I just can't understand what value he brings to his products that command such prices. I guy is a marketing genius.
Kreiger = single point cut rifled, match-grade barrels
Noveske = pull-button rifled, match-grade barrels. Also remember Noveske is the middle man. Pac-Nor makes the barrels, Noveske finishes them and adds his mark-up.
Lastly, if you stake any claim in GAP's opinions, they use cut rifling exclusively. They say button rifled barrels runs the risk of uneven twist rates resulting from button slippage. This is caused by lubrication issues, or uneven steel densities. Neither of these variations are a problem when the cut rifling technique is used. Also, cut-rifling has the reputation of lasting longer because it creates less stress in the steel.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of button-rifled barrels can shoot as well as cut-rifled ones, but keep in mind you'll never hear of a cut-rifled barrel shooting poorly . . .
If this sounds biased, that is because it is. At the end of the day, I frankly loathe Noveske. I just can't understand what value he brings to his products that command such prices. I guy is a marketing genius.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Kreiger is awesome but..................
I do have to make a correction to the above post say that I believe the PacNor/Noveske barrels are polygonal rifled not button rifled and have a very good track record for accuracy and life span. Just check out the Noveske site and they are all listed as being polygonal tubes.
My Knights SR15 has a Kreiger 1-7.7" twist barrel and works pretty good over all.
With that being said I wouldn't have any problem buying a Noveske tube when it comes time for a replacement.
Kreiger is awesome but..................
I do have to make a correction to the above post say that I believe the PacNor/Noveske barrels are polygonal rifled not button rifled and have a very good track record for accuracy and life span. Just check out the Noveske site and they are all listed as being polygonal tubes.
My Knights SR15 has a Kreiger 1-7.7" twist barrel and works pretty good over all.
With that being said I wouldn't have any problem buying a Noveske tube when it comes time for a replacement.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr15match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do have to make a correction to the above post say that I believe the PacNor/Noveske barrels are polygonal rifled not button rifled and have a very good track record for accuracy and life span. Just check out the Noveske site and they are all listed as being polygonal tubes.
</div></div>
Thanks for proving my point . . . more marketing genius by Noveske.
Pac-Nor uses a traditional button-rifling process, their website even says so. They do offer a particular style button with canted lands. Most would call this 5R or 5C rifling, but Pac-Nor and Noveske insist on calling it polygonal rifling.
It is NOT polygonal rifling in the same sense as HK or Glock and offers no advantages and definitely no velocity gains. Polygonal rifling from Noveske is simply another good ol' fashioned advertising scheme. I love it!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr15match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do have to make a correction to the above post say that I believe the PacNor/Noveske barrels are polygonal rifled not button rifled and have a very good track record for accuracy and life span. Just check out the Noveske site and they are all listed as being polygonal tubes.
</div></div>
Thanks for proving my point . . . more marketing genius by Noveske.
Pac-Nor uses a traditional button-rifling process, their website even says so. They do offer a particular style button with canted lands. Most would call this 5R or 5C rifling, but Pac-Nor and Noveske insist on calling it polygonal rifling.
It is NOT polygonal rifling in the same sense as HK or Glock and offers no advantages and definitely no velocity gains. Polygonal rifling from Noveske is simply another good ol' fashioned advertising scheme. I love it!
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr15match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do have to make a correction to the above post say that I believe the PacNor/Noveske barrels are polygonal rifled not button rifled and have a very good track record for accuracy and life span. Just check out the Noveske site and they are all listed as being polygonal tubes.
</div></div>
Thanks for proving my point . . . more marketing genius by Noveske.
Pac-Nor uses a traditional button-rifling process, there website says so. They do offer a particular style button with canted lands. Most would call this 5R or 5C rifling, but Pac-Nor and Noveske insist on calling it polygonal rifling.
It is NOT polygonal rifling in the same sense as HK or Glock and offers no advantages and definitely no velocity gains. Polygonal rifling from Noveske is simply another good ol' fashioned advertising scheme. I love it! </div></div>
+1 Marketing hype for the same old thing.
From wikipedia:
"Other companies such as Noveske(Pac Nor) and LWRC use a rifling more like the conventional rifling with both of the lands sides being sloped but has a flat top and defined corners, this type of rifling is more of a canted land type of rifling than polygonal rifling."
On top of that, polygonal is a style, not a process. You still can only have button or cut (or hammer forged of course).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr15match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do have to make a correction to the above post say that I believe the PacNor/Noveske barrels are polygonal rifled not button rifled and have a very good track record for accuracy and life span. Just check out the Noveske site and they are all listed as being polygonal tubes.
</div></div>
Thanks for proving my point . . . more marketing genius by Noveske.
Pac-Nor uses a traditional button-rifling process, there website says so. They do offer a particular style button with canted lands. Most would call this 5R or 5C rifling, but Pac-Nor and Noveske insist on calling it polygonal rifling.
It is NOT polygonal rifling in the same sense as HK or Glock and offers no advantages and definitely no velocity gains. Polygonal rifling from Noveske is simply another good ol' fashioned advertising scheme. I love it! </div></div>
+1 Marketing hype for the same old thing.
From wikipedia:
"Other companies such as Noveske(Pac Nor) and LWRC use a rifling more like the conventional rifling with both of the lands sides being sloped but has a flat top and defined corners, this type of rifling is more of a canted land type of rifling than polygonal rifling."
On top of that, polygonal is a style, not a process. You still can only have button or cut (or hammer forged of course).
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
So who has the final answer here? Are the barrels supplied to Noveske a pulled button or their version of polygonal / cut rifling? If I am wrong then I guess I'm wrong. There just seems to be so much good said about the Noveske final product and I have never read about a poor performing barrel from them.
Just curious is all and am open to new things all the time.
So who has the final answer here? Are the barrels supplied to Noveske a pulled button or their version of polygonal / cut rifling? If I am wrong then I guess I'm wrong. There just seems to be so much good said about the Noveske final product and I have never read about a poor performing barrel from them.
Just curious is all and am open to new things all the time.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
This is yet another discussion that demonstrates what a valuable site Sniper's Hide is. It's very difficult to find such a wealth of knowledge on the ins and outs of what makes one barrel more accurate than another. I've been thinking of getting a match grade barrel myself and I was comparing anecdotal evidence since I didn't know the difference between button and cut rifling. And we all know that anecdotal "evidence" isn't very trustworthy.
Now here's my question: what companies offer AR uppers with cut rifled barrels? Or is it an issue of purchasing a Krieger barrel and having a gunsmith put it on an upper for me?
~ZL
This is yet another discussion that demonstrates what a valuable site Sniper's Hide is. It's very difficult to find such a wealth of knowledge on the ins and outs of what makes one barrel more accurate than another. I've been thinking of getting a match grade barrel myself and I was comparing anecdotal evidence since I didn't know the difference between button and cut rifling. And we all know that anecdotal "evidence" isn't very trustworthy.
Now here's my question: what companies offer AR uppers with cut rifled barrels? Or is it an issue of purchasing a Krieger barrel and having a gunsmith put it on an upper for me?
~ZL
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is yet another discussion that demonstrates what a valuable site Sniper's Hide is. It's very difficult to find such a wealth of knowledge on the ins and outs of what makes one barrel more accurate than another. I've been thinking of getting a match grade barrel myself and I was comparing anecdotal evidence since I didn't know the difference between button and cut rifling. And we all know that anecdotal "evidence" isn't very trustworthy.
Now here's my question: what companies offer AR uppers with cut rifled barrels? Or is it an issue of purchasing a Krieger barrel and having a gunsmith put it on an upper for me?
~ZL </div></div>
You can get Krieger to put it in your upper. They did mine and it's superb.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is yet another discussion that demonstrates what a valuable site Sniper's Hide is. It's very difficult to find such a wealth of knowledge on the ins and outs of what makes one barrel more accurate than another. I've been thinking of getting a match grade barrel myself and I was comparing anecdotal evidence since I didn't know the difference between button and cut rifling. And we all know that anecdotal "evidence" isn't very trustworthy.
Now here's my question: what companies offer AR uppers with cut rifled barrels? Or is it an issue of purchasing a Krieger barrel and having a gunsmith put it on an upper for me?
~ZL </div></div>
You can get Krieger to put it in your upper. They did mine and it's superb.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Hey johnl,
I am a little biased here, just make sure you get a "Krieger" barrel and not a "Kreiger" barrel.
The "ei" versions are not as good. 
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
Hey johnl,
I am a little biased here, just make sure you get a "Krieger" barrel and not a "Kreiger" barrel.
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Service rifle your option is Kreiger. Noveske dosnt make a 20" unless its special order and hes so backlogged I dont see that happening anytime soon.
Service rifle your option is Kreiger. Noveske dosnt make a 20" unless its special order and hes so backlogged I dont see that happening anytime soon.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
If the intent is to provide rifling while keeping the internal bore held to less than 1 ten thousands of an inch, all three common procedures will do the trick. Whether “cut rifling”, “button” or “hammer forged” with the right, fresh tooling and proper procedure, all three can do the job. But, that is where the story begins with fine barrels.
The three operations are very different when we look at them from the context of a finished product. Think of it this way, you cannot button rife a barrel that already has thin walls (in the case M16/AR15). These barrels must be “buttoned” in the thick, with say a min. of 1” to 1.5” of diameter. In other words, you start thick, do your best button work and then mount ‘em up in the lathe to bring the exterior contours down to profile. Sounds ok, especially with fine equipment and capable hands. But the issue remains that the most important contour area is also the thinnest, is also the most important in regard to accuracy, that being where the bullet exits. Taking the metal off creates stress and that, many believe, is the defining factor for acute accuracy.
As you have already figured out, if that is the case with “button” it surely must me the case with hammer forged. Well, not quite, if after much higher initial capital costs, the hammer forged barrel can come off the line completely finished (as in NO MORE contouring or work) the results can be very good indeed. But, as imagined, if one needs to do ANY exterior work, the internal dimensional impact is even greater than “buttoned.”
That takes care of buttoned and hammer forged. So, what about cut rifling? Nothing comes easy. A broacher is a very efficient way to go about the controlled cut. Choose your number of grooves and it can be done in one pass. You will not be happy. However, single point cut barrels (welcome to the world of Krieger) is all together different. Krieger first finishes (as in completely done in all regards) the full exterior contour work. And then, with pass after pass after pass, Krieger goes about cutting just one (1) groove at a time. The finished product is well worth the extra money. Most every Krieger barrel is delivered to your maker completely turned, threaded and milled. Only the chamber is yet to be done and Krieger leaves more than enough material to bring your barrel to time properly with your receiver.
Having said all that, I am always astonished at what can be done with button work today and the results in regard to accuracy. I am involved with a new rifle right now that meets that description, but it is not a gas gun. It has been a while since I've been astonished by a hammer forged barrel for accuracy. My guess is that either of the barrels you have selected will require more out of your shooting skills than that which you are worried about.
Then there is the steel and the drilling, reaming etc. etc. etc.
If the intent is to provide rifling while keeping the internal bore held to less than 1 ten thousands of an inch, all three common procedures will do the trick. Whether “cut rifling”, “button” or “hammer forged” with the right, fresh tooling and proper procedure, all three can do the job. But, that is where the story begins with fine barrels.
The three operations are very different when we look at them from the context of a finished product. Think of it this way, you cannot button rife a barrel that already has thin walls (in the case M16/AR15). These barrels must be “buttoned” in the thick, with say a min. of 1” to 1.5” of diameter. In other words, you start thick, do your best button work and then mount ‘em up in the lathe to bring the exterior contours down to profile. Sounds ok, especially with fine equipment and capable hands. But the issue remains that the most important contour area is also the thinnest, is also the most important in regard to accuracy, that being where the bullet exits. Taking the metal off creates stress and that, many believe, is the defining factor for acute accuracy.
As you have already figured out, if that is the case with “button” it surely must me the case with hammer forged. Well, not quite, if after much higher initial capital costs, the hammer forged barrel can come off the line completely finished (as in NO MORE contouring or work) the results can be very good indeed. But, as imagined, if one needs to do ANY exterior work, the internal dimensional impact is even greater than “buttoned.”
That takes care of buttoned and hammer forged. So, what about cut rifling? Nothing comes easy. A broacher is a very efficient way to go about the controlled cut. Choose your number of grooves and it can be done in one pass. You will not be happy. However, single point cut barrels (welcome to the world of Krieger) is all together different. Krieger first finishes (as in completely done in all regards) the full exterior contour work. And then, with pass after pass after pass, Krieger goes about cutting just one (1) groove at a time. The finished product is well worth the extra money. Most every Krieger barrel is delivered to your maker completely turned, threaded and milled. Only the chamber is yet to be done and Krieger leaves more than enough material to bring your barrel to time properly with your receiver.
Having said all that, I am always astonished at what can be done with button work today and the results in regard to accuracy. I am involved with a new rifle right now that meets that description, but it is not a gas gun. It has been a while since I've been astonished by a hammer forged barrel for accuracy. My guess is that either of the barrels you have selected will require more out of your shooting skills than that which you are worried about.
Then there is the steel and the drilling, reaming etc. etc. etc.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Much truth in this thread. I have seen a Noveske (well, Pac-Nor really) barrel shot out in 3000 rounds. Yes, marketing genius for sure but John is a master at it, just don't be running him down on ARFCOM or the hoards of Kool-Aid drinkers will call for you to be hung.....
Rolling Thunder makes many accurate (no pun intended!) points however it should be clarified that when button & even cut rifled barrels are turned to final dimensions, their bores tend to expand slightly. Thank you for the info that Krieger turns to final dimension before rifling, most excellent procedure.
Conversely, hammer forged barrels tend to have their bores shrink when turned down & yes, the HF process can impart significant stresses into the material but sufficient expertise exists today that stress relief processes remove that as an issue with HF barrels.
Much truth in this thread. I have seen a Noveske (well, Pac-Nor really) barrel shot out in 3000 rounds. Yes, marketing genius for sure but John is a master at it, just don't be running him down on ARFCOM or the hoards of Kool-Aid drinkers will call for you to be hung.....
Rolling Thunder makes many accurate (no pun intended!) points however it should be clarified that when button & even cut rifled barrels are turned to final dimensions, their bores tend to expand slightly. Thank you for the info that Krieger turns to final dimension before rifling, most excellent procedure.
Conversely, hammer forged barrels tend to have their bores shrink when turned down & yes, the HF process can impart significant stresses into the material but sufficient expertise exists today that stress relief processes remove that as an issue with HF barrels.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
gman, there are, to my knowledge, only two left standing in regard to providing a final exterior form prior to starting on the internal work, Krieger and Obermyer.
http://obermeyerbarrels.com/
Obermyer's FAQ should be required reading, it can be found here:
http://obermeyerbarrels.com/faq.html
.
gman, there are, to my knowledge, only two left standing in regard to providing a final exterior form prior to starting on the internal work, Krieger and Obermyer.
http://obermeyerbarrels.com/
Obermyer's FAQ should be required reading, it can be found here:
http://obermeyerbarrels.com/faq.html
.
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
I have a 12.5 noveske barreled sbr that will shoot a 5 shot group alittle less than 1/2moa at 100 yards. If they are junk they sure seem to work well!
Chris
I have a 12.5 noveske barreled sbr that will shoot a 5 shot group alittle less than 1/2moa at 100 yards. If they are junk they sure seem to work well!
Chris
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Actually, I heard (or read, actually) that Noveske actually makes the barrels in-house. While he once worked for Pac-Nor, the article claimed that they don't have much to do with his tubes. According to the stuff I read, John has developed his own proprietary buttons, stress relief techniques, and chambers which he uses for his tubes.
FWIW...
Actually, I heard (or read, actually) that Noveske actually makes the barrels in-house. While he once worked for Pac-Nor, the article claimed that they don't have much to do with his tubes. According to the stuff I read, John has developed his own proprietary buttons, stress relief techniques, and chambers which he uses for his tubes.
FWIW...
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
Found that article:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Crane: The barrels that we're talkin' about are Pac-Nor.
Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor's shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor...I used to work there, and now what's goin' on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.
Crane: What type of stainless are they using?
Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.
Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?
Noveske: Let me back up. You can't call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it's gonna' be much different. It's gonna' be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it's a lot harder than any stainless we've ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that's harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.
Crane: And the standard barrel that's being chrome-lined, the non-stainless-steel barrel, what kind of steel is that?
Noveske: That's the same steel that's in the technical data package requirement for the M249.
Crane: And what is that?
Noveske: Well, I'm not gonna' talk about what it is, specfiically.
Crane: O.k., and then you have an Extreme-Duty Barrel, too, right?
Noveske: Right. Now, that Extreme-Duty Barrel, we put on hold because it costs too much to make, and I just don't feel like putting it out there. It's just too expensive.
Crane: Is that a stainless barrel, or is that a chrome-lined standard [carbon] steel barrel?
Noveske: No, that was 17-4 stainless with a Rockwell hardness of 38. It's extremely expensive to make, but we made a bunch, sold 'em all, every body loves 'em, and I haven't made any more because it justs eats up too much tooling.
Crane: Oh, so you basically weren't charging enough money to justify it, essentially?
Noveske: Well, imagine if you had a 40% success rate on something that you made, and all that labor, material that goes into it, and all the tooling, and yes, you might make money, but you have to charge $1,000 for a barrel to make the same money that you make on a $400 barrel. It just didn't make sense. So, you can buy the regular stainless barrel twice and still be under the price of a 17-4 barrel. So we basically stopped makin' 'em. Yes, they're excellent barrels. I have two, myself, personally, but from a realistic product standpoint, it was too much of a Ferarri for me.
Crane: Right. There was no manufacturing protocol that could have been set up to make those more efficiently.
Noveske: Oh, we tried. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars workin' on different approaches, different cuts on the tooling, and last week, even, I just told the guys to stop production on 'em for now, untill I readress it, which I'm a little too busy to focus on...
Crane: How much are those barrels, apiece? 1,000 bucks?
Noveske: Yeah, about 1,000 bucks.
Crane: That's pretty crazy, huh?
Noveske: Yeah, that's why there's no point, right now, even really talkin' about 'em.
Noveske: [Not sure where the interviewer is headed] Well,...
Crane: I'm not messin' with ya'. I'm serious. If I'm gonna' write an article on Noveske, and what's special about your guns, just from a perspective of why do I want a Noveske vs. let's say [another maker's] package. [Noveske, at this point, assesses any biases Crane may have to make sure Crane is coming from a neutral perspective re the questioning, in order to figure out how much to share and how much to hold back. The interviewer assures him that the interviewer is neutral on it, and isn't loyal to any other makers/builders.]
Noveske: I guess...I wanna' know how much information to share and how much to hold back, I guess is what I'm...
Crane: Well, it depends. I mean, if there's stuff that you want to tell me off the record, you just have to tell me, well David, this is something for you to know, but it's off the record, or this is publishable, and you just have to compartmentalize with me. And, if you tell me not to publish something, I won't.
Noveske: O.k., that's good. I just, I'm trying to get a feel, here, so...and, by the way, I'm real greatful for the last article you put up on your website [DefenseReview.com]. I got a lot of traffic to my website from that, and it was a very nice gesture on your part, and I appreciate it.
Crane: Well, you're very welcome. And, to this day, by the way, that article, if you type in Noveske on the web, my article [on Noveske Rifleworks] comes in on the first page on Google and various other search engines.
Noveske: Great. Very good. I appreciate that. [Some more conversation on this.]
Crane: So, talk to me.
Noveske: Here is the thing I hate doing, which is the used car sales pitch, o.k., 'cause I pretty much don't really do it very often. But, what separates my product from the rest of the products out there, is…the obvious thing's the barrel, and, from start to finish, the barrel goes through more inspection and testing than any other barrel out there that I'm aware of. From the point we pull the steel of the trailer in 12-foot bars, we instantly hardness test and serialize each bar. Then, every bar throughout the entire production process is numbered accordingly to its parent bar. And then, like I said, we designed all the tooling so the diameters on the drills, the bore reamers, the hand-lapping process, the button that does the button-rifling is our design, and it's an improvement over conventional polygonal [rifling] in that you get an extended barrel life over conventional polygonal [rifling]. In fact, I've never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out. In a year and two months, there's never been a report of one of my new buttons…the new types of rifling types [barrels] shooting out. We designed that new rifling for our Extreme Duty Machine Gun Barrel Project for the M249 and the Mk46, and we had so much success with that new design that I quickly applied it to all of our M4/M16-type rifles. So, the new rifling is 1-in-7 twist. It appears, when you look down the barrel, as a 6-land-and-groove, and what we did was we adjusted the angles on the sides of the land to give us the optimal performance. After rifling, there's a stress-relief process that is designed to pull out all the stress without losing any hardness. The barrels are then trued-up so that when we put 'em in our CNC-contouring lathe, the contour is 100% concentric to the bore, so that you don't have an strange harmonics when the bullet travels down the barrel, and that's part of the process of…the contouring process is…I'm pretty protective of it, so that's about all I want to say is that it's very accurate. And then, when we go to chambering, it's a chambering process that I developed as an employee of Pac-Nor, and I looked at how they were chambering barrels, and I saw the logic in it, and I found ways to improve it. The reamers are all custom-made for me as far as the grind, the angles, the number of flutes. The way we chamber, you never get any scoring on the lands forward of the throat like most other people have to deal with, because our chips are forced out the back. The end result is a beautiful, highly polished chamber. Every barrel is individually inspected to ensure against or prevent reamer wear and have an undersized chamber. They all get gauged on every point, and the design of the chamber is a design I developed after many different evolutions. This was designed to work…to do full-auto mag dumps with [Black Hills] MK 262 Mod 1 [77gr Open-Tip Match (OTM) 5.56x45mm ammo], and now you can sit there and pour as much ammo as you can through the gun on full-auto, and the thing that's gonna' fail is the gas tube. We haven't had any stuck chambers since I came up with the recent chamber, which is called the Noveske…the acronym, which we write on the barrel is "NMm0", and that stands for Noveske Match Mod 0. It's a chamber that gives you 100% reliability with as much retained accuracy as possible. You can have a more accurate chamber design, but you sacrifice battle-grade reliability. You can get stuck cases and other things with different chambers. So, from the chamber, our barrel is hardness-tested again, just to make sure we didn't lose any hardness in the heat-treating process, and every barrel is serial-numbered at that point. So, now, all the information about the barrel, the heat-treat lot, the packing slip number, the bar number, all that information is now attached to the barrel with a 6-digit serial number, and it goes through the rest of the process with all the information attached to it by that number. And, we keep a log book with every end-user and every bit of information, just in case there was a problem with one customer's barrel, we can track down all the related barrels and pull 'em in in an efficient manner. And we've never had to do that, but I can if I need to.
Crane: And all the barrels are polygonal-rifled, right?
Noveske: All the stainless barrels have…that button that we designed, I call "Improved Polygonal". The polygonal that I used in the past and that some other people are using has one shortcoming, which is an unpredictable end-of-service life. It goes from shooting great to tumbling bullets. Our barrel now gives you a predictable end-of-service life. As it's shooting out, it's going to open up in group before the bullets tumble.
Crane: And how many rounds are you gonna' get out of that?
Noveske: I don't know. I know of barrels that are over 15,000 rounds still in service. So, I don't know how long they'll go, but I know that they're going quite a ways.
Crane: What about the chrome-lined barrels? Are those polygonal, too?
Noveske: Those are strictly made to the TDP for the M249, so they're a 6-land-and-groove MILSPEC conventional land-and-groove with a 5.56 NATO chamber.
Crane: If you're settin' up an AR carbine for somebody, most of the time, are you gonna' recommend the stainless polygonal?
Noveske: Well, it depends. I ask them what they're gonna' do with it. The stainless-barreled uppers and rifles that we sell are a precision carbine. The chrome-lined light carbines are…for the guy that says he's gonna' beat it up, he's gonna' abuse it, he's gonna' train hard, he's gonna' do full-auto mag dumps, that's the gun for that kind of treatment. The guy that's gonna' be sniper, counter-sniper, or anything precision…
Crane: What if you're doin' a lot of…let's say you're gonna' compete in 3-gun with it on semi-auto, and you're just gonna' do a lot of rapid fire semi-auto shooting and stuff like that, then what?
Noveske: Either one's fine. They're both very accurate. I've got groups that people have sent me with both barrels under half an inch at 100 yards, so it's kind of like I'm competing with myself.
Crane: If you're looking at both the stainless barrel and the chrome-lined barrel, what's standard MOA on these guns, on these barrels.
Noveske: Stainless barrels--and I'm not sayin' this from what I've shot. This is reports from customers—The typical end-user report on my stainless barrels is about .6 MOA, and the Light Carbine barrels, most everything I hear is sub-MOA, and that means it can be three quarters of an inch [3/4" MOA] or half an inch [1/2" MOA].
Crane: So stainless is gonna' be a little bit more accurate, but not much.
Noveske: Right, 'cause they're both very accurate, already.
</div></div>
Found that article:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Crane: The barrels that we're talkin' about are Pac-Nor.
Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor's shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor...I used to work there, and now what's goin' on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.
Crane: What type of stainless are they using?
Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.
Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?
Noveske: Let me back up. You can't call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it's gonna' be much different. It's gonna' be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it's a lot harder than any stainless we've ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that's harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.
Crane: And the standard barrel that's being chrome-lined, the non-stainless-steel barrel, what kind of steel is that?
Noveske: That's the same steel that's in the technical data package requirement for the M249.
Crane: And what is that?
Noveske: Well, I'm not gonna' talk about what it is, specfiically.
Crane: O.k., and then you have an Extreme-Duty Barrel, too, right?
Noveske: Right. Now, that Extreme-Duty Barrel, we put on hold because it costs too much to make, and I just don't feel like putting it out there. It's just too expensive.
Crane: Is that a stainless barrel, or is that a chrome-lined standard [carbon] steel barrel?
Noveske: No, that was 17-4 stainless with a Rockwell hardness of 38. It's extremely expensive to make, but we made a bunch, sold 'em all, every body loves 'em, and I haven't made any more because it justs eats up too much tooling.
Crane: Oh, so you basically weren't charging enough money to justify it, essentially?
Noveske: Well, imagine if you had a 40% success rate on something that you made, and all that labor, material that goes into it, and all the tooling, and yes, you might make money, but you have to charge $1,000 for a barrel to make the same money that you make on a $400 barrel. It just didn't make sense. So, you can buy the regular stainless barrel twice and still be under the price of a 17-4 barrel. So we basically stopped makin' 'em. Yes, they're excellent barrels. I have two, myself, personally, but from a realistic product standpoint, it was too much of a Ferarri for me.
Crane: Right. There was no manufacturing protocol that could have been set up to make those more efficiently.
Noveske: Oh, we tried. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars workin' on different approaches, different cuts on the tooling, and last week, even, I just told the guys to stop production on 'em for now, untill I readress it, which I'm a little too busy to focus on...
Crane: How much are those barrels, apiece? 1,000 bucks?
Noveske: Yeah, about 1,000 bucks.
Crane: That's pretty crazy, huh?
Noveske: Yeah, that's why there's no point, right now, even really talkin' about 'em.
Noveske: [Not sure where the interviewer is headed] Well,...
Crane: I'm not messin' with ya'. I'm serious. If I'm gonna' write an article on Noveske, and what's special about your guns, just from a perspective of why do I want a Noveske vs. let's say [another maker's] package. [Noveske, at this point, assesses any biases Crane may have to make sure Crane is coming from a neutral perspective re the questioning, in order to figure out how much to share and how much to hold back. The interviewer assures him that the interviewer is neutral on it, and isn't loyal to any other makers/builders.]
Noveske: I guess...I wanna' know how much information to share and how much to hold back, I guess is what I'm...
Crane: Well, it depends. I mean, if there's stuff that you want to tell me off the record, you just have to tell me, well David, this is something for you to know, but it's off the record, or this is publishable, and you just have to compartmentalize with me. And, if you tell me not to publish something, I won't.
Noveske: O.k., that's good. I just, I'm trying to get a feel, here, so...and, by the way, I'm real greatful for the last article you put up on your website [DefenseReview.com]. I got a lot of traffic to my website from that, and it was a very nice gesture on your part, and I appreciate it.
Crane: Well, you're very welcome. And, to this day, by the way, that article, if you type in Noveske on the web, my article [on Noveske Rifleworks] comes in on the first page on Google and various other search engines.
Noveske: Great. Very good. I appreciate that. [Some more conversation on this.]
Crane: So, talk to me.
Noveske: Here is the thing I hate doing, which is the used car sales pitch, o.k., 'cause I pretty much don't really do it very often. But, what separates my product from the rest of the products out there, is…the obvious thing's the barrel, and, from start to finish, the barrel goes through more inspection and testing than any other barrel out there that I'm aware of. From the point we pull the steel of the trailer in 12-foot bars, we instantly hardness test and serialize each bar. Then, every bar throughout the entire production process is numbered accordingly to its parent bar. And then, like I said, we designed all the tooling so the diameters on the drills, the bore reamers, the hand-lapping process, the button that does the button-rifling is our design, and it's an improvement over conventional polygonal [rifling] in that you get an extended barrel life over conventional polygonal [rifling]. In fact, I've never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out. In a year and two months, there's never been a report of one of my new buttons…the new types of rifling types [barrels] shooting out. We designed that new rifling for our Extreme Duty Machine Gun Barrel Project for the M249 and the Mk46, and we had so much success with that new design that I quickly applied it to all of our M4/M16-type rifles. So, the new rifling is 1-in-7 twist. It appears, when you look down the barrel, as a 6-land-and-groove, and what we did was we adjusted the angles on the sides of the land to give us the optimal performance. After rifling, there's a stress-relief process that is designed to pull out all the stress without losing any hardness. The barrels are then trued-up so that when we put 'em in our CNC-contouring lathe, the contour is 100% concentric to the bore, so that you don't have an strange harmonics when the bullet travels down the barrel, and that's part of the process of…the contouring process is…I'm pretty protective of it, so that's about all I want to say is that it's very accurate. And then, when we go to chambering, it's a chambering process that I developed as an employee of Pac-Nor, and I looked at how they were chambering barrels, and I saw the logic in it, and I found ways to improve it. The reamers are all custom-made for me as far as the grind, the angles, the number of flutes. The way we chamber, you never get any scoring on the lands forward of the throat like most other people have to deal with, because our chips are forced out the back. The end result is a beautiful, highly polished chamber. Every barrel is individually inspected to ensure against or prevent reamer wear and have an undersized chamber. They all get gauged on every point, and the design of the chamber is a design I developed after many different evolutions. This was designed to work…to do full-auto mag dumps with [Black Hills] MK 262 Mod 1 [77gr Open-Tip Match (OTM) 5.56x45mm ammo], and now you can sit there and pour as much ammo as you can through the gun on full-auto, and the thing that's gonna' fail is the gas tube. We haven't had any stuck chambers since I came up with the recent chamber, which is called the Noveske…the acronym, which we write on the barrel is "NMm0", and that stands for Noveske Match Mod 0. It's a chamber that gives you 100% reliability with as much retained accuracy as possible. You can have a more accurate chamber design, but you sacrifice battle-grade reliability. You can get stuck cases and other things with different chambers. So, from the chamber, our barrel is hardness-tested again, just to make sure we didn't lose any hardness in the heat-treating process, and every barrel is serial-numbered at that point. So, now, all the information about the barrel, the heat-treat lot, the packing slip number, the bar number, all that information is now attached to the barrel with a 6-digit serial number, and it goes through the rest of the process with all the information attached to it by that number. And, we keep a log book with every end-user and every bit of information, just in case there was a problem with one customer's barrel, we can track down all the related barrels and pull 'em in in an efficient manner. And we've never had to do that, but I can if I need to.
Crane: And all the barrels are polygonal-rifled, right?
Noveske: All the stainless barrels have…that button that we designed, I call "Improved Polygonal". The polygonal that I used in the past and that some other people are using has one shortcoming, which is an unpredictable end-of-service life. It goes from shooting great to tumbling bullets. Our barrel now gives you a predictable end-of-service life. As it's shooting out, it's going to open up in group before the bullets tumble.
Crane: And how many rounds are you gonna' get out of that?
Noveske: I don't know. I know of barrels that are over 15,000 rounds still in service. So, I don't know how long they'll go, but I know that they're going quite a ways.
Crane: What about the chrome-lined barrels? Are those polygonal, too?
Noveske: Those are strictly made to the TDP for the M249, so they're a 6-land-and-groove MILSPEC conventional land-and-groove with a 5.56 NATO chamber.
Crane: If you're settin' up an AR carbine for somebody, most of the time, are you gonna' recommend the stainless polygonal?
Noveske: Well, it depends. I ask them what they're gonna' do with it. The stainless-barreled uppers and rifles that we sell are a precision carbine. The chrome-lined light carbines are…for the guy that says he's gonna' beat it up, he's gonna' abuse it, he's gonna' train hard, he's gonna' do full-auto mag dumps, that's the gun for that kind of treatment. The guy that's gonna' be sniper, counter-sniper, or anything precision…
Crane: What if you're doin' a lot of…let's say you're gonna' compete in 3-gun with it on semi-auto, and you're just gonna' do a lot of rapid fire semi-auto shooting and stuff like that, then what?
Noveske: Either one's fine. They're both very accurate. I've got groups that people have sent me with both barrels under half an inch at 100 yards, so it's kind of like I'm competing with myself.
Crane: If you're looking at both the stainless barrel and the chrome-lined barrel, what's standard MOA on these guns, on these barrels.
Noveske: Stainless barrels--and I'm not sayin' this from what I've shot. This is reports from customers—The typical end-user report on my stainless barrels is about .6 MOA, and the Light Carbine barrels, most everything I hear is sub-MOA, and that means it can be three quarters of an inch [3/4" MOA] or half an inch [1/2" MOA].
Crane: So stainless is gonna' be a little bit more accurate, but not much.
Noveske: Right, 'cause they're both very accurate, already.
</div></div>
Re: Kreiger vs Noveske
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kreiger = single point cut rifled, match-grade barrels
Noveske = pull-button rifled, match-grade barrels. Also remember Noveske is the middle man. Pac-Nor makes the barrels, Noveske finishes them and adds his mark-up.
Lastly, if you stake any claim in GAP's opinions, they use cut rifling exclusively. They say button rifled barrels runs the risk of uneven twist rates resulting from button slippage. This is caused by lubrication issues, or uneven steel densities. Neither of these variations are a problem when the cut rifling technique is used. Also, cut-rifling has the reputation of lasting longer because it creates less stress in the steel.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of button-rifled barrels can shoot as well as cut-rifled ones, but keep in mind you'll never hear of a cut-rifled barrel shooting poorly . . .
If this sounds biased, that is because it is. At the end of the day, I frankly loathe Noveske. I just can't understand what value he brings to his products that command such prices. I guy is a marketing genius.
</div></div>
Interesting post. Before you start making assumptions of one barrelmaking method or another, you might want to do a little more hands on research rather than relying on the tinternet goss.
If the buttoning machine is set up to positive transfer rotation to the tool, or guide the tool, you usually don't end up with uneven twists. You can use leader bars, rack and pinion, sine bar type, to accomplish this, and yes you use the proper lubrication. But poor lubrication practice often ends up more in galls or lumps in the rifling or a broken tool rather than uneven twist. Whatever 'they' say, and George would back me on this I imagine, it depends the company, the machine they have to do the job, and the barrelmaking knowledge and expertise of the staff overall that will determine the quality the end user expects.
I've been making cut rifled barrels for a lot of years, and know a lot of cut riflers/buttoneers/hammerforgers in the business. None of us would say you would <span style="font-weight: bold">never </span>hear a cut rifled barrel would not shoot. We are all dependent on our raw stock, sometimes you get a live one that won't settle down.
Ya'll are on the right track, just don't try to read too much into the barrelmaking side of it. Like polygonal rifling, just because it isn't glock or hk drawing, doesn't mean I or Noveske, or Pac-Nor can't call it polygon rifling. Ratchet is a whole new ball game, each of us has a different terminoligy for ratcheted rifling. I usually junked those barrels, wish I would have known back then they were a hit. hahah.. The way I could tell the good barrelmakers was the gaging they used. I would pick Krieger over Noveske just for the fact I know what krieger uses to measure bores. Air gaging doesn't mean much to me btw, reason I use air gaging is it's easier to teach QC to run air gaging than the tools that tell you what's going on in the barrel..
my .02
JR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kreiger = single point cut rifled, match-grade barrels
Noveske = pull-button rifled, match-grade barrels. Also remember Noveske is the middle man. Pac-Nor makes the barrels, Noveske finishes them and adds his mark-up.
Lastly, if you stake any claim in GAP's opinions, they use cut rifling exclusively. They say button rifled barrels runs the risk of uneven twist rates resulting from button slippage. This is caused by lubrication issues, or uneven steel densities. Neither of these variations are a problem when the cut rifling technique is used. Also, cut-rifling has the reputation of lasting longer because it creates less stress in the steel.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of button-rifled barrels can shoot as well as cut-rifled ones, but keep in mind you'll never hear of a cut-rifled barrel shooting poorly . . .
If this sounds biased, that is because it is. At the end of the day, I frankly loathe Noveske. I just can't understand what value he brings to his products that command such prices. I guy is a marketing genius.
</div></div>
Interesting post. Before you start making assumptions of one barrelmaking method or another, you might want to do a little more hands on research rather than relying on the tinternet goss.
If the buttoning machine is set up to positive transfer rotation to the tool, or guide the tool, you usually don't end up with uneven twists. You can use leader bars, rack and pinion, sine bar type, to accomplish this, and yes you use the proper lubrication. But poor lubrication practice often ends up more in galls or lumps in the rifling or a broken tool rather than uneven twist. Whatever 'they' say, and George would back me on this I imagine, it depends the company, the machine they have to do the job, and the barrelmaking knowledge and expertise of the staff overall that will determine the quality the end user expects.
I've been making cut rifled barrels for a lot of years, and know a lot of cut riflers/buttoneers/hammerforgers in the business. None of us would say you would <span style="font-weight: bold">never </span>hear a cut rifled barrel would not shoot. We are all dependent on our raw stock, sometimes you get a live one that won't settle down.
Ya'll are on the right track, just don't try to read too much into the barrelmaking side of it. Like polygonal rifling, just because it isn't glock or hk drawing, doesn't mean I or Noveske, or Pac-Nor can't call it polygon rifling. Ratchet is a whole new ball game, each of us has a different terminoligy for ratcheted rifling. I usually junked those barrels, wish I would have known back then they were a hit. hahah.. The way I could tell the good barrelmakers was the gaging they used. I would pick Krieger over Noveske just for the fact I know what krieger uses to measure bores. Air gaging doesn't mean much to me btw, reason I use air gaging is it's easier to teach QC to run air gaging than the tools that tell you what's going on in the barrel..
my .02
JR
