Lake city match brass with rib at base?

[Absolution]

So I have been asking my self this question for awhile. I have 23 pieces of brass that have a rib all the way around the base I think 1/2mm up from base. I believe the headstamp says LC MATCH 86. It's extremely hard at the base when I'm using a fl die and lube. Any info on this what they did it?



I'm at school right now ill upload pics when I get home.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Lake City did this to id M-852 Ammo.This ammo used the 168 SMK bullet.It was not authorized for use in combat at that time.So they marked the cases so the soldiers could tell this ammo was not for combat use.

Regards,Mike

 

[Absolution]

Thanks, figured it was something close to that.

 

[Absolution]

I would like to find more o this brass just because its different

 

[lightman]

Its good brass, but they only used those type marks on a few years. The ones that I have are from the early 80's. I think the others are correct about the marks being on loads using SMK's. Lightman

 

[ksthomas]

You guys wanna watch it in reloading these cases. The cannelure to the M852 cases (and yes, that's what these are), was rolled onto the case body right at about the point where head separations tend to occur, if you don't watch your shoulder set back closely enough. Bear in mind, Lake City never intended these, or any other of their cases to be reloaded. The fact that the addition of the cannelure at this location would reduce these cases reloadability simply isn't something they were remotely concerned with. Just a little something to note, and to keep a close eye on if you decide to use these cases. In the cases (no pun intended) of the old M118 and new M118LR brass, there is no cannelure, making these cases preferable for the handloader. Just a heads up here . . ..

 

[Absolution]

You guys wanna watch it in reloading these cases. The cannelure to the M852 cases (and yes, that's what these are), was rolled onto the case body right at about the point where head separations tend to occur, if you don't watch your shoulder set back closely enough. Bear in mind, Lake City never intended these, or any other of their cases to be reloaded. The fact that the addition of the cannelure at this location would reduce these cases reloadability simply isn't something they were remotely concerned with. Just a little something to note, and to keep a close eye on if you decide to use these cases. In the cases (no pun intended) of the old M118 and new M118LR brass, there is no cannelure, making these cases preferable for the handloader. Just a heads up here . . ..

Good point.

 

[leid]

OP,
M852 was made for quite a while, at least '81 thru '96 from what I saw. I used M852 whenever available because it was a very accurate 7.62mm loading. Kevin's post above is spot-on: Several knurled commercial cases have separated on me when reloaded with one separating at the knurl on the initial firing of the factory loading. So I won't reload M852 casings especially for use in the M14 rifle because of the knurl. All M852 boxes I saw thru the end of production were marked "NOT FOR COMBAT USE" which was & still is a bit confusing. SMK based military cartridges to include M852 were given the green light for use as combat cartridges in 1990 by Col. Parks, JAG. M118/M118 SPECIAL BALL/M118LR cartridges do not have the knurled case and M118LR is 175gr. SMK based. HTH.

 

[ksthomas]

Leid,

Hays Parks submitted the findings that authorized the OTM bullets long after the M852 had been in service as a match round, after doing some work with Marty Fackler out the Wound Ballistics lab at The Persidio. The M852 came about due to the long standard practice of making "Mexican Match" ammunition by pulling the 173 FMJBTs on the old M118 rounds for use in competition. The practice was so prevalent at that time that it was virtually SOP among the various MTUs throughout the army, that LC finally just made it official and introduced the M852 as a standard item. The HP configuration made it a strictly non-combat round, presumably banned by the Hague accords, that no one really questioned the issue until Hays and Marty did the groundwork. The issue with the M118 was poor accuracy, though it was always a fairly decent round at 1,000. The M852s fell on their face at about 850-900 yards, always the problem with the 168 SMK. The desire to incorporate the accuracy of the M852, with the long range performance of the M118 was what lead to the development of the 175 SMK, which was designed specifically at the behest of Lake City, and in conjunction with them. Ihave no idea what sort of inventory of the M852 LC still had on hand when the ruling came down from Jag, but knowing their production capacity, I suspect it was considerable. No surprise then that there were still quantities of knurled-cased M852 rounds showing up for many years after. The M852 was dropped after the M118LR hit the lines, as it was by then redundant and served no purpose. Funny story to come out of that one, too, in that the M118LR nomenclature was assigned simply to avoid the huge governmental headaches associated with introducing a new cartridge design with a "new" designation. Yeah, major pain there.

 

[Xcount]

Kevin,
I always enjoy your posts, nothing better than reading it from the guy that was in the middle of it all. I was lucky enough to get half a case of M852 to shoot in my NG armorer built M1A and i'll tell you what it was amazing how well that stuff shoots. Honestly, if a M1A won't shoot sub moa with M852 there is a rifle or shooter problem.

Do you think that the loss of M852 contributed to the AR15 overtaking the M1A in service rifle shooting? I always heard guys saying M118LR didn't shoot as well in M1A's and I found that to be true in mine.

 

[leid]

Good info Kevin. I was one of the guys making the "Mexican Match" M118 topped with the Sierra Competition 168gr. International H.P. bullet back in the late '70s. Time line I have in my notes is M118: thru '81, M852: '81 thru '96 with M118 SPECIAL BALL also being made at the same time as the accurized combat round, & the 175gr. SMK (pre-M118LR) loading starting with the Navy CRANE order in '95. The best info came from Ray over at cartridgecollectors.org Thanks!

 

[Grump]

You guys wanna watch it in reloading these cases. The cannelure to the M852 cases (and yes, that's what these are), was rolled onto the case body right at about the point where head separations tend to occur, if you don't watch your shoulder set back closely enough. Bear in mind, Lake City never intended these, or any other of their cases to be reloaded. The fact that the addition of the cannelure at this location would reduce these cases reloadability simply isn't something they were remotely concerned with. Just a little something to note, and to keep a close eye on if you decide to use these cases. In the cases (no pun intended) of the old M118 and new M118LR brass, there is no cannelure, making these cases preferable for the handloader. Just a heads up here . . ..

Not quite true in practice, nor in history.
Pretty sure the OP meant either 1/2 inch OR 12mm.

As for ksthomas:
"Match" rifle ammo was indeed intended for reloading, from the first time they omitted the primer crimp.

At least that's what the 1960 National Matches booklet passed out to all competitors said. Just like the case today with the Palma Team, there were a lot of reloading benches around in days of yore. My Dad used some in the USMC, which were also available to just the troops as well as the teams.

On that horrible, terrible, no-good, verynasty cannelure being a weak spot for reloading, that is an unfortunate coincidence of no effect IME. Regular USGI Match brass breaks at the very same spot, at the very same number of reloads, as the LC86 M852 I'm about to retire from service. In fact, newer (to me) FC cases do too.

Those longitudinal grooves are not very deep at all.

So me, I don't care about any differences between old and new M118 and M852 brass. At least they break 1/2 inch or so up. Lapua cases break scary-close to the web. I inspect the heck out of those now.

"Special Ball" was the budget-cutters' bone thrown to the military teams when some moron decided to buy fewer Sierra 168 SMKs AND cheapen up the manufacturing. I've heard what claims to be a first-hand report that some Colonel insisted that there was no need to segregate the 173-gr bullets according to what final die they came out of on the 4-position machine into separate lots, which rolled back the prior history of the old M118 ammo getting a tiny bit better almost every year. THEN they decided to use regular brass and crimp the primers. So IMNSHO it was really Ball ammo in Ball brass (NO NATO circle-cross mark though) that was "special" by it being loaded with a 1,000-yard capable bullet with 1930s accuracy potential. People tended to grumble a LOT when that brown box stuff was issued at Leg Matches.

 

[Grump]

XCount:

From what I could see, these things pushed the AR rifles to the fore in over-the-course shooting:

1. Military teams were increasingly ordered to use the current-issue platform.

2. Long-loaded ammo for the slow fire stages was approved for use. The game jumped the shark then, AFAIC. This let the 80-grain loads get fully developed, which were not much more wind-sensitive than M852.

3. DCM was privatized and funding for ammo issue at matches went away. Bring your own ammo = load good bullets, no more substandard 173s, OR M193 (As I recall, 5.56 Ball ammo was issued for only a short while), so the dreaded "mouse guns" then always had X-ring at the short lines capable ammo, and the long loads were pretty close to 100% X-ring capable from most rifles on the MR target.

4. With decent ammo the rule for the AR system, shooters discovered easier preservation of NPA in sustained-fire strings, and though no one I knew talked about it, less recoil = less fatigue = better mental state and shooting performance at 600 at the end of the matches.

5. The AR and its cartridge are much easier to get to shoot less than 1 MOA. A 3/4 MOA rifle-ammo system lets the shooter essentially have a 1.5-inch bigger 10 ring at 200 yards than a shooter with a 1.25 MOA rifle shoots at. Think of all those heartbreak tight 9s you've seen people shoot.

End result of all this was that scores went up when people tried out their friends' ARS (or just bought their own and tried 'em out on the line). Add to that a few dollars saved in powder and especially bullet costs, and for that particular paper-punching game, the AR and its ammo came out on top.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[leid]

Here is a MACRO of an unfired M852 case knurl (headstamp LC 85 MATCH):