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Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor

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CplSnafu

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Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
92C65DE2-20D5-4171-840F-AA85576258A6_zpskenvbi5f.jpg


It exists. If anyone's at SHOT and wants a sample, they're giving them out at the Lapua booth.

I'll take some measurements of loaded round neck diameters in 6.5 and 6 when I get home if anyone is interested.

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lvcreedXGunny Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
I'm interested in the neck thickness and loaded round diameter on the 6.5

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DarksideSix

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
CplSnafu wrote:

92C65DE2-20D5-4171-840F-AA85576258A6_zpskenvbi5f.jpg


It exists. If anyone's at SHOT and wants a sample, they're giving them out at the Lapua booth.

I'll take some measurements of loaded round neck diameters in 6.5 and 6 when I get home if anyone is interested.​
Small primer pocket? Kinda hard to tell from the pic.

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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
Yes, small primer and small flash hole.

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Jimmy31593XGunny Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
Did they give a definitive date when it will be available? What about a price?

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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
The first batch is complete and on it's way over. I asked which vendors are likely to get them and she poined me to some
literature and their three US distributors. Graf & sons was one of them. Their site took a backorder for me for $120 per 100 last night.

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DarksideSix
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
CplSnafu wrote:
The first batch is complete and on it's way over. I asked which vendors are likely to get them and she poined me to some
literature and their three US distributors. Graf & sons was one of them. Their site took a backorder for me for $120 per 100 last night.​
Sweet, thanks! I just ordered some as well.

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shoot4fun
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
I've had really good service from my Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass but have 200 pieces of the Lapua on backorder at Graf's. I am most interested in seeing what improvements the small primer can make and intend on trying it with the CCI450 small magnums.
I did inquire with Kevin Thomas at Lapua as to actually neck thickness Lapua chose but he said he had none on hand and was hoping Lapua brought some to SHOT for him to explore.
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lvcreedXGunny Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
Does any one have measurements on the neck yet?

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padom
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017 Last edited 01/19/2017 by padom
Ill stick with my $70 Lapua 308 Palma converted and neck turned to 0.015 vs Lapua 6.5cm at $120 + shipping. I dont mind making it and at $50+ less per 100.

I stocked up when Brownells was running that awesone Lapua sale last month along with 260rem.

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nilescoyote
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
Awesome!

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nexusfireXFirst Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
padom wrote:
Ill stick with my $70 Lapua 308 Palma converted and neck turned to 0.015 vs Lapua 6.5cm at $120 + shipping. I dont mind making it and at $50+ less per 100.

I stocked up when Brownells was running that awesone Lapua sale last month along with 260rem.​
What is the process for doing this?

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Jimmy31593XGunny Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
Most people hydroform, neck turn, then trim to length.

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mojavejim
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/19/2017
I'm a day late "out of stock" , they went quick,

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BRU15XSergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/20/2017
mojavejim wrote:

I'm a day late "out of stock" , they went quick,​
They aren't available yet, at Grafs you can still add them to your cart and it will allow you to backorder them even though it says out of stock.

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shoot4fun
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/20/2017
I look forward to getting those measurements, especially the neck thickness.
I don't mind a little "clean up" room but prefer to be able to use no-turn brass in my 6.5CM.
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plinkrXCorporal
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/20/2017 Last edited 01/20/2017 by plinkr
It would be interesting to know when their total 6.5 Creemoor production exceeds the total 6.5x47.

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BlackbrushXGunny Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/20/2017
(1 vote)
plinkr wrote:
It would be interesting to know when their 6.5 Creemoor production exceeds the 6.5x47.​
probably right now.....

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mojavejim

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/20/2017
BRU15, I figured it out . I know it not in stock yet but last night it wouldn't let me "ad to Cart" . Today it let me order a few hundred. Thanks

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HawaiianKansasXPrivate
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
Tag

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Kadams1563XSergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
Most people
Ordered from grafs over a month ago. I'm willing to bet most people will not receive them on the first order.

I know of probably 10 guys who ordered 500+ cases from grafs.
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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017 Last edited 01/22/2017 by CplSnafu
Lapua rep said an entire shipping container is going to grafs only. I'll cross my fingers. Lol

Here's the good stuff. I took two sample lapua cases and seated lapua 123's in them, then measured. Did the same with virgin hornady cases. I insured all the bullets were exactly the same diameter.

I then necked them to 6mm and seated 105 Hybrids

339E9C54-10BE-47ED-BC5F-7B34EDDC4BEF_zpswx3q5k5l.jpg


Shoulder diameter .458 lap .457 hor
Web diameter .468 .466
Headspace 1.573 1.576
(.350 hornady tool)

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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
Hornady on top
B3119627-7951-4707-A42F-C4CF767C3A04_zpsiabiilbu.jpg


Extractor grooves diameters are .4055 for the lapua and .3925 for the hornady

The hornady's extractor groove ends up on the web about .030 higher.

Way more meat in the case head on the lapua, even if you discount the small primer. This is going to be a much stronger case than hornady's.

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Kadams1563XSergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
creedmoorsports.com/category/Brass

That place already had it in stock and it sold out in about 30 seconds.
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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017 Last edited 01/21/2017 by CplSnafu
Doesnt surprise me that they got the first batch. Seem to recall they had some part to play in the release of 6.5 Creedmoor back in the day as well.

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bradbear88X267 MONTHS
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
What about case volume between the hornady and the lapua

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Jimmy31593XGunny Sergeant
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
Pretty big headspace difference

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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/21/2017
I'll check tomorrow.

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wilson1911XPrivate
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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/22/2017
Is there any literature on what the case pressure is supposed to be ? After looking at the pics, there is no way it can be the same as a Hornady case.

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CplSnafu

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Re: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor
01/22/2017
Same two cases for each. Remember these are now necked to 6mm. I'd really rather do this with fired cases but here goes. Also, the hornady cases were bumped back to the same headspace as the lapua. I'll add case length in there also. The hornady's started out longer, both brands grew with the necking and the hornady's remain longer. I used my chargmaster scale, nothing fancy.

Lapua
Case weight/ water weight/ case length

#1 165.2/50.8/1.917

#2 165.2/50.7/ 1.918

Hornady
Case weight/ water weight/ case length

#1 150.0/ 51.1/ 1.920

#2 150.4/ 51.2/ 1.921
 
Got my confirmation today that my brass shipped. Is much faster than I thought!


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Got my shipping notice and tracking number around noon. Should be here to the ranch on Tuesday, some time! Can't wait! I'm so curious to see whether the small primer makes a significant difference. I know that Lapua credits the 'inherent' accuracy that so many talk about with the 6.5x47L to the use of small primers. Sure hope that this new brass brings that same inherent accuracy to the 6.5CM. I've got over a month until the ranch fills up with turkey hunters; and I plan to use the free time (and great weather) to do a lot of playing with this new brass!
 
Mine came today. They even sent me a nice coffee travel mug.
25d656548a174fc8710d6f9d6053f5ab.jpg



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SouthTXBowhunter said:
Got my shipping notice and tracking number around noon. Should be here to the ranch on Tuesday, some time! Can't wait! I'm so curious to see whether the small primer makes a significant difference. I know that Lapua credits the 'inherent' accuracy that so many talk about with the 6.5x47L to the use of small primers. Sure hope that this new brass brings that same inherent accuracy to the 6.5CM. I've got over a month until the ranch fills up with turkey hunters; and I plan to use the free time (and great weather) to do a lot of playing with this new brass!
Click to expand...
I am not sure that the small primer makes 47L accurate. The small primer lends itself to longer brass life.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 
I'd love to know if people will be able to push their loads harder with this brass. Also if someone could do a test similar to what area 419 did for the alpha brass, that would be awesome.
 
I've got some of my brass loaded up and plan to get some velocity comparisons against new Hornady brass also loaded with the same components.

Couple things I noted...

In my box of 100 the weight range with Lapua was 165.3-166.0 grains = .7 tenths and the Lapua neck sizes averaged about .0015 larger than Hornady. (you don't want to even know the weight range of the Hornady brass)

To get the same .003" neck tension on both brands I was using a .287 bushing on Hornady brass and a .289 on the Lapua brass... this after running all the cases through a neck expander mandrel (.263") to iron out any issues with case mouths followed by a pass through the full length sizing die with the appropriate bushing size.

More to come in a day or two.
 
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I have 500 cases getting delivered today.

I have a .288 and a .289 bushing. I hope they will get the correct neck tension for me.


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Very interested in how these hold up and if they can be pushed harder. I was running Hornady brass in my 6.5cm semi and it just gets beat up quick and pockets go pretty quickly in the semi. I have converted some 1xLC 7.62 brass over to 6.5cm as well as some new Lapua 308 Palma. I did the conversion before these new Lapua 6.5cm cases started shipping. Waiting on my new 6.5cm barrel to get me AR10 back together than will do some testing to see if the thicker brass and smaller primer pockets can be pushed harder than the Hornady brass.
 
I personally would not run the Lapua in the Semi. That's too harsh for such expensive cases.

I would stick with LC .308 and just convert them. It would take longer but surely save in the pocketbook.


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Kadams1563 said:
I personally would not run the Lapua in the Semi. That's too harsh for such expensive cases.

I would stick with LC .308 and just convert them. It would take longer but surely save in the pocketbook.


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Click to expand...

Even though my 6.5 Creedmoor AR-10 is very easy on brass, I agree with you. Since I've got about 900 pcs of Hornady brass I figure I'll just use that for my AR-10 and use the Lapua brass in my RPR. Plus it'll make it easy to keep track of what loads go in which gun since the headstamp will be different.

 
Kadams1563 said:
I personally would not run the Lapua in the Semi. That's too harsh for such expensive cases.

I would stick with LC .308 and just convert them. It would take longer but surely save in the pocketbook.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this. I ruined so much of my Lapua converted brass when fired through my AR trying to find that perfect load between speed and accuracy. I always include a warning statement to guys that buy my brass to use caution when loading for AR's
 
I just ordered two boxes from Mile High Shooting. He said they had about 100 boxes they just got the other day. That's the only place I could find any in stock.
 
IMG_20170217_185008_612-1.jpg


So it appears that like Lapua vs Winchester in a 308, so is the 6.5 Creedmoor Lapua vs Hornady... in other words I think dropping the load back .2 grains will put me where I wish to be.

Forgive my 10 shot groups... I could have done better prone but didn't wish to lay in the mud. Bench shooting has never been my strong point, LOL, and the slight horizontal wobble I was seeing in the scope translated to the target.
 
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Fired on a stiller action with standard size firing pin, primers are CCI Benchrest BR4, no issues a grain above where I want to be.

IMG_20170217_171330_309-1.jpg
 
Supersubes said:
As soon as i can get my butt to the range I'll let you know. I never had much issue with 6.5x47 in my AW, and I dont expect issues here either.
Click to expand...

Interested in how this works in a lfp AI as well
 
Went out and shot my LRI built 700 in 6.5 CM using this new brass. 42.5 RL 17 w/ 140 ELD. My velocity jumped 50 fps to 2858 and my SD was 5. With CCI450 my primers were cratering noticably. With GM205, minimal cratering. The CCI were 5 fps faster. No punctures.

Edited to add barrel is a 24" Rock Creek with 60 RDS down the pipe
 
I finally got out to test the new brass. Rifle is an AW with 24" broughton 5C. I cut the chamber with a PT&G saami 6.5 Creedmoor reamer, which has .199 freebore. The load uses 123 Lapua scenars at .030 jump, BR-4 primers, and virgin brass. The brass was FL sized, and the insides of the necks were chamfered. I was careful with charge weights, but nothing was sorted or trued. That goes for bullets too.

Below is an OCW I shot with 42-44.5 grains of H4350. The important stuff is in red. The small text in black pen is the case diameters below the web, before and after, followed by the velocity for that shot. Looks like I forgot to write in the individual velocities for 43.5 gr. They were 2992, 2990, and 2986.Velocities are from a Labradar. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170223\/b0b9a9ae13a1717e3157d1936d70c056.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170223\/e54d13be05ba4818514c504bf170b260.jpg"}[/IMG2]


These are in the same order that they appear on paper. The first round for 44 gr(second row up from the bottom, far left) required a little extra pressure for bolt lift. All others were great. No ejector marks. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170223\/04df5aab95e76a5342a4dd591017855c.jpg"}[/IMG2]





This pic shows my average firing pin strikes with large primers in this gun using Hornady brass and a 43 gr charge of h4350(same 123 bullet). About one in ten looks like that one on the left, but I haven't had a pierced primer in years. In today's test, not one of them looked like that. I personally have never bought into the large vs small pin theory. Sure, bushing the firing pin helps, but that's because you're curing the protrusion, pin tip profile, and pin to bolt face fit at the same time. The pin size is the least important of those factors. Can't ignore peak pressures as well. Just my opinion. My firing pin is shaped like a sheet metal punch with very sharp edges, and a large face radius. What looks to be craters around the strike are actually those sharp corners of the pin protruding below the primer surface. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170223\/1efc9ec5f4375f22b36291cb9fc113c1.jpg"}[/IMG2]



















These are the velocities with Hornady brass using an identical load (fired on different day):


123 lapua at 2.174(.030 jump)
H4350
BR-2
virgin Hornady brass

@54 degrees

42.5 2907 (-29 fps)
43 2956 (-9 fps) I have lots of data on this charge from another test and overall average is closer to 2940
43.5 2973 (-17 fps)
44 3013 (-4 fps) these had intermittent light sticky bolt.
44.5 3042 (+5 fps) these all had sticky bolt and ejector marks



The test above used up my current lot of h4350. Below were two 3 shot test groups of a new lot. 123 lapua, .030 jump, virgin lapua, br-4 primer. Great accuracy. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170223\/0616bb5aa1f0284760b3ecdc1e6882f3.jpg"}[/IMG2]







Here's how the case measurements are taken if anyone is wondering. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170224\/74428afd1b8ab6a7d775dd3a8d55f10b.jpg"}[/IMG2]







Hornady brass expansion numbers with the 123 lapua and 140 eld. I was taught that this area should have no more than .001 of expansion. Hodgdon lists .0008 as max in their guide iirc. The way brass varies though, I dont think it can be applied across all makes. The hornady hits the .001 expansion mark at 43gr, and grows from there. The lapua hits .001 at 43gr also, but stabilizes between there and 44gr, then begins growing again. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170224\/d3d9c60c94a539a6a3f63ce567719794.jpg"}[/IMG2]
 
Last edited:
I posted water weight earlier in this thread, but the brass was unfired. Here are the fired numbers.

Hornady (case weight/water weight):

154.1/ 53.1
154.6/ 53.1
155.4/ 52.9

case lengths were all 1.914'

Lapua

168.8/ 52.3
168.2/ 52.4
168.7/ 52.3

case lengths were all 1.911'
 
Thanks for the review and info Supersubes! That is what I was hoping for. I'm gonna give it a whirl here in a couple of months.
 
If anyone knows where there is some brass in stock please pm me. I waited too long and it looks like it has all dried up.
 
cabelas has it in stock for $119.99 and has $5 shipping at $99 min.
 
Some great info so far!

nexusfire said:
I am not sure that the small primer makes 47L accurate. The small primer lends itself to longer brass life.

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Click to expand...

I don't KNOW that their small primer pocket and 1.5mm flash hole makes the difference but I've heard some folks say that before. Lapua, themselves, attribute some of the accuracy of the 47L to the primer setup - check the 5th paragraph of their announcement of the 6.5CM brass: http://www.lapua.com/en/headlines/335/6.5-Creedmoor-is-here! I'm still playing with it and will have an opportunity to do a bunch of loading and shooting this weekend.
 
What kind of decap pin are you guys using? Didnt think about that until I loaded them up just now.

Flash hole .059
Lyman pin .070
Lee pin .065
RCBS pin .060
 
Until I modify mine or get one from hornady, i'll be using my sinclair decap die which has the small pin. most die makers have small pins if they make dies for the small flash hole cases like 6br ot 6.5x47.
 
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I use a Sinclair decapping die. If using a Redding 6.5 Creedmoor die Type S Bushing Die, order this from Brownells or MidwayUSA: Product# 11263 Redding Type S Decapping Assembly - 6.5mmx47 Lapua.
 
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I use a Sinclair decapping die. If using a Redding 6.5 Creedmoor die Type S Bushing Die, order this from Brownells or MidwayUSA: Product# 11263 Redding Type S Decapping Assembly - 6.5mmx47 Lapua.
 
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Clownbuster said:
I use a Sinclair decapping die. If using a Redding 6.5 Creedmoor die Type S Bushing Die, order this from Brownells or MidwayUSA: Product# 11263 Redding Type S Decapping Assembly - 6.5mmx47 Lapua.
Click to expand...

I have a Redding type S die and the pin is small enough to fit through the flash hole. I just picked it up last spring so about a year ago. Wonder if the switched the size and made them smaller than older ones.


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Clownbuster said:
I use a Sinclair decapping die. If using a Redding 6.5 Creedmoor die Type S Bushing Die, order this from Brownells or MidwayUSA: Product# 11263 Redding Type S Decapping Assembly - 6.5mmx47 Lapua.
Click to expand...

Got one on the way, thanks!
 
What kind of variation change do you guys expect to see decrease as a result of the small-primer setup here?
 
I am anxious to see how many loading you may be able to get out of the 6.5cm brass vs 6.5 cm hornady brass. I started seeing case separation signs after getting 9 loadings with hornady brass.
 
You can get a separation with any brass in one firing if headspace is bad, or just a few firings if your sizing habits aren't right. Your sizing die dimensions, and how that bumps up against your fired case dimensions will play a big part as well. The main thing addressed by these will be very stout case heads and primer pockets. Brass life should be just like what the 6.5x47 guys are getting. For me that was 22 firings by the time that barrel was smoked and I threw them away.
 
This has been covered a bit one or more of these threads(I think there are three at the moment). It's academic though. The primer alone doesnt offer really anything beyond case head strength. Myself and many others had no issue getting single digit SD's with hornady brass. I'm seeing the same with lapua. But with the lapua I get a more uniform neck wall thickness and brick shithouse durability. Loaded to the same pressures as your hornady brass, this will last far longer, which actually makes it cheaper.
 
65x55guy said:
Yes. What improvement is expected?
Click to expand...

Below are posts from myself and Supersubes regarding this in another thread:

From Clownbuster:
After 20,000+ casings of converted Lapua brass sold and 3000+ personal firings, feedback from clients are mixed regarding large primer vs. small primer. Myself and guys I run with were using my small primer "Palma" brass, for the purpose of building higher pressure loads, up to considered "nuclear" velocity hunting and accuracy loads. All variables being equal, I did not find one more inheritantly "accurate" than the other.

Depending on what your intended purposes for the brass and your rifle (assuming a bolt-action), here's what we learned from Lapua "Palma" small primer brass:

Pros:
-More firings before primers pockets start to loosen up for guys developing high pressure and "Nuclear" loads (if that's an intended purpose).
-Cases holistically hold up better to the abuse reaching for the higher velocity accuracy nodes
-Reports of smaller ES/SD (again, all variables being equal). However, this has been disproven from my experience.

Cons:
-A few recorded ignition issues in extreme cold weather (Not personally verified). Appropriate powder choice is critical in this environment.

Neutral:
-Does not require a bushed firing pin assembly.

Guys were buying both the standard brass for their normal precision loading so they get the life out of their brass (over 30 loadings), and would buy small primer "Palma" brass for their super high pressure, precision hunting loads. These loads are hard on brass so development will chew into your lifespan.[/QUOTE

Supersubes reply:
I'd agree with all of that. I never had an issue running .260's with various sources of brass. Never converted lapua anything to .260, but never struggled with velocity spreads either. The small primer/large primer debate is largley a theoretical argument with "inherent" accuracy, which is something I just dont buy into given the tactical precision game we participate in(not benchrest). The small primer does give a quantifiable strength increase though, as you said. For me, that just means I can run the cases a good long time in the realm of where a creedmoor should be run. Hotrodding it to be something it isn't, and gaining a click or two of elevation at 1000 while sacrificing a 1000 rounds of barrel life just doesnt make any sense. The animals dont die any quicker and the hits dont come any easier. The lapua brass allows one to run exactly as they did before with more uniform cases and much greater brass life.

Hope this helped answer your question!

Sanford Grasseth (Clownbuster)
 
Thank you. I appreciate the practical perspective. I've currently got about 300 pcs of LC brass converted down to 6.5 CM. Ive run my hornady brass to the end of its life (pretty short) and am going to try the LC and see how it goes. If it doesn't live up to expectations then I intend to place an order for some better brass.
 
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