Have anyone used the 308 Palma brass yet that Lapua is offering with small rifle primer? They say it reduces ES and SD?
- Thread starter One_Feather
- Start date
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
yes, small primers are more consitent, so lower es/sd is pretty much a given. And you can run higher pressures with a small rifle primer.
And one more thing I have noticed (and it could just be me) is small primer cases seem to not strech the primer pocket as much as lard primer cases.
yes, small primers are more consitent, so lower es/sd is pretty much a given. And you can run higher pressures with a small rifle primer.
And one more thing I have noticed (and it could just be me) is small primer cases seem to not strech the primer pocket as much as lard primer cases.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
I did not see the benefit in using the new Lapua Small base brass for several reasons. One being the possibility that the small primer with the powder volume might have problems in adverse conditions. I think I have solved enlarged primer pockets for warm .308 155L loads when I changed powders Varget and RL15 to another. When I used those powders I would reform primer pockets with a Hart reformer every third firing.
The link and quote below is by German Salazar whose opinion carries more weight than mine. He is a renowned Palma shooter which is different that what this forum is about but still good work up. He has alot of other articles on his site that may be of interest. If there was any advantage he would be on it, for the Palma game he neck turns his brass, which IMO is not necessary for Tac. shooters but for him his methods are paying off in the Palma sport.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/01/cartridges-lapua-small-primer-308.html
"My first impression, therefore, is that this was one heck of a lot of work for no noticeable improvement under typical Palma conditions. Elevation dispersion was the same and the scores were about the same. Increased risk of reduced ignition under adverse conditions for no performance gain under ideal conditions is a poor trade-off. I'll shoot this brass again at least once, but I don't see any magic - not that I expected any."
I did not see the benefit in using the new Lapua Small base brass for several reasons. One being the possibility that the small primer with the powder volume might have problems in adverse conditions. I think I have solved enlarged primer pockets for warm .308 155L loads when I changed powders Varget and RL15 to another. When I used those powders I would reform primer pockets with a Hart reformer every third firing.
The link and quote below is by German Salazar whose opinion carries more weight than mine. He is a renowned Palma shooter which is different that what this forum is about but still good work up. He has alot of other articles on his site that may be of interest. If there was any advantage he would be on it, for the Palma game he neck turns his brass, which IMO is not necessary for Tac. shooters but for him his methods are paying off in the Palma sport.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/01/cartridges-lapua-small-primer-308.html
"My first impression, therefore, is that this was one heck of a lot of work for no noticeable improvement under typical Palma conditions. Elevation dispersion was the same and the scores were about the same. Increased risk of reduced ignition under adverse conditions for no performance gain under ideal conditions is a poor trade-off. I'll shoot this brass again at least once, but I don't see any magic - not that I expected any."
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
I'll use with what has worked for the last 15+yrs -
Remington URBR.
4500pcs of virgin URBR on hand will last several life times!!!
I'll use with what has worked for the last 15+yrs -
Remington URBR.
4500pcs of virgin URBR on hand will last several life times!!!
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
I have a friend with an older 308 benchrest rifle. I have seen him shoot and I have shot it. It does really well. He uses the Remington small primer brass. ... When he can find it.
I would be interested in a comparison of the two brands.
I have a friend with an older 308 benchrest rifle. I have seen him shoot and I have shot it. It does really well. He uses the Remington small primer brass. ... When he can find it.
I would be interested in a comparison of the two brands.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
The Lapua site shows it packaged in a box that can also be used to carry loaded ammo.
Interesting concept.
The Lapua site shows it packaged in a box that can also be used to carry loaded ammo.
Interesting concept.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
I know the one of the guys Lapua selected to try the brass and do accuracy testing.
His conclusion was "Good brass, not really better than the other, can't determine a noticeable difference."
In my opinion, being an accomplished Palma shooter, the difference in brass/primers won't be realized while holding your rifle on a sling supported arm.
When trying to appreciate maximum/terminal accuracy, it may make a difference in allowing the sling shooter to have a tighter wind call, or eliminate load induced elevation, but only the top 0.1% of sling shooters "MIGHT" gain benefit.
The other conclusion - the world record BR group, shot w/ Lapua Scenar 308's at the 600yrd line, was not with the new Lapua brass.
FWIW
I know the one of the guys Lapua selected to try the brass and do accuracy testing.
His conclusion was "Good brass, not really better than the other, can't determine a noticeable difference."
In my opinion, being an accomplished Palma shooter, the difference in brass/primers won't be realized while holding your rifle on a sling supported arm.
When trying to appreciate maximum/terminal accuracy, it may make a difference in allowing the sling shooter to have a tighter wind call, or eliminate load induced elevation, but only the top 0.1% of sling shooters "MIGHT" gain benefit.
The other conclusion - the world record BR group, shot w/ Lapua Scenar 308's at the 600yrd line, was not with the new Lapua brass.
FWIW
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
That's why I'm an old benchrest shooter.
That's why I'm an old benchrest shooter.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Lapua site shows it packaged in a box that can also be used to carry loaded ammo.
Interesting concept. </div></div>
Hell of an idea......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Lapua site shows it packaged in a box that can also be used to carry loaded ammo.
Interesting concept. </div></div>
Hell of an idea......
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think all the new Lapua brass is packaged like that now. </div></div>
+1
About new brass, got some samples and I like new concept very much so far.
I shoot 308 Oberland Arms 7.62 AR, and used that for testing too.
It shoots average 0.65MOA 5-shot groups at 100meters with 155gr Scenars (3 range trips so far), and better with heavier Scenars.
Rifle:
Upper left is very first test group with new rifle. Lower right is second.
Shot with 155gr Scenars, load mentioned below.
3-4 shots to snowbank before those were first very first shots with rifle.
About new cases,
I had identical load for both new Palma brass, and 2nd round recycled normal Lapua.
Load from VihtaVuori book, maximum 46.8gr with N150. COL 71.1mm/2.799 inch.
Federal 205 primers for Palma, and 210 for normal.
Powder temperature at cloudy test day 32F. No wind.
After some 25shots with both, SD and ES were in practice same.
Or to be exact, Palma was just a tad better- but string is way too small for conclusions.
Accuracy, same thing. In practice, same- Palma just little better. Again, only few groups and lots of mirage disturbing aiming. No reason to make any conclusions.
MV average with Palmas was slightly slower, 16.4fps.
I´d guessimate, that with CCI small rifle magnum primers it would have been same. All shots, average 2854fps.
Thing I love in Palma´s is that case bottom seems to get better support from bolt face. No "AR10 chip" at all.
Brass should be same, no hardness difference.
With normal Lapua brass (seen it in all lots), plunger starts to "carve" a chip when closing maximum loads.
If I have understood correctly, same thing happens with basically any brass- If load is hot.
This is a true nuisance before priming cases. I usually have to remove chip with knife.
That only is good enough reason for switching from normal to Palma´s. At least it is to me.
Summa Summarum -I cant see any reason why not to go with Palma in future. Especially with 7.62 AR:s.
Here´s the difference. As said, load 1:1 same with both brass.
In normal primer brass, previous shooting plunger position clearly visible. (7-8 o´clock in last pic)
Also in last pic both cases are in "same position". Plunger mark in 3 o´clock, on letters LAP in Palma case.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think all the new Lapua brass is packaged like that now. </div></div>
+1
About new brass, got some samples and I like new concept very much so far.
I shoot 308 Oberland Arms 7.62 AR, and used that for testing too.
It shoots average 0.65MOA 5-shot groups at 100meters with 155gr Scenars (3 range trips so far), and better with heavier Scenars.
Rifle:
Upper left is very first test group with new rifle. Lower right is second.
Shot with 155gr Scenars, load mentioned below.
3-4 shots to snowbank before those were first very first shots with rifle.
About new cases,
I had identical load for both new Palma brass, and 2nd round recycled normal Lapua.
Load from VihtaVuori book, maximum 46.8gr with N150. COL 71.1mm/2.799 inch.
Federal 205 primers for Palma, and 210 for normal.
Powder temperature at cloudy test day 32F. No wind.
After some 25shots with both, SD and ES were in practice same.
Or to be exact, Palma was just a tad better- but string is way too small for conclusions.
Accuracy, same thing. In practice, same- Palma just little better. Again, only few groups and lots of mirage disturbing aiming. No reason to make any conclusions.
MV average with Palmas was slightly slower, 16.4fps.
I´d guessimate, that with CCI small rifle magnum primers it would have been same. All shots, average 2854fps.
Thing I love in Palma´s is that case bottom seems to get better support from bolt face. No "AR10 chip" at all.
Brass should be same, no hardness difference.
With normal Lapua brass (seen it in all lots), plunger starts to "carve" a chip when closing maximum loads.
If I have understood correctly, same thing happens with basically any brass- If load is hot.
This is a true nuisance before priming cases. I usually have to remove chip with knife.
That only is good enough reason for switching from normal to Palma´s. At least it is to me.
Summa Summarum -I cant see any reason why not to go with Palma in future. Especially with 7.62 AR:s.
Here´s the difference. As said, load 1:1 same with both brass.
In normal primer brass, previous shooting plunger position clearly visible. (7-8 o´clock in last pic)
Also in last pic both cases are in "same position". Plunger mark in 3 o´clock, on letters LAP in Palma case.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eatindirt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The other conclusion - the world record BR group, shot w/ Lapua Scenar 308's at the 600yrd line, was not with the new Lapua brass.
</div></div>
In all fairness, the new brass wasn't even available when that group was shot... so I don't really see the relevance.
Like most, I'm interested in seeing how the new brass does. Given the results I've been getting with the 'regular' stuff, it'd be a pleasant surprise if the new stuff shoots appreciably better. Not really expecting it, but it would be nice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eatindirt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The other conclusion - the world record BR group, shot w/ Lapua Scenar 308's at the 600yrd line, was not with the new Lapua brass.
</div></div>
In all fairness, the new brass wasn't even available when that group was shot... so I don't really see the relevance.
Like most, I'm interested in seeing how the new brass does. Given the results I've been getting with the 'regular' stuff, it'd be a pleasant surprise if the new stuff shoots appreciably better. Not really expecting it, but it would be nice.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
use a redding type S full length die the decapping assemblies work with their small BR type pin gust tighten the collet a bit more and they are a better die than the rcbs from the start.
i spoke with Lapua and asked why they cant use the small flash hole with their 223 cases as that would be much better especialy as they came out with new match cases but they said they were not willing to make thembecause of the problem with dies and decapping pins i would have thought that the 223 would have been a better place to start but what do i know.
use a redding type S full length die the decapping assemblies work with their small BR type pin gust tighten the collet a bit more and they are a better die than the rcbs from the start.
i spoke with Lapua and asked why they cant use the small flash hole with their 223 cases as that would be much better especialy as they came out with new match cases but they said they were not willing to make thembecause of the problem with dies and decapping pins i would have thought that the 223 would have been a better place to start but what do i know.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
But how to update my current dies?
Darn pin is only problem- dies are good enough for me.
Got both full and neck dies already.
Wouldnt want to buy more dies and/or add one more stage in case preparation -meaning using universal die that only decapps?
Would I still need to form brass with another die?
Links, please?
I think I´ll have to modify RCBS pin by myself.
But how to update my current dies?
Darn pin is only problem- dies are good enough for me.
Got both full and neck dies already.
Wouldnt want to buy more dies and/or add one more stage in case preparation -meaning using universal die that only decapps?
Would I still need to form brass with another die?
Links, please?
I think I´ll have to modify RCBS pin by myself.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
just mod the pins if you turn the pins down they will work spin them in a drill and linish the pins down to 60 thou and you will be good to go.
just mod the pins if you turn the pins down they will work spin them in a drill and linish the pins down to 60 thou and you will be good to go.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
I called around to a few stores in Denver and got a box, its on its way. Hopefully before weekend. Going to check it out and give an opinion.
I called around to a few stores in Denver and got a box, its on its way. Hopefully before weekend. Going to check it out and give an opinion.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
witch store or do you wan to part with like 20 to 50????
witch store or do you wan to part with like 20 to 50????
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
Since I don't think the stuff is actually even in country yet... and suppliers like Sinclair Int'l and Bruno's don't have it in stock... somehow I doubt an obscure store in Denver has the stuff before everyone else.
Just a thought.
Since I don't think the stuff is actually even in country yet... and suppliers like Sinclair Int'l and Bruno's don't have it in stock... somehow I doubt an obscure store in Denver has the stuff before everyone else.
Just a thought.
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
Grafs is the importer and they aren't selling it right now, which is not to say they aren't filling back orders first. They told me they had a bunch (on back-order, that is).
Grafs is the importer and they aren't selling it right now, which is not to say they aren't filling back orders first. They told me they had a bunch (on back-order, that is).
Re: Lapua Palma Brass
Kaltron says mid May for the 308 palma and 22-250....
Kaltron says mid May for the 308 palma and 22-250....
