LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

[Dutch1911]

Good Evening,
I'll try to get straight to the point.
I'm the department armorer, and have been for several years now. Moved up through the ranks on the tac team from entry to sniper to crowd control commander.
I now find myself in a unique situation. I'm no longer part of the team, but have been contacted by purchasing regarding rifle purchases.
It seems our current commander

has decided he needs new sniper rifles. He has a "guy" that is new on the team from a military background that has gained some ear time regarding this "need".
It seems the push is to move away from our Rem 700 rifles to an AR 10. The Rems are in fact old and should be replaced. However, I do know a little about this arena. I ran a long rifle for the team for 6 years before going back to entry. Problem is, this clown can't seem to back up his creds, it's all verbal.
So what I need... I need to know how to spec out a sniper system for downtown. What's important, to what tolerances, inlcuding minimum MOA, cold bore etc...
I'm not a fan of the AR10 in an urban LE environment, I think you're giving up a lot for the Joe Cool factor.
Any valuable information would very helpful!
Cheers

Dutch

 

[RobertB]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I think there are semi's out there that would fit the bill but they usually cost the most. You could spend some money on custom bolt guns too, but I stay to the bolt guns mostly (I'm not a sniper) because I feel like they are the most consistant from time to time. Good luck

 

[105amatt]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Give George at GA Precision a call, he is your man for this.

 

[Dutch1911]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

You have a contact for him Sir???

Dutch

 

[WildBill3/75]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I've used Ar-10 "sniper rifles" they are good guns and have the ability for extremely quick follow-up shots and are really well suited to military applications.
It honestly comes down to your application needs and budget. Most police shootings happen within what? 100m...and that and against how many individuals? usually one right? You really don't need a 1000m custom 1/4MOA rifle for that or something with an instant follow-up shot for that. For your application I think the old trusty rem700 workhorse fits the bill just fine.
I'd recommend The Remington 700 Milspec 5R. It is IMO one of the best production rifles and won't break your departments bank at around $1000 and will be able to accurately take out threats well past 100m with sub MOA accuracy

Or you could get tacti-cool and get the same knights armorment M110 systems for only $24k a pop.http://www.impactguns.com/knights-x...-system-accessory-package-one-only-21568.aspx

 

[ogonzalez13]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Does this new purchase have to be a "Factory" built rifle or can it be from a custom shop?

 

[harbinger]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I think semi auto rifles do in fact have a place in LE for snipers. There have been advances in these guns that put their accuracy on par or better than just about any Rem 700 from the factory. They are a bit of a different animal when it comes to shooting them, but if your snipers are willing to train themselves up to your standards with a semi auto platform, the pros outway the cons by a long shot.

Some basic parameters to start with would be along the lines of:

1 MOA accuracy
Variable power scope with a low end around at most 4.
Trigger weight of (insert your standard here - preferably around 3.5 lbs)
Reputable builder and warranty

If you are interested in the advantages over a bolt gun (in my opinion) shoot me a PM. Will be pressing this issue next time we buy rifles.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

You might get a more useful response if you re-post your question in the Mil/LE only forum and be a bit more specific about the AO, intended use, skill level of the members of the team, budget, policy, etc.

 

[SFC Carpentier jr]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have a contact for him Sir???
</div></div>

GA George's email is [email protected]

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Another gentleman to speak with would be LoneWolf USMC. Lonewolf is a member here and, if I understand him correctly, he is in this very field. He may have some good insight for you. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that he has extensive military background with sniper rifles as well.

I'm like you, all verbal reference to making a swap to a totally different system seems rather careless. It seems, by your comments, that the new member of the team and the commander are not being very prudent in this matter. With cases like this, snap decisions can get people killed.

Just buy reading what you have posted, gut instinct tells me that it would be wise to stick with what works. If ever there were a situation like your LE agency for the phrase "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" to apply, then I don't know what would be. By that I mean a lack of serious thought and investigation about the subject in question.

I know this is off topic a bit but I have a Sniper Challenge on video. A civilian unit, Pittsburgh I believe, was aloud to compete at this challenge. Their weapon of choice in the challenge was a semi auto AR platform. If memory serves me right, they didn't perform very well with it at any of the comps except for the heilo challenge. There was another semi in the challenge that was used by one of the military units and they performed rather well, but the majority were bolt action rifles. But, the semi auto rifle that they were using was one of those 24K rifles also.

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Semi autos definately have a place in LE, as metioned before, most engagements are close range and even at longer ranges even a 5.56 will do the job. I prefer the 308 because of the terminal performance at distance, the olden days of Carlos Hathcock taking one shot on a General are pretty much over.

In the LE field it doesn't matter how many times you shoot the suspect, you shoot till the threat stops, doesn't matter if it is from a handgun or sniper rifle. Having the ability to follow up quickly and accurately is an awesome benefit for LE, and the current semi autos will do the job. I would contact LaRue and take a look at their OBR line of rifles in 556 and 762, super accurate, great warranty, and they specialize in ARs.

 

[SWRichmond]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've used Ar-10 "sniper rifles" they are good guns and have the ability for extremely quick follow-up shots and are really well suited to military applications.
It honestly comes down to your application needs and budget. Most police shootings happen within what? 100m...and that and against how many individuals? usually one right? You really don't need a 1000m custom 1/4MOA rifle for that or something with an instant follow-up shot for that. For your application I think the old trusty rem700 workhorse fits the bill just fine.
I'd recommend The Remington 700 Milspec 5R. It is IMO one of the best production rifles and won't break your departments bank at around $1000 and will be able to accurately take out threats well past 100m with sub MOA accuracy

Or you could get tacti-cool and get the same knights armorment M110 systems for only $24k a pop.http://www.impactguns.com/knights-x...-system-accessory-package-one-only-21568.aspx </div></div>

+1. High accuracy rifle with a need for "quick follow up shots" sounds like a military application. Not to mention the sheer joy of buying tacticool with someone else's money.

 

[SWRichmond]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hogstooth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the LE field it doesn't matter how many times you shoot the suspect, you shoot till the threat stops, doesn't matter if it is from a handgun or sniper rifle.</div></div>

I am not trying to piss you off but your logic is very badly flawed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/nyregi...?pagewanted=all

<span style="font-style: italic">It was the second time in two weeks that police officers fired fusillades on the crowded streets of Midtown — 28 shots fired between the two episodes — and with it, there were once again questions of police protocol in urban settings. In the first shooting, no bystanders were struck when officers fired 12 shots at a man with a knife just south of Times Square.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">...a study based on New York’s annual firearms discharge reports indicated that officers hit their targets 34 percent of the time. </span>

 

[fdkay]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

There is nothing wrong with a good AR10 as a primary precision rifle.
GAP
Les Baer (yes Baer)
and Larue all make rifles capable of fulfilling the role.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Dutch,

Have you checked with Dan B. lately.
If you are with Boise SWAT, Please touch base with him on this topic.

Stay safe,
Terry

 

[jasonk]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1. High accuracy rifle with a need for "quick follow up shots" sounds like a military application. Not to mention the sheer joy of buying tacticool with someone else's money.
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hogstooth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the LE field it doesn't matter how many times you shoot the suspect, you shoot till the threat stops, doesn't matter if it is from a handgun or sniper rifle.</div></div>

I am not trying to piss you off but your logic is very badly flawed.
</div></div>

I'm dying to hear about your experiences that make you qualified to make these two statements.

 

[Independent]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Richmond talking about officers missing or firing what You perceive as a lot of shots is not a well thought out statement.....FACT: Officers are trained to stop a threat not stop shooting because they missed or it seems like an excessive number of shots to onlookers or a reporter who wasn't there.
Anyone who talks about number of shots fired against a man with a knife has obviously never faced an edged weapon or seen what one man with a knife can do. Do your research you will either try to save face or realize you are wrong. Either way doesn't matter to me but know what u are talking about before you comment in a place where many people here are placed in deadly force encounters on occasion.

 

[Independent]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Another observation officers hit the target 34% of the time.....not sure if this is factual but what is factual when your life is on the line accuracy tends to suffer. Oh Shit moments have a way of doing that.

 

[Dutch1911]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Thank you all very much for the responses, I'll be making some calls to get further information.
Mind you, I should have been a little clearer, I'm not looking to make a purchase here. I'm simply information gathering. A bid has to go out for pricing etc. All I'm lookin for is appropriate specs for a Rifle serving in LE capacity. Nothing more.

 

[Independent]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Dutch if I took it off topic sorry.....just hard to not join in when people make such comments.....hits a little too close to home.

 

[Remlin]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I can't speak on the need for a gas gun in your application, but I have seen several used in tactical matches with very good success. Particularly JP Enterprise's LRP-07 platform. The top 2 teams at PMG's spring match were all shooting for JP and all ran LRP-07s. That should tell you something. Also, if you have access to Remington Defense/LE goodies, the M11 RSASS is based off the same JP platform. Might be another option for you.

 

[Dutch1911]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

No worries brotha, all I'm looking for are specs...
Just wanted to be clear I have no spending authority nor am I looking for a hook with a seller. Specs only.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Like Pete said, then George should be the guy to talk to.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I am not going to really get into the “Bolt Gun vs. Gas Gun” debate primarily because I don’t think that there really is one. They both have their Pros & Cons, and IMHO they both can serve as needed as a LE Sniper Rifle.

In terms of which Gas Gun, food for thought, considering this is an LE Sniper Rifle:

Track Record – whatever make or model, you will be better off if it has a long and stellar track record of performance. Track record includes:
- Lots of testing done by the manufacturer that is well documented and shows a consistent level of performance that is 1 MOA or better. Also there is hopefully some form of Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA) data, and what they did to address any issues identified.
- Plenty of time in the field, hopefully with a fair amount of use and well documented results. Given LE Snipers do not get much deployment or trigger time, then you will also want to look for Military and Competitive Shooting use.
Bottom line, you DO NOT want to be the first one taking the rifle to the Rodeo. Someone has to be the Guinea Pig, but in this case given what is out there on the market, it really shouldn’t have to be you.

Performance Level – per above, if the manufacturer doesn’t have tons of documentation to show that the rifle is CONSISTENTLY capable of delivering 1 MOA or better under all possible operating conditions, then don’t even look at it. Be careful, there are other performance criteria out there (Military) that are not as stringent as what you need for a LE Sniper Rifle.

Performance Level & Ammo – make sure that the performance level can be maintained with whatever ammo that your Snipers will be employing, or that your Snipers are willing to change to whatever ammo the Rifle will perform the best with. IE: the manufacturer may guarantee sub MOA performance with Federal GM 168, but nothing else. If you also plan on using a Bonded Barrier Round, how will the rifle perform with that ammo?

Support & Service – make sure you know exactly what is going to happen if a rifle goes down? What is covered under warranty, how quickly will repairs happen, are replacements/loaners available, etc. Needless to say, make sure they will put all of the claims in writing!

When it comes to LE Sniper Rifles, remember performance is paramount, but as much as I hate to say it, it is equally important to be able to defend your choice of rifle in court!

The worst time in a Sniper’s life,
- They take a shot at the bad guy and miss, and the bad guy then gets the chance to harm or kill someone as a result
- They take a shot at the bad guy and miss, and as a result that round harms or kills an innocent bystander or LE team member
No one can afford for either of those incidents to occur as a result of an inappropriate or defective rifle. If you can show that the LE Sniper and Rifle were both 100%, then you have a lot better chance of convincing a Judge/Jury that sometimes "$#!@ Just Happens" and good people unfortunately get hurt. If you can't show they were both 100%, then "Operator or Equipment Error" equals a really big payout and a really bad day for everyone involved.

Also remember, the Sniper should have 100% confidence in what they are running, if not you are asking for BIG PROBLEMS on many fronts.

Based on everything above,
I would say LaRue or LMT. Might consider GAP or JP, but I do not know if they have the track record and documentation to the extent that you would want.

We are currently going through the process of putting our first LMT Sniper Rifle in service. So far so good!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

PS: Should also probably talk to one of the Brothers at ASA http://americansniper.org/directors_&_staff.htm
They may actually already have a bid spec drawn up, and can further address some of the issues that you will most likely run into.

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've used Ar-10 "sniper rifles" they are good guns and have the ability for extremely quick follow-up shots and are really well suited to military applications.
It honestly comes down to your application needs and budget. Most police shootings happen within what? 100m...and that and against how many individuals? usually one right? You really don't need a 1000m custom 1/4MOA rifle for that or something with an instant follow-up shot for that. For your application I think the old trusty rem700 workhorse fits the bill just fine.
I'd recommend The Remington 700 Milspec 5R. It is IMO one of the best production rifles and won't break your departments bank at around $1000 and will be able to accurately take out threats well past 100m with sub MOA accuracy

Or you could get tacti-cool and get the same knights armorment M110 systems for only $24k a pop.http://www.impactguns.com/knights-x...-system-accessory-package-one-only-21568.aspx </div></div>

+1. High accuracy rifle with a need for "quick follow up shots" sounds like a military application. Not to mention the sheer joy of buying tacticool with someone else's money. </div></div>

In this case, local law enforcement that are funded in large by tax payer dollars, how do you stand by a comment like that? Someone elses money? Tacticool? Where do you think that money comes from? That "someone else" you speak of is you, myself, and every other tax payer is where it comes
from. I am not going to get into what LE agencies need or do not need. But "sheer joy" to buy tacticool equipment with someone elses money is to say the least, irresponsible! A comment like this, which 9 time out of 10, is actually the mentality of many people in the position to make decisions like the very one that we are speaking of need to come to a quick halt. I am going to stop here as to not hijack the OP's thread. But really, "SHEAR JOY?" Use your head.

 

[skep_tic1]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Have youever witnessed a .308 "gas gun" failure rate in competition? I know that there are great semi-auto rifles in .308 on the market. I'm just saying, I don't like the idea of having one of those failures when its life or death instead of just competition.
Not to mention cleaning one.

 

[lw8]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

In 308 there is no practical reason to use a Bolt gun...blasphemy I know but there isn't.

OBRs are consistently grouping in the half MOA range as are some KAC rifles. The newer triggers are great and the rigid rail space provides flexibility when using nods and IR lasers.

From an operational standpoint, follow up shots are realistic as are multiple targets.

Reliability isn't an issue unless someone is a total maintenance idiot.

If you are working with 308, call KAC and LaRue and request a sample rifle to test. Validate it yourself and you will see.

 

[fdkay]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Dutch,
How many bolt guns do you have?
Do they intend to replace all of them?

For less than the price of a new gas gun, you could have the action trued, a new recoil lug and match grade barrel installed and drop it into an AICS chassis.
Total for this would be about 1500 per rifle.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When it comes to LE Sniper Rifles, remember performance is paramount, but as much as I hate to say it, it is equally important to be able to defend your choice of rifle in court!</div></div>Defend the choice of rifle how? From what?

 

[Who Dat]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Our team just went from Remingtons that were possibly in the same condition as yours to Accuarcy International rifles with suppressors. When it comes to finding extra cash out there have the attorney that represents your agency for law suits take a look at what you want to purchase and why and you would be surprised at what they come up with to get you extra funding due to that simple term of risk management.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Who Dat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...have the attorney that represents your agency for law suits take a look at what you want to purchase and why and you would be surprised at what they come up with to get you extra funding due to that simple term of risk management. </div></div>'Risk Management' isn't like 'Open Sesame'. There's no magic involved. What did the attorney do and how did he do it? If you know, please share so that we can know as well.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use


Question: What Departments are using AR platforms as primary sniping platforms?

Perhaps talk to a department that has made the switch and see what the Pro and Cons are in doing this switch. Talk to the Armorers, and the tact teams and try to get an all around opinion.

I personally never heard of anyone going to ar-10 as a primary. I imagine if a big PD did go to an ar-10 that whatever manufacture made them would market that all over the place.

Maybe try post on this forum as well:
http://policelink.monster.com/discussions

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally never heard of anyone going to ar-10 as a primary. I imagine if a big PD did go to an ar-10 that whatever manufacture made them would market that all over the place. </div></div>Teams have them. It's known. But they are not advertising.

 

[lw8]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Why not go to something like an OBR? The accuracy is there...it's easy to validate and both LaRue and GA Precision have accuracy standards that are more than adequate.

Both are reliable and durable...

So why limit yourself to a bolt gun?

It doesn't make sense.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When it comes to LE Sniper Rifles, remember performance is paramount, but as much as I hate to say it, it is equally important to be able to defend your choice of rifle in court!</div></div>Defend the choice of rifle how? From what? </div></div>

If a shot gets botched, take either example that I posted above, then everything that happened is going to get drug into court.

Also per above, if you can prove as the LE Sniper, and as the agency on the hook, that everything (LE Sniper, equipment, procedures) was 100% as it shoud have been, then it may reduce or eliminate some of the legal liability.

If you can't prove that everything was 100%, then it can be open season on everyone involved.

There are many reasons why a reputable LE Sniper doesn't simply grab a rifle, scope, and box of ammo off the shelf of a local store, throw it all together, zero it, throw it in the trunk, and then pull it out months later and use it. Legal Liability is just one of them.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[kraigWY]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

It sounds to me like the OP's commander is dreaming, and wanting the OP to do some research that most of us do every time we visit a gun site.

Fine, we all do that, but most want to do the searching our selve.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are many reasons why a reputable LE Sniper doesn't simply grab a rifle, scope, and box of ammo off the shelf of a local store, throw it all together, zero it, throw it in the trunk</div></div>

And there is reasons why we do (or did). Because it works is the main reason.

Remington makes rifles that fit that, they have very good systems will within the budgets of even the smallest department.

If we want to talk liability this makes sense also.

Looking at strickly the liability aspect, wouldn't it make sense to go with the recomendations of those who've been in the game of teaching LE Sniper/Counter Snipers longer then any one else.

That being the Army Marksmanship Unit. That's where the FBI, Secret Service, and hundreds of LE Agency's Sniper Programs got their start.

I think it would help in the liability department also if we stayed away from the military, tacticool look. That would be a turn off to any jury who don't know about sniper systems, military or LE.

They do have different missions. I don't believe I need to go into the difference here. Except to say the LE snipe needs a system that requires a system that will keep the round w/in 1 MOA to 300 yards. I can't imagine a case where a urban LE would need to shoot further then that.

The Remington's off the shelf LE rifles are more then capable of that, they have that ability without breaking the bank, and without looking para-military.

Why not just drop a note to the AMU and ask them for an opinion.

That's exactly what I did when I started a program for my department. Took their recomadation and went with it. Worked for me for over 15 years (until I retired).

Remington didn't have the special LE rifles they do today. Their top recomendation back in the mid 70s was an off shelf Remington Varmint special.

I assume the newer rifles are better (haven't tried them) but with the Varmint, you can indeed throw it in back of a partol car and it will work with the first CB shot.

To the OP, I'd recommend finding a copy of the USAMU Counter Sniper's guide, high lite the rifle section and drop it on your boss's desk.

 

[Chiller]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds to me like the OP's commander is dreaming, and wanting the OP to do some research that most of us do every time we visit a gun site.

Fine, we all do that, but most want to do the searching our selve.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are many reasons why a reputable LE Sniper doesn't simply grab a rifle, scope, and box of ammo off the shelf of a local store, throw it all together, zero it, throw it in the trunk</div></div>

And there is reasons why we do (or did). Because it works is the main reason.

Remington makes rifles that fit that, they have very good systems will within the budgets of even the smallest department.

If we want to talk liability this makes sense also.

Looking at strickly the liability aspect, wouldn't it make sense to go with the recomendations of those who've been in the game of teaching LE Sniper/Counter Snipers longer then any one else.

That being the Army Marksmanship Unit. That's where the FBI, Secret Service, and hundreds of LE Agency's Sniper Programs got their start.

I think it would help in the liability department also if we stayed away from the military, tacticool look. That would be a turn off to any jury who don't know about sniper systems, military or LE.

They do have different missions. I don't believe I need to go into the difference here. Except to say the LE snipe needs a system that requires a system that will keep the round w/in 1 MOA to 300 yards. I can't imagine a case where a urban LE would need to shoot further then that.

The Remington's off the shelf LE rifles are more then capable of that, they have that ability without breaking the bank, and without looking para-military.

Why not just drop a note to the AMU and ask them for an opinion.

That's exactly what I did when I started a program for my department. Took their recomadation and went with it. Worked for me for over 15 years (until I retired).

Remington didn't have the special LE rifles they do today. Their top recomendation back in the mid 70s was an off shelf Remington Varmint special.

I assume the newer rifles are better (haven't tried them) but with the Varmint, you can indeed throw it in back of a partol car and it will work with the first CB shot.

To the OP, I'd recommend finding a copy of the USAMU Counter Sniper's guide, high lite the rifle section and drop it on your boss's desk.

</div></div>

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/pdf/2677.pdf

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I was not trying to argue with you, I wanted to get at how much of what you posted was from your knowledge and experience and how much was pure speculation.

There's much misinformation (and bad information) on the Internet and, believe it or not, it gets read and picked-up and repeated by inexperienced officers who are thrust into departmental training positions. I've seen it happen: Departments that change policy based only on a myth circulating around the Internet (don't get me started on the IACP website picking-up and re-publishing the so-called 'Triangle of Death'

).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a shot gets botched, take either example that I posted above, then everything that happened is going to get drug into court.</div></div>No. The rules of evidence will keep out what is not relevant, whether criminal or civil.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also per above, if you can prove as the LE Sniper, and as the agency on the hook, that everything (LE Sniper, equipment, procedures) was 100% as it shoud have been, then it may reduce or eliminate some of the legal liability.</div></div>Proof is not the burden of the defendant. Besides, there's no such standard as '100% should have been', so we're back to the rules of evidence. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't prove that everything was 100%, then it can be open season on everyone involved.</div></div>No. Then the plaintiff impleads other defendants that may be jointly and severally liable, or, in the case of your example perhaps completely liable, which may absolve the sniper and/or the department of liability.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are many reasons why a reputable LE Sniper doesn't simply grab a rifle, scope, and box of ammo off the shelf of a local store, throw it all together, zero it, throw it in the trunk, and then pull it out months later and use it. Legal Liability is just one of them.</div></div>Actually, in my experience that's exactly what many Tier 3 departments do, with the exception of occasional so-called one-time 'training' and periodic 'qualification'. Regardless, if that's what happened (as it did in a California shootout, minus the zeriong part), and the use of deadly force was justifiable under the circumstances, then what's the legal problem for the officer or the department?

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For less than the price of a new gas gun, you could have the action trued, a new recoil lug and match grade barrel installed and drop it into an AICS chassis.
Total for this would be about 1500 per rifle. </div></div>

I like this response the best though I would edit it to add that there are several quality chassis systems out there which work very well.

We have several aging rifles on our team and just had three of them trued, rebarreled and refinished for $900ea this year. I've run my bolt gun against experienced snipers with gas guns and beat them. I won't go so far as to say that gas guns can't perform in the LE role as I know they can but considering the costs and training involved in switching platforms I don't see the benefit. I have yet to feel undergunned with a bolt action in ten years of this work.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For less than the price of a new gas gun, you could have the action trued, a new recoil lug and match grade barrel installed and drop it into an AICS chassis.
Total for this would be about 1500 per rifle. </div></div>I like this response the best though I would edit it to add that there are several quality chassis systems out there which work very well...</div></div>Agreed.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 308 there is no practical reason to use a Bolt gun...blasphemy I know but there isn't.

OBRs are consistently grouping in the half MOA range as are some KAC rifles. The newer triggers are great and the rigid rail space provides flexibility when using nods and IR lasers.

From an operational standpoint, follow up shots are realistic as are multiple targets.

Reliability isn't an issue unless someone is a total maintenance idiot.

If you are working with 308, call KAC and LaRue and request a sample rifle to test. Validate it yourself and you will see.</div></div>

There are plenty of practical reasons. Many shooters are unable to perform as consistently with an AR platform as they are a bolt gun, something you are likely aware of if you have experience with each.

Statistically, more shooters will have a higher percentage of accurate first round hits with a bolt gun than a semi if the two weapons have the same inherent precision. They are simply a little less forgiving to drive. Considering that police officers rarely get the amount of training time they desire, that is a pretty powerful argument right there.

There are reliable semi-autos, but they won't be as reliable as the bolt gun, they just aren't.

As for follow up shots on multiple targets, how many times has a single LEO sniper shot multiple targets in one engagement?

Not saying that a semi-auto can't be an appropriate LEO sniper weapon, but the boring old bolt gun has a lot going for it in this role.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are reliable semi-autos, but they won't be as reliable as the bolt gun, they just aren't.</div></div> I would rather have a bolt gun, for many reasons, except reliability; in which case I would rather have an M4. Bolt guns are indeed easier to use, more convenient, and easier to train someone with to shoot well. The teams I know that use a .308 AR platform are expecting, according their Brief, to be facing multiple heavily armed suspects.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I will apologize for the sidetrack, because this was not what this topic was started for, but this may shed some perspective on some things.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">FROM MY PERSPECTIVE</span></span>
We just ran a week long “Urban Sniper Course”. The course included local LE, Military, and “Special Agency” personnel. The majority of the the course is based on maintaining 1 MOA inside of 300 yards, but it also includes some “Minute of Man” out to 600 yards. Scenarios ranged from “classic hostage rescue” instant incapacitation shot on a single bad guy to “counter sniper” put a round on multiple targets as quickly as you can.

About 2/3 of the shooters were running traditional bolt guns (Rem 700, Blaser), with the remaining 1/3 running gas guns (KAC M110, LMT MWS).

Very long story short:
The gas guns were able to meet the requirements of the course, they were able to maintain acceptable cold bore performance, consistently group, and function without failure.

At times the bolt guns would group just slightly better (0.25-0.50 MOA) than the gas guns, but there were also times when a gas gun would out shoot a bolt gun.

There was not a time when a bolt gun had a significant advantage over a gas gun, but when it came to engaging multiple targets as quickly as possible, the gas guns obviously had a significant advantage over the bolt guns.

Ironically in relation to this topic, one of the agencies just had their M24s pulled and replaced with M110s. The shooters were not real happy about that situation, and they did have some issues with the M110s. As is well documented, there are issues with POI shifts taking the suppressors on and off, cold bore shots, etc. These shooters had little time with the rifles prior to the class, and the learning curve was steep, but in the end everything worked out.

Key lessons learned and reinforced in this class:
- Gas guns CAN shoot as well as a bolt gun.
- Not all gas guns are created equal, some performed significantly better than others.
- Going from a bolt gun to a gas gun involves another level of training and mastery.
- Adding suppressors into the mix requires another level of training and mastery

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">FROM TOM BECKSTRAND’S PERSPECTIVE</span></span>
While it’s all well and good for us gun hacks to sit around pontificating about the future of sniping, perhaps some empirical evidence is in order. It just so happens that the U.S. Army hosts a sniping competition that lasts several days and involves competitors from all branches of the service, the law enforcement community and even allied countries.

The 2010 International Sniper Competition and the winning rifles provide us with some insight into what today’s most talented snipers carry and shoot when they have a choice. The winners of the Service Class were SFC Chance Giannelli and SFC Ed Hoymeyer. Both men won with the LaRue OBR. A USASOC headquarters team won the Open Class, and the spotter of that team also carried a LaRue OBR. Three out of the four winning rifles were LaRue OBRs. This is what we sometimes refer to as a “clue”.

Around the time I was writing this article, the Army’s Special Operations Command hosted its own sniper match at Fort Bragg run by the good men of the Special Forces Sniper School. While I was there I had the opportunity to interview SFCs Giannelli and Hoymeyer.

One the first questions I asked both men was why they chose to compete in the International match with the OBR. Chance responded, “My OBR consistently shoots half MOA. It’s fast to get back on target, and recoil management is a nonissue.”

Ed said, “My 20-inch OBR shoots 2 ½ inch groups at 500 yards. It’s light, offers fast follow-up shots and doesn’t require me to break position shot to shot. It’s easy to use for positional shooting.”

Knowing that some will pooh-pooh a semiauto sniper rifle because they claim it’s not reliable, I asked both Chance and Ed if they’d ever seen or experienced a malfunction with their OBR. Both men responded “No.” Considering the amount of ammunition they’ve seen put through the platform, I think we can confidently say that a semiauto like the OBR is completely and totally reliable.

The USASOC Sniper Competition provided more evidence of what we saw at the International Sniper Competition. Once again, both members of the winning team were carrying semiauto 7.62mm guns. The match required stalking, shooting unknown distance, movers and a final running and gunning stress event.

Semiauto sniper rifles such as the LaRue OBR are the choice of today’s discriminating professional. Men who go into harm’s way like the gun because of its accuracy, utter reliability and flexibility of the platform. From a sniper’s perspective, this is a “do anything” rifle.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">FROM A USASOC SNIPER COMP PERSPECTIVE</span></span>
Team – Rifles Used
USASOC – 2x M110
1 SFG – M24, Mk11
1 SFG – 20" OBR, Mk13
1 SFG – 16" OBR, M110
1 SFG – 2x 18" OBR
3 SFG – 2x 18" OBR
3 SFG – 2x Mk11
3 SFG – 2x M110
5 SFG – 2 x M110
5 SFG – M110, 16" OBR
7 SFG – 2x M110
10 SFG – 16” Larue Predator, 18" OBR
10 SFG – 2x 18" OBR
10 SFG – 16" OBR, 20" OBR
10 SFG – 2x M110
10 SFG – 2x 18" OBR
US Army Sniper School – 2 x M110
1/75 Ranger – 16" OBR, M110
3/75 Ranger – 2 x M110
USMC SOI East – 16” Larue Predator, M40A5
USMC SOI West – 2x M110
Navy Team 1 – 2x Mk20 SCAR
Navy Team 2 – 2x Mk20 SCAR
Dutch SF – AI, Hk417 16"
Irish Defense Force – 2x 20" Hk417
San Diego PD – 18" OBR, Blaser .308
LA State Police – 308 Bolt, 16" JP .308
Raleigh NC PD Team – 2x 18" OBR
NC State Police Team – 2x 18" OBR
DOE – 16" OBR, 18" OBR
ATF – 2x Mk11
In the words of Tom Beckstrand, “there are a few clues there”:
- 90% of the rifles used were gas guns
- Of the 8 rifles used by PDs, 6 were gas guns
- In terms of rifles used by choice, there was one manufacturer that made 90% of them

Hopefully if you have to lay behind the rifle and pull the trigger, you will have some say in what you are running. But hopefully you have also kept your eyes & ears open, and you are not stuck in the doctrine of the dark ages. Times are a changing!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

After a discussion about standards, I recently had a friend run a sister department's LE sniper qualification course with an iron-sighted Mosin Nagant. He qualified.

It's not about the gun.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To the OP, I'd recommend finding a copy of the USAMU Counter Sniper's guide, high lite the rifle section and drop it on your boss's desk. </div></div>

You realize that you are recommending a document that was written in the 70s/80s for use in 2012?

Not saying that some of it is still not applicable, but the majority of it, especially anything that has to do with equipment selection is way out of date.

Sorry, but there are a lot better resources out there.
M Richardson

 

[sinister]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

The bottom line is mission drives the requirement, dollars drive the ability to fill the shortfall. How many times has the department needed to use their snipers, and what has their success-to-failure rate been?

The USAMU Counter-Sniper Guide is indeed old. Hardware changes, principles don't. Our Constitution has held up pretty well.

There are many 16-inch 7.62 guns that could fill the void. Many are a hell of a lot more expensive than re-barreling, re-bedding, and new triggers on 700s.

Proficiency with a semiauto also requires a higher sustainment schedule (time, ammo, training).

 

[kraigWY]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You realize that you are recommending a document that was written in the 70s/80s for use in 2012?</div></div>

Yeap, I'm aware of the age of the document, as I mentioned Remington's new sniper system instead of the Remington Varmint mentioned in the AMU Guide.

A hugh majority of the departments in this country are not large metro, but smaller depts with less then a dozen officers and do not have the budget for a full time SWAT, para military division.

Seldom will an LE counter-sniper deal with multi targets, they don't need a $15000-20000 dollar rifle to shoot less then 300 yards.

For a rifle that will spend 99% of its time ridding in the truck of a patrol car.

But you want that rifle to hold a zero when you dig it out of the trunk whether its 80 degrees above,or 40 below, The rifle mention in the AMU Guide will do that, the newer Remington's will do it better.

But it can be done with a reasonable budget in todays economical times that most departments find them selves today.

Back to the AMU Counter Sniper guide, its just as valid to day as the day it was wrtten, taking into account it was written for LE not the military.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

I'm with Dave and Kraig on this one: Bolt guns & established principles; shot properly and taught/learned well, is where an LE department must be firmly established before it takes the step of attempting to graft military doctrine and TTP on a civilian environment.

I have seen too many legal, ethical, and public relations disasters involving SWAT-type units caused by untrained, inexperienced and incompetent teams.

There's nothing wrong with .308 AR's (except that, as of this writing, the .308 semi AR platform has not yet been perfected in either its design or its manufacture), but those in charge of training must first know the "How" and the "Why", or it can be a step backward for the department and a huge waste of money and time.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

Let’s see, this started out as basically a request for a Gas Gun Bid Spec, which has now turned into the ubiquitous Bolt Gun vs Gas Gun debate, which then turned into a Legal Opinion, Shooting Fundamental, Training, Deployment Doctrine, and Cost vs Benefit debacle.

Then we get comments like the ones below:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You realize that you are recommending a document that was written in the 70s/80s for use in 2012?</div></div>
Back to the AMU Counter Sniper guide, its just as valid to day as the day it was wrtten, taking into account it was written for LE not the military. </div></div>

Correct, shooting fundamentals are relative, a manual that recommends equipment and corresponding techniques from over 30 years ago, not real relative. If you want advice from AMU, look at what people like SSG Horner or Sgt Gallagher are putting out TODAY, both the best of the best when it comes running a rifle. I would also listen to anything from AMU Alum Sinister(credentials too long to list). Or of course you could also refer to a relevant manual that was written in the 21st Century like:
- Sniper Resource Manual by the American Sniper Assoc in 2011
- Sniper’s Notebook by John Simpson in 2010
- Police Sniper Training & Operations by the American Sniper Assoc in 2008
(just to name a few options)

If I thru a 30 year old manual on my Team Commander’s desk and told him to read it in regards to RIFLE SELECTION or EMPLOYMENT (as you recommended), I would no longer have anything to do with the team in any shape or manner.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There's nothing wrong with .308 AR's (except that, as of this writing, the .308 semi AR platform has not yet been perfected in either its design or its manufacture), but those in charge of training must first know the "How" and the "Why", or it can be a step backward for the department and a huge waste of money and time. </div></div>

Maybe you can tell the folks at LaRue or LMT or a few other companies that their products are not up to snuff. Or maybe you can tell one of the hundreds of competitors running a gas gun and winning matches that they are wasting their time and effort. I will make sure that when I head down to the 2012 Int Sniper Comp at Ft Benning that I tell anyone who shows up with a gas gun that they are wasting their time on a QUOTE “platform that has not yet been perfected in either its design or its manufacture”. Are you freaking kidding me!

What are you going to do?

For those of you who choose to live in the dark ages, or prefer to stick your head in the sand, knock yourself out!

For those of you who would like to pay attention to the "Clues" provided, go for it!

Me, I am heading towards the light and not looking back!

Sorry for my less than positive response, but this has turned into a royal “Cluster #@!$”.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[sinister]

Re: LE Sniper Rifle - Department Use

There are many capable self-loading 7.62s on the market today that I would take to war, right now. There are also a few that if I saw a unit outfitting their men with I'd have an issue with.

So give him a brand, model, and a price.