Gunsmithing Legal questions on stripped lowers

[silverphoenix]

Ok so first of all, does someone need a firearms manufacturer's license if they want to use a stripped lower to build a rifle for personal use? (not to ever sell or give away). I was told that stripped lowers are considered "replacement parts" and that you can't legally build a new rifle on them without a firearms manufacturing license.

Secondly, are any engravings or any registration required besides the initial transfer when the lower is made into a rifle?

Lastly, if someone who is a couple months away from 21 orders a stripped lower, then has the FFL hold it for a couple months until they are 21 or has a parent to transfer it into the parent's name--is this ok?

Lastly, say you don't have a working credit card, so you get joe smoe to order the lower with his, you pay him back, and then you have the lower transferred into your own name at the age of 21 with joe smoe never having it in his posetion or transferred to him, is this ok?---seeing as how the person is not playing strawman (buying and transferrring a firearm into their name to sell to someone ineligible), but rather is just forwarding payment so the future owner can transfer it into their own name when they are of legal age?

Thanks for any info you can offer.

 

[Hink]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

What use other than personal could a person have for building a AR? In any case, no FFL is required, since the original manufacturer built the lower and engraved it with the requisite information (original manufacturer, serial number, caliber designation).

For the AR platform, the lower receiver (the part with the serial number) is considered the firearm. So no further identification is required with building a rifle starting with a stripped lower from a manufacturer.

For the age of 21 legal question...since the AR <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> be built into a pistol configuration, it cannot be transferred to individuals under the age of 21. Having the FFL 'hold on' to the stripped lower would likely be up to the discretion of the FFL. Personally, I'd just wait until the birthday and order the lower then. Stripped lowers are not that difficult to locate, and adding any extra difficulty to a transfer will likely add to the cost.

Last, if you were asking me to purchase a firearm on my credit card for you...there is the appearance of a straw purchase. I'd tell you to find a bank and get a MO. Or how about getting your own disposable debit card? Again, just wait until you turn 21 to avoid the appearance of illegal conduct.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

if your over 18, you can buy a rifle, PERIOD! Find another FFL to do the transfer.

 

[Eagle1899]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

ATF says stripped AR lowers and bolt actions are to be tranferred as a "receiver".
They are neither rifle or pistol until assembled.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

We dont coat lowers because of FFL transfers. As with bolt receivers.
Rather avoid the hassle until we have an FFL

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

walmart has a debit card that you can reload with money or even have your paycheck direct deposited to the debit card. they also have gift cards that are one time. money orders work too.

 

[Gettn2]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

FWIW ...

1) An FFL may not sell a frame or receiver to anyone under 21 years of age [Title 18, U.S.C., section 922 (b)(1)]. Comment: This is because the receiver could, potentially, be made into a pistol.

2) An FFL may not transfer a frame or receiver to an unlicensed person from another State. [Title 18, U.S.C. section 922(b)(3)]. Comment: Again, this tracks the rules regarding transfers of pistols, because some frames/receivers can be built into pistols.

3) Multiple handgun sales forms (ATF forms 3320.4) are NOT required for sales of multiple frames or receivers of any firearm, as they are not pistols or revolvers. Comment: This may seem inconsistent with points 1 and 2 above, but this follows from the provisions of CFT 478.11 which states that bare frames or receivers are not handguns until so assembled.

 

[frog5215]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Wait 'til you're 21 for reasons above.
Where in Texas are you that you need to order a lower?
The last gun show I was at earlier this month was filthy with stripped lowers from about $100 up to #00 for some of the billet/CNC stuff.
Heck, if you're local to Fort Worth, I have a low miles complete lower you can have now, since you're over 18.

 

[silverphoenix]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

I always follow the laws veeeeeeeery closely to make sure I'm on the level with everything, but it looks like this 21 and over only on receivers is a very recent change--sometime in late 2008 or early 2009. I had No idea that it had been changed recently, and neither did most people I talked to. The lowers were at a steal of a price ($90 each from spikes) and I really want to build an ar-15--I just need the lower and if I do need a manufacturer's license to build it, I will either get one or pay a manufacturer to make it in order to stay 100% legal as I always make sure to do. I just have never heard of this being the case as long as the rifle is for personal use only.

I wish I would of just gotten a Complete rifle lower, since those are legal for 18 and above still, but there was nothing on the website about needing to be 21 and they never asked on the phone, so I had no idea until it had already arrived at the FFL. Sitting here with low funds, confused on wth is going on with these shifting laws, and the FFL is calling the ATF tomorrow to see what to do and I quote "there are two possibilities, one is they hold it until they can transfer in on my birthday (a couple months or so and this is what I think the FFL SHOULD do), or they may just have the ATF pick up the lower"--I have no idea why or how they can do this.

frog5215, PM sent

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Are you talking about a STRIPPED lower or a partially milled (finished) lower? If you are talking about going to a gun shop and plopping money down on an aftermarket lower receiver like a DPMS or something, then it is the same as buying a full assault weapon. You buy the lower, lower receiver parts kit, and all the stuff for the upper. Once you have the lower in hand you can build anything upon it aside from a pistol or SBR without filling out additional paperwork.

You talk about the "complete rifle lower" which makes me envision a lower receiver with all the fire control parts and the buttstock. If you are talking about finishing a 60% lower then the rules are different. I think of one thing when you say stripped lower. Maybe we are thinking of different things.

Josh

 

[silverphoenix]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

I'm talking about a stripped lower to build on---no internals or stock or anything.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

so you paid for it? and the local ffl wont do the transfer? why dont you be a nice guy and show your dad how to build his new AR15? maybe he will let you shoot it? maybe after he goes in and does the FFL transfer and you build it for him and he shoots it, he wont like it and sell it for you a $1... on your birthday even. if there is a chance they will ship it back to the maker and the maker will take it back, just re-order if they will deal with you again. because if they send it to the ATF... anyone? will he lose it? have your dad walk in, hand you the cash, buying the lower and do the transfer. would that be acceptable to the ATF/FFL/FBI/WHO-EVER?

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Alright. I built an SPR clone. These were the steps involved:

1. Walked into my local gun shop (I was stationed in Norfolk, VA at the time)
2. As for one of the DPMS stripped lowers
3. Filled out the same paperwork I would for any weapon
4. Waited for my background check to come through
5. Walked out with the lower

I had already ordered the lower parts kit, which is everything you need to complete the lower minus the buffer tube, buffer, spring, and stock. If you order a stock, most will come with it. Just make sure you get the correct length buffer for the stock (carbine or rifle). I then ordered all my upper parts (upper receiver, bolt, carrier, handguard, barrel, and gas system.) Make sure the gas system length that you order matches the length on your barrel. I bought a vise, receiver clamping block (you can get one from the online AR-15 shops), armorers multi tool, some hi temp grease for the barrel nut threads, and some brass punches. You will need the punches to push all the roll pins in on the gas block and lower. Make sure you get the brass ones because they will be a touch more forgiving if you slip up. There is an assembly tutorial here. I followed that tutorial and was finished with the lower in 45 minutes (first time ever assembling one). Follow the instructions for the upper based on which handguard system you buy. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. Best of luck...it is a lot of fun until you have to leave it behind because you PCS to Kalifornia.

ETA: Don't screw around with the laws. If you can't wait a few months...well, just wait.

Josh

 

[frog5215]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Ask if they'll do a lay-away and pay for it.
Come back when you're 21 to execute the transfer.

Or the dealer will likely sell it to your father, all of which is legal.

Whoever finished the stripped receiver (Spike's in this case) is the manufacturer. Yo don't need any special license to assemble the rest of the parts onto it to complete your lower.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Damn, late again to the party. But the reason a receiver or a frame cannot be transfered to a person under the age of 21 has nothing to do with pistol/handguns. The reason is the law implicetly states that Long Guns - Rifles and Shotguns ONLY can be transfered to a person under 21 but at least 18 years old. This is why they don't qualify as a handgun either (multiple handgun form). They are NOT a Rifle, they are NOT a shotgun, and they are NOT a handgun, until they meet the minimum requirement of the description of such. an AR reciever must meet the minimum qualifications as a rifle or pistol before it will be considered as such. The seperate designation for frames and receivers only recently made an appearance as such on the 4473 form, but the law stating that only a Long Gun (Rifle or Shotgun) can be transfered to someone 18-21 has been in effect for much longer.

Dave

 

[CJS10mm]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

If you buy one with a stock installed already you avoid the need for the wait since once it is built with a stock its a rifle forever (or until you SBR it).

 

[GasLight]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CJS10mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you buy one with a stock installed already you avoid the need for the wait since once it is built with a stock its a rifle forever (or until you SBR it). </div></div>

While an FFL holder might have done that for you in the past, that isn't how it works, and is NOT legal. The receiver has to be built to the point that it is considered a Long Gun PERIOD. This law and the definitions have NOTHING to do with what it can or cannot be built into, but what it is at the time of sale by definition. To be a rifle, it needs to have a barrel longer than 16" and must be 26" overall (IIRC), if it does not meet that definition, it is NOT a long gun, and therefore can NOT be transfered to a person under the age of 21.

 

[CJS10mm]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

DebosDave,
I was NOT saying that the FFL holder should attach a stock to the bare receiver and then hand it to the person buying the rifle. I have never asked anyone to do this as I have been 21 since the 1994 AWB sunset kicked in. Go ahead and use your brain to read what I wrote. I am sure that other people understood it this way as well, if not I am sorry I should have been more clear but here is a good example:
If I go to the gun show, walk up to a licensed dealer and pick up a complete lower (with a stock on it and LPK installed) and ask the guy behind the table to remove the stock, LPK and sell the LOWER only to me and register it as a pistol, I am asking him to commit a felony as it has already been built into a rifle. I understand that there is the minimum length statue but i would be willing to bet if you asked the ATF they would say that if you attach a stock to it, it is a RIFLE FOREVER.

I was not trying to give silverpheonix a "way around" the law by having the FFL holder attach a stock, simply stating he could buy an already assembled lower.

 

[silverphoenix]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Thanks for all the info---talked to spikes today and they are AWESOME! Best customer service I can recommend. I looked at one of my friend's lowers who got one of them in the group buy---I was very impressed with the quality and can't wait to get mine in a couple months!
I'm having the lower sent back and to another FFL, who has kindly agreed to hold onto the lower for me until I'm 21 and can transfer it then. I even got a better price on the transfer.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Dans40x, being his jolly self PMd me and said he took my above statement as meaning we do accept receivers..... WEll we DO NOT.

I dont know how "We dont coat lowers because of FFL transfers. As with bolt receivers", is very hard to understand Dan the Man.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave ©</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CJS10mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you buy one with a stock installed already you avoid the need for the wait since once it is built with a stock its a rifle forever (or until you SBR it). </div></div>

While an FFL holder might have done that for you in the past, that isn't how it works, and is NOT legal. The receiver has to be built to the point that it is considered a Long Gun PERIOD. This law and the definitions have NOTHING to do with what it can or cannot be built into, but what it is at the time of sale by definition. To be a rifle, it needs to have a barrel longer than 16" and must be 26" overall (IIRC), if it does not meet that definition, it is NOT a long gun, and therefore can NOT be transfered to a person under the age of 21. </div></div>

Interesting information but when I bought my Lowers I asked if I could build pistols or rifles with them. The manufacturer I got them from told me NO. I thought they told me that when the serial numbers were assigned to them they had to be assigned as "Rifle" or "Pistol" Lowers. Maybe it was when the 4473 was filled out. Either way, I was told I could NOT make pistols with the stripped Lowers I bought because they were specifically "Rifle" Lowers.

 

[dtask]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting information but when I bought my Lowers I asked if I could build pistols or rifles with them. The manufacturer I got them from told me NO. I thought they told me that when the serial numbers were assigned to them they had to be assigned as "Rifle" or "Pistol" Lowers. Maybe it was when the 4473 was filled out. Either way, I was told I could NOT make pistols with the stripped Lowers I bought because they were specifically "Rifle" Lowers. </div></div>

Could be why the caliber or the term multi-caliber is stamped into the lower? Seems strange though, because how come you can build a Charger 10/22 pistol out of a 10/22 rifle receiver without issue?

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtask</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting information but when I bought my Lowers I asked if I could build pistols or rifles with them. The manufacturer I got them from told me NO. I thought they told me that when the serial numbers were assigned to them they had to be assigned as "Rifle" or "Pistol" Lowers. Maybe it was when the 4473 was filled out. Either way, I was told I could NOT make pistols with the stripped Lowers I bought because they were specifically "Rifle" Lowers. </div></div>


Could be why the caliber or the term multi-caliber is stamped into the lower? Seems strange though, because how come you can build a Charger 10/22 pistol out of a 10/22 rifle receiver without issue? </div></div>

Just FYI... My Stripped Lowers are marked "Multi".

 

[GasLight]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CJS10mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> DebosDave,
I was NOT saying that the FFL holder should attach a stock to the bare receiver and then hand it to the person buying the rifle. I have never asked anyone to do this as I have been 21 since the 1994 AWB sunset kicked in. Go ahead and use your brain to read what I wrote. I am sure that other people understood it this way as well, if not I am sorry I should have been more clear but here is a good example:
If I go to the gun show, walk up to a licensed dealer and pick up a complete lower (with a stock on it and LPK installed) and ask the guy behind the table to remove the stock, LPK and sell the LOWER only to me and register it as a pistol, I am asking him to commit a felony as it has already been built into a rifle. I understand that there is the minimum length statue but i would be willing to bet if you asked the ATF they would say that if you attach a stock to it, it is a RIFLE FOREVER.

I was not trying to give silverpheonix a "way around" the law by having the FFL holder attach a stock, simply stating he could buy an already assembled lower.</div></div>

You are not reading what I am typing. It does NOT matter if the thing can be built into a pistol or not... Re-read what I said. You can NOT transfer a lower receiver complete or not as a Long Gun. It does NOT matter if it can ever legally be a pistol or not. a complete lower without an upper is NOT a Long Gun, it will not meet the definition that would make it a Long Gun THEREFORE you can NOT transfer a complete lower, a stripped lower, an action without a barrel attached, or even a barrled action that is not 26" long overall to a person under the age of 21. Read the law man, this has NOTHING to do with, I repeat NOTHING to do with it being able or not able to be built into a pistol, it ONLY has to do with it meeting the definition of a Long Gun (Rifle or Shotgun). The reason frames/receivers don't have to go on a multiple handgun form is because they are NOT pistols/handguns either...

I was not implying anything about having a rifle lower built into a pistol man, read what I was saying

 

[frog5215]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Dtask, you're mistaken.You can't legally build a Charger on a 10/22 receiver. Although some vendors offer stripped receivers, Ruger has never shipped bare receivers, so they're all either pistols (marked "Charger") or carbines (marked"10/22 Carbine).
No-Dak and other manufacturers likely offer indeterimnate stripped receivers that can go either way, but no factory Ruger 10/22 Carbine receivers can go Charger without a stamp.

Phoenix, I'm glad you it figured out. Overall, I think you'll be delighted with your Spike's lower. Later, you won't even remember the wait.

 

[CJS10mm]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> snip..
Interesting information but when I bought my Lowers I asked if I could build pistols or rifles with them. The manufacturer I got them from told me NO. I thought they told me that when the serial numbers were assigned to them they had to be assigned as "Rifle" or "Pistol" Lowers. Maybe it was when the 4473 was filled out. Either way, I was told I could NOT make pistols with the stripped Lowers I bought because they were specifically "Rifle" Lowers. </div></div>
Who is the Manufacturer of the lower?
As stated in this thread it must be manufactured form a virgin receiver. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=200876 post #18 (link to letter no longer works at the top but the letter is written out in post#18)

When I purchased my MEGA Machine lower it was not a pistol marked lower but because MEGA does not manufacture firearms it does not matter. I just had to fill out a 4473 and the state pistol form and it is a pistol. You have to still make "other" for the stripped receiver but as soon as you fill out the state pistol form (here in WA, not sure the number) it is a pistol as long as the original manufacturer has not built it into a Rifle before selling it. If The manufacturer of the lower can build firearms then you have to have a letter from them certifying that it is a virgin receiver and has never been built into a rifle.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

i was wondering about the charger deal. in my last sportsmans guide they are selling a charger conversion kit. i showed a buddy and he said it was illegal too.

 

[frog5215]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Axeman, they did this last year and I had some E-mail correspondence with them, and they withdrew it.On another issue , (the Glock buttstock) they added "all NFA rules apply" language, like the average SG catalog recipient knows what that means.
ATF clearly feels that even something starting as a pistol, once converted to a rifle, can't go back to pistol status without SBR paper/stamp. Contenders are a specific exception.
There is at least one John Spencer letter circulating to that effect.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CJS10mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> snip..
Interesting information but when I bought my Lowers I asked if I could build pistols or rifles with them. The manufacturer I got them from told me NO. I thought they told me that when the serial numbers were assigned to them they had to be assigned as "Rifle" or "Pistol" Lowers. Maybe it was when the 4473 was filled out. Either way, I was told I could NOT make pistols with the stripped Lowers I bought because they were specifically "Rifle" Lowers. </div></div>
Who is the Manufacturer of the lower?
As stated in this thread it must be manufactured form a virgin receiver. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=200876 post #18 (link to letter no longer works at the top but the letter is written out in post#18)

When I purchased my MEGA Machine lower it was not a pistol marked lower but because MEGA does not manufacture firearms it does not matter. I just had to fill out a 4473 and the state pistol form and it is a pistol. You have to still make "other" for the stripped receiver but as soon as you fill out the state pistol form (here in WA, not sure the number) it is a pistol as long as the original manufacturer has not built it into a Rifle before selling it. If The manufacturer of the lower can build firearms then you have to have a letter from them certifying that it is a virgin receiver and has never been built into a rifle.
</div></div>
As I think about this more I think the manufacturer told me that they were put on the 4473 as rifles. I'm pretty sure it was before BATF updated the form to include "Receivers" as an option.

I just thought about something else that's interesting... If a Lower was not specified as a rifle lower or pistol lower how would the 3 day wait for pistols here in Florida be enforced? I'm sure there are even more strict laws regarding Pistol vs. Rifle purchases in other states. Hmmm...

 

[silverphoenix]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Does the ATF let anyone know when something is changed, or is it one of those things where you have to constantly check the laws or your SOL? It seems like most of them haven't changed significantly in a while, but it would be bad for them to change something recently, no one know it, and people get in a bind because of it.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

if you look thru sportsmans guide you will also see that they carry a full auto lower from a G3/HK91 and also include the NFA rules apply verbiage. slap that on a CETME or G3/HK91 and you have a selective fire full auto rifle. they also sell a 5.7 upper for an AR thats got an 11.5" barrel. that seems to make it easy to break the law if one were so inclined.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

If I were paranoid... And sometimes I am... I would be afraid BATF had some kind of deal with them to let BATF know any time someone bought one of those. Just sayin'...

 

[GasLight]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Here is the blurb on the 4473, it includes the references to the laws in question:

 

[shadow_sniper]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Hang on so let me get this straight. All this he said they said crap has got me confused. So when I turn 18 in 8 months and 22 days I can not buy a striped lower but I can buy a full AR?

 

[CJS10mm]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Dave,
Now that I think about it more, I remember Cavalry Arms having customers under 21 ship rifle uppers to them and "manufacturing" a rifle for them so that they can have one of their Cav15 lowers. Thanks for the info.

CM92, yes this means you can not buy a stripped lower at the age of 18 but CAN buy a complete rifle.

Axeman, I also noticed that they added the "All NFA rules apply" to the Charger kits when I first saw that I told my dad about it, he did not understand, so I educated him on SBR's and such. He showed me the next catalog where it said this.

Casey

 

[shadow_sniper]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CJS10mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave,

CM92, yes this means you can not buy a stripped lower at the age of 18 but CAN buy a complete rifle.
</div></div>
wow that makes a lot of sense.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cm92</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CJS10mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave,

CM92, yes this means you can not buy a stripped lower at the age of 18 but CAN buy a complete rifle.
</div></div>
wow that makes a lot of sense.
</div></div>

This is also strictly through an FFL holder. You can own a stripped lower, and can buy a stripped lower through a private party. That is if it is legal otherwise in your area. You just won't be able to order a lower from anywhere that will require an FFL transfer to you. That would include individuals who reside outside of your state of residence. If you find someone in your state you should have no problems purchasing one that way. A gun show might be a good way to procure one.

Dave

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

ok i read the law too. but what if after his birthday he went to the dealer and filled it out the 4473 and made the call and got approved and went home with his lower. who is at fault in that case? the FFL? the guys at nics for not catching it when it was called in? his for not knowing the rules that an FFL has to follow? didnt he say a local FFL was gonna hold it for him til then?

oneshot onekill, they would have to have that deal with cheaper than dirt too and how many others? honestly if the government was really worried about someone slapping one on a G3 and having a SEF battle rifle, why do they even allow the lowers to be sold? then they complain about full auto stuff being out there. it reminds me of the footlocker scene in full metal jacket.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

AXE, the law is the responsibility of the FFL holder to follow. If he waits until after his birthday, then he will be 21 at the time of the sale, and he will be legal to transfer the item to, no harm no foul.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

ahh, my bad. i got lost in the thread. i was thinking he was waiting on his 18th not his 21st. all the FFL talk threw me off.

 

[dtask]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dtask, you're mistaken.You can't legally build a Charger on a 10/22 receiver. Although some vendors offer stripped receivers, Ruger has never shipped bare receivers, so they're all either pistols (marked "Charger") or carbines (marked"10/22 Carbine).
No-Dak and other manufacturers likely offer indeterimnate stripped receivers that can go either way, but no factory Ruger 10/22 Carbine receivers can go Charger without a stamp.</div></div>

My receivers are not stamped "carbine" anywhere on them - they are simply stamped "Model 10/22" and under that, ".22lr caliber".

I went to two gun shops here in town looking for some 45 long colt ammo yesterday afternoon and checked out their Charger pistols and all had those same markings my little plinker does- so does that mean that these shops are all in violation of said law?

I gotta call the BATFE on Monday anyway, if I remember I'll just ask them about this then.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

i have only seen two of them, are they called chargers? but it was after seeing the kit and my buddy telling me that, but it did say what ever the name was on the side. i remember looking after being told that the kits were illegal. its that side stamping that makes the small one a pistol i thought. thats how they market it dont they? it goes on the 4473 as a pistol?


dtask, you saw chargers that werent stamped charger? maybe someone built them from a kit and is selling them off like that. you gotta figure the kits are being bought by someone. werent the chargers being sold for a higher price than a basic 10/22 when they first came out? arent they still now? im just asking, dont take it the wrong way. i dont know anything about them i just recall they were a hot ticket. maybe someone saw the demand and decided to supply

 

[dtask]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

Yes, I saw Charger pistols that were receiver marked identically to my 10/22 rifle. I would assume that you are right - that these were built in the gun store (or possibly taken on trade) and, after reading this thread & if I'm understanding it correctly, not built legally - but I wouldn't know for sure.

Since receiving my FFL, I have only dealt with complete complete/factory firearms.
I am interested in the topic simply because I want to stay on the right side of legal issues and continue learning the easy way!

One thing I will say and it may be a bit off topic, is that after sitting down with the BATFE agent I realized that every shop that I had bought from in my AO had something that would red flag them going on & in only one instance would I call it "willful". I think that a lot of FFL's just don't know the laws and that is another reason this forum is a great tool.

 

[frog5215]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

My Charger's at the office, but I'm pretty sure it says only "Charger".If the other shop built these, they could be in deep trouble.
My kid and I just checked 5 of the family's many 10/22s. The old ones all say "10/22 Carbine" above ".22LR Caliber". The newest one like that is 5 years old, or so. The newest, bought from GunKings as a receiver (derived from a complete carbine he parted out new) says only "10/22" above the caliber stamp. It's between 2 and 3 years old.
I'm pretty sure all the factory Chargers I've ever seen were so stamped.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Legal questions on stripped lowers

dtask its possible that some ffl somewhere thought as long as he sold them chargers as pistols or marked pistol on the 4473, the fact that he made them from the 3 or 4 10/22s he had not been able to sell for the past few years wouldnt matter that he used a kit to build them. i swear they were going for what? $400 when they first hit? id go check my 10/22s but... well im lazy ok?