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Legality of Suppressors

R

Richard Clark

Private
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2010
15
0
32
Lewiston, ID USA
Hey Hide,

I am trying to convince my father to purchase a suppressor for me (I am 18). I am wondering if he purchases it can I put it on my rifle?

I own a 1911 because of that kind of workaround, just wondering if a suppressor is the same way.

EDIT: The 1911 was an 18th birthday gift. This EDIT is to eliminate confusion.

Thanks,
Rich
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

I am not an expert, however, if he is the owner listed on the Form 4 that the suppressor was transferred to, it has to remain in his control.

You can shoot it, sure, but he has to be there (you can't take it out by yourself).

Go to the ATF website for FAQs or talk to your class III dealer for more info.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimsson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Hide,

I am trying to convince my father to purchase a suppressor for me (I am 18). I am wondering if he purchases it can I put it on my rifle?

I own a 1911 because of that kind of workaround, just wondering if a suppressor is the same way.

Thanks,
Rich </div></div>

SO you are admitting you have had your father make an illegal straw purchase for you ? Thats a real nice son.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

In a word...NO!

That would be illegal. $250k fine and 10yrs imprisonment. Just wait patiently for a few years and then do it yourself.

Like the man said...check out the AFT site re: legalities of suppressor ownership and the necessary application/tax stamp required for same.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimsson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I own a 1911 because of that kind of <span style="font-weight: bold">workaround</span>...

Thanks,
Rich </div></div>

Workaround...is that what the kids are calling it nowadays?
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimsson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Hide,

I am trying to convince my father to purchase a suppressor for me (I am 18). I am wondering if he purchases it can I put it on my rifle?

I own a 1911 because of that kind of workaround, just wondering if a suppressor is the same way.

Thanks,
Rich </div></div>

SO you are admitting you have had your father make an illegal straw purchase for you ? Thats a real nice son. </div></div>

Not saying anything about suppressors because I do not know all the laws. However, if Grimsson's father bought a 1911 and gave it to him as a gift it is totally, 100% legal as far as the federal government is concerned.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATF Federal Firearms Regulation Guide, P. 166</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.</div></div>

Depending on the state, however, it may be illegal under state law for a minor to possess a handgun.

 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

"F" the State, they've already trampled your Rights enough.


"dammit somebody's been typing on computer again" "prank call, prank call"
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

The person that has the suppressor is registered to must remain in control of it at all times. If you took the suppressor out without your father, you and him are going to be in serious trouble. 10 years in federal prison probably wont be to fun.

A parent can buy their child, 18 and over, a pistol but they can only go from point A to B with it. There is no carrying it in the car and all that. Otherwise you must be supervised with it.

Wait till you turn 21 for C3 items. Unless you like the federal booty house!
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

Guys, fed law doesn't regulate possession of rifles vs pistols differently for ages 18 and up-- only the purchase requirements FROM AN FFL. What he is describing with the handgun is a gift purchase and is legal per fed law. State and local laws vary, but many states dont address this either-- no law on the books = no law broken.

As long as your father retains control (storage and transport) of the device and accompanies it everywhere, it doesn't matter who's rifle it is on or who is using it. It's legally his and in his possession.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

I read it as, since I couldnt purchase the gun myself I had my dad buy it for me .... THAT is an illegal straw purchase.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read it as, since I couldnt purchase the gun myself I had my dad buy it for me .... THAT is an illegal straw purchase. </div></div>

So, on Saturday at the MDF banquet, the kid who won the Henry rifle wasn't old enough and so they told his father to go on in a pick it up for him. Straw purchase or "custodial" gift? And is there any difference here other than a raffle vs. purchase because either way, a 4473 is in order.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtask</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read it as, since I couldnt purchase the gun myself I had my dad buy it for me .... THAT is an illegal straw purchase. </div></div>

So, on Saturday at the MDF banquet, the kid who won the Henry rifle wasn't old enough and so they told his father to go on in a pick it up for him. Straw purchase or "custodial" gift? And is there any difference here other than a raffle vs. purchase because either way, a 4473 is in order. </div></div>

That is gambling ..... thats a whole nother box of worms.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is gambling ..... thats a whole nother box of worms. </div></div>

smile.gif
Perception is everything
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

OK so I edited the OP so that argument would die. Not a straw purchase or whatever you call it.

What I intended to do with the suppressor would have been illegal so I am just going to live with out one for a couple of years, not worth losing the opportunity to serve in the Army.

Thanks for the assistance.

EDIT: Is there an easy way to locate Class 3 dealers in my area?
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

There is a way to get a suppressor at 18. I remember seeing a thread on AR15.com about it. Might check there.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

I am not sure but somebody here that is smarter probably can answer the question could he have his dad go the trust route with him listed on there as well?
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyson77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure but somebody here that is smarter probably can answer the question could he have his dad go the trust route with him listed on there as well? </div></div>

That was what I was thinking. Trust or LLC with OP as an officer with the LLC or listed on the trust. Or do you have to be 21+ to possess the suppressor at all.

I know my 14 year old son is listed on my trust, but my father is listed as having custodial possession until my son is legal to possess.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

In many states you can purchase handguns and suppressors from PRIVATE individuals at 18+. You can't buy a new handgun or a suppressor from a dealer under 21 in any state.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

need VS want

Just wait 3 years............I don't think you are limited to any type of training or practice without a suppressor.

3 years is better than no chance of owning one, like us in Cali.
frown.gif
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

What about amancipation. I was legal to work in a casino at the age 18. Don't know if those laws have changee or apply to this.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

The father giving a 1911 to the son is not a straw purchase. If the father bought it new from an FFL dealer and turned right around and gave it away, then it could potentially be seen as such. Otherwise it would just be a private party transfer, legal at 18 depending on your state.

Like mentioned above, you may be able to be listed on the trust that owns said NFA item (suppressor in this case), but I'm not sure if all members must be 21. This is a question to ask Department of Justice, send an email, ask for a letter IN WRITING, and wait.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Butter18c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a way to get a suppressor at 18. I remember seeing a thread on AR15.com about it. Might check there. </div></div>

yes their is, if iam not mistaken his dad can do a trust and put him as next up if his dad was to pass away.... all the kid has to do ( in my understanding ) is to carry the trust around with him as well as the other paper work.

besides i though nfa items could be past on to sons and daughters but not on to people like step dads and such
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyson77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure but somebody here that is smarter probably can answer the question could he have his dad go the trust route with him listed on there as well? </div></div>

NO. The trustees all have to be 21 and over. My lawyer told me that as soon as I picked my successors.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Butter18c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a way to get a suppressor at 18. I remember seeing a thread on AR15.com about it. Might check there. </div></div>

yes their is, if iam not mistaken his dad can do a trust and put him as next up if his dad was to pass away.... all the kid has to do ( in my understanding ) is to carry the trust around with him as well as the other paper work.

besides i though nfa items could be past on to sons and daughters but not on to people like step dads and such </div></div>

You are way off base. Read my above post. You MUST BE 21 and over to possess a NFA item or "control" it.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: $KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Butter18c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a way to get a suppressor at 18. I remember seeing a thread on AR15.com about it. Might check there. </div></div>

yes their is, if iam not mistaken his dad can do a trust and put him as next up if his dad was to pass away.... all the kid has to do ( in my understanding ) is to carry the trust around with him as well as the other paper work.

besides i though nfa items could be past on to sons and daughters but not on to people like step dads and such </div></div>

You are way off base. Read my above post. You MUST BE 21 and over to possess a NFA item or "control" it. </div></div>

Well, there's your answer. Just have to wait.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: $KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Butter18c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a way to get a suppressor at 18. I remember seeing a thread on AR15.com about it. Might check there. </div></div>

yes their is, if iam not mistaken his dad can do a trust and put him as next up if his dad was to pass away.... all the kid has to do ( in my understanding ) is to carry the trust around with him as well as the other paper work.

besides i though nfa items could be past on to sons and daughters but not on to people like step dads and such </div></div>

You are way off base. Read my above post. You MUST BE 21 and over to possess a NFA item or "control" it. </div></div>


hmm goes to show what i know..... iam not hip to all the amerikan rules and regs like all the other cool cats out their
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read it as, since I couldnt purchase the gun myself I had my dad buy it for me .... THAT is an illegal straw purchase. </div></div>

are you like the internet police or somthing ? I am not trying to be an a$$ but i see way to much of this kinda stuff going on in various post and it's starting to drive me crazy.

So some one did this or some one didnt know how to word exactly what they are trying to say or though... so what dont bust the poor kids balls and make him fell like a criminal
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
SO you are admitting you have had your father make an illegal straw purchase for you ? </div></div>

Gift guns wouldn't be categorized as a straw purchase.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Butter18c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a way to get a suppressor at 18. I remember seeing a thread on AR15.com about it. Might check there. </div></div>

Via trust?
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
SO you are admitting you have had your father make an illegal straw purchase for you ? </div></div>

Gift guns wouldn't be categorized as a straw purchase. </div></div>

That is partially incorrect. Gift purchases are legal if both parties can legally possess the firearm in question. However, if the original purchaser specifically made the purchase with the intent to transfer the firearm to a person who was under a legal disability to own the firearm...then you've got a problem. In this case, unless state law specifically permitted it, the legal disability is one of age. The purchase by someone 21yo or older of a handgun with the intent of "transferring" it to someone who was under 21yo COULD be considered an illegal straw purchase.

As for the trust issues...I don't know why it is so hard to understand that an NFA trust cannot be legally created if a person to be named on the trust is under a legal disability (again...age) and prohibited from ownership of an NFA item (suppressor).
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

It's worth pointing out here that trusts aren't the <span style="font-weight: bold">only</span> means of NFA ownership. Theoretically*, depending on his state laws and local law enforcement's inclination to sign-off, he could purchase a registered suppressor directly from another individual in his state, and bypass the age restrictions on FFL sales and trusts by purchasing in his own name, sending in fingerprints, etc. Or, he could alternatively Form 1 a can and build it himself through the same process.

*I am not a lawyer, didn't play one on TV, and didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this case, unless state law specifically permitted it, the legal disability is one of age. The purchase by someone 21yo or older of a handgun with the intent of "transferring" it to someone who was under 21yo COULD be considered an illegal straw purchase.</div></div>

You misunderstand the laws in question. There are no federal laws prohibiting possession of handguns by those under 21, and if there were, state laws could not allow that possession. In fact, it is illegal for someone under 21, or even under 18, to posses or own handguns IF AND ONLY IF it is illegal under state law in the state in question.

And even then a straw purchase is when one person executes the purchase of a firearm for another person (i.e., here is my money, go buy that for me), regardless of whether neither, one, or both parties are prohibited from owning or possessing firearms.

Giving a firearm as a gift to someone who is prohibited from owning or possessing firearms may be a crime (that's a question complicated by a lot of other issues) but it doesn't have anything to do with a straw purchase.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham's Rule #1 applies here. </div></div>

Its better to ask for foregiviness, than permission?
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

Nope: Don't seek legal advice from laypeople.

Doing so is poor use of the internet.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's worth pointing out here that trusts aren't the <span style="font-weight: bold">only</span> means of NFA ownership. Theoretically*, depending on his state laws and local law enforcement's inclination to sign-off, he could purchase a registered suppressor directly from another individual in his state, and bypass the age restrictions on FFL sales and trusts by purchasing in his own name, sending in fingerprints, etc. Or, he could alternatively Form 1 a can and build it himself through the same process.

*I am not a lawyer, didn't play one on TV, and didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night. </div></div>

Still doesn't change the fact that the OP is not of correct age to possess the item. You cant jump around the laws by an in state transfer.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read it as, since I couldnt purchase the gun myself I had my dad buy it for me .... THAT is an illegal straw purchase. </div></div>

are you like the internet police or somthing ? I am not trying to be an a$$ but i see way to much of this kinda stuff going on in various post and it's starting to drive me crazy.

So some one did this or some one didnt know how to word exactly what they are trying to say or though... so what dont bust the poor kids balls and make him fell like a criminal </div></div>

I think its more of it strikes a nerve when people see others doing something shady. This instance, to OUTSY it sounded incorrect. But I still don't think you need to be correcting people on their internet call outs. If you have something to say, say it. Its an opinion based forum. It also gets old when people offer up advice to a federal issue and then people like yourself comment incorrectly. Which could result in someone getting into hot water by taking your wayward advice.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

Form 1s and in-state Form 4 transfers (between individuals, no FFL involved) for buyers/builders under 21 have been approved. Where are you getting your information that someone HAS to be 21 to possess?


CHRIS
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cixelsyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Form 1s and in-state Form 4 transfers for buyers/builders under 21 (between individuals, no FFL involved) have been approved. Where are you getting your information that someone HAS to be 21 to possess?


CHRIS </div></div>

Thats the way I am hearing it from the ATF/NFA Branch when I called to speak to Mr. Howard about it. If thats the case then why could my brother who is a month shy of 21 be refused approval of a form 4 SBR ?
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

I don't know why he'd be refused. Was he buying from a dealer?



CHRIS
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

He would have to be buying from a dealer or licensed person to be denied.

Why the laws read they way they do with regards to dealers versus private individuals and sales of handguns, long guns and "NFA" items is albeit wierd but law. Short of a state restriction, a person 18 years of age can obtain, and then legally posess, a handgun or NFA item from an unlicensed seller subject to other requirements. One of those other requirements being, mind you, that to avoid a dealer/FFL/SOT you must reside in the same state.

To the original poster, do not believe any of us. Graham is correct, you are getting what you pay for. If you want to own or use an NFA item you should at least read the federal law and then review your state law. It really isn't that complicated.

I have also found that your local ATF office has at least one person who is very well versed in the laws and regulations.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: $KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You are way off base. Read my above post. You MUST BE 21 and over to possess a NFA item or "control" it. </div></div>

You are incorrect. There are two ways of owning a silencer or other NFA item between the ages of 18 and 21. You can file a form 1 and build one yourself, or you can have one transferred to you from an INDIVIDUAL in your own state (depending on state law and legal in many states).

A person between 18 and 21 can not purchase a suppressor from a dealer in any state. This rules out out of state individual purchases as they have to go through a dealer in the buyer's state.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

Ya, I have heard to many counter posts to want to do anything without talking with a lawman.

Also in ID what my dad did is not illegal, so that point can just stop being made.

I am going to start finding/talking to an ATF agent to see if it is legal for me in anyway to fire/own/buy a suppressor. If it illegal then I will just have to wait.

----

One clarification I would like would be the term of "individual" and "straw purchase" via examples

So I have a good shooting buddy who is a FFL, can he sell me a suppressor? <span style="font-style: italic">[legal or not]</span>

A friend buys a suppressor and the next day I buy it from him, he never had an intention of owning it. <span style="font-style: italic">[seems like straw purchase to me]</span>

I find a guy in ID who is just looking to sell his because he needs some cash. <span style="font-style: italic">[legal or not]</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">EDIT: Grammatical Errors</span>
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

You can buy a silencer from a person in your state (without going through a dealer) on an ATF form 4 or make it on an ATF form 1 as long as you are at least 18 years old. The ATF will approve it. There is a thread about this age requirement on SilencerTalk if you want to read it.

If anyone disgrees, then all they have to do is post the link to the law or regulation that prohibits silencer ownership by anyone under 21. Good luck as no such federal law exists.
smile.gif


Ranb
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

This under 21 business aside, I think I'd hold off on buying something like a suppressor if you have intentions on joining the Army. I'm not sure how easy or difficult it will be to move from duty station to duty station with it. I know there are some hoops you have to jump through to own a firearm, if you end up in the barracks (i.e. unmarried young E-nothing). Might not be worth the trouble until you get settled down some.


CHRIS
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimsson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I will be an 0-1...let the officer jokes begin...</div></div>

Kind of hard to own a silencer when you're at college.... ???
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

As a suppressor owner: if you and your father are willing to go to federal, "pound me in the ass" prison, go for it. It is illegal as hell for a suppressor he owns to be out of his direct control, and his name and picture will be on the Form 4. Not only can you not own it, you can't possess it or transport it without him very, very close by.


When I was in college, suppressors were the last thing on my mind.

Wait till you are 21, enjoy the stupidity of youth, and try not to die from the stupidity of youth.
 
Re: Legality of Suppressors

Ya I really don't need internet peoples telling me what to be doing with my college time.

I am essentially done with this thread, going to talk with the Feds/Locals.

Thanks for all the useful PMers.

EDIT: Was not trying to be a dick to Rancid, didn't mean to come off that way at all.
 
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