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Suppressors Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 16, 2008
9,583
2,322
none of your business
Hi Guys,

I wanted some opinions on all top line 1911's.

I read that Les Baer machines their slides,frames,etc after heat treatment and that they are very precise.I'm leaning toward getting one.

The ones I've handled have been the tightest fitting 1911's.Whats your overall impression on them and the others?

What would be some differences pro's,con's between all the top 1911's?

Steve
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I don't think you could choose wrong. Either one is a plus in the hand or in the safe. They all hold their value as well... SmokeRolls
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Wilson is proof that you don't need a gun that tight to be accurate! Try field stripping a Les Baer!
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Top of the line? Those are all semi-production guns. Look at custom gunsmiths for a custom gun. You get a semi-production gun when you buy one of the aforementioned brands and, while they can be nice, you can get a true custom for the same as some of those.

If you're looking at those, however, I'd go for a used Les Baer or Rock River 1911 for sheer quality for value.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Turk,

Are they that tight?What do you mean?

Harold,

That's a thought.I wonder what advantages a true custom would have over the semi production.

I forgot to mention that when I talked to the Les Baer gunsmith at the Shot Show,he said they have bins of parts on the their table and that they pick a part as to how well it fits in the gun they are building at the moment and then tune it for optimum fit and function.It seems that this would be an advantage over some of the other companies.Yes?...No?

Gunsmiths.What do think about this?

Steve

 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

If you're considering any one those I would recommend contacting Luke Volkmann over at Volkmann Custom

They have been reviewed and used by Clint Smith a couple of times now since I introduced them to him and Luke used to work for Ed Brown for several years.

Here is a match pair of his Sniper's Hide Edition 1911s, the Combatant Carry SHC and the full sized Combatant SHP.
SH_PICV-2.jpg


I was in the shop this week and we were actually looking at my Wilson and he was showing the major finishing differences, the flats, the unfinished edges on the Wilson, granted that is more of a semi-production piece, but they are only like $300 difference. There was a Gun-Test article, and the Volkmann beat out the Wilson and Les Baer in the accuracy department, although because he is more expensive he took a hit in their overall, but it was a clear winner if you read the entire test.

He a small shop and does a great job paying attention to the detail while putting out a first rate 1911.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I've owned 2 Les Baers and am planning on buying a PII soon.

I've got to shoot a few wilsons and nighthawks and they were all very nice.

However with all those its going to come down to what you want in the gun.

I personally hate the dark flat finish on the wilsons and nighthawks and I dislike stainless guns so I'll stick with standard blueing on the baer.

FYI -- John at PROLOAD is going to be having a independence day sale next week. I called him the other day and not only got specs and price on the pistol I want but also a history of IDPA a good way to get gameiness out of elk and nice description of Idaho. Super nice guy and has a best price guaruntee.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I actually dropped off my orginal combatant carry that I got from Volkmann a year ago, and he sent it in to Robar for the NP3 coating.

this was it back a year ago:
volkmann1.jpg


But since then its been used pretty good and the SERPA holster as well as a couple of classes beat it up pretty good so he recommended the Robar NP3

It will end up looking like this when it comes back:

CCA_DT_NP3_2.jpg
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Yes that tight! You had better make sure you have a steel bushing wrench around! Forget the plastic ones.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

LowLight that is cool.... Sharp weapons.....I've been wondering about getting a fairly tight stainless 1911 NP-3 coated but I wonder about the NP-3 coating making the tighness even tighter. Any suggestions or recommendations? I will check out his site though...SmokeRolls
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I sold my Ed Browns after buying two Springfield PRO models which in my situation were a better pistol (my EB's had to go back for service upon their arrival on my end, easy fixes but sloppy stuff that shouldn't have left the building).

I've heard Baer's are nice but really tight. When it comes to 1911's, I don't want mine that tight, I'll trade 5% of accuracy for the reliability of a somewhat looser pistol.

My full-custom guns built on Colt's are nice but pricey...and then some.

I've heard nothing but good things about Wilson but alas, my gun budget is pretty much shot for the year. Granted, I've said that once a month for the past six months...and the population in the safe keeps growing.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

All of the top makers build pretty good guns in the semi-custom and custom world. They have subtle differences, and they all have problems, none of them turns out 100% guns all the time.

Baer's are super tight, and generally super accurate, but take more break in. Nighthawk is still pretty new but they tend to be mid tight and mid accurate. Wilson seems to go a little looser on their standard builds, they run a higher grip than most, and I don't think they use match barrels on their non-supergrade stuff. That said lets face it even the worst wilson test target at 15 yards is under 3/4" I doubt there's anyone that can shoot groups that well consistently and I know a couple grand masters.

There is a lot of good info about going full custom a lot of times you don't have to spend that much more to a get a full custom gun with many wilsons/baer/brown/etc. guns pushing $3000 with options these days. The waits are longer, in some cases much much longer, you may or may not get more options, but like anything it can be worth it.

That said people need to get over the misconception that tighter is better in slide fit on 1911's, along with how hard it is to get the bushing out of the slide. It does little or nothing for accuracy and only serves to create reliability problems when they get dirty. With quality parts and a good build the #1 reason a 1911 stops running is crap got in the slide rails, and there isn't enough give to tolerate it. You can have a rattling loose slide and if it has a good barrel, good bushing, and the barrel/slide lock lugs are fit right and the bushing is fit right, it will still shoot better than 99.99% can shoot and it will run longer and in worse conditions than the super tight guns will.

It's the same reason we don't use the crazy tight tolerance bolts/actions that benchrest shooters do on our tactical rifles, because the first time they got a little dirt in them they'd quit running. There has to be a compromise between how tight the gun is and how reliable it's going to be. Sadly most 1911 buyers have forgotten this and it's forced companies to try and build tighter and tighter guns that are in most cases less reliable.

In the end you buy what you like, take it to the range put 500 rounds of FMJ through it, clean and lube it, put 250 rounds of your carry ammo through it, if it does that without a problem, clean and lube it and strap it on your hip. If it has any failures, try new mags and repeat, if it still doesn't work, send it back or to a smith have it worked on and repeat the process. Spending more up front usually means spending less later, it's not always the case though.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I am pretty certain Wilson uses "match grade" barrels on other than "Super grades"!
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

They might have changed it, my older CQB's are not marked as match barrels, where my supergrade is. In fact I believe they have since their current cqb description lists hand fitted match barrels.

It was not that many years ago that Wilson was using some MIM parts in their guns. Even today the supergrades and cqb elites are the only ones that come with the full bullet proof parts package. Otherwise it's avaialble as an upgrade to builds that includes the saftey, mag release, and grip safety. Those parts are currently cast on CQB's and such that don't request the full tool steel/bar stock "bulletproof" parts. In wilson's defense the bulletproof safety and grip safety was just added this year to their lineup.

Though frankly the whole MIM thing is totally blown out of proportion, if done properly MIM parts do every bit as good as the others. The big issue is you don't know if the MIM/Cast parts have voids in them till they break
smile.gif
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wilson is proof that you don't need a gun that tight to be accurate! Try field stripping a Les Baer!</div></div>

+1
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wilson is proof that you don't need a gun that tight to be accurate! Try field stripping a Les Baer! </div></div>

Agreed. Field stripping a Baer is a bear for sure. I ended up trading one of my TRSs for a Nighthawk because it was the tightest Baer I had ever seen making it the tightest 1911 I had owned or worked with bar none. It was so bad it was guaranteed to make me cuss like a sailor when working with it.

Having said that, I LOVE my other Baer and would never let it go.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. Otherwise it's avaialble as an upgrade to builds that includes the saftey, mag release, and grip safety. Those parts are currently cast on CQB's and such that don't request the full tool steel/bar stock "bulletproof" parts. In wilson's defense the bulletproof safety and grip safety was just added this year to their lineup.</div></div>

Todd,
How many 1911 manufacturers use bar stock grip safeties and thumb safeties? I ask because I am not aware of anyone else other than Wilson...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt in Virginia</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. Otherwise it's avaialble as an upgrade to builds that includes the saftey, mag release, and grip safety. Those parts are currently cast on CQB's and such that don't request the full tool steel/bar stock "bulletproof" parts. In wilson's defense the bulletproof safety and grip safety was just added this year to their lineup.</div></div>

Todd,
How many 1911 manufacturers use bar stock grip safeties and thumb safeties? I ask because I am not aware of anyone else other than Wilson...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270 </div></div>

i suggest ed brown...that said, LL's suggestion was spot on, and applies to many custom makers. check out www.louderthenwords.us a premier 1911 builders site.
i'd also suggest checking out www.pistoldynamics.com this is paul liebenbergs(s) company, and he builds very fine guns. he also does a semi-custom build on springfield armory base guns, nice guns indeed-cam
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wilson is proof that you don't need a gun that tight to be accurate! Try field stripping a Les Baer!</div></div>

You can request that the bushing and barrel be fitted so it can be disassembled without a tool.

Also, if you retract the slide 1" before trying to turn the bushing, it will be much easier.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Boltripper has been sitting on his hands for the last three days.......

a short story....i sometimes go and hang out and pester one of my gunplumbers....this one guy do excellent 1911 work,....he got all the trinkets and tools and guides and tooling to make 1911's run like they should....and he is salty enough to know what works and what is junk.


Subsequently he gets his fair share of problem childs' and orphans to make run.......and i have been there looking over his shoulder and seeing what some hi-end 1911s look like with some mileage on them.

all i will say is .....get to know your gunplumber and if he is worth any spit.......you will know who got the better rep on 1911's

.......some talked about in above threads that I personally have seen ....eat themselves from the inside out.....just my .02
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Lowlight,

Those Volkmann 1911's are really sweet.I like the two tone.I read your review on the commander size and wouldn't mind having one for sure.I think I'll consider one.I want that extra attention to detail.

ToddM,

I see your point about a 1911 not needing to be so tight.I had a bad experience years ago with a gunsmith in Phoenix that built me a custom 38 super with a so called national match frame and slide.It turned out as loose as a stock Colt.I paid allot of money for it and want to make sure this one is reasonably tight and built correctly.

hatidua,

I guess the new Ed Brown's are a shadow of what they once were when Ed built them one at a time.Hey,at least there's no 3 year wait anymore,LOL.

427Cobra,

I got a STI Edge 40 already but it'd kind of big for carrying around when I feel like it.Great competition guns though.

Boltripper,PM with the list of ones that eat themselves from the inside out if you don't mind.

Thanks guys for all the input.

Steve
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I have a Wilson and two Ed Browns. My Dan Wesson functions better and is tighter than either. Go figure.

So for the money I would take a DW.

That said, I would like, and will probably someday purchase a Les Baer. As of yet, no first hand experience.

I understand the Springfield professional really is all that and a bag a Fritos, and have two on order. If you can wait a year or so I would consider one.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Request something from Leas Baer! Yeah let me know how that goes for you!
laugh.gif
</div></div>

I've already done it ... twice!

Also, I had him change up a Thunder Ranch pistol a bit too. Bead blast hard chrome, no front cocking serrations, and a few other tidbits.

The only thing they weren't willing to do was use a YoBo rear sight.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I have 3 wilsons and had 2 Les Baers.

Baers are too tight. It takes at least and some time much more that 250 rounds to make them reliable. You have to wear them in they are so tight. And if you ever need to speak with Les you are SOL. He has a personality like a bent shit can and in his opinion there is never anything wrong with one of his pistols.

Wilsons will run like a sewing machine right out of the box with anything you feed them. Customer service is top shelf which I have only used when I ordered a pistol. Wilsons will shoot and hold up but I have not put more than 2k rounds through 2 of mine and the other is still new in the box.

I also have a couple 70 series that have had minimun work done to them and they will function as well as a Wilson. You don't need to spend the cash for custom to get a well functioning 1911 but they sure do look good.

My favorite is a Para P14 and P16. They are 1/8 wider in the grip but you get a twice the fire power.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

They are all likely to be reliable. Reliability is one of the two critical issues, right? Accuracy is the other. To me, its important that the maker or customizer provide an accuracy test target to prove the weapons accuracy, like Clark.

Clark Custom
Volkmann
Other customizers who provide accuracy proof.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are all likely to be reliable.</div></div>

That hasn't been <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> experience.

Unless you're an NRA bullseye competitor, rather than a defensive shooter, chasing accuracy is mostly pointless. I've never seen a pistol which wasn't accurate enough for defensive purposes. However, I've seen a lot of pistols whose manufacturers' touted accuracy, but whose products were not reliable.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are all likely to be reliable.</div></div>

That hasn't been <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> experience.

Unless you're a NRA bullseye competition, rather than a defensive shooter, chasing accuracy is mostly pointless. I've never seen a pistol which wasn't accurate enough for defensive purposes. However, I've seen a lot of pistols whose manufacturers' touted accuracy, but whose products were not reliable.
</div></div>

I agree. A gun too tight to function if counterproductive.

I gladly give up some accuracy to gain reliability.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Thats not to say that a 1911 with enough clearance to function 100% can not be "bullseye" accurate.

Bullseye shooters don't like malfuntions either.
smile.gif
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Try Fusion Arms. All Tier 1 parts and he knows his way around a 1911. There are "standard" models, but anything that you want done to it to make it special he'll do within reason.

Fusion Firearms
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Here is a one of my wlison supplied test targets that came with a 5" model and a Wilson is not a extreamly tight 1911 but a very reliable 1911. That is 5 shots.

 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Grayone, that's what I like, personally; proof, and it means the builder stands behind the gun in my way of thinking. RADCustom is a 1911 mechannic so listen to him. Personally, I rather deal with a mom & pop shop, and I believe factories and retailers are doing us no favors, so when Jim Clark, Jr. hands to me my custom 1911 that he personally smithed, with a target that proves it is what it purports to be (a relliable, accurate handgun), I just feel better satisfied having been served and having supported a few gunsmiths in a local shop, rather than shareholders at some goofy company owned by old fat stiff shirts sitting on beach on the Rivierra.
I will be working with the RAD and Jim types for my guns. "They good."
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

A test target is nice, but not a huge deal to me in a 1911, not nearly so much as in a rifle (and even then a lot of the rifle companies "cheat" one way or another to make their test targets look better) I'd be willing to bet you could take the cheapest 1911's around take them off the shelf put good ammo and a ransom rest to work and they would shoot great targets at 15-25 yards. Still better than 99% can shoot. It is a nice extra touch, but they are all easily combat accurate unless they have something major wrong with them.

It's tough these days to find a smith that will even consider building a gun that has a little more give in the slide/frame fit. In fact I've contacted a couple about builds requesting that and was told flat out they would not do it, because it might hurt their reputation. All you have to do is go to 1911forums.com and see why you can't go a week in there without someone posting a thread of pictures of nothing but rear slide/frame shots trying to prove who has the tightest slide/frame fit. Even custom makers now know if other people saw anything but the super tight fit, they would instantly associate it with poor quality.

To me of the major "semi-custom" guns wilson is the best at having a gun that is still very accurate, but has a little more give in places to run more reliable out of the box. Of the courses I've been to they seem to have the least problems of the major 1911 builders. That's not to say other 1911's have not run well also, but they seem more hit and miss. That said while I love my 1911's you can take 50 1911's of anyone's build at any price and put them up against 50 glocks and I'll bet good money the glocks run longer, in worse conditions day in and day out. We chase 1911's that run reliably because we love the feel/history/shooting of the gun itself, but the bottom line is if you want one that runs in the crap all day every day, the glock is hard to beat and you can spend thousands more trying to make a 1911 run that well.

Most owners never really stress test their 1911's anyway. They take them to the range, clean and lubed fire a couple hundred rounds at most, clean/lube it and go home happy that their 1911 is 100% reliable. But if you take a 1911 and shoot a 750-1000 round 3 day course in the desert with little to no cleaning and it runs, that's a solid gun. Obviously they can all build guns to that level, but in my limited experience wilson seems to do better at it along with full custom builds.

They still have their problems, all of them do. Also as others have said I've heard horror stories about people having problems with Brown and Baer guns and getting no help on the issue. If there is one thing wilson does do well it's that they admit they do make a mistake here and there, and they have amazing customer service to fix it. They will do whatever is needed to get it running right if you happen to get one that doesn't. That is probalby the single biggest reason I keep going back to them. It's like swarovski, maybe not the best hands down optically anymore, but their customer service is flat out amazing, and that's worth a lot too.



 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Personally, I rather deal with a mom & pop shop, and I believe factories and retailers are doing us no favors, so when Jim Clark, Jr. hands to me my custom 1911 that he personally smithed, with a target that proves it is what it purports to be (a relliable, accurate handgun), I just feel better satisfied having been served and having supported a few gunsmiths in a local shop, rather than shareholders at some goofy company owned by old fat stiff shirts sitting on beach on the Rivierra.
"</div></div>

This is the ticket! Find a "mom and pop" shop, make sure they know their stuff, and use them.
They will tune the mags to your pistol, best investment in reliability you can make.
I've used 3 different pistolsmiths in the last 30 years, (John Nowlen, Freddy Craig, Copland Custom) all within 120 miles of my home. All of the pistols run and are accurate.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Give Steve Morrison, Dave Lauck, Chuck Rogers, Paul Liebenberg a call. or try 10-8 or Ed Brown....etc

They will meet your needs. LTW.com as listed above has some good comments/displays as well.

Steve and Dave are excellent to work with and know how to build a "tool".
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I have owned STI, Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Les Bear and several others. Several years ago I got my first Wilson. Decided to go with just one make. Had another Wilson CQB built to duplicate the first one and sold the rest. Now I have the two Wilson CQB's, and am very pleased with them. About 3K rounds through each one. I have not had a problem of any kind with either one. They will both shoot better than I can see. I use Wilson mags also. Now I average about 300 rounds a year through each weapon. It is all carry ammunition. No ball and no reloads.All either Hydra-shock, Remington Golden Sabre or Cor-Bon.

They shoot well, fit my hands well and funcrion flawlessly.

I would love to have one of his new concealed carry models he just came out with but just cannot justify springing for that much money right now when I already have two great weapons.

BTW, I really had no problems with any of the other weapons I had and sold. A few functioning issues but they were all magazune related. I do not use any mags other than Wilson or McCormick.

WALDT. Borrow what u can and try them out and once you find a good one then stay with it. I carry mine every day and trust them totally.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I have a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. The first time I took it apart, I broke two plastic bushing wrenches. Was not able to put it back together, it was that tight. Had to take it to my gunsmith so he could put it back together. Would I trade it for anything else, not on your life. It is the most accurate and reliable 1911 I have ever owned.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I would vote +1 for Dan Wesson, I love mine and my dad's. But if money is not a consideration I might go for the Les Bear. Felt a LB longslide at a SOF gunshow in Vegas several years ago and it had the smoothest slide of any pistol I've ever handled.

Regards,
Nate
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

Oh, and while I doubt you'll ever find one for sale long enough to grab it, I would love to get my hands on a Valtro.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Boltripper has been sitting on his hands for the last three days.......

a short story....i sometimes go and hang out and pester one of my gunplumbers....this one guy do excellent 1911 work,....he got all the trinkets and tools and guides and tooling to make 1911's run like they should....and he is salty enough to know what works and what is junk.


Subsequently he gets his fair share of problem childs' and orphans to make run.......and i have been there looking over his shoulder and seeing what some hi-end 1911s look like with some mileage on them.

all i will say is .....get to know your gunplumber and if he is worth any spit.......you will know who got the better rep on 1911's

.......some talked about in above threads that I personally have seen ....eat themselves from the inside out.....just my .02 </div></div>

Any 1911 can "eat themselves from the inside out" if there not maintained or set up properly for the intended loads. Also pm me the list also I would appreciate it.
 
Re: Les Bear,Wilson,Ed brown,etc

I've owned and put lots of rounds through Les Baer, Kimber, Colt, Wilson, STI and have finally settled on an Ed Brown Kobra Carry as my favorite 1911.
Just my $.02 but I spent a lot of money on .45s before getting to this one so thought I'd share.