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Rifle Scopes lets see your box drill on your scope

GaryinCC

GaryinCC

Hired gun
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 18, 2007
344
8
corpus christi, texas
i am reading alot about Falcon and millet scopes and i have searched to see if some one has posted a report on a box drill with one of these scopes. in my opinion the first thing that a tactical scope has to do is track. everything else is second.

so i'm asking for the owers of new to the market scopes to do this in the intrest of science.

for those who don't know. a box drill is this

start at your Zero. fire one round. move your scope up a set amount( 6moa is easy).fire one round. then move your scope right the same amount as you moved up. fire one round. then move your scope down the same amount again. fire one round. then move your scope left the same amount bringing you back to Zero. fire one round.
at this point you should be back where the first round hit. if not then we know the scope doesn't track.

post them and the targets and lets get some good data on these new scopes.


thanks
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

Well I did not take photos but I went up one mil at a time up to 6mils. At 0, 3 and 6 mils of elevation I put in 3 mils of left and then right windage, firing one shot on each. did not end up with a real box drill but enough to be very satisified that the mil adjustments matched the mils on the reticle. This was done at 8x and 14x (I use about 8 on movers and short range stuff).

Also this weekend I got out for some field shooting at rocks etc and out to 750 yards the adjustments matched up with what my data card predicted.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

6MOA doesn't show you anything and a lot of problems don't show up until you compound the distance enough to move the error beyond your shooting.

I recommend you never box test any scope using less than 24" (MOA) this way the errors will be compounded enough to become visible.

More is better in this situation, you should out of habit check your scope using all of the travel you intend to shoot it.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More is better in this situation, you should out of habit check your scope using all of the travel you intend to shoot it.</div></div>

Which means for a .308 which you'll shoot to 1000 yards, you'll need about 40 MOA or about 12 mils.

Doing that test will ensure that your scope and mount combination gives you enough elevation to shoot that distance. Elevation is more important than windage to me, as I don't often dial windage.

You can also test the scope without shooting using the techniques in the link below, which will also check the accuracy of your elevation adjustments.

Optically Checking Rifle Scopes


 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More is better in this situation, you should out of habit check your scope using all of the travel you intend to shoot it. </div></div>
+100, you need to know that it is going to come back to that 100y or 300y, or whatever yard zero once you've dialed at say 800,900,1000..... and so on. Thats alot more than a 6in drop out there, obviously. Unless you have some sort of future laser gun or something.....
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

I totaly agree with you. i but for most of the people to get us 600 or beyond results is hard to do unless they are lucky enough to have a range close that can handle it.

i would just like to see something basic. just to see if these low price scopes will track at all. most of the cheap stuff on the market won't track strait up, down, left or right.

i would love for some one to take the time to take one out to see how it would handle a full range of movement test. but i know that would be alot to hope for.

i know the ranges have problems with people bringing scopes out that won't track to matches and they can't keep their bullits in the berm. i'm just hopping that this will bring some of this to light.

thanks
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cardog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i know the ranges have problems with people bringing scopes out that won't track to matches and they can't keep their bullits in the berm. </div></div>

I'll bet those ranges are having more problems with shooters not knowing what they are doing than scopes not tracking if they're launching boolits over the backstops.........

 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

I'll be happy to do this. If I can find a big enough box, I'm interested in trying it out even 24 minutes. Right now the weather is pretty bad here, and I'll be a little bit busy, but I'll give it a shot. I have one of the first production runs (pre Bushnell) Millett LRS scopes. I'll see what I can do when things get a bit better and I have a bit of time.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

If you dive the dumpster behind your local bicycle shop, you can usually find a piece of cardboard large enough to do an effective test. Like Lindy, I prefer about 40" up and back at 100 yards.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

You can do it at 100 yards, just bring a long piece of cardboard (or put 3 pieces of poster board together), suggesting a "shortcut" helps no one, especially the user giving them a false sense of satisfaction.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can do it at 100 yards, just bring a long piece of cardboard (or put 3 pieces of poster board together), suggesting a "shortcut" helps no one, especially the user giving them a false sense of satisfaction. </div></div>

LOL, I live in BFE, not too many bike shops around here (to RMfield). I still think I have some boxes that some A/C units came in that will work. In this wind, poster board definitely won't hold together. Thanks for the tip lowlight, I'll see what I can do.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

LL....or anyone else.

What's the ideal size of cardboard or paper to use at 100 yards for example?

What would the spacing of the dots need to be? For example....sorry about the terrible graphic!

2cxyt4z.jpg
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

i'm looking at the Falcons RWS has for sale. i might just buy one and take it out and test it. if it don't work though i will be stuck....after posting the results i think i would have a hard time selling..lol

 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

Kids, its called a box test because you run the adjustments in a box pattern, you don't need to shoot an actual box. Sheesh...

10mil at 100 yards is what? (no answer-go back to the FAQ and study).
You need a target big enough to put those adjustments on, hence LL and Lindy suggest a tall skinny target as they are suggesting that checking the correctness of the scope's elevation travel. Put one aiming point on the bottom, shoot a group there then dial 10mils on your scope (or whatever you want-bigger is better-as long as you know what its supposed to equal to) then shoot a group while aiming at the aiming point on the bottom.

Now would be a good time to walk out and find the center of each group and mark it if not measure it prior to the next step.

Dial back to your hundred yard zero and put another group on the same point. Center of second group should be at the center of your first group to confirm your repeatability.

The distance from the bottom to the top group will confirm how much your adjustments actually are.

BIG TIP: Measure the 100 yards if that's what you are going to shoot at. A 300ft tape works best. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Do not trust that the 100yd line at your range is exactly 100yds from your muzzle to the target, as it usually isn't.</span>
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

I also do the simple function test every so often after confirming as above:

shoot the rifle at an aiming point then twist the knobs like a monkey on crack and go back to the original turret setting and reshoot same point.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

jason, you're better off with a tall "T" several in fact, going up from a central aiming point which is down low, then T'ing out as you go up.

Think of it as 4 12" "T's" on top of each other.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL....or anyone else.

What's the ideal size of cardboard or paper to use at 100 yards for example?

What would the spacing of the dots need to be? For example....sorry about the terrible graphic!

</div></div>

Only one aiming point is necessary as the measurements are made from the center of the groups fired-all the aiming is at one point, just the reticle moving around.........if I get your question at all.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

thats right.

you aim at the same point every shot. just change your setting for elevation and windage. when your done you should have shot a "box"
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

Thanks for the T idea LL. True on the one aiming point sbr883 but was thinking if you had the dots in the right spot you would know where you should be hitting while aiming at the single spot.

If I've got time next week I'll try to make an easy to use sample for everyone to use.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6MOA doesn't show you anything and a lot of problems don't show up until you compound the distance enough to move the error beyond your shooting.

I recommend you never box test any scope using less than 24" (MOA) this way the errors will be compounded enough to become visible.

More is better in this situation, you should out of habit check your scope using all of the travel you intend to shoot it. </div></div>

I agree, thats why I did 6mils, not 6moa. Thats enough to take it to 800yards and the most I usually go with the rifle is 600. The 3mils I checked on windage will cover me up to 15mph full value at 800yards so I think Im good to go.

Forgot to add this was with a falcon 4x14 on a .308.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

Ok Guys, be gentle for my inaugural post. I realize it is not a thorough box test by any stretch, but with the time, round count, and range rules this is what I was able to accomplish. And because it's for science...

LTR .308
Badger 20 base
Seekins Low Rings
Falcon 4x14 mil/mil
100 yds
150g REM MC

CBS + 2 at center.
Up 1.2, left 1.2, bang.
Right 2.4, bang.
Down 2.4, bang.
Left 2.4 bang.
Up 1.2, right 1.2, bang, bang, bang.

Round ten is all "me" rushing to make cease fire. Will have the opportunity to get out to 1000 next month. Should be able to post more. I would like to try a real test with 175fgm which it seems to really like but for the moment I need to save what I was able to get my hands on for future events, and want to keep the rounds moving down range.

BoxTest.jpg





 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

Hello guys

Well now we are on a good subject, testing scopes in a practical mannor. We check all Millett scopes on the computer testing equipment to the full range of the adjustments for windage and elv. we can see the cross hairs move on the machine and if it returns to zero.

We also test sample scopes at the range. We test at 100 yards, to save paper and to give us data that can be easily kept we use standard targets. If you move the point of impact 10 to 12 in. you will get a good representative of the accuracy of the scope adjustments. To be a fair test you must figure the error factor of the firearm into the equation. if you are shooting a 1" accurate rifle then that is the error you will have to deal with. Most times we do the test several times to get a good base of data. Main thing is that it returns to the zero point after boxing. A good scope moves when you move the knobs you should not have to wait for a shot or 2 or hit the turret to get it to move. With the Millett spring system we use on the tactical scope you should not have a problem with movement.

I am not in the office as I am traveling but next week I will take some pics of the test targets for some of our Millett scopes.

Good shooting

Steve

Millett Bushnell

 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

thank you
now for the questions

zaz, the test looks to me to be with in the realm of your guns preformace. just judging by to spred on your follow up shots. but it seams like you are still a litte low. your first three shots strung left to right, so did shots 8,9,10 but low?

hummm
any one else want to chime in?


 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

cardog-

Cold Bore and follow ups seem pretty normal for the gun, 4-6 look accurate, 7 not so much (likely me) and 10 definitely was me. The 1/4 mil low on the repeat zero makes me want to test more. I am anxious to get the test done with a larger target and some match ammo. The 168 and 175 fgmm seem to do well and may prove a bit more telling if I can get a 4 ft target to work with. Just thought I would share what limited testing I have been able to come up with.

Look forward to any comments.

 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

One shot at each stop won't tell you anything unless the machine is mounted in a return to battery mount, that's why I suggested groups and measure the center of the group.

You're on to something Switch!
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

switch your right 1/2 moa or better is the only thing that i will accept out of my rifles but the truth is lot of manufatures are puting out stuff that just won't do.
also alot of people are just getting in the sport and don't have the money to pump in to a full custom build. this is realy true with people that are using these types of scopes. why would you spend $3,000 on a rifle by GAP then cheap out on the scope.

but thats my point. we want to see what these lower price scopes are going to offer.

this thread is not about peoples rifles( now good,or how bad)

and it might be that we have to teach people along the way. but this will make the Data that much more useable.

so keep posting input.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

We use a slightly different approach when it comes to box testing. I have a cinderblock with a short 7” one by one piece of wood epoxied to it and a full length Burris mount attached to the 1X1 wood. We use a set of Burris Signature rings (the ones with the plastic inserts) to test the scopes as they won’t mar the finish. All new scopes get mounted to the cinderblock. I place a white sheet of paper with a 10” square grid marked at every inch.

From a solid concrete bench we test the tracking of the turrets in reference to the 10” square grid. This way if the scope won’t track as advertise say .25moa or the tracking is just really screwed up I know before sending any rounds down range and I can return it for repair.

This also helps take out any human error that can happen when shooting.

Hope it helps
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

With the right ammunition and the shooter in his right mind, this stock rifle has already proven itself as 1/2 moa stick. It wasn't really the intention of the initial reply. At the time of the "box test" the total round count through the rifle was about 80. I have nothing but practice ahead of me and hopefully when I add a couple of zeros to that round count I will be shooting to the rifles capabilities. Maybe then I will call GAP. Then again, if the gun continues to perform this way the Falcon can someday move over and make room for the USO. For now however that coin goes to reloading supplies.
wink.gif


5-Shot.jpg

 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

some friends and i were talking about the subject last night.

another thing i would like to see is for someone to fire a round to check your zero, then run your scope up till it stops, then down till it stops, then back to zero. and fire a round.

repeat with the windage.

post it if you get a chance.
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

Hello

Cardog

If you run the scope adjustments to the end of the track you will often be beyond the spring tension of the scope. There is limit to the range of the adjustments so you need to stop before the end of travel. With the LRS there is full range of 140moa thats a lot but there may be 150 or so clicks but they will not be accurate at the last 10 clicks or so in the up movement. We use a coil spring to give the best tension over the full travel.

One other factor is the accuracy of the installation of the scope in relationship to the center line of the barrel. If the scope is off the centerline of the barrel when you adjust the elevation the point of impact moves to the cosign of the error. If you only move the scope 12" or so the error is small but as you move out it increases and as the yardage increase so does the error. This can cause the box to be slanted to one angle. With the Millett Angle Loc rings you can correct for this error or you can make it worse if you do not mount the scope properly.

Also this is a test of the scope, if the gun only shoots 1" thats ok as we use the base accuracy to figure the point of the box. Of course a 1/2" gun is better, but it really matters little in the big picture.

The other big factor is the measurement of the clicks, our goal is to have accuracte clicks. if you move 20 clicks and they are 1/4" clicks it should move 5" not more or less within the accuracy of the gun. This is where doing the test several times gives the best data.




Good shooting


Steve

Millett Bushnell
 
Re: lets see your box drill on your scope

repeatability is the true test. if you can't repeat test results then the test is flawed.

i put a message to RWS for one of the Falcon scopes. when i get it in hand the i'll start posting data.

but for now lets keep what we got going.

steve thanks for the input...lets see some tests. i would love to see the info for your scopes as well.
 
This is great, thanks guys.
I have a millett on order and I'm pretty excited. I bet these scopes will track and perform well, and I bet they are beyond the capabilities of your average shooter.
I'll try and post some pics when mine arrives and I get to the range.
anyone else have more range data to post?
 
I combine the box check with bore sighting.

After I mount a new scope on a gun, I clamp the barrel in my felt padded shop vise, aim through the bore at a bright green tennis ball nailed to a tree, and lock the vise. Then, I dial the reticle onto the nail head in the center of the ball and set the turrets to (preliminary) zero.

The last check is to crank the turrets and see whether the reticle returned back to the nail head when the turrets are at 0/0.
 
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