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Let's talk adjustable gas blocks...

BurnOut

DDOJSIOC
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 24, 2013
1,826
797
Dallas
...so, I am going to preface this by saying that I am first and foremost, an utter amateur in the world of semi-automatic firearms. As such, I may communicate thoughts or concepts that are ridiculously simple or even completely wrong; and for those of you who have more knowledge/experience than I do, I would appreciate constructive feedback rather than simply being called a dumbass. That being said, I recognize that this is the Internet, so I'll go ahead and do the work for you: I'm a dumbass, but I'm trying to learn... and I can use all the help I can get.

ANYHOW, on to the subject matter... adjustable gas blocks (specifically, on AR-pattern rifles). Most AGB designs of which I am aware restrict not gas pressure, but gas volume; the restriction of pressure is a side effect of the volume restriction. That is to say that the DI system on an AR-pattern rifle has a given volume that is, while the rifle is at rest, at atmospheric pressure. As the rifle is fired and the projectile passes the gas port, the high pressure gas that is chasing the projectile out of the barrel looks for any way it can find to move towards a low(er) pressure area... so, the gas system. As the gas system is (rapidly) filled with combustion gas(ses) from the deflagration of the powder in the cartridge, the volume of the gas filling the operating system quickly exceeds the (natural/atmospheric) volume of the operating system; as a result, pressure within the operating system builds. By restricting the volume of the combustion gas(ses) that enter the operating system of the rifle, we also restrict the pressure of that gas simply as a side effect of stuffing less gas into a given space. Pretty basic, right?

With that out of the way, I don't see why a self-regulating adjustable gas block/system could not be constructed (I'll freely admit that this is where my lack of knowledge will really be apparent). I am envisioning a design with two, sequential gas ports; the first being used to push against a spring loaded valve that restricts the passage between the second gas port (which would actually provide the gas to operate the rifle) and the rest of the operating system. Conceptually, this valve would, at atmospheric pressure, leave that passage wide open, thus providing no restriction to gas flow between the second gas port and the rest of the operating system. As barrel pressure increased, the valve would push harder against its pre-load spring and close off more of the passage between the second gas port and the rest of the rifle operating system. The self regulation function is evident at this point... the less gas pressure there is in the barrel, the less gas pressure there is to "choke" the passage between the second gas port and the rest of the gas system, and the greater the gas pressure in the barrel, the greater the effect on the spring loaded valve and therefore the greater the "choke" on the gas passage.

I'm certain that I'm not innovative in this thinking... there are enough people who have a hell of a lot more knowledge/skills than I do, and such a system does not exist today (that I am aware of). I can therefore only conclude that there has to be something that I am overlooking; do any of you know what that might be?
 
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So...what type of engineer are you? =)


yes, what you suggest makes sense in theory. But in practice would add significantly to the complexity (and cost) of a relatively simple system that has been proven to work. So...why?
 
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Just a thought... Isn't this how the AR-15 works? The spring (action spring) holds the valve (The bolt with gas rings) closed until the valve clears the appropriate section of the carrier allowing gas to escape through the body of the carrier and through the gas ports on the side of the carrier thereby relieving excess pressure/gas volume. There are adjustable carriers now as well (for suppressor use, etc) that adjust the amount of gasses needed to move the piston (bolt)

Now, I understand, you are speaking about an application to reduce the pressures before the gasses get to the carrier, but I just thought it was an interesting thing to think about.

My only other thought is... don't bypass relief systems (vent to atmosphere) in the realm of firearms already exist (where the piston gets all the needed pressure and starts to move, then it passes an open port to release excess pressure) and has no extra needed springs to hold the check valve closed? This is similar to the AR-15, but located in the gas block portion.

As for your idea, I would be concerned with the very hot gasses and sizes of springs needed, it would be difficult to get the needed reliability as the spring heat cycles and ages.
 
The needed amount of gas is 100% determined by the resistance of the BCG to fully cycle. There are variables that affect this and most have nothing to do with the gas system itself. So to be self regulating it would have to have feedback from the carrier to know when and where to regulate. Considering that the carrier is disconnected from the gas system as soon as it is blown back I can’t see how the gas block itself could regulate how much gas to allow through to send the carrier hard enough but not too hard. You have different levels of friction, different carrier masses, different buffer masses, different spring tensions, etc... that have to be factored in so I can’t see how a gas block would be able to regulate itself to satisfy all of those variables that are not at all connected to the block during cycling.
 
I think his attempt is a self regulating agb?

I E tune once and it would regulate difference of ammo / suppressed ?
 
Interesting concept.

What would this solve?

Not every rifle is the same so this would still have to be adjustable. I guess at that point it would maintain a pressure for that particular rifle. Say with or without a can or with different ammo.
 
I'm not sure how you could regulate to know how much gas the action needs to be completely self regulating. It's also adding more mechanical parts. More parts = more chances of failure and you're talking about small parts to fit inside a gas block without making it huge. If you could design it in such a way that should something fail the system is just left wide open so the gun will still function instead of being cut off I suppose that would be ok.

I just don't see the point though. The simple adjustable gas block work great so it's complicating a very simple non mechanical part that works as needed with something complex and mechanical that doesn't really solve anything that I can see.
 
So, several have asked "why" behind the design I have proposed, and that's absolutely a fair question. The answer is that such a system could, in theory, allow for a variety of ammo to be used, and/or a suppressor, without requiring the user to adjust the gas block to alleviate under/over gassing the operating system. Obviously, there would still be an operating window with minimum and maximum pressures under which the mechanism would function, but the idea would be to make that window as broad as possible.

As for the concept of the operating mechanism its self (i.e., the BCG) being self regulating, that's interesting... I had never thought of it that way, but you're right... the advantage to doing the self regulation at the gas block would be less gas at the BCG/shooters face.

To those pointing out that a true, off-the-shelf setup like this isn't feasible due to the HUGE variations in operational parts (BCG, buffer, spring), that's a very good point, and perhaps it could be as @Snuby642 and @2aBaCa mentioned... have an element of user adjustability to allow for it to be set for a particular combo, with the advantage (over current solutions) being that it would (as mentioned above) have a broader window of functionality to allow for different loads, etc...
 
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Like a shuttle valve type setup.
The more pressure the more restriction down to a user set preference.

As pressure rises moves shuttle to progressively smaller orfices.
 
With gas blocks like Superlative Arms and SLR rifleworks you can already dial in enough in almost all configurations that this type of block just wouldn't provide an advantage. You can find a setting that will work suppressed and unsuppressed on almost all rifle+can setups. Not ideal for both, but more than good enough if that is what you want to do. There may be a few edge cases where this would be useful but as others have said the added complexity is hard to swallow for anything beyond range use.
 
so, basically you described a piston operated semi-auto rifle. nothing to dial in, no undergassed or overgassed - except bolt is moved by the piston rod rearwards vs a burst of gas. I personally, prefer piston design anyhow - with that said, gas has its benefits too (weight being the most critical and beneficial one).
 
the biggest issue I could see would be the spring loaded valve getting dirty. With a DI AR, the gasses aren't just air, it's got a lot of gunk in there as shown by the amount of cleaning needed in DI guns. How long would it take to make the valves inoperable? How easy would they be to clean? That's pretty hot gasses in that vicinity so stuff would get baked on in short order. or maybe I don't understand the principle? :)