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like you don't know, but, parts are at critical point for AR builders

longshot2000

Sniper's Hide Dealer: CHARLIE'S
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 19, 2017
    1,602
    867
    Northern VA
    charliescustomclones.com
    From the inside, we are a dealer and a builder of AR platform guns and also sell some parts.

    We are not the Ace Hardware Store of parts. Others have that covered. But, if you don't realize it already, let me explain: most really good parts come from really good rifle makers. Think of a name you associate with quality. That brand is looking hard for parts: making some parts, buying other parts, all with the primary goal of building and selling rifles. So, every part that is made; every part that is purchased, is destined for a rifle build. Most rifle builders, in normal times buy or make more parts than they really need, so those "excess parts" get sold.

    The situation today, in early 2021, is that there is a critical shortage of certain parts, and a growing problem with other parts. Today, barrels, BCGs and receivers are at crisis levels, and pretty much in that order. Many rifle builders and upper receiver builders cannot get enough quality barrels and BCGs to make uppers. Others who do not make their own upper and lower receivers are finding it starting to get hard to get those.

    Then, there are the parts that make up the larger parts. I know one rifle maker who has stopped taking orders because they cannot get BCGs. The BCG maker has stopped taking orders because they cannot get a gas key screw. So, the entire rifle cannot be built, for lack of a $1.00 part.

    And, just so you know, this situation has been getting worse every week. We saw production capacity at its peak around August, then demand started to surge toward November, and orders fell further and further behind. From the election to the ignauration, demand surged, and the supply chain started to hit critical bumps. And, the bumps have gotten more frequent.

    The problems we have, as a builder right now is barrels, scope rings, muzzle devices and some suppressors. The list ebbs and flows weekly. We are doing better than most, as we have large inventories of certain strategic parts we purchased over the last few years, but we have parts that are keeping us from building and delivering. And, our suppliers have told us, "no more orders until we catch up." That is not true across the board, but every week, another supplier is delaying or stopping orders.

    So, we are also a dealer and reseller of parts. So, guess what happens? We need 100 muzzle devices, and have back orders for 30 rifles and uppers that need breaks or suppressors or scope rings or BCGs. Then, we get a big box in from a supplier. We first want to make sure we can deliver rifles and then upper receiver groups. In the past, we might sell 1/2 of of the parts we get. But, we clearly want to sell rifles in April, so we sit on the parts.

    So, while you wonder where your parts are, I thought I would give you a view from within. Last year, we spent most of our time with customers and taking orders and designing rifles. Now, 2/3 of our time is spent with suppliers and other builders and dealers, begging for parts. Will it return to normal? I am sure it will. But, for us, the brands we work with were at capacity 6 months ago, so it will be a very long time before we get back to normal. For brands that are a little more popular, they will likely see the light and have more supply by summer.

    Our issues are largely with AR parts, quality pistols, high-end gas guns, suppressors, muzzle devices, scope mounts, slings, accessories and some optics. We are doing better with supply and demand on high-end optics, long-range precision rifles and bolt action parts.

    I did not mention ammo. We all know that story.
     
    In my neck of the woods it's ok. Parts are plentiful but pricey. You also can't give a AR away at a gunshow either. Even in tiny shows they are awash in ARs. Dozens of ARs in a small show and I didn't see a single one sell. Nor could I sell my PSA for 600 or even get any interest in it. This is all going to crash and the vendors with huge orders at inflated prices are going to get hung with them. All you guys need to be very carful thinking this is the way its going to be going forward. Soon ARs will flood back on the market from the panic buyers and demand will collapse. Be cautious.
     
    sold 4 ar's i had built at the gunshow last month in the first 90 minutes, sold 2 others later in the day. In fact i sold $10,000 in the first 3 1/2 hrs. I was about the only one with AR's . I was the "only" one with 6.5 creedmoor ammo. Sold it all for $3 per rnd. The one's who thought it was to high the first day, came back and bought it the second day. I closed down and went home early, sold out. 2 -eight ft tables grossed $14,000. And this was just stock i've had sitting around for the last 8 years collecting dust . Still plenty of parts out there, just cost a little more than they did awhile back. Same way with ammo right now, almost no one in my town has ammo, why? they only buy from their suppliers. Me, hell i buy it where ever. Ammoseek, Wikiarms, etc. I buy it , ship it in, put a mark up on it and folks flock in my door to buy it, while the others sit with nothing on their shelves. Folks don't give a shit right now what it cost, if u have it, they will buy it. One thing i learned in retail a long time ago, gotta make hay while the suns shining
     
    In my neck of the woods it's ok. Parts are plentiful but pricey. You also can't give a AR away at a gunshow either. Even in tiny shows they are awash in ARs. Dozens of ARs in a small show and I didn't see a single one sell. Nor could I sell my PSA for 600 or even get any interest in it.

    My comments were on the work we do, which is higher-end AR platforms, both what we build with and the brands we resell. I think the more popularly priced items are still available, but I am seeing stress in the supply chain. The higher-end rifles and components are either not available, not taking orders, or the time to deliver is in the months. This time last year, time to deliver to us was measured in days and weeks. I can think of five major manufacturers who have told us: "we are not taking orders" and "we have our factory committed for 18 months."

    So for us, that usually means that we are getting shipments in February, which were placed last April to August. And it means that we cannot place any more orders for the months to come, as the factories are so busy, they will not be able to ship for 3, 9 or 18 months, and they wills start to take orders later.

    Just one guy's view as a manufacturer and a dealer.

    I am sure that mainstream parts and brands have slighlty less pressure. And, I do not think this is a bubble that will burst. These are real backorders that will be filled and customers are waiting to buy. There might be a bubble with ammo, as more and more people are tending to hoard, but less with firearms. There is something like a 8% increase in new gun owners in 2020, and more people at home -- in our line of business -- means they are spending money on hobbies and projects and less on travel and eating out.

    Like any spike in demand and restriction on supply, it will reach an equalibrium, but the firearms industry cannot flex up and flex down as readily as some, so it takes longer for supply to ramp up, and/or demand to subside. Firearms and ammo manufacutrers also have a harder time with capital and labor. Very few busineses are publicly traded, so they cannot issue more stock. Most are privately funded with family money and have very little access to bank financing, as many banks have a policy of not funding our industry based upon liberal leadership and boards. Many are flexing up, but do so slowly. Skills are hard to find and train, and equipment is not easily redeployed to other uses.

    Anyway, thought I would share what we are seeing.

    For anyone who is finding it easy to find parts, we are happy to pay a brokerage fee for some of the parts we find are in tight supply, and some for which we are just out of and cannot build until we get.
     
    I can find quality parts online no problem....? Sounds like larger retailers/builders are getting prioritized over your orders.
     
    I can find quality parts online no problem....? Sounds like larger retailers/builders are getting prioritized over your orders.

    Hi,

    More than likely it is because the actual manufacturer of the components builds rifles themselves and/or sells components themselves...SO guess who is getting priority....
    The entity (Themselves) that makes the higher profit margin.
    Why sell to builder abc for x amount when they can sell direct to consumer for z amount....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    Hi,

    More than likely it is because the actual manufacturer of the components builds rifles themselves and/or sells components themselves...SO guess who is getting priority....
    The entity (Themselves) that makes the higher profit margin.
    Why sell to builder abc for x amount when they can sell direct to consumer for z amount....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    Im not looking at D2C Mfgs.
    Despite the better margins, most MFGs arent in a position to suddenly become competent ecommerce companies.
     
    Yesterday, I got an email from BCM for Upper Receivers being in stock.
    By the time I could check out they were gone.
    IDK how many they had in stock, but they didn't last and they had a limit of 10 UR's per customer
     
    • Like
    Reactions: longshot2000
    Im not looking at D2C Mfgs.
    Despite the better margins, most MFGs arent in a position to suddenly become competent ecommerce companies.

    Hi,

    Well there is nothing "sudden" about what is going on. Manufacturers have been transitioning to the direct to consumer for over 5 years in regards specifically to the firearm components side of the industry.

    It takes less than 1 week to spin up a woocommerce "store" section on a website.

    And clearly they already have at least 1 person that understands firearms and sales or they would not have "dealer" accounts setup. So take that person and dump 10 trainees under him (All of which work remote by the way) and get 3-5 of them that can actually handle the customers direct.

    ALL of that can be done in less than 1 month.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    Parts are available here. I can drive 10 minutes and find everything needed to build an Ar15. Heck brownells had WOA SPR barrels in stock all week till just now.
     
    Hi,

    Well there is nothing "sudden" about what is going on. Manufacturers have been transitioning to the direct to consumer for over 5 years in regards specifically to the firearm components side of the industry.

    It takes less than 1 week to spin up a woocommerce "store" section on a website.

    And clearly they already have at least 1 person that understands firearms and sales or they would not have "dealer" accounts setup. So take that person and dump 10 trainees under him (All of which work remote by the way) and get 3-5 of them that can actually handle the customers direct.

    ALL of that can be done in less than 1 month.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    None of this true - at least not on the volume I'm referring to. Those out of the box ecomm platforms cannot handle the load for tens of millions in yearly revenue.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: longshot2000
    From the inside, we are a dealer and a builder of AR platform guns and also sell some parts.

    We are not the Ace Hardware Store of parts. Others have that covered. But, if you don't realize it already, let me explain: most really good parts come from really good rifle makers. Think of a name you associate with quality. That brand is looking hard for parts: making some parts, buying other parts, all with the primary goal of building and selling rifles. So, every part that is made; every part that is purchased, is destined for a rifle build. Most rifle builders, in normal times buy or make more parts than they really need, so those "excess parts" get sold.

    The situation today, in early 2021, is that there is a critical shortage of certain parts, and a growing problem with other parts. Today, barrels, BCGs and receivers are at crisis levels, and pretty much in that order. Many rifle builders and upper receiver builders cannot get enough quality barrels and BCGs to make uppers. Others who do not make their own upper and lower receivers are finding it starting to get hard to get those.

    Then, there are the parts that make up the larger parts. I know one rifle maker who has stopped taking orders because they cannot get BCGs. The BCG maker has stopped taking orders because they cannot get a gas key screw. So, the entire rifle cannot be built, for lack of a $1.00 part.

    And, just so you know, this situation has been getting worse every week. We saw production capacity at its peak around August, then demand started to surge toward November, and orders fell further and further behind. From the election to the ignauration, demand surged, and the supply chain started to hit critical bumps. And, the bumps have gotten more frequent.

    The problems we have, as a builder right now is barrels, scope rings, muzzle devices and some suppressors. The list ebbs and flows weekly. We are doing better than most, as we have large inventories of certain strategic parts we purchased over the last few years, but we have parts that are keeping us from building and delivering. And, our suppliers have told us, "no more orders until we catch up." That is not true across the board, but every week, another supplier is delaying or stopping orders.

    So, we are also a dealer and reseller of parts. So, guess what happens? We need 100 muzzle devices, and have back orders for 30 rifles and uppers that need breaks or suppressors or scope rings or BCGs. Then, we get a big box in from a supplier. We first want to make sure we can deliver rifles and then upper receiver groups. In the past, we might sell 1/2 of of the parts we get. But, we clearly want to sell rifles in April, so we sit on the parts.

    So, while you wonder where your parts are, I thought I would give you a view from within. Last year, we spent most of our time with customers and taking orders and designing rifles. Now, 2/3 of our time is spent with suppliers and other builders and dealers, begging for parts. Will it return to normal? I am sure it will. But, for us, the brands we work with were at capacity 6 months ago, so it will be a very long time before we get back to normal. For brands that are a little more popular, they will likely see the light and have more supply by summer.

    Our issues are largely with AR parts, quality pistols, high-end gas guns, suppressors, muzzle devices, scope mounts, slings, accessories and some optics. We are doing better with supply and demand on high-end optics, long-range precision rifles and bolt action parts.

    I did not mention ammo. We all know that story.
    I know you gotta get those backorders filled so I’m gonna take a hit for you and offer up a few spare birdcages. 1/$20 or 5/$100 over in the PX. Then we can honestly say, consumers are paying more because dealers are paying more. Just kidding. Good luck with the parts.
     
    Hi,

    LOLOLOL the platforms do not dictate the "load" they can handle in regards to revenue per say, that would be the actual servers the platforms are housed on and MORE importantly the merchant service provider.

    Best "CUSTOM" platform on shitty servers equals loading errors.

    Customized out the box platforms on easily scalable servers with guaranteed "uptime" percentages in the contracts equal the tens of millions in yearly revenue you are referring to.

    All of it is true in reality; whether you think it can be implemented is a different story.


    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    I can find quality parts online no problem....? Sounds like larger retailers/builders are getting prioritized over your orders.
    Show me where the Colt and BCM LPK's are?

    What about the BCM and LMT BCG?

    How about KAC Uppers?

    Where are the Match Barrels? Maybe you can find me a LMT 6.5 Creed barrel under $1500

    What you really mean is you can find the low end shitty parts no problem, but quality is much harder to source.

    The market is flooded with low end hobby grade shit, as it has been for 8 years. The availability of quality gear and parts is very limited.

    Charlies doesn't sell PSA and delton trash. Their customers have more discerning taste.
     
    None of this true - at least not on the volume I'm referring to. Those out of the box ecomm platforms cannot handle the load for tens of millions in yearly revenue.
    If you are moving around that much you can afford both the financial and technical staff/services to run a eCommerce site on one of the major clouds; there are plenty of companies that just do this for other companies. Hell I could move my web hosting to my providers cloud servers when ever I wanted/needed, just need to learn some OpenStack but they have all the documentation right there.

    But as for the OP Im trying to help out, at least a little. A local AR parts manufacturer 5mins from me has stepped out on a limb and is willing to train me as a machinist. My background is in film/photo production and IT so this will be very different from what I've done in the past. But after almost a year without having to directly deal with people on a creative basis I'm ready to learn a new skill.
     
    Last edited:
    Show me where the Colt and BCM LPK's are?

    What about the BCM and LMT BCG?

    How about KAC Uppers?

    Where are the Match Barrels? Maybe you can find me a LMT 6.5 Creed barrel under $1500

    What you really mean is you can find the low end shitty parts no problem, but quality is much harder to source.

    The market is flooded with low end hobby grade shit, as it has been for 8 years. The availability of quality gear and parts is very limited.

    Charlies doesn't sell PSA and delton trash. Their customers have more discerning taste.
    So, in other words...

    Go be poor somewhere else?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Asiparks
    So, in other words...

    Go be poor somewhere else?

    Hi,

    I think I am one of those "poors"....just look at how I have to carry my factory ammunition around at the 1 mile match...
    I wonder if I can get ziploc to sponsor my Team????

    Ziploc.jpg


    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    Hi,

    Well there is nothing "sudden" about what is going on. Manufacturers have been transitioning to the direct to consumer for over 5 years in regards specifically to the firearm components side of the industry.

    It takes less than 1 week to spin up a woocommerce "store" section on a website.

    And clearly they already have at least 1 person that understands firearms and sales or they would not have "dealer" accounts setup. So take that person and dump 10 trainees under him (All of which work remote by the way) and get 3-5 of them that can actually handle the customers direct.

    ALL of that can be done in less than 1 month.

    Sincerely,
    Theis

    Well, there is more to it than meets the eye. I beg to differ with you. There are actually very few manufactuers that do D2C and do it well in the firearms space. Some try to straddle D2C and B2B and do neither real well. Most manufactuers make a decision to focus on manufacturing and not holding inventory, shipping and handling customer service. I think a small manufacturer might try it, but he lacks the leverage to really get in front of the customer with velocity. We have two businesses - one that is manufacturing and one that is dealership B2C - and they are very separate operations. Even our manufacturing is mostly design and then work with the true experts in various areas of rifle making to do the manufacturing.

    To run a B2C business is a very big investment in not just the Website, but fufillment channels, marketing, customer service, inventory management, supplier relationships.

    To run a manufacturing business is all about operations and productivity and capital and production, and the last thing a good manufacturer wants to do is hold inventory. To manufacture, you want to schedule a production run, and get it out the door on pallets, and move to the next part to make and get it out the door. If you are running D2C, then you need to keep inventory, invest in customer service and marketing and SEO and email campaigns and FFL compliance and on and on and on.

    So, not to be arguementative, but what business does DTC in the firearms space, and does it well an does in in scale? Maybe some smaller manufactuers with a small number of niche items. Maybe... actions and triggers come to mind. A few specialty rifle companies, but not many.

    In the gas gun space, LaRue has been DTC, and one could argue whether Mark does that well or not. He makes a good product, and has a loyal following, and also does B2G work with the military. But, I do not think LaRue does DTC well. Geissele has both DTC and B2B. I think they have learned some very hard lessons on just how unprepared they have been for what it takes to run a front office in terms of inventory, Website, promotions and customer service. They have since pulled back considerably to focus on manufacturing. They have not given up DTC, but my guess -- and we are a large Geissele OEM and Dealer -- is that they are doing less DTC and more focus on manufacturing and B2B distribution. Daniel Defense does a little of both, like Geissele. They are a little more mature with their Website and inventory management, but mostly have very little to sell online. LMT is B2B, with the look of DTC, but they have no inventory to sell to customers directly. Noveske, JP Rifles, Criterion barrels and a number of other brands have a smattering of DTC, but they either make a conscious decision to invest in inventory and customer servcie and fulfillment, or they do a little and then leverage distributors and dealers. Colt, FN, Sig Sauer, Cadex, AI, are all B2B.

    I think the businesses that stick to what they do best find the best result.

    But, I digress. My main point in this thread was simply to give an birds-eye view into what I see as a parts shortage that has been building over the last 9 months, and now is at crisis stage with certain parts, and certain brands. Some might not be seeing the same thing. We work in slightly different makets, different suppliers, different parts, different price points.
     
    Hi,

    Well we can debate this for the rest of the year, lolol.

    "Dealers" even the ones acting as "Manufacturers" (Due to BATFE regulations and definitions) require manufacturers to be B2B...that is the essence of how "dealers" are in business.

    NDIA and NSSF have recently held independent meetings in regards to discussing the "future" of the firearms industry....specifically the different business models along with the pros/cons of each model.

    Shit...NSSF is in massive scramble right now for donations because they are anticipating and already seeing a drawdown in SHOT show booths.
    While the NRA show is scrambling to find a larger venue for 2022 since they are already committed to a venue for 2021 because they are not only anticipating but are getting request with money, lol for booth space from manufacturers that have never blinked an eye at wanting to exhibit at the NRA show.

    DTAG (Defense Trade Advisory Group) has held 4 virtual meetings on the "future" of firearm manufacturing business models back when they were holding discussion panels on the transitioning of USML Cat 1-3 from DDTC to Commerce.

    The basically forced remote working over the past year due to Covid regulations is and will continue to change the firearms manufacturing business model.
    Manufacturers are realizing they can rather easily bring on remote CS and remote technical Sales.
    Manufacturers are realizing that the customer experience should not be left up to some joe smuck at the LGS.
    Manufacturers are stepping out of the "Well that is how so and so does it" mentality and stepping into business models of other GIANT international industries.
    CS, marketing, SEO, etc etc will pretty much never amount to the financial burden that setting up a manufacturing facility costs so that is not even in the same league of expenditures in regards to "That is why B2B works better for manufacturers".

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    Last edited:
    Everything to build an AR is not the same thing as everything to build a QUALITY AR.


    You have to be really sucky these days to reach the Olympic level of being a sucky AR builder.

    The "inexpensive" S&W M&Ps we are issued really seem to work just fine for a field grade rifle.

    Its not as nice as my LMT but using it in a class in wet, sandy conditions with wet and sand getting all over and into everything it ran 100 percent.

    I think the feel of the trigger is where you will note the difference as well as some final fit and finish....pray God that your laser engraving doesnt reflect some little tiny artifact that goes right up your ass........but you really have to be intending to build a sucky AR in order to be told your shit is unserviceable for the intended function of AR.
     
    I'm not going to speak for the company as a whole, just my personal order...and this is by no means a bash on Seekins. I would wait until fucking doomsday for their hardware, just a comment of the situation OP presented:

    I ordered an SP-15P from them at the end of June 2020. At the time, their website said "6-8 weeks" lead time. After 12 weeks, I called. I was informed the firearm would not be available until, "the latest would be beginning of January 2021." No problem. At the end of January, I sent an email for status check. Their response was, "sorry FALex, we have no idea when your firearm will be ready," with some apologies and what not strung onto the ass end of the statement.

    Again, I am not saying anything negative about Seekins. I absolutely love Seekins and I don't give two shits how long it's going to take. I'm happy they at least told me that they had no idea when the firearm would be ready. It's easier to forget about ;)

    This is not because they are slow. It is because raw materials are not easy to come by, and whether this is artificially driven, or a by-product of shutting the economy down for almost a year, is difficult to tell.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: easyrhino240
    KAK can suck my KAK, if I am gonna spend that kind of dough on something that shoots bullets it better say AI or Surgeon on it.
    Surgeon? Did you just get here from your time machine in 2010?

    There are two types of people. those who run KAC and those who can't afford to run KAC.

    The poors always make excuses. It validates that they don't really need what they can't buy.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: clcustom1911
    Interesting conversation
     

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    I love to read these conversations. They make me Laugh so hard. Especially those that are all stupid about their brand loyalty. I have brand X and I paid a lot of money for it so it has to be good. This shit cracks me up.

    That said, cheap parts are cheap parts. There is no getting sround that. But expensive parts are not always quality parts. Especially if you actually know the company that makes those parts........ there are two companies out there that have theor parts made in the exact same factory and the internet says one is shit and the other is like the second coming........

    But on the plus side, it is super funny to read. So keep it up.


    And quality parts are out there. Not in mass like they used to be or at their previous prices,
    but they are there.
     
    Surgeon? Did you just get here from your time machine in 2010?

    There are two types of people. those who run KAC and those who can't afford to run KAC.

    The poors always make excuses. It validates that they don't really need what they can't buy.

    I don’t know what KAK has to do with the Knights CQB upper I was talking about.
     
    Surgeon? Did you just get here from your time machine in 2010?

    There are two types of people. those who run KAC and those who can't afford to run KAC.

    The poors always make excuses. It validates that they don't really need what they can't buy.

    You are correct that high quality parts are hard to find, shitty parts available.

    However, why run a kak sucker when you can an Lmt for half the price?
    It’s more modular and does not require a barrel change to be sent back to kak suckers or the need to use a ton of proprietary parts?
    I’m not poor and that’s because I make smart decisions with money not dumb ones.
     
    Why run a kak sucker when you can an Lmt for half the price?
    It’s more modular and does not require a barrel change to be sent back to kak suckers or the need to use a ton of proprietary parts?
    I’m not poor and that’s because I make smart decisions with money not dumb ones.
    For what?

    Small frame sr15 is king
    Large frame I agree MWS is better platform but its a tossup between it and sr25.

    When you shootout a sr15 barrel, let me know.

    Go price up a sr15 and similar featured lmt. KAC is cheaper.
     
    Last edited:
    For what?

    Small frame sr15 is king
    Large frame I agree MWS is better platform but its a tossup between it and sr25.

    When you shootout a sr15 barrel, let me know.

    How is it king? I’ve owned three of them and yes they are lightweight and can be smooth (though one of my mod 2 couldn’t shoot steel case).

    I’ve shoot out Lmt barrels and Id do the same to a KAC if it was my main.
    995C5D63-9AE5-4E47-9DE3-5E3EC6510F3B.jpeg
     
    Hi,

    Well we can debate this for the rest of the year, lolol.

    "Dealers" even the ones acting as "Manufacturers" (Due to BATFE regulations and definitions) require manufacturers to be B2B...that is the essence of how "dealers" are in business.

    NDIA and NSSF have recently held independent meetings in regards to discussing the "future" of the firearms industry....specifically the different business models along with the pros/cons of each model.

    Shit...NSSF is in massive scramble right now for donations because they are anticipating and already seeing a drawdown in SHOT show booths.
    While the NRA show is scrambling to find a larger venue for 2022 since they are already committed to a venue for 2021 because they are not only anticipating but are getting request with money, lol for booth space from manufacturers that have never blinked an eye at wanting to exhibit at the NRA show.

    DTAG (Defense Trade Advisory Group) has held 4 virtual meetings on the "future" of firearm manufacturing business models back when they were holding discussion panels on the transitioning of USML Cat 1-3 from DDTC to Commerce.

    The basically forced remote working over the past year due to Covid regulations is and will continue to change the firearms manufacturing business model.
    Manufacturers are realizing they can rather easily bring on remote CS and remote technical Sales.
    Manufacturers are realizing that the customer experience should not be left up to some joe smuck at the LGS.
    Manufacturers are stepping out of the "Well that is how so and so does it" mentality and stepping into business models of other GIANT international industries.
    CS, marketing, SEO, etc etc will pretty much never amount to the financial burden that setting up a manufacturing facility costs so that is not even in the same league of expenditures in regards to "That is why B2B works better for manufacturers".

    Sincerely,
    Theis

    What do you think a warehouse with enough square footage costs? What do you think warehouse management systems cost? What do you think fulfillment equipment costs? Inventory insurance? Now add in staffing.

    MFGs ≠ CS, Ops, Fulfillment, Inventory management, etc.

    Trade shows have nothing to do with that aspect of the industry, so no idea why you even brought it up.
     
    Surgeon? Did you just get here from your time machine in 2010?

    There are two types of people. those who run KAC and those who can't afford to run KAC.

    The poors always make excuses. It validates that they don't really need what they can't buy.
    theres a 3rd type: People who can afford it and choose not.
     
    What do you think a warehouse with enough square footage costs? What do you think warehouse management systems cost? What do you think fulfillment equipment costs? Inventory insurance? Now add in staffing.

    MFGs ≠ CS, Ops, Fulfillment, Inventory management, etc.

    Trade shows have nothing to do with that aspect of the industry, so no idea why you even brought it up.

    Hi,

    Would you like me to tell you what I "think" they cost or would you rather me provide direct experience of said costs lol?
    1. 12k square foot warehouse is $475k.
    2. Warehouse management system (perpetual licensed program) is $20k.
    3. Inventory and Fulfillment systems to account for everything from raw stock inventory all the way through production cycle(s) to the deliver truck is $350 per month.
    4. Inventory insurance, lol.....That is the cheapest of all insurance a firearms manufacturer will have.
    5. Staffing is roughly 45k per employee.

    COMPARISON NOTE: A SINGLE DMG Mori DMU 50 with pallet system is 600k before tooling. So as I said.....all these other cost are a mute point.

    The fact that you think manufacturers do not equal CS, Ops, Fulfillment, inventory management, etc pretty much tells me all I need to know in this conversation.
    1. Who do you think the end user calls for "Customer Support"? Deadeye Dick from the LGS or the MANUFACTURER, lol?
    2. How do you think manufacturers track raw goods to finished product without inventory management systems?
    3. How do you think manufacturers "fulfill" dealer orders with no fulfillment system in place, lol?

    Trade Shows have nothing to do with aspect of the industry???
    Seriously dude; stick to your day job.
    1. How many manufacturers attend trade shows (costing 20k-200k) to NOT sell products.
    The FACT that manufacturers are choosing to participate LESS in a show setup for "dealer" sales and beating down the doors to participate in a show setup for "consumers" would be called a CLUE.

    You do realize that pretty much every aspect of the firearms industry is and/or transitioning rapidly to consumer direct except (this one is slowly transitioning) serialized parts right?
    Barrels...direct (one of OP needed items)
    Stocks/Chassis...direct
    Triggers...direct
    Scopes...direct
    Scope mounts...direct (one of OP needed items)
    Muzzle brakes...direct (one of OP needed items)
    AR Uppers....direct (one of OP needed items)
    AR BCG...direct (one of OP needed items)

    Even most stand alone receiver manufacturers...direct

    So the concept that full firearm manufacturers are not going to transition that direction is ridiculous.

    The NSSF, BATFE and US Department of Commerce are already working on the issue and logistics of such due to the fact that more and more brick and mortar LGS are closing. US Dept of Commerce is driving the boat on new "transfer" procedures and guidelines for BATFE to review at this very minute.

    Get used to seeing the terminology of "Transfer" dealer instead of "Stocking" dealer....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    MFGs ≠ CS, Ops, Fulfillment, Inventory management, etc.

    We do both. Not in the firearms space, but we do both.

    To sit here and say that a mfg can't do both...............LOL

    I don't know what you do for a living but I know what @THEIS and I do for a living.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: E. Bryant
    Hi,

    I think I am one of those "poors"....just look at how I have to carry my factory ammunition around at the 1 mile match...
    I wonder if I can get ziploc to sponsor my Team????

    View attachment 7574775

    Sincerely,
    Theis

    Bro, go buy a Non Poors track suit. The pockets will handle whatever crap ammo you are toting around for that wanna-be blaster. Probably makes a rusty AK seem accurate and a Hi-Point seem reliable.

    GBPSE

    😆 😆 😆 😆
     
    Bro, go buy a Non Poors track suit. The pockets will handle whatever crap ammo you are toting around for that wanna-be blaster. Probably makes a rusty AK seem accurate and a Hi-Point seem reliable.

    GBPSE

    😆 😆 😆 😆

    Hi,

    Actually I just got my new limited edition track suit yesterday and I am wearing it right now...Sadly the belt motor stopped working on my NordicTrack X32i this morning.
    Guess who handled the customer service call on that??? The MANUFACTURER....how dare them for having that ability right.....

    Now back to the new tract suit.....Direct gift from Putin and Ramzan for assisting the Russian/Chechen SWAT competition Teams in Dubai a few weeks ago.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    Surgeon? Did you just get here from your time machine in 2010?

    There are two types of people. those who run KAC and those who can't afford to run KAC.

    The poors always make excuses. It validates that they don't really need what they can't buy.
    Honestly, I can buy whatever I want to and I do buy quality components for my guns, but this idea that KAK is the be all end all is kind of silly.
     
    Hi,

    Actually I just got my new limited edition track suit yesterday and I am wearing it right now...Sadly the belt motor stopped working on my NordicTrack X32i this morning.
    Guess who handled the customer service call on that??? The MANUFACTURER....how dare them for having that ability right.....

    Now back to the new tract suit.....Direct gift from Putin and Ramzan for assisting the Russian/Chechen SWAT competition Teams in Dubai a few weeks ago.

    Sincerely,
    Theis


    1615129874454.png
     
    Hi,

    Would you like me to tell you what I "think" they cost or would you rather me provide direct experience of said costs lol?
    1. 12k square foot warehouse is $475k.
    2. Warehouse management system (perpetual licensed program) is $20k.
    3. Inventory and Fulfillment systems to account for everything from raw stock inventory all the way through production cycle(s) to the deliver truck is $350 per month.
    4. Inventory insurance, lol.....That is the cheapest of all insurance a firearms manufacturer will have.
    5. Staffing is roughly 45k per employee.

    COMPARISON NOTE: A SINGLE DMG Mori DMU 50 with pallet system is 600k before tooling. So as I said.....all these other cost are a mute point.

    The fact that you think manufacturers do not equal CS, Ops, Fulfillment, inventory management, etc pretty much tells me all I need to know in this conversation.
    1. Who do you think the end user calls for "Customer Support"? Deadeye Dick from the LGS or the MANUFACTURER, lol?
    2. How do you think manufacturers track raw goods to finished product without inventory management systems?
    3. How do you think manufacturers "fulfill" dealer orders with no fulfillment system in place, lol?

    Trade Shows have nothing to do with aspect of the industry???
    Seriously dude; stick to your day job.
    1. How many manufacturers attend trade shows (costing 20k-200k) to NOT sell products.
    The FACT that manufacturers are choosing to participate LESS in a show setup for "dealer" sales and beating down the doors to participate in a show setup for "consumers" would be called a CLUE.

    You do realize that pretty much every aspect of the firearms industry is and/or transitioning rapidly to consumer direct except (this one is slowly transitioning) serialized parts right?
    Barrels...direct (one of OP needed items)
    Stocks/Chassis...direct
    Triggers...direct
    Scopes...direct
    Scope mounts...direct (one of OP needed items)
    Muzzle brakes...direct (one of OP needed items)
    AR Uppers....direct (one of OP needed items)
    AR BCG...direct (one of OP needed items)

    Even most stand alone receiver manufacturers...direct

    So the concept that full firearm manufacturers are not going to transition that direction is ridiculous.

    The NSSF, BATFE and US Department of Commerce are already working on the issue and logistics of such due to the fact that more and more brick and mortar LGS are closing. US Dept of Commerce is driving the boat on new "transfer" procedures and guidelines for BATFE to review at this very minute.

    Get used to seeing the terminology of "Transfer" dealer instead of "Stocking" dealer....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    $45K for an employee? Are you planning on running a company with fresh graduates only?
    Half of what you said is just not true. You can say it with conviction, but it doesn't add any validity.
     
    Hi,

    How about we do this, in order to reduce the amount of time spent.

    Post up your Type 7 license. IF you do not have one then you probably should not open your mouth or move your fingers with anything related to actual firearms manufacturing and its' business models.
    1615136143131.png


    Post up your direct knowledge of the Firearms industry innerworkings. Working at the LGS doesn't count either, lol.

    What Division(s) and Committee of NDIA are you a member of?
    Do you have a DDTC registration?
    Did you host or attend any DDTC event in the past year?
    Did you host or attend any Department of Commerce event in the past year?
    When is the last time you took part in industry open session meetings held by BATFE?

    And for shits and giggles....line out just what I said in that previous thread that was not true!!

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    I'm not sure you can call a man out on what things cost if he is actually buying them. Wouldn't he know?