LMT MWS chronicles continue: talked to Gene at LMT today

[bm11]

This is a continuation of my threads chronicling my experiences with my new LMT MWS LM8 with a 20" SS barrel. Cliff notes: I bought the rifle, have struggled with it to get consistent sub moa accuracy. Tried all different combinations of loads as well as most makes of factory match ammo. Overall, performance has increased as I have gone along, to the point where some handloads show decent promise. However, I felt it wasn't living up to the accuracy reports I had read on line, and felt legitimately that after 300 and change rounds that I could say honestly that it isn't the shooter, it is the rifle.

I called this morning and asked for Gene. He was in a meeting, I got his voicemail. He called back around noon, and let me say this- Gene is as nice and professional as you can find in this business. He asked about my concerns, and I explained that the rifle is not consistent sub moa. He asked what ammo I had been shooting through it, I told him Hornady TAP, Federal Gold Medal Match, m118lr, and mk316 mod 0. He asked how many rounds through the rifle at this point, and I told him the current total- 328.

He told me I could ship it back and they would be glad to take a look at it, see if there is any crown damage, etc, but honestly, the accuracy I have been getting is right in line with what they expect. They market the MWS as a battle rifle designed to engage man size targets out to 600-800 meters, not to shoot little 1" dots at 100. He also said that a lot of what is posted on the internet is exaggerated- like a guy posting a group with four rounds in a half inch and a "flier" opening the group up to 1.25" but claiming the flier to be his fault and the rifle shoots "half moa all day long when I do my part." The rifle was designed with the utmost reliability in mind- not bolt gun accuracy. He said if it was shooting in the 2" range he would suggest there is an issue but at .9-1.5", mine is right in line with what they see.

Honestly- I am completely at ease with his explanation, and with my rifle. I bought it expecting more precision based on internet reports, and it is obvious based on proof that some of these DO SHOOT! But LMT doesn't make an accuracy claim or guarantee, nor do they market it as a precision rifle. They market it as a DMR rifle or battle rifle. Some obviously make it out of the factory with exceptional accuracy but certainly not all.

That being said- where do I go from here? Well, the next step is obvious to me: I had a number of handloads that showed .8-.9 moa performance. I'll try those loads again and see if it replicates the performance. If so, I'll be happy, as sub moa works for me as long as it is consistent.

But if not, I really still have a gun that won't consistently perform sub moa, and that means I need to find a solution. There really are only two options I am considering:
1- buy a known performer with a published accuracy guarantee (probably a OBR.)
2- contract GAP to use my barrel extension and spin up a Bartlein to GAP specs. This would be bad ass, as I would have a unique MWS (and possibly the most accurate in existence.) But it means I have to wait.

So that brings me to possibility 3: do both.

Thoughts?

Thanks for reading,

-Bob

 

[elfster1234]

I think the big question is.... do you want to stick with .308 / 7.62 OR go with something like 260 or 6creed or whatever?

being really honest here, I think I would consider selling the entire rifle and have GAP build you a 260 or 6creed custom GAP10.... from what I've seen they are true lasers (talk to jon lester here on the hide, he is a smart / good dude and owns one himself)..... you just need to keep in mind the price of ammo and reloading components if going this route.... it will not really be a battle rifle anymore IMO and will be a true semi auto precision rig.... I just don't think you will get the performance you want out the .308 / 7.62x51 cartridge regardless of manufacture IMO and with my own experience. If you do sell the entire rifle, then you better act fast as I'm sure prices will drop like a rock soon.

they do offer a 260 barrel for the LMT if you can find one, but some do not like the twist rate it comes with... if everything "gets back to normal" 260 LMT barrels might pop up if you can live with the twist rate.... if you consider this option maybe even call gene again @ LMT and check on availability of these 260 LMT barrels.

I hope I've been some help bro. I think everything I've stated has been in line with what gene @ LMT said and my own experience. Just trying to be honest with you.

 

[Bradu]

I think the big question is.... do you want to stick with .308 / 7.62 OR go with something like 260 or 6creed or whatever?

being really honest here, I think I would consider selling the entire rifle and have GAP build you a 260 or 6creed custom GAP10.... from what I've seen they are true lasers (talk to jon lester here on the hide, he is a smart / good dude and owns one himself)..... you just need to keep in mind the price of ammo and reloading components if going this route.... it will not really be a battle rifle anymore IMO and will be a true semi auto precision rig.... I just don't think you will get the performance you want out the .308 / 7.62x51 cartridge. If you do sell the entire rifle, then you better act fast as I'm sure prices will drop like a rock soon.

they do offer a 260 barrel for the LMT if you can find one, but some do not like the twist rate it comes with... if everything "gets back to normal" 260 LMT barrels might pop up if you can live with the twist rate.... if you consider this option maybe even call gene again @ LMT and check on availability of these 260 LMT barrels.

I hope I've been some help bro. I think everything I've stated has been in line with what gene @ LMT said and my own experience. Just trying to be honest with you.

WHat would going with an LMt .260 barrel solve? It sounds like he isn't happy with the accuracy of the gun so I would either see if one of the smith's here on the hide can spin up a barrel for an LMT barrel extension or sell it, recoup most of his money and choose one of the smiths' on the hide to build one. Bad thing is parts are pretty scarce right now so the second option isn't a great option right now.

 

[elfster1234]

totally agree with you... just an option bro

WHat would going with an LMt .260 barrel solve? It sounds like he isn't happy with the accuracy of the gun so I would either see if one of the smith's here on the hide can spin up a barrel for an LMT barrel extension or sell it, recoup most of his money and choose one of the smiths' on the hide to build one. Bad thing is parts are pretty scarce right now so the second option isn't a great option right now.

 

[GUNNER10]

as you have mentioned you have some options, but first I think you really need to ask yourself what do you want out of your MWS? while you are not getting bolt gun groups, but your solid 1 MOA accuracy is pretty much good enough to win a competition as long as you do your job with ranging and wind calls. hunting, good to go, benchrest no so much

I would recommend against going with an Gap10 or an OBR, for a couple reason, the difference in accuracy you are going to see is going to be negligible. elfster did a submoa all day competition a few months back and while I believe there was a Ga10 in the top ten, there was also an MWS, most of the top place guns were built up using bull barrels

the MWS is the only platform out there where you can have a both battle rifle and bull barreled with the removal of two bolts, you want the most accuracy out of a 308 AR, call Krieger up and a heavy ass .936 profile barrel and drop it in your MWS and go to town, feel like something a little lighter drop in the SS

also something I noticed with mine, it really takes some getting used to the trigger if you have been shooting bolt guns for a while, i may swap out my lmt for a gieselle as its a little cleaner, as i found myself getting caught off guard last time i took my LMT out

while it is no surgeon or custom 700, it really excels in the role which it was designed.

 

[jbell]

First off, Bob that sounds very respectiable how Gene is taking care of busness, kudos to him and his company for sure! I do have to say the LMT MWS is a very well made and well thought out rifle. IMO the upper is the best looking and feeling I have ever used mono or not. That being said, I have a question or well a statement.

I suppose I would have to take it all into context, meaning: What do the majority of us "fourm members here on the hide" use our rifles/kit for? I dont know about anyone else but I am lucky enough to be a target shooter, defined as I shoot at targets that do NOT shoot back. My days of needing a "battle rifle" are and have been over for almost 13 years now. So if I were to list in order of importance the criteria for my kit it would be like this:

#1- accuracy
#2- reliability
#3- durability
#4- cool factor

To explain my self:

ACCURACY - As stated before I am a target shooter, not a gun fighter. I may shoot in a manner or style and with kit that mimics a gun fighter as that is how I enjoy shooting (most of the time) it dosent mean that I have to or am willing to sacrifice any accuracy for the utmost reliability and durability. When I have a shot that is not where I call it I need to rest assure that it is me, not my kit. By doing so I can in turn push my shooting to the limites of precision with out second guessing myself. Here is an example, last month my TRG started shooting much worse than it ever has. Now I verified all the usual, optics and mount were ok, ammo was still optimal, not a lose nut behind the trigger ect. That being said a factory Sako TRG22 308 barrel went south at 4650 rounds. That is not exactly typical, based on what you hear for round counts with the 308. When I say it went south it means the rifle went from shooting sub 1/2 moa very consistantly to sub moa (in the 5/8 to 3/4 range) more often than not, this happened over night. I had to determine if this was acceptiable for my specific criteria, and it is not. What this would do is open the door to negitive reinforcement and dobut, not something I want in my traning regiment. So Jered Jopplin has it as I sit here putting a new barrel on it.

RELIABILIYT - This is very important to me not for a personal/team safety stand point but from a aggervation free stand point. I will not have a finicky peice of kit that may function 80% of the time. But this dont mean that I am willing to cut one bit of accuracy for the increase of reliability. What it means is I will find what fits the accuracy bill and then prove it to be reliable not the other way around. I understand 100% how it cant be this way for a gun fighter, but I have the luxury to be able to do it this way.

DURABILITY - I also have the luxury to be able to take care of my kit in a way that it may not have to be the most durable. I dont purposely abuse my gear just to see what it can handle. I dont have to operate in hostile enviroments if I choose not to and if I do i can take precautions accordingly.

COOL FACTOR - Well hell I have to like what I am spending so much cash on...

So these are just my thoughts, it may be a little off topic but I feel it may be another way of looking at all this.

 

[coues7]

First off, Bob that sounds very respectiable how Gene is taking care of busness, kudos to him and his company for sure! I do have to say the LMT MWS is a very well made and well thought out rifle. IMO the upper is the best looking and feeling I have ever used mono or not. That being said, I have a question or well a statement.

I suppose I would have to take it all into context, meaning: What do the majority of us "fourm members here on the hide" use our rifles/kit for? I dont know about anyone else but I am lucky enough to be a target shooter, defined as I shoot at targets that do NOT shoot back. My days of needing a "battle rifle" are and have been over for almost 13 years now. So if I were to list in order of importance the criteria for my kit it would be like this:

#1- accuracy
#2- reliability
#3- durability
#4- cool factor

To explain my self:

ACCURACY - As stated before I am a target shooter, not a gun fighter. I may shoot in a manner or style and with kit that mimics a gun fighter as that is how I enjoy shooting (most of the time) it dosent mean that I have to or am willing to sacrifice any accuracy for the utmost reliability and durability. When I have a shot that is not where I call it I need to rest assure that it is me, not my kit. By doing so I can in turn push my shooting to the limites of precision with out second guessing myself. Here is an example, last month my TRG started shooting much worse than it ever has. Now I verified all the usual, optics and mount were ok, ammo was still optimal, not a lose nut behind the trigger ect. That being said a factory Sako TRG22 308 barrel went south at 4650 rounds. That is not exactly typical, based on what you hear for round counts with the 308. When I say it went south it means the rifle went from shooting sub 1/2 moa very consistantly to sub moa (in the 5/8 to 3/4 range) more often than not, this happened over night. I had to determine if this was acceptiable for my specific criteria, and it is not. What this would do is open the door to negitive reinforcement and dobut, not something I want in my traning regiment. So Jered Jopplin has it as I sit here putting a new barrel on it.

RELIABILIYT - This is very important to me not for a personal/team safety stand point but from a aggervation free stand point. I will not have a finicky peice of kit that may function 80% of the time. But this dont mean that I am willing to cut one bit of accuracy for the increase of reliability. What it means is I will find what fits the accuracy bill and then prove it to be reliable not the other way around. I understand 100% how it cant be this way for a gun fighter, but I have the luxury to be able to do it this way.

DURABILITY - I also have the luxury to be able to take care of my kit in a way that it may not have to be the most durable. I dont purposely abuse my gear just to see what it can handle. I dont have to operate in hostile enviroments if I choose not to and if I do i can take precautions accordingly.

COOL FACTOR - Well hell I have to like what I am spending so much cash on...

So these are just my thoughts, it may be a little off topic but I feel it may be another way of looking at all this.

Very well put.

 

[elfster1234]

I wish you the best of luck brother and I hope you find a set up you can enjoy. I went thru the very same thing you're going thru. I know how much this stuff can drive ya a little bit nuts when it doesn't work out the way you want it. I'm really happy with my .9, maybe .8moa at best average LMT with some good load development.. Maybe 6 to 7 5shot groups out of 10 will be sub-moa and I can work with this as a DM battle rifle. Like I stated before, I'll give up a bit of accuracy for reliability and the availability of ammo / reloading components when it comes to the 7.62x51 cartridge. Send me a PM with any other questions and I'll try my best to help you out.


One last note, IMO it is not always bad giving up a tad bit of accuracy for reliability with a hint of precision. Having a "built like a tank" DM battle rifle is not always a bad thing to have IMO. Like I've said time and time again, I still think you can get that very last bit of accuracy to get you into the sub-moa range on most groups (not all) with more load development and more practice behind the rifle. But you're on the right track to getting every single inch of accuracy out of the rifle already.

Best of luck bro!

I guess what I'm saying here....

1.) are your groups unreal kick ass right out of the gate? no, but they are not bad from what I've seen others do with similar rifles in .308 cal (mind you im NOT talking about .223, 6creed, or 260).

2.) are your groups like my LMT when I first got it? kinda yes. my groups might have been a little bit better starting out but not that far off.

3.) is the .308 in an AR the best cartridge to use for a precision AR? NO, absolutely not... look at 6creed or 260.

4.) is .308 in the AR an excellent battle rifle cartridge with maybe a hint of precision? yes! the supply of factory ammo and reloading components are un-matched other than maybe .223 / 5.56.

5.) can you use your bolt action experience in coming to a conclusion about shooting a larger .308 AR and above cartridge AR (not .223, 6creed, or 260)??? no, they are two different animals.... shooting a .308 AR and above is a whole different animal. Try shooting the new .338 AR's and maybe a .50bmg... and see what kind of MOA you get then. it should be no different than shooting a .338 bolt action right? NO!

6.) is it possible you could've had a .75moa .308 AR rifle out of the gate? yes, but unlikely with my past experience and from what I've seen from my friends. even here on SH.

7.) do I think you should send in your barrel to LMT or maybe sell it and start over with a 260 AR set up? maybe, but that's up to you! I can only help you out with my own experience and from what I've seen others do with big cal AR rigs.

8.) do I think you should give it more time for any possible myths about AR break in time and load development WITH GASSERS knowing my past experience with semi auto AR's??? yes

9.) can you expect an AR to shoot even close to a bolt action, especially in .308 cartridge and above? NO

10.) should you expect sub moa on every group? hell no!

11.) can you expect to get .5moa shoots all day long? hell no!

12.) other people that say they get sub-moa on every single 5shot group with a .308 and above AR full of shit? hell yes! well maybe 1 in 10,000.... LOL

12.) can you expect to get sub moa with your .308 cal AR on most of your groups? hell yes!

13.) am I full of shit? maybe! LOL, but I try my best at giving out the best possible information that I can and with what I've posted above.....

if you want a true laser of a precision AR, then you might want to consider selling the LMT and do a custom build in 260 or 6creed or what ever..... maybe even have GAP build you a 6creed AR..... but mind you.... unlike your slow shooting bolt action... semi auto's LOVE to eat up the ammo and your money$$$ as you obviously don't need me to spell this out to you.... this is why I LOVE my .308 / 7.62 LMT battle rifle with a hint of precision... it is a down right tank of a rifle and have NEVER ONCE FTF / FTE, regardless of factory / reloads,,, doesn't come close to 7.62x51 barrel life especially with my CL, and doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to shoot it.... my reloading bench is stocked to the hilt with .308 bullets and is only costing me $8.80 per 20round box comparison. I could load up well over 2k in .308 ammo right now if I wanted to... Just another reason why I have rigs in .223 / 5.56... I could load up well over 3k in 5.56 right now if I wanted to for about $5.60 per 20round box comparison.... it is times like these, when ammo and components are hard to get you wish you had a 5.56 or a 7.62x51 AR rifle.

oh yeah, btw...... I want to say I read somewhere in the LMT main thread someone called LMT with the very same issue BM11 is going thru and they told this person something on the lines of, "these are not precision rifles, they were designed as battle rifles. the most you'll get is 1moa tops" or something like that. I'll see if I can find the quote.

This is a continuation of my threads chronicling my experiences with my new LMT MWS LM8 with a 20" SS barrel. Cliff notes: I bought the rifle, have struggled with it to get consistent sub moa accuracy. Tried all different combinations of loads as well as most makes of factory match ammo. Overall, performance has increased as I have gone along, to the point where some handloads show decent promise. However, I felt it wasn't living up to the accuracy reports I had read on line, and felt legitimately that after 300 and change rounds that I could say honestly that it isn't the shooter, it is the rifle.

I called this morning and asked for Gene. He was in a meeting, I got his voicemail. He called back around noon, and let me say this- Gene is as nice and professional as you can find in this business. He asked about my concerns, and I explained that the rifle is not consistent sub moa. He asked what ammo I had been shooting through it, I told him Hornady TAP, Federal Gold Medal Match, m118lr, and mk316 mod 0. He asked how many rounds through the rifle at this point, and I told him the current total- 328.

He told me I could ship it back and they would be glad to take a look at it, see if there is any crown damage, etc, but honestly, the accuracy I have been getting is right in line with what they expect. They market the MWS as a battle rifle designed to engage man size targets out to 600-800 meters, not to shoot little 1" dots at 100. He also said that a lot of what is posted on the internet is exaggerated- like a guy posting a group with four rounds in a half inch and a "flier" opening the group up to 1.25" but claiming the flier to be his fault and the rifle shoots "half moa all day long when I do my part." The rifle was designed with the utmost reliability in mind- not bolt gun accuracy. He said if it was shooting in the 2" range he would suggest there is an issue but at .9-1.5", mine is right in line with what they see.

Honestly- I am completely at ease with his explanation, and with my rifle. I bought it expecting more precision based on internet reports, and it is obvious based on proof that some of these DO SHOOT! But LMT doesn't make an accuracy claim or guarantee, nor do they market it as a precision rifle. They market it as a DMR rifle or battle rifle. Some obviously make it out of the factory with exceptional accuracy but certainly not all.

That being said- where do I go from here? Well, the next step is obvious to me: I had a number of handloads that showed .8-.9 moa performance. I'll try those loads again and see if it replicates the performance. If so, I'll be happy, as sub moa works for me as long as it is consistent.

But if not, I really still have a gun that won't consistently perform sub moa, and that means I need to find a solution. There really are only two options I am considering:
1- buy a known performer with a published accuracy guarantee (probably a OBR.)
2- contract GAP to use my barrel extension and spin up a Bartlein to GAP specs. This would be bad ass, as I would have a unique MWS (and possibly the most accurate in existence.) But it means I have to wait.

So that brings me to possibility 3: do both.

Thoughts?

Thanks for reading,

-Bob

 

[sinister]

A common theme through all your threads is, "...or get an OBR."

Sell the LMT and buy an OBR. You can throw a little or a lot of money at the LMT -- but it'll never be an OBR.

If you want it, get it. It might or might not shoot tighter, but you'll be happier, sooner.

(I have an AR-10T and a 10T Carbine and am happy with both)

 

[jbell]

Elf,
I am not disagreeing with you at all. I hope I didnt come across that way. I was just thinking out loud so to speek. It is all realtive, I think if the MWS would be a consistant slightly sub moa (.8 ish @ 100) with out the wild flyers then it would be rocking and I would love to have one then. I know there is a lot to be said for ultra tough gear, I am a big fan of the AW/AX and TRG rifles because they deliver both. I think you bring a lot to this table and have been very helpfull and pretty damn spot on based on your experience with this project. This has been very intresting to me for sure...

 

[jbell]

A common theme through all your threads is, "...or get an OBR."

Sell the LMT and buy an OBR. You can throw a little or a lot of money at the LMT -- but it'll never be an OBR.

If you want it, get it. It might or might not shoot tighter, but you'll be happier, sooner.

(I have an AR-10T and a 10T Carbine and am happy with both)

The funny thing is he has already had one, or two...

 

[elfster1234]

honestly !!??? now that is too funny... good stuff.... guess it is time to give GAP a roll. Hehehe, just poking fun at ya.

The funny thing is he has already had one, or two...

 

[Bradu]

9.) can you expect an AR to shoot even close to a bolt action, especially in .308 cartridge and above? NO

You may want to reconsider that statement. There are a few vendors here that can build a 1/2"-3/4" gas gun which will run with a lot of bolt guns. I guess I don't understand why you think a .260 can be made into a "precision AR" but a .308 is considered more a battle rifle cartridge. The .308 is just as capable as any of the other cartridges you listed.

 

[elfster1234]

OMG, I give up.. LOL.. I think I've said enough BS for once. hahaha. not even going to respond to this. Read everything I've said in BM11's 4 other threads about his LMT and say this very same thing to me again.

You may want to reconsider that statement. There are a few vendors here that can build a 1/2"-3/4" gas gun which will run with a lot of bolt guns. I guess I don't understand why you think a .260 can be made into a "precision AR" but a .308 is considered more a battle rifle cartridge. The .308 is just as capable as any of the other cartridges you listed.

 

[bm11]

I think the big question is.... do you want to stick with .308 / 7.62 OR go with something like 260 or 6creed or whatever?

being really honest here, I think I would consider selling the entire rifle and have GAP build you a 260 or 6creed custom GAP10.... from what I've seen they are true lasers (talk to jon lester here on the hide, he is a smart / good dude and owns one himself)..... you just need to keep in mind the price of ammo and reloading components if going this route.... it will not really be a battle rifle anymore IMO and will be a true semi auto precision rig.... I just don't think you will get the performance you want out the .308 / 7.62x51 cartridge regardless of manufacture IMO and with my own experience. If you do sell the entire rifle, then you better act fast as I'm sure prices will drop like a rock soon.

they do offer a 260 barrel for the LMT if you can find one, but some do not like the twist rate it comes with... if everything "gets back to normal" 260 LMT barrels might pop up if you can live with the twist rate.... if you consider this option maybe even call gene again @ LMT and check on availability of these 260 LMT barrels.

I hope I've been some help bro. I think everything I've stated has been in line with what gene @ LMT said and my own experience. Just trying to be honest with you.

You have been a help and I do appreciate the input. I disagree about the .308 being less inherently accurate in a gasser, however. I think the .308 is mechanically every bit as accurate, and you just didn't have enough good examples in your "6 groups of 5 thread."

 

[jbell]

honestly !!??? now that is too funny... good stuff.... guess it is time to give GAP a roll. Hehehe, just poking fun at ya.

HAHA, I dont want to speek for BM11 but...

Maybe now you can see why he is expecting so much out of this MWS.

 

[jbell]

Some might even say he has a problem, but not me as I am in the same damn boat

 

[elfster1234]

everyone has a right to their opinion... I can respect that. This is also coming from shooting other people's AR also. Just not a "shootout" thread. live and learn.. live and learn. it is a never ending battle when it comes to rifles.

You have been a help and I do appreciate the input. I disagree about the .308 being less inherently accurate in a gasser, however. I think the .308 is mechanically every bit as accurate, and you just didn't have enough good examples in your "6 groups of 5 thread."

 

[elfster1234]

Some might even say he has a problem, but not me as I am in the same damn boat

LOL, good stuff jbell... I think we all have this very same bug. I enjoyed your information and input.

 

[bm11]

as you have mentioned you have some options, but first I think you really need to ask yourself what do you want out of your MWS? while you are not getting bolt gun groups, but your solid 1 MOA accuracy is pretty much good enough to win a competition as long as you do your job with ranging and wind calls. hunting, good to go, benchrest no so much

I would recommend against going with an Gap10 or an OBR, for a couple reason, the difference in accuracy you are going to see is going to be negligible. elfster did a submoa all day competition a few months back and while I believe there was a Ga10 in the top ten, there was also an MWS, most of the top place guns were built up using bull barrels

the MWS is the only platform out there where you can have a both battle rifle and bull barreled with the removal of two bolts, you want the most accuracy out of a 308 AR, call Krieger up and a heavy ass .936 profile barrel and drop it in your MWS and go to town, feel like something a little lighter drop in the SS

also something I noticed with mine, it really takes some getting used to the trigger if you have been shooting bolt guns for a while, i may swap out my lmt for a gieselle as its a little cleaner, as i found myself getting caught off guard last time i took my LMT out

while it is no surgeon or custom 700, it really excels in the role which it was designed.

I think you misread my post. If my rifle was a consistent sub moa I would be fine with the performance. It is not. The best groups are barely sub moa but a lot are more like 1.5 moa. With quality ammo. I am still doing load development, if I can find a load that shoots a consistent sub moa, the rifle will fit my needs.

 

[bm11]

A common theme through all your threads is, "...or get an OBR."

Sell the LMT and buy an OBR. You can throw a little or a lot of money at the LMT -- but it'll never be an OBR.

If you want it, get it. It might or might not shoot tighter, but you'll be happier, sooner.

(I have an AR-10T and a 10T Carbine and am happy with both)

But I love the mws! I say "buy an OBR" because I know they can shoot. I had one, sold it (stupidly.) It shot very well. If I could make the MWS shoot I'd be in heaven.

 

[elfster1234]

BM11..... I seriously hope you laugh when I say this & don't take this too seriously.... and I consider you a really good online friend with awesome information.


You're LMT threads are making my brain hurt. Kinda like eating ice cream too fast on a hot summer day. LOL JK


Take it easy brother. Send me a PM if you think I can help ya out.

I think you misread my post. If my rifle was a consistent sub moa I would be fine with the performance. It is not. The best groups are barely sub moa but a lot are more like 1.5 moa. With quality ammo. I am still doing load development, if I can find a load that shoots a consistent sub moa, the rifle will fit my needs.

 

[sinister]

But I love the mws! I say "buy an OBR" because I know they can shoot. I had one, sold it (stupidly.) It shot very well. If I could make the MWS shoot I'd be in heaven.

I think it'll be easier to take the OBR out of the box and get it shooting sub-MOA than re-working the MWS. Whatever loads you were using seemed to get you working, sooner.

 

[jonthomps]

I totally second what elfster stated - sell the LMT (I own two. man, it hurt typing that) and place an order for a GAP-10. You'll be happy you did. As is often the case, the most direct route to the solution is most likely the correct one.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

see but OBR's demand a premium right now and to get one he is goin to have to spend 1200 dollars more then he spent on his MWS. he now has two barrels for it, for 500 dollars he could spin one of his MWS barrels into a GAP bartlien and i almost bet you anything you could get every penny out of doin that.

 

[nexusfire]

Have you considered a kac?

Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Bm11,

My advise would be to send the AR to LMT...if the replaced barrel still shoots .8-1.5MOA, you haven't really lost anything. If it's consistent, then so much the better.

I'm gonna throw this out there, then tell you what I would do if the replaced barrel still shoots .8-1.5MOA.

I hope that your experience with the MWS, LMT's response re AR platform accuracy & Elfster's 30-round 5 shot groups tells you this...you don't gain much for spending 2-3 times on a name brand AR than going with a DPMS, Rockriver, or Armalite...not in reliability and especially not in accuracy...you can build an AR that would be more accurate off the lower end receivers than you can buy from most factory produced "high end" rifles. The high end rifles will generally have better QC and fancier finish, but every shop puts out the occasional lemons...especially ones that put out thousands of rifles every month.

One of my first 308ARs was a stock DPMS LR-308. I replaced the 24" bull barrel with a 20" HBAR in order to save weight and make it more handy for hunting. The result of the barrel change was about the same accuracy you were experiencing. I had spent $250 on a new barrel, $50 for a smith to screw it on and check headspace, and had a 1MOA rifle...needless to say, i was disappointed. I went online and began reading articles on how to improve a barrel's accuracy. I discovered David Tubb's "final finish" kit. Although i had no borescope and no way of checking if there were any imperfections within the barrel that would cause the accuracy issues, i decided to roll the dice on it.

After applying the finish to my barrel, it was as though something clicked. My .75 to 1.5MOA rifle became a rifle that has shot groups as tight as .125" with loads it really likes. With load development, scatter nodes are in the 1.2-1.5 range, with accuracy nodes being in the 0.5" or smaller. The rifle though is now very consistently submoa...

Best of luck.

 

[BCP]

But I love the mws! I say "buy an OBR" because I know they can shoot. I had one, sold it (stupidly.) It shot very well. If I could make the MWS shoot I'd be in heaven.

Well, the way I look at it is:

1) your RL15 and varget + 175smk loads, particularly your 43 grain ones, seemed to be grouping MOA or a little better when you/the other guy did your part(s). So make a bunch of those and shoot the shit out of it.

2) send it back. There is an extremely picky dork on Calguns who owns one and his group pics range from just over 1/2 to just under 1 moa. So that makes me think that there are ones out there that can shoot quite well. That and the experience I've had with my semi 308 ARs makes me think that you could possibly have a lemon.

3) sell it and get (insert brand here). OBR, GAP10, they seem to get rave reviews in regards to accuracy.

 

[jbell]

I too like the MWS better than the OBR as far as looks and feel. If it isnt consistant with one of the loads we have tried send it to George, you will be happier...

 

[bm11]

Bm11,

My advise would be to send the AR to LMT...if the replaced barrel still shoots .8-1.5MOA, you haven't really lost anything. If it's consistent, then so much the better.

I'm gonna throw this out there, then tell you what I would do if the replaced barrel still shoots .8-1.5MOA.

I hope that your experience with the MWS, LMT's response re AR platform accuracy & Elfster's 30-round 5 shot groups tells you this...you don't gain much for spending 2-3 times on a name brand AR than going with a DPMS, Rockriver, or Armalite...not in reliability and especially not in accuracy...you can build an AR that would be more accurate off the lower end receivers than you can buy from most factory produced "high end" rifles. The high end rifles will generally have better QC and fancier finish, but every shop puts out the occasional lemons...especially ones that put out thousands of rifles every month.

One of my first 308ARs was a stock DPMS LR-308. I replaced the 24" bull barrel with a 20" HBAR in order to save weight and make it more handy for hunting. The result of the barrel change was about the same accuracy you were experiencing. I had spent $250 on a new barrel, $50 for a smith to screw it on and check headspace, and had a 1MOA rifle...needless to say, i was disappointed. I went online and began reading articles on how to improve a barrel's accuracy. I discovered David Tubb's "final finish" kit. Although i had no borescope and no way of checking if there were any imperfections within the barrel that would cause the accuracy issues, i decided to roll the dice on it.

After applying the finish to my barrel, it was as though something clicked. My .75 to 1.5MOA rifle became a rifle that has shot groups as tight as .125" with loads it really likes. With load development, scatter nodes are in the 1.2-1.5 range, with accuracy nodes being in the 0.5" or smaller. The rifle though is now very consistently submoa...
D
Best of luck.

I thought of that, and it is a great idea. With all the talk of "500 rounds before it starts shooting," it seems like it may very well benefit from a lapping compound!

 

[bm11]

Have you considered a kac?

Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah. I have a hard on for an ECC. I have a "mini ecc" right now, a SR-15 Mod 1 SBR (14.5")

It's just that the ecc has a chrome barrel and no accuracy guarantee. The EC's have had some excellent reports, but then it goes back to "settling." I have a hard time buying a lower end model when the higher end is avail. Like an AE vs AW. I just couldn't get the AE.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

ECC will shoot under 1MOA, no commercial SR-25 leaves the shop not shooting under 1" at 100yds.

Apparently Larue uses Tubbs Final Finish ammo on all of his guns (heard direct from DT while in Canadian Texas at his place shooting).

I've used it on a few guns -- 1 seemed to do well by it (an older EMC that was a near 1" gun became a solid 3/4 after), and then used it on another gun that was 3/4 shooting and did not see a difference (note I shoot factory ammo - M118LR most times and its erratic sometimes).

My guess based on what LMT told you, is that they are 1) swamped 2) unsure of your shooting) as I have never seen a MWS not provide solid groups with good ammo.
Larue is IIRC 14 months out on guns, and we (KAC) are about 10 months on 762 guns at the current demand.

I would try what you can with the LMT gun you have now, I don't see a quick solution anywhere.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Isnt one of the selling points of the MWS is the quicker barrel change system??? It would give me a good excuse to get a good smith to turn you up a new barrel in any caliber. Im partial to the 6 creed right now. Although that option is going to be another 5-700$

Another option is buy a high quality AR barrel and have it converted by DBMG(are they still in business?).

 

[BCP]

Isnt one of the selling points of the MWS is the quicker barrel change system??? It would give me a good excuse to get a good smith to turn you up a new barrel in any caliber. Im partial to the 6 creed right now. Although that option is going to be another 5-700$

Another option is buy a high quality AR barrel and have it converted by DBMG(are they still in business?).

Mmhmm and there are a few smiths out there that have done so.

If he has money out the wazoo he could just "send it to GAP" and have them make a barrel for it, then cut the steel barrel down to 16" open up the gas port and use that as more of a blaster/hunting/general use barrel. Talking a thousand bucks though.

I love thinking up solutions for other people that don't involve my money

 

[bm11]

Thanks Kevin!

Interesting turn of events here today. I spun my 16" chrome barrel on today, (I bought it to chop to 14", pin and weld a brake, and ball mill to lighten up.)

I wasn't expecting much, I saw how I performed for the guy I bought it from, and it shot like SHIT. But on my gun today, it HAMMERED. Consistent .7-1" 5 shot group performance, with a lot of the groups in the sub .5 range with one more opening the group up.

So, a couple of conclusions:

1: I don't need to buy an OBR. Don't even want to at this point.

2: It's not the shooter. I haven't done anything different and I don't feel like a better feel for the gun has me shooting better.

3: it's definitely the barrel. I have called LMT and left a message. I'm hoping they will take care of me. I paid a premium for the "match grade stainless" barrel and its ass is getting kicked by the chrome lined base model barrel.

4: I am glad I didn't give up on this gun. Hindsight is 20/20 and I wish I didn't burn 328 rounds chasing accuracy on a barrel I was pretty confident was the issue all along.

5: If LMT takes care of me, and the new barrel comes back and outshoots this chrome barrel, I will be happy as a pig in shit. If they don't... well at least I have a rifle that shoots well. In the case they won't replace this barrel, I'll probably still ship it to GAP to have them reuse the extension and gas block, make me a "GAP grade" barrel, and then I'll use this barrel as a SBR barrel, as originally planned.

6: Thanks to all who have followed and who have offered input. It is much appreciated. I'll continue to keep you in the loop!

7: It looks bad ass in a 16", doesn't it? ( pic from today.) It needs a more reasonable scope though!

-Bob

 

[EricCartmann]

So Gene is basically everything I have been saying all along. HMmmmmmmmm

 

[pmclaine]

If they will credit you for the stainless steel barrel I'd buy some accessories and just go with the CL. I dont think you will significantly improve over what you are now getting with the CL.

 

[bm11]

If they will credit you for the stainless steel barrel I'd buy some accessories and just go with the CL. I dont think you will significantly improve over what you are now getting with the CL.

Well, if they replace it with a stainless that shoots equal to or better than my chrome barrel, I will go with my original plan of cutting the stainless to 18", threading it m18x1.5 for my SAS Ti Arbiter, and cut my chrome barrel to 14", ball milling it, and pinning on the surefire brake to bring the OAL to 16".

That way I'll be able to benefit from the "Modular" aspect of my "Modular Weapon System."

 

[ralfabco]

Thanks Kevin!

Interesting turn of events here today. I spun my 16" chrome barrel on today, (I bought it to chop to 14", pin and weld a brake, and ball mill to lighten up.)

I wasn't expecting much, I saw how I performed for the guy I bought it from, and it shot like SHIT. But on my gun today, it HAMMERED. Consistent .7-1" 5 shot group performance, with a lot of the groups in the sub .5 range with one more opening the group up.

So, a couple of conclusions:

1: I don't need to buy an OBR. Don't even want to at this point.

2: It's not the shooter. I haven't done anything different and I don't feel like a better feel for the gun has me shooting better.

3: it's definitely the barrel. I have called LMT and left a message. I'm hoping they will take care of me. I paid a premium for the "match grade stainless" barrel and its ass is getting kicked by the chrome lined base model barrel.

4: I am glad I didn't give up on this gun. Hindsight is 20/20 and I wish I didn't burn 328 rounds chasing accuracy on a barrel I was pretty confident was the issue all along.

5: If LMT takes care of me, and the new barrel comes back and outshoots this chrome barrel, I will be happy as a pig in shit. If they don't... well at least I have a rifle that shoots well. In the case they won't replace this barrel, I'll probably still ship it to GAP to have them reuse the extension and gas block, make me a "GAP grade" barrel, and then I'll use this barrel as a SBR barrel, as originally planned.

6: Thanks to all who have followed and who have offered input. It is much appreciated. I'll continue to keep you in the loop!

7: It looks bad ass in a 16", doesn't it? ( pic from today.) It needs a more reasonable scope though!

-Bob

Bob,

I am really glad it worked out. I have followed your threads. The scope looks like krap.

Ralph

 

[bm11]

Bob,

I am really glad it worked out. I have followed your threads. The scope looks like krap.

Ralph

Actually it does look rather ridiculous, doesn't it? Huge!

Scope has been places and seen some use since I bought it from you. Pretty cool, but it was one of only two or three scopes in our ELR class at Gunsite that tracked 100.0% perfectly in the mechanical tracking test we did.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

I'd take the 20" barrel and scrub the crap out of it with JB Bore Paste and try a few more rounds.
Sometimes all it is, is a small burr on the gas port that can cause issues.

 

[bm11]

I'd take the 20" barrel and scrub the crap out of it with JB Bore Paste and try a few more rounds.
Sometimes all it is, is a small burr on the gas port that can cause issues.

Or maybe hit it with some of Dave's bullets. It's on a UPS truck headed back to LMT, after seeing the 16" chrome barrel kick its ass this morning, I shipped it back. I sincerely hope they go above and beyond and take care of me.

 

[jbell]

Bob, it does look nice with the 16". I cant wait to see it shoot now! But one problem, it looks like you have weak ejection. But that may be from the under powered 22lr you are shooting out of a 308...

 

[bm11]

Bob, it does look nice with the 16". I cant wait to see it shoot now! But one problem, it looks like you have weak ejection. But that may be from the under powered 22lr you are shooting out of a 308...

Only shooting at 100y, and the gun groups best with "light loads."

 

[m1ajunkie]

If I was you, I'd just stick with the 16" as is. I ran a 20" .308 SS barrel on mine for a while but it did pretty much nothing I couldn't do with my 16" SS barrel.

Now the 20" .308 has been replaced with the 20" 6.5CM barrel and that is something I can actually tell a difference in. I don't know what kind of distances you are planning to shoot, but I doubt it's anything that 16" couldn't handle.

 

[bm11]

If I was you, I'd just stick with the 16" as is. I ran a 20" .308 SS barrel on mine for a while but it did pretty much nothing I couldn't do with my 16" SS barrel.

Now the 20" .308 has been replaced with the 20" 6.5CM barrel and that is something I can actually tell a difference in. I don't know what kind of distances you are planning to shoot, but I doubt it's anything that 16" couldn't handle.

The 20" is getting cut back and threaded 18x1.5 for my can. So it is, in fact, doing something the 16" can't do- getting rethreaded 18x1.5 without requiring a SBR tax stamp.

 

[elfster1234]

bm11 !!! that's awesome! im so glad this worked out for you! those LMT CL barrels are amazing aren't they!? love the look also. Just in time for the round2 shoot out and for you to kick my ass on the boards! very nice.


finally, I don't need to listen to you bitch anymore! LOL, totally kidding with you.

Thanks Kevin!

Interesting turn of events here today. I spun my 16" chrome barrel on today, (I bought it to chop to 14", pin and weld a brake, and ball mill to lighten up.)

I wasn't expecting much, I saw how I performed for the guy I bought it from, and it shot like SHIT. But on my gun today, it HAMMERED. Consistent .7-1" 5 shot group performance, with a lot of the groups in the sub .5 range with one more opening the group up.

So, a couple of conclusions:

1: I don't need to buy an OBR. Don't even want to at this point.

2: It's not the shooter. I haven't done anything different and I don't feel like a better feel for the gun has me shooting better.

3: it's definitely the barrel. I have called LMT and left a message. I'm hoping they will take care of me. I paid a premium for the "match grade stainless" barrel and its ass is getting kicked by the chrome lined base model barrel.

4: I am glad I didn't give up on this gun. Hindsight is 20/20 and I wish I didn't burn 328 rounds chasing accuracy on a barrel I was pretty confident was the issue all along.

5: If LMT takes care of me, and the new barrel comes back and outshoots this chrome barrel, I will be happy as a pig in shit. If they don't... well at least I have a rifle that shoots well. In the case they won't replace this barrel, I'll probably still ship it to GAP to have them reuse the extension and gas block, make me a "GAP grade" barrel, and then I'll use this barrel as a SBR barrel, as originally planned.

6: Thanks to all who have followed and who have offered input. It is much appreciated. I'll continue to keep you in the loop!

7: It looks bad ass in a 16", doesn't it? ( pic from today.) It needs a more reasonable scope though!

-Bob

 

[elfster1234]

btw, where are the target pics??

 

[m1ajunkie]

The 20" is getting cut back and threaded 18x1.5 for my can. So it is, in fact, doing something the 16" can't do- getting rethreaded 18x1.5 without requiring a SBR tax stamp.

Not a bad plan. I'm sure lmt will take care of you, I've always had good dealings with them.

Who are you gonna get to cut the barrel?

 

[rjacobs]

Good to see you are at least getting somewhere with this gun and narrowing down what the issues could be.

My 16" CL MWS is a hammer. 1/2 MOA when I do my part with good ammo.

I couldnt justify the +$600(or whatever it was at the time) stainless barrel after doing all the research and people saying at best you might get a 1/2 MOA better with it vs. the CL since their CL barrels are so good. After shooting my gun a lot and getting 1/2 MOA(best was a .4 5 shot group) I am glad I didnt pony for the stainless barrel. Maybe when I shoot this one out. Still need to invest in the Giesselle trigger since the stock trigger crap and is what I blame half the time I have a flier.