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LMT worth the extra 1k?

Raivkka

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 10, 2012
78
3
60
New Hampshire
So, I have been cruising the LGS looking for a decent 308/7.62 AR style rifle in the $1500'ish range.
I was pretty set on the Ruger SR762 as I like Ruger products, they are overbuilt and last.
I saw the Sig 716, the ruger, an M&P, some other brands but wasn't really sold on any of them for one reason or another.
Some seemed cheaply built, had poor balance, ect.

Then I stumbled on a LMT that retailed for 2600.00, this rifle really was the cat's meow.
Something about it really struck me as a quality weapon but is it really worth 1k more than the Ruger?
Or, for that matter, 1k more than any weapon in the 15-1600 dollar range.
 
I recently made a similar choice, but in 5.56. As always, value can only be determined by the purchaser. It's a basic principle of economics, and probably not too helpful with your decision (sorry for that)... Me? I ended up purchasing the LMT, but I shopped until I found a smokin' deal. YMMV greatly.
 
Go to Elfsters 100 yard challenge and see what different AR's do performance wise. Take you time figure out what us of value to you and choose accordingly. What are you goals to accomplish with this rifle?

I have an MWS and love it. I didn't buy it for the switch barrel capability but I like the take down option for maintenance. I am a consistent 1.5 inch shooter with my 16 inch CL using mixed reman 168 grn ammo. Others with more skill do considerably better. I hope to improve once I start loading for it.

My reasons for LMT

1. Proven performance
2. Less money than the next alternative - KAC
3. I like the fact the gun had mil contracts not for the reason I want to be like a Brit designated rifleman but it tells me LMT is going to be sticking around and parts should be available
4. Other than the barrel change capability there are no gimmicks. It's direct impingement. It's been around, its proven.
5. For me a good compromise between a SCAR 17 and something like a GAP 10 or JP .308. Not all battle rifle and not all thouroughbred.
 
I thought the same thing when I used my buddy's LMT MWS. It really is a great little carbine. The Ruger does offer a lot for the money and I was tempted by it too but I'm not totally sold on their gas piston system and to me the ruger is a 2000+ dollar rifle simply because 1) tax 2) FFL fees 3) I would HAVE to replace that SHITTY stock and trigger that it comes with. Giessele, Magpul ctr, there goes another 300 bucks. The LMT trigger and stock I could live with right out of the box.
 
Owning both; neither is a bad choice.

For me, the Ruger is more of a general purpose, run-gun rifle. Weight isn't too bad.

The LMT trends toward the DMR. Mainly cause it's a PIG of a rifle with scope, mag, bipod, etc.
 
Accuracy challenges are not so much a testament of the rifle but more of the shooter. The LMT is a great rifle, I think the extra $1,500 gets you the quick change barrel. If that is a valued requirement then all means go for it. Inning sold on piston guns but many are, it appears Ruger has the bugs worked out of their rifle but I would make sure it is a current production rifle because the early ones would not run using the 3rd Gen PMags. Me, no one makes exactly what I want so I would build if I were to do it over again, get exactly what you want. If you use quality parts you give up nothing to a factory built rifle...
 
What I really loved about the LMT was it's dementionality, balance and point-ability. When I shoulder the weapon and swing it around it handles really well.
For me, nothing needs to be altered from it's stock configuration.

The LMT is a bit of a porker though. The Ruger is quite a bit lighter but doesn't handle as well.
I think I have pretty much talked myself into the LMT. Price is $2500.00, that decent? No tax in New Hampshire!
 
LMT is a proven platform, Heavy but proven. I would not buy a Non LM8 MWS unless it was a total steal of a price.

I would chose a scar 17 before the MWS but thats just personal opinion. If you need a AR pattern gun, for the same price or a little more you can get a GAP or JP. $2600 gets you a SCAR17

You could also do a CMMG MK3 CBR and stick a high quality tube on it, and come out less than the MWS. CBR has ACS stock, keymod rail, SSA trigger and Surefire Break. Hard to beat for the $$
 
In terms of your 1500 or less options in 308 ar..... Id give rock river a look. Only downfall is the mags


So, I have been cruising the LGS looking for a decent 308/7.62 AR style rifle in the $1500'ish range.
I was pretty set on the Ruger SR762 as I like Ruger products, they are overbuilt and last.
I saw the Sig 716, the ruger, an M&P, some other brands but wasn't really sold on any of them for one reason or another.
Some seemed cheaply built, had poor balance, ect.

Then I stumbled on a LMT that retailed for 2600.00, this rifle really was the cat's meow.
Something about it really struck me as a quality weapon but is it really worth 1k more than the Ruger?
Or, for that matter, 1k more than any weapon in the 15-1600 dollar range.
 
Cobra,
The weapons I was really interested in were the CMMG, DPMS G2 Hunter, and Bison Arms but shops do not have any in stock to look at.
For my next purchase I will only buy something I can look at.
 
sorry, but I think you're wrong.

put it this way... at 100yards, the 6group, 5shot each shootout actually gives a really good idea if a rifle is worth a shit IMO. the whole wind and mirage factor is very little at 100yards... it is when you get well past 100yards that wind and mirage really starts to push the skill of the shooter.... IMO, the 100yard 6group 5shot each shootout is the best your're going to find on the net for giving a person a solid idea if a rifle is worth a shit..... the rifle and ammo used at 100yards is much much more important at 100yard shooting than the shooter.. I've always said at 100yard, it is 40% rifle, 20% ammo, and 40% shooter..... the more you increase the yardage, the more the importance of the shooter% increases.... while the shooter at 100yard does play a factor, it is kinds hard to fuck up a shot at 100yards when you're using a sand bag and a bipod, well, at least it should give you a solid idea if a rifle has the potential to be a sub-moa shooter or not... mirage and wind (the two main factors above and beyond the obvious gravity factor) is very little at 100yards.

put it this way... I took my girlfriend to the range two weeks ago to shoot a REAL rifle for the first time (she only shot a .22lr a couple times as a kid with her father type of thing many many years ago). I gave her some pointers on how to use the rear sand bag, cheek weld blah blah, don't move your view from scope once you take your shots, keep an eye on scope shadow, how to pull the trigger, cut the round circle into 4 perfect pcs of pie with the crosshairs, blah blah blah blah. We both used the SAME rfile that day with the same RELOADS that I made personally from brass previously shot out of the same rifle with a .003 bump on the shoulder... to show how important a good rifle with good reloads is at 100yards = these pictures tell it all..... yes, the 100yard shootout thread (not the 300yard) does prove IMO if a rifle is worth a shit or not... she got 4 out 6 groups sub-moa,,,,, I also got 4 out of 6 groups sub-moa and my average was just a tad bit better than her average BUT not by much... now with that said, I think my GF is a talented shooter, but the rifle used WITH my reloads tells a good story in these pictures.

Mind you, she actually got a much much better score as a first time shooter than other people's entries that I would consider "better / experienced shooters" with much more expensive LMT's, GAP's, and OBR's... Knowing which rifles with the correct reloads produce good groups is cash money IMO.. Just another reason why I'm a HUGE fan of rock river rifles with good reloads. My GF is currently in the top ten of the current shootout thread FYI.. Is she that good of a shooter? or is it more the rifle and the reloads? just a little logic goes a long ways when it comes to 100yard shooting. Don't get me wrong, I think she is talented, BUT she would never do this with a dpms oracle and factory ammo with a red dot.

my GF's shootout entry:
IMG_20140408_165931_zps27173ff6.jpg

IMG_8864_zps8f330511.jpg


my shootout entry done the very same day with the same rifle and reloads:
IMG_8861_zpsc3d9dbbe.jpg









Accuracy challenges are not so much a testament of the rifle but more of the shooter. The LMT is a great rifle, I think the extra $1,500 gets you the quick change barrel. If that is a valued requirement then all means go for it. Inning sold on piston guns but many are, it appears Ruger has the bugs worked out of their rifle but I would make sure it is a current production rifle because the early ones would not run using the 3rd Gen PMags. Me, no one makes exactly what I want so I would build if I were to do it over again, get exactly what you want. If you use quality parts you give up nothing to a factory built rifle...
 
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What I really loved about the LMT was it's dementionality, balance and point-ability. When I shoulder the weapon and swing it around it handles really well.
For me, nothing needs to be altered from it's stock configuration.

The LMT is a bit of a porker though. The Ruger is quite a bit lighter but doesn't handle as well.
I think I have pretty much talked myself into the LMT. Price is $2500.00, that decent? No tax in New Hampshire!

When they first came out they were 2200 for the chrome lined, then the price went up. 2500 is the going rate I would say. Here in California they are asking 2899 ugh.
 
RRA is known crap. They aren't built correctly and have issues. There is a reason NOBODY uses them , other than that bullshit DEA botched procurement years ago.

The new DPMS G2 looks interesting, but its still a DPMS. Its a crap shoot. You might get lucky , you might not. DPMS does their large frame guns better than their small frames, but they are a mass produced, low quality material, and low quality control company. That is why they are priced where they are.

CMMG is interesting. They have some known issues, mainly their 2 stage trigger and their barrels aren't the greatest. The CBR comes with a SSA (which fixes that problem) but the barrel is nothing special. Its servicable, just dont expect to shoot small groups with it regularly. Its a very good value for the price and adding a known barrel on it will turn it into a steal at the $2000-$2300 mark with barrel.

Don't know anything about Bison. Lots of new companies popping up, who knows who will still be around in 5-10-20 years or where they source their parts. Small companies are buying parts from large manufactures.

For shooting at dirt or for plinking and fun, get whatever tickles your fancy.

If you want something for serious work or for heavy usage, Stick with known quantities like the MWS, SCAR17, GAP10, KAC, and a few others.

Armalite makes a good value gun in the middle of the range. They are known for being accurate but who knows how they hold up to heavy and hard abuse.

You need to identify what your needs/goals are, what features you value and then try to find a product that fits that. Or just buy the parts and build it yourself.
 
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CMMG is interesting. They have some known issues, mainly their 2 stage trigger and their barrels aren't the greatest. The CBR comes with a SSA (which fixes that problem) but the barrel is nothing special. Its servicable, just dont expect to shoot small groups with it regularly. Its a very good value for the price and adding a known barrel on it will turn it into a steal at the $2000-$2300 mark with barrel.

I owned one of the first .308 rifles CMMG offered through CDNN a few years back and had a few issues with mine. The charging handle latch on the upper wore down to the point where it wouldn't retain the charging handle (~1500 round count). CMMG replaced the upper and said the likely culprit was improper heat treatment. The bolt catch on the rifle broke 2 or 3 times - average was around 400 rounds between failures. Firing pin retainer broke in the first 100 rounds. Firing pin deformed to the point that CMMG replaced it when I sent the upper in for replacement - that was one was blamed on the Geissele trigger that was installed. I understand I'm one data point among thousands (and an early one at that), but there it is.
 
Good to know, I haven't heard to many bad reports of them over the years. Used to own two, now I only have one, a CDNN special from a few years ago. The one with a SS barrel and older FF rail. Besides the shitty trigger, and Meh Barrel, its been reliable thus far.

I don't think they sell enough rifles to really get a good grasp on how they fare with heavy and prolonged use. If you can afford to put 5K .308 through a rifle, you can afford a better AR/10 or .308 Semi.
 
I have two LMT MRP uppers, one carbine and one rifle length, that I still enjoy tremendously. Beautifully made uppers down to the details of ensuring a rock solid fit with other lowers by having two small bumps in the magwell area of the mating surface. LMT knows how to design, machine and maintain excellent quality.

However, in 308 I went with the SCAR17 because I felt let down by the barrel changing promise of the MRP. Theoretically a great idea but practically somewhat useless if complete barrel assemblies are constantly back ordered and Karl decides not to sell his proprietary extension separately.

Since I wanted the gas tube retention feature of the LMT extension I resorted to buying barrels from gunbroker just to take the extension off for custom projects. Like a 5.45x39 piston barrel that is a breeze to clean after using cheap, corrosive ammo (the only way to avoid going broke on my nephew's shooting addiction). Or a 300AAC carbine barrel with integral Form1 can that only set me back one stamp and a few hours on the lathe.

I hope that LMT does not make the same marketing mistake with the MWS but either teams up with a custom barrel shop or sells the extension for reasonable money to Joe Average.

The other reason for not going with LMT in 308 was the high price and the weight of the MWS.
 
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While I cannot speak with much experience with the other rifles listed, I can tell you my thoughts on LMT. Every AR style rifle I own is a LMT. I had some of the other brands over the years but went with LMT, solely, about 6 or 7 years ago and never looked back.

When I started looking for a 7.62 rifle, I looked at the RRA, but stuck with the LMT brand. I am completely satisfied. My MWS shoots less than 1 MOA with 175 grain FGMM, no issues. If I do my job, .6 MOA is not an issue.

Like mentioned above by a lot of the members, the barrel interchangeability is nice, but I did not buy it for that and the rifle is a real tank. I have the full quad rail upper and with my USOptics scope, rings and bipod, she tips the scale at near 13 LBS.

My latest LMT is the LM8MRP in 5.56 and if I were to buy another 7.62, it would be the smooth side upper style.

You will not go wrong with this rifle. IMO, KAC quality at near half the price.

77

Group a few months ago, 7.62 175grain FGMM


My current set up has a Harris/Larue combo bipod, the Atlas is on another rifle
 
I have two LMT MRP uppers, one carbine and one rifle length, that I still enjoy tremendously. Beautifully made uppers down to the details of ensuring a rock solid fit with other lowers by having two small bumps in the magwell area of the mating surface. LMT knows how to design, machine and maintain excellent quality.

However, in 308 I went with the SCAR17 because I felt let down by the barrel changing promise of the MRP. Theoretically a great idea but practically somewhat useless if complete barrel assemblies are constantly back ordered and Karl decides not to sell his proprietary extension separately.

Since I wanted the gas tube retention feature of the LMT extension I resorted to buying barrels from gunbroker just to take the extension off for custom projects. Like a 5.45x39 piston barrel that is a breeze to clean after using cheap, corrosive ammo (the only way to avoid going broke on my nephew's shooting addiction). Or a 300AAC carbine barrel with integral Form1 can that only set me back one stamp and a few hours on the lathe.

I hope that LMT does not make the same marketing mistake with the MWS but either teams up with a custom barrel shop or sells the extension for reasonable money to Joe Average.

You can use any barrel in an LMT MRP if you send it here for modification. Just some food for thought from one LMT owner to another as I know barrel availability through them can be frustrating at times.

MRP barrel conversion
 
To the OP, only you can determine if it is worth it two you. LMT's keep their value well, the company has been around for long enough now that I can comfortably say they will be around a number of years from now when others may find the market may be over-saturated with everyone pumping out their own parts. I will say that if you do go the LMT route, shop around as you can find a good deal on them from time to time.
 
Had the LMT and loved the reliability and accuracy but for my use it was just too heavy and didn't balance right so I sold it. Didn't think I would find another 308 AR that would tempt me until I stumbled on the M&P-10. The weight is light for a 308 with good balance and feel. Accuracy has been good but to be honest have been struggling with short stroking with everything I have put through it. Opened up the gas port a little and now that problem seems to be solved. For the price, I am very happy with it so far.
 
RRA is known crap. They aren't built correctly and have issues. There is a reason NOBODY uses them , other than that bullshit DEA botched procurement years ago.

The new DPMS G2 looks interesting, but its still a DPMS. Its a crap shoot. You might get lucky , you might not. DPMS does their large frame guns better than their small frames, but they are a mass produced, low quality material, and low quality control company. That is why they are priced where they are.

CMMG is interesting. They have some known issues, mainly their 2 stage trigger and their barrels aren't the greatest. The CBR comes with a SSA (which fixes that problem) but the barrel is nothing special. Its servicable, just dont expect to shoot small groups with it regularly. Its a very good value for the price and adding a known barrel on it will turn it into a steal at the $2000-$2300 mark with barrel.

If you want something for serious work or for heavy usage, Stick with known quantities like the MWS, SCAR17, GAP10, KAC, and a few others.

Armalite makes a good value gun in the middle of the range. They are known for being accurate but who knows how they hold up to heavy and hard abuse.

You need to identify what your needs/goals are, what features you value and then try to find a product that fits that. Or just buy the parts and build it yourself.

The DPMS G2 is actually a forged lower, matched with a forged upper. So, it's not quite a crap shoot anymore. You //will// get "lucky".

Then to make it shoot Jesus juice, you could just swap the LPK for Knight's since, they're God's gift to humanity...

Armalite has really picked up their game lately with the SASS...Especially with the AR10-A. -- Very good rifles, Lothar Walther barrels...

I have the AR10-B SASS with some mods and it's definitely a shooter.

While PoF's are a little finicky, they're definitely shooters. JP's are very nice...GAP also puts out a great product.

My ultimate suggestion would be to build it yourself. Quality forged upper/lower...Barrel...KAC LPK (BEST LPK EVER)...Your choice of stock...I'd suggest the DPMS pattern because MOST manufacturers have barrels ready to go...

With practically any of the above, the rifle is going to out-shoot you, regardless so...The onus is on you, the shooter more-so than the rifle.
 
The DPMS G2 is actually a forged lower, matched with a forged upper. So, it's not quite a crap shoot anymore. You //will// get "lucky".

Then to make it shoot Jesus juice, you could just swap the LPK for Knight's since, they're God's gift to humanity...

Armalite has really picked up their game lately with the SASS...Especially with the AR10-A. -- Very good rifles, Lothar Walther barrels...

I have the AR10-B SASS with some mods and it's definitely a shooter.

While PoF's are a little finicky, they're definitely shooters. JP's are very nice...GAP also puts out a great product.

My ultimate suggestion would be to build it yourself. Quality forged upper/lower...Barrel...KAC LPK (BEST LPK EVER)...Your choice of stock...I'd suggest the DPMS pattern because MOST manufacturers have barrels ready to go...

With practically any of the above, the rifle is going to out-shoot you, regardless so...The onus is on you, the shooter more-so than the rifle.

Once again waving your dick, following me around, trying to start shit and giving shitty advice.

WHERE DID I SAY DPMS WAS NOT FORGED? WHERE? Its not a piece of shit beacuse its forged or billet (or even cast), its not reliable beacuse its a DPMS. A company with a HUGE history of putting out shitty products that should have never left the factory had decent QC been done.

Who is talking about KAC in here? Why your dragging shit from another thread in here?

ARMALITE is amazing and you coincidently own one............who didn't see that coming. They are so amazing that people just don't buy them, even at their low price point.


All you are doing is following around and stiring shit, with your lack of knowledge and experince. So do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up.
 
Had the LMT and loved the reliability and accuracy but for my use it was just too heavy and didn't balance right so I sold it. Didn't think I would find another 308 AR that would tempt me until I stumbled on the M&P-10. The weight is light for a 308 with good balance and feel. Accuracy has been good but to be honest have been struggling with short stroking with everything I have put through it. Opened up the gas port a little and now that problem seems to be solved. For the price, I am very happy with it so far.

Quick question about your MWS. Did you have reliability issues when running full power (M80 or equiv or full power match loadings) or when running weaker underpowered stuff like most the economy ammo and steel cased?

Some of the more rugged duty guns will be slightly undergassed to run full power loads, to keep wear/tear, recoil down, and shoot softer over the life cycle of the weapon. The penalty for this is sometimes not being relibale with underpowered ammo.

Sounds like that was the case or you may have just had an underdrilled gas port.
 
Had the LMT and loved the reliability and accuracy but for my use it was just too heavy and didn't balance right so I sold it. Didn't think I would find another 308 AR that would tempt me until I stumbled on the M&P-10. The weight is light for a 308 with good balance and feel. Accuracy has been good but to be honest have been struggling with short stroking with everything I have put through it. Opened up the gas port a little and now that problem seems to be solved. For the price, I am very happy with it so far.

Quick question about your MWS. Did you have reliability issues when running full power (M80 or equiv or full power match loadings) or when running weaker underpowered stuff like most the economy ammo and steel cased?

Some of the more rugged duty guns will be slightly undergassed to run full power loads, to keep wear/tear, recoil down, and shoot softer over the life cycle of the weapon. The penalty for this is sometimes not being relibale with underpowered ammo.

Sounds like that was the case or you may have just had an underdrilled gas port.
 
Once again waving your dick, following me around, trying to start shit and giving shitty advice.

WHERE DID I SAY DPMS WAS NOT FORGED? WHERE? Its not a piece of shit beacuse its forged or billet (or even cast), its not reliable beacuse its a DPMS. A company with a HUGE history of putting out shitty products that should have never left the factory had decent QC been done.

Who is talking about KAC in here? Why your dragging shit from another thread in here?

ARMALITE is amazing and you coincidently own one............who didn't see that coming. They are so amazing that people just don't buy them, even at their low price point.


All you are doing is following around and stiring shit, with your lack of knowledge and experince. So do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up.

You said this:

DPMS does their large frame guns better than their small frames, but they are a mass produced, low quality material, and low quality control company. That is why they are priced where they are.

Which, is actually bullshit.

Do I think DPMS is the best on the market? No...But, all of the large frame uppers/lowers are all based on the same patterns...Forged with the same materials...At this point in the commercial industry, you're picking a name. A stripped upper/lower when forged, considering they're //all// the same pattern, you're literally just paying for a name...Is a name worth $1k?

The OP could literally go on the "interwebs" right now, buy a DPMS Upper/Lower (Forged 7075)...Bartlein barrel...Magpul stock of his choosing...a Colt LPK...KAC rail...JP BCG...JP spring...(Or, if he wants it to shoot Jesus juice, clearly the KAC LPK/Rail is the way to go...He still saves a large sum of money though, just sayin.)

He'd save himself over a $1k and have a rifle that's on-par with the rest and would arguably outshoot us all, yourself included.

The rifle would be of the same quality as the LMT...Without Lewis Machine & Tool stamped on the side.

Does he lose resale because it's a DPMS upper/lower? Maybe a little but, the savings alone means he can buy more ammo.

I can only relate my experience to what I own and have shot. I don't feel the LMT is worth the $1k difference...I would say the same about an Armalite if it were priced there...Remember, you're the one that said they're reasonably priced to which, I absolutely concur.

You need to chill out bro. Seriously.
 
I own an LMT MWS and if I had to do it over again I would have spent the extra $$$ and gotten a JP or a GAP. Mine is a 16" CL that came from LMT out of the box shooting patterns not groups. When I called LMT the tech told me it could not have left LMT that way as they are tested for accuracy and said the dealer must have messed with it. I told him I was at the store when UPS delivered it and we opened it together so there was no dealer messing with it. He stammered a bit then asked me to please re-torque the barrel as they may not have torqued it properly. Which I did and the MWS now shoots about 1 moa. It may have been the exception rather than the rule but I lost faith in LMT especially since they tried to pass off the blame on my dealer.
 
You said this:



Which, is actually bullshit.

Do I think DPMS is the best on the market? No...But, all of the large frame uppers/lowers are all based on the same patterns...Forged with the same materials...At this point in the commercial industry, you're picking a name. A stripped upper/lower when forged, considering they're //all// the same pattern, you're literally just paying for a name...Is a name worth $1k?

The OP could literally go on the "interwebs" right now, buy a DPMS Upper/Lower (Forged 7075)...Bartlein barrel...Magpul stock of his choosing...a Colt LPK...KAC rail...JP BCG...JP spring...(Or, if he wants it to shoot Jesus juice, clearly the KAC LPK/Rail is the way to go...He still saves a large sum of money though, just sayin.)

He'd save himself over a $1k and have a rifle that's on-par with the rest and would arguably outshoot us all, yourself included.

The rifle would be of the same quality as the LMT...Without Lewis Machine & Tool stamped on the side.

Does he lose resale because it's a DPMS upper/lower? Maybe a little but, the savings alone means he can buy more ammo.

I can only relate my experience to what I own and have shot. I don't feel the LMT is worth the $1k difference...I would say the same about an Armalite if it were priced there...Remember, you're the one that said they're reasonably priced to which, I absolutely concur.

You need to chill out bro. Seriously.

Prove its bullshit then.

If it was that simple than everyone would be building parts guns.

Companies like JP, GAP, LARUE, KAC, and LMT wouldnt have long ass wait lists for their products, if you could get the same thing for half the price.

All the materials aren't the same. They aren't from all the same sources, they aren't machined to the same design/tollerances, they don't have the same level of QC/expertise.

BCM buys (or bought) their uppers/lowers from a large forge/manufacture. It was reported that they sent as much as 60% of each batch back , each time beacuse they did not meet the specs. As a result, they now have a machine shop do make them that they have better control over. As as a result, BCM now makes the best Forged AR-15 uppers you can buy. They are Squared and have very tight tollerence control. Do I need to explain why this is prederable to buying some bargin bin upper. You pretend like all Forged 7075 uppers are the same, when they aren't. Ones that are rejected by one company are commonly used to to manufacture lesser quality and price point guns. Same goes for just about all other commodity type parts for these guns. Colt does this with their FCG parts and that is one of the reasons they are known for having some of the best FCG's money can buy. Same with their Carriers and Bolts and the rest of the commodity parts that make up the gun.

You have got to be one stupid mother fucker to claim a DPMS or rando parts gun is the same quality and reliability as a MWS or other top tier gun. Its possible that while using top end parts, and the build knowledge from someone with experince, to build a quality gun. You aren't building a MWS though, in fact, you can't.


You are making wild ass claims and assumtions with ZERO proof or facts. You are just ignorant to the histories and people actualy running these products over the years. Thats cool, but stop pretending like you know something when you clearly don't.

It might not be worth the differnence to you, beacuse you either don't value what you can't see(or don't know to look for), don't understand it or you don't need it. What you value is very different from what the market values.
 
I own an LMT MWS and if I had to do it over again I would have spent the extra $$$ and gotten a JP or a GAP. Mine is a 16" CL that came from LMT out of the box shooting patterns not groups. When I called LMT the tech told me it could not have left LMT that way as they are tested for accuracy and said the dealer must have messed with it. I told him I was at the store when UPS delivered it and we opened it together so there was no dealer messing with it. He stammered a bit then asked me to please re-torque the barrel as they may not have torqued it properly. Which I did and the MWS now shoots about 1 moa. It may have been the exception rather than the rule but I lost faith in LMT especially since they tried to pass off the blame on my dealer.

When you have a QC barrel like the MWS has, you are making some sacrifices in reliability potenial, accuracy potenial and maintance. Ensuring that the torque settings on a Quick change barrel are correct is hardly a huge blunder. It is the FIRST thing I would have checked on my own , after figuring out it wasnt the ammo, optics, or mount. Its a user level issue. Consitant 1 MOA for a CL AR10 is pretty damn good all things considered.

Ive gotten the same Lines from companies like HK and Colt before. Most of the people who work in CS and tech support are fucking dicks. Had a Hk45 ship without sights from the factory and they wanted to argue how this would never happen. Long story short, they sent me new sites within the week. They don't want to badmouth their companies products or admit fault if they don't have to. They also get a bunch of whiney cunts calling up complaining about stupid or pointless shit, so I can imagine they are pretty skeptical. Personaly, I think its Unacceptable CS in any industry, but it is common in more than a few of the gun companies.
 
When you have a QC barrel like the MWS has, you are making some sacrifices in reliability potenial, accuracy potenial and maintance. Ensuring that the torque settings on a Quick change barrel are correct is hardly a huge blunder. It is the FIRST thing I would have checked on my own , after figuring out it wasnt the ammo, optics, or mount. Its a user level issue. Consitant 1 MOA for a CL AR10 is pretty damn good all things considered.

Ive gotten the same Lines from companies like HK and Colt before. Most of the people who work in CS and tech support are fucking dicks. Had a Hk45 ship without sights from the factory and they wanted to argue how this would never happen. Long story short, they sent me new sites within the week. They don't want to badmouth their companies products or admit fault if they don't have to. They also get a bunch of whiney cunts calling up complaining about stupid or pointless shit, so I can imagine they are pretty skeptical. Personaly, I think its Unacceptable CS in any industry, but it is common in more than a few of the gun companies.

I knew it wasn't the optics (NF NXS 5.5-22X50 ZS, HST NP-R1 reticle) or the mount (ADM Recon-S) both of which had been taken off another 308 semi when I got the MWS and had been spot on. I was using FGMM 168 grain for group testing so I discounted the ammunition. Having also in my collection an LMT MRP CQB it never dawned on me the they would have not torqued the barrel correctly as my CQB MRP was a very accurate carbine from the get go. I kew the barrel torquing was a factor which is why I called LMT form the range that day. I didn't want to torque the barrel with the crappy torque wrench LMT supplied until I spoke to them to ascertain the possible problem. I torqued it when I got home with my Borka torque wrench.
I had only talked with one factory with a problem with a weapon. That was Ruger on an SR 556. The conversation was completely different. They immediately told me they would send me a call tag to return it. I had it back in 2 1/2 weeks fixed. I guess that's why I was so disappointed with LMT.

I was just wondering what is your opinion of the HK MR762 and MR556 other than they are over priced which I agree with? I'd rather hear an unvarnished opinion rather then opinions from the fan boys on the HK site.
 
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Ok I don't see anything about an S&W MP10 are they worth considering ?

My buddy who is a very picky person when it comes to his weapons has an S&W MP 10 and really likes it. He is said the accuracy was quite good (but never gave me any specifics) and it performs flawlessly. Based on his life long possession and expertise with every thing from 22's to Class III weapons I would consider it if i was looking for another semi 308.
 
Quick question about your MWS. Did you have reliability issues when running full power (M80 or equiv or full power match loadings) or when running weaker underpowered stuff like most the economy ammo and steel cased?

Some of the more rugged duty guns will be slightly undergassed to run full power loads, to keep wear/tear, recoil down, and shoot softer over the life cycle of the weapon. The penalty for this is sometimes not being relibale with underpowered ammo.

Sounds like that was the case or you may have just had an underdrilled gas port.

No problem ever with the LMT and ran Federal & Winchester white box, FGMM 175s (both 308 & 7.62), Wolf Gold 168s, etc. The short stroking issue I mentioned was with the S&W MP-10 and a review of many threads seem to indicate that they have an undersized gas port which sometimes works itself out after several hundred rounds. After probably 50 rounds, mine still was not locking the bolt back with anything and only ejecting about 1/2 the loads so I opened up the gas port a little and functions fine now.
 
I knew it wasn't the optics (NF NXS 5.5-22X50 ZS, HST NP-R1 reticle) or the mount (ADM Recon-S) both of which had been taken off another 308 semi when I got the MWS and had been spot on. I was using FGMM 168 grain for group testing so I discounted the ammunition. Having also in my collection an LMT MRP CQB it never dawned on me the they would have not torqued the barrel correctly as my CQB MRP was a very accurate carbine from the get go. I kew the barrel torquing was a factor which is why I called LMT form the range that day. I didn't want to torque the barrel with the crappy torque wrench LMT supplied until I spoke to them to ascertain the possible problem. I torqued it when I got home with my Borka torque wrench.
I had only talked with one factory with a problem with a weapon. That was Ruger on an SR 556. The conversation was completely different. They immediately told me they would send me a call tag to return it. I had it back in 2 1/2 weeks fixed. I guess that's why I was so disappointed with LMT.

I was just wondering what is your opinion of the HK MR762 and MR556 other than they are over priced which I agree with? I'd rather hear an unvarnished opinion rather then opinions from the fan boys on the HK site.

Love the Borka!

I would venture to bet Ruger is much more used to issuing RMA's for decfective products than LMT is.

I am a huge HK Fan, however I am not a fan of the MR762/556. It really doesn't bring anything to the table, but expense and propietary parts. HK makes quality gear but, its not the most accurate, its not the lightest, it's not the cheapest and it uses $90 mags when everyone else is running $20 mags. The 556 is a bad attempt at a civilian 416 type clone. Heavy, Poor rail system, not a great trigger, uneeded piston design in a full size AR, hard to source/expensive spare parts and an expensive gun over all. For $2500-3K, it should be perfect. For the same price you can have a fully decked BCM/DD/KAC/LMT with optics and accessories and it will be every bit as good as the HK's performance.

Now if you want to talk about HK pistols, specificaly their 45 variants..... I got a full on hard on for them. Special soft spot for the MP5, HK33/53/93, and HK 21/23 too.
 
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My buddy who is a very picky person when it comes to his weapons has an S&W MP 10 and really likes it. He is said the accuracy was quite good (but never gave me any specifics) and it performs flawlessly. Based on his life long possession and expertise with every thing from 22's to Class III weapons I would consider it if i was looking for another semi 308.

Heard good things about the M&P- 10 too, especialy at its price point. Nice and light, could be a good potenital host for a full build down the road or just a cheap, light thumper. I'll probally pick one up before the year is out too.
 
Just to keep the thread on point.
My price point was originally 1500-1600 which is why i was considering the Ruger 762.
I have owned Ruger products my entire life and imo they are built to last.

There just happened to be the LMT for 2499 and when I handled the rifle it was NICE, but heavy.

Now, suggesting JP, Larue, KAC, HK or GAP are 3k to 3.5k rifles, I am NOT interested in spending them much coin. Hence, the 1500-1600 price point.
If you cannot purchase a quality product for that amount then it says something about the industry as a whole.

I am selling off all my rifles on going down to only owning 1 rifle (and my 10/22) so the order of importance is
Reliability
Durability
Accuracy
No rattley parts.
Factory warranty and future support as I intend to keep this rifle a long time (as I do with all things I own, buy once and be happy)

Also, with everything I own, it must provide satisfaction of ownership.

Thank you all for you responses.
I am a bit surprised that almost all posters were unable to agree and any two products.
 
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I know but at 50 years of age I only have a desire to own 1 handgun, 1 rifle and 1 shotgun (not including my Ruger Mark I and the 10/22, of course).
 
Just to keep the thread on point.
My price point was originally 1500-1600 which is why i was considering the Ruger 762.
I have owned Ruger products my entire life and imo they are built to last.

There just happened to be the LMT for 2499 and when I handled the rifle it was NICE, but heavy.

Now, suggesting JP, Larue, KAC, HK or GAP are 3k to 3.5k rifles, I am NOT interested in spending them much coin. Hence, the 1500-1600 price point.
If you cannot purchase a quality product for that amount then it says something about the industry as a whole.

I am selling off all my rifles on going down to only owning 1 rifle (and my 10/22) so the order of importance is
Reliability
Durability
Accuracy
No rattley parts.
Factory warranty and future support as I intend to keep this rifle a long time (as I do with all things I own, buy once and be happy)

Also, with everything I own, it must provide satisfaction of ownership.

Thank you all for you responses.
I am a bit surprised that almost all posters were unable to agree and any two products.

LMT MWS meets your requirements. I have the 16" and recently ordered an 18" SS 5R barrel and their replacement torque wrench that is Dumb Infantry proof. Compare it to my DD M4V5 for quality and the LMT in my estimation is the better weapon and not because of caliber.
 
Heard good things about the M&P- 10 too, especialy at its price point. Nice and light, could be a good potenital host for a full build down the road or just a cheap, light thumper. I'll probally pick one up before the year is out too.

Before you buy check into what parts are proprietary. I think they may have a non standard barrel nut if that factors into your decision. Im not 100% certain but Im not buying one either.
 
Regards torque Trident182 has done some tests on his MWS using various torque settings. His results showed that the gun was forgiving and remained accurate at less than spec torque. I think he went down around 120 inch pounds maybe less.

Of greater concern is over torqueing. The bolts are designed to sheer and will break when you exceed 140 inch pounds. If you buy an MWS get a good torque wrench and buy a couple spare bolts from LMT at $10 each.
 
So back to the question, yes it is worth the extra $1K. Had a few, love them, then I went another extra $1K to my JP. That's the way it works, you start out spending X on a gun then step up and up and up and before you know it, you're sporting $4K AR10's and $4K 1911's, at least that's what happened to me!

You generally get what you pay for...
 
I've been debating this question myself. I have a DPMS Recon, but would like to move up to the "next level". On the other hand the DPMS Gen II seems to offer a lower possible weight than any other platform at the moment, and I'm more interested in a "battle rifle" style gun rather than a precision rifle. But I don't want something that isn't battle proven. Why did the Gen II have to come along and complicate things? :)
 
I've been debating this question myself. I have a DPMS Recon, but would like to move up to the "next level". On the other hand the DPMS Gen II seems to offer a lower possible weight than any other platform at the moment, and I'm more interested in a "battle rifle" style gun rather than a precision rifle. But I don't want something that isn't battle proven. Why did the Gen II have to come along and complicate things? :)

Do yourself a favor and buy the SCAR17. It will blow you away, all the way around. The only con is the price, but to be honest, its a great value even at $2800. The ONLY thing the AR10 platform has over it is different calibers and slight accuracy edge when using a great barrel. If you are fine with .308 and don't need GAP/JP level accuracy (Still shoots .5-1 Moa with CL Barrel) then you really can't beat the SCAR.
 
Do yourself a favor and buy the SCAR17. It will blow you away, all the way around. The only con is the price, but to be honest, its a great value even at $2800. The ONLY thing the AR10 platform has over it is different calibers and slight accuracy edge when using a great barrel. If you are fine with .308 and don't need GAP/JP level accuracy (Still shoots .5-1 Moa with CL Barrel) then you really can't beat the SCAR.

You're probably right, and I have been debating the SCAR heavily from time to time. I seem to have an emotional attachment to the large frame AR's for some reason, but my mind agrees that the SCAR is probably a better overall choice...

And yeah, not planning to shoot off a bipod much or a bench at all. More of an all around light weight 7.62 is what I want.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit. I'm also interested in what makes some of these guns so much better than the others.
 
Yea, I really don't shoot my .308 AR's as much after getting the SCAR. Should have bought one YEARS ago, my only regret.