Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

kamikaze

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I'm new to this forum and relatively new to reloading (<2 years) and I'm not sure if this question has come up or not so here is my situation:

(Please know that I understand the laws and dangers regarding ap bullets/ammo. I am strictly concerned only with load data and information regarding reloading these bullets.)

I have obtained some 164 grain .30 caliber armor piercing bullets (black tip) that appear to have been pulled from military surplus ammunition. My speculation is that they came from .30-06 ammunition. My concern is that I want to load them in a .308 Remington 700. The twist is 1:12 and I typically reload 168 gr Sierra HPBT with 44 grains of Hodgdon 8208 xbr in Lapua brass. However, when the 2 aforementioned bullets are compared side by side, the ap ammo is noticably longer. The difference is 0.205 in. I'm a little concerned to use the listed 165 grain load data on a bullet that is so much longer as this will affect pressure, right?

Here are my questions:
1.)Is it possible to reload these bullets for .308?
2.)If it is possible will my twist rate stabilize a bullet of this length since it is close to a 180 grain bullet length?
3.)Should I use 165 grain load data for reloading .308? Or should I use 180 grain load data since the bullet is going to be deeper inside the case?

I appreciate any information. Thanks.
 

john_1182

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

1: yes. just check and see that it is .308
2: if they are 164 grain and you are currently using 168 grain. it won't matter
3:lower the charge and work back up is the easy answer. their web site for the powder says for a 165 grain 38.5> 42.5 grain @ around 2650 fps. i would start at 38 and work up.
 

desertHK

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

Where did you get those AP rounds? They are rarer than gold.
 

shoepop

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where did you get those AP rounds? They are rarer than gold. </div></div>

At gun shows here in NM about 5 or so years ago you could buy all you wanted pulled 30 cal AP in 50 Cal ammo cans for $40-50. I was always told pulled from 30-06.
 

The Mechanic

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

You may want to run those through a sizer. At the time I got some there were the larger Russian projo's out there that would put the hurt to a rifle. Also some of the pulled projo's got a little damaged.
At the very least mic them. I have had VERY good luck with pulled and sized AP. They have been VERY accurate.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...793#Post1162793
 

zack-s

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

From what I hear they are hard on barrels, so you may not want to use in your match rifle. I had load data for these, but cant seem to find it now. Got it from ar15.com a few years back. Search there maybe its still an active thread.
 

Suasponte

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

308ap.jpg


I have used IMR-4895, IMR-4064, RE-15 for 308 AP.

Start at about 40gr and work up.

Terry
 

zack-s

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

Cant use IMR 4475 unless you find some from pull downs.
 

kamikaze

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Re: Load Data for 30 cal armor piercing bullets

Thanks, everyone! I used 39 grains of IMR 8208 xbr to start. We'll see how that works. The powder is not compressed at that level.

As far as being hard on barrels....as long as the bullet has a full metal jacket that is in good shape why would what's inside matter? Again, this will be going through a factory Remington barrel, but I don't want to do any damage to it as it has tons of life left in it.

And I came across these from a friend of mine who no longer shoots .30 caliber rifles. Does anyone know their value? I have 100 of them.
 

Smork

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Hey guys, I've got a 30 caliber 164 grain AP question myself.

I am currently reloading 170 grain Sierra fn bullets with 25 grains of Hodgdon Benchmark powder for my lever action 30-30 464 SPX.
But I also have some of the AP rounds mentioned above and I want to reload some for my rifle.

While using these I understand that they essentially turn my lever action repeater into a single shot rifle.

Hodgdon recommends 26.1 grains of powder for a 160 grain Hornady FTX bullet, could I go with this data?
At 1.384" the AP rounds are 0.370" longer than my standard flat nose bullets which are 1.014" long and that's really my only concern is the length of the bullet. The cannelures are almost exactly the same length from the base of the bullet on both of them though.

Thoughts?
 

JGorski

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Do they look like this? 168AMAX for comparison. If I were to load these for a 308, Id use 45grs CFE223. You should be safe with 39grs 8208.
qUoJ64U.jpg
 

former naval person

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Many years ago when I shot with the Navy Team from Glynco, GA, we were issued AP ammo for matches because it was the most accurate military ball out there.
 

JGorski

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Hey guys, I've got a 30 caliber 164 grain AP question myself.

I am currently reloading 170 grain Sierra fn bullets with 25 grains of Hodgdon Benchmark powder for my lever action 30-30 464 SPX.
But I also have some of the AP rounds mentioned above and I want to reload some for my rifle.



While using these I understand that they essentially turn my lever action repeater into a single shot rifle.

Hodgdon recommends 26.1 grains of powder for a 160 grain Hornady FTX bullet, could I go with this data?
At 1.384" the AP rounds are 0.370" longer than my standard flat nose bullets which are 1.014" long and that's really my only concern is the length of the bullet. The cannelures are almost exactly the same length from the base of the bullet on both of them though.

Thoughts?

I wouldnt go over 23.8grs BM with these bullets.
 

Smork

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Thanks, I'll start there and work up.
I ran into a slight issue though, I reloaded a dummy round using the AP bullet and I seated the bullet in the shell to the cannelure and tried to put it in the chamber and the bullet stuck out o the shell so far that I could not get the cartridge to fully load.

Is it ok if I seat the bullet just as deep as it needs to be to fit in the chamber properly and give it a crimp with a factory crimp die to hold it nice and snug? Or since I'm not loading these rounds into the tubular magazine do I even need to crimp at all?
 

JGorski

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Thanks, I'll start there and work up.
I ran into a slight issue though, I reloaded a dummy round using the AP bullet and I seated the bullet in the shell to the cannelure and tried to put it in the chamber and the bullet stuck out o the shell so far that I could not get the cartridge to fully load.

Is it ok if I seat the bullet just as deep as it needs to be to fit in the chamber properly and give it a crimp with a factory crimp die to hold it nice and snug? Or since I'm not loading these rounds into the tubular magazine do I even need to crimp at all?

You'll have to seat them to fit the chamber of course, though I dont know why youd wanna shoot these bullets in a tirdy tirdy. No crimp, please.
 

Smork

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Haha I'm seating them for the 30-30 cuz I have access to them and I figured why not.

Thanks for the quick responses. I really appreciate it as I am reloading right now :)
 

JGorski

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Haha I'm seating them for the 30-30 cuz I have access to them and I figured why not.

Thanks for the quick responses. I really appreciate it as I am reloading right now :)

What will u be shooting at with them, those armor plated plated deer out there? hahaha
 

Smork

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Haha robo squatch! Nah my friend has a tricked out M1-A1 and that's what he got those bullets for.

Never know, could come in handy in a SHTF situation if you need to stop an approaching vehicle or something. The only rifle I have is my 30-30 so that's what I'm making do with.
 

armorpl8chikn

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Haha robo squatch! Nah my friend has a tricked out M1-A1 and that's what he got those bullets for.

Never know, could come in handy in a SHTF situation if you need to stop an approaching vehicle or something. The only rifle I have is my 30-30 so that's what I'm making do with.

Smork. One of the most important things these bullets need to work well is SPEED. Hate to bust your bubble but the thutty thutty ain't gonna be very effective.

I am concerned about the comment about these causing barrel damage. I had planned on shooting some in a SS match barrel but not if there is any chance for damage. Can someone confirm or deny this rumor by expounding on "WHY" it will damage a barrel. I know the 4140 used in Garand barrels is a bit harder than 416SS but they are copper jacketed and not copper washed steel.
Anyone.....?
Anyone.....?
 

former naval person

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OH...if you shoot them into a dirt bank the internal penetrator can be recovered...it is sharp, pointy, and harder than a landlords heart. It makes a great center punch!
 

Michael Courtney

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This is a tricky bullet. You may want to remove the sealant by tumbling in stainless media. It will remove the black paint from the tip too. Weights can be all over the place (several grains of variation), so you'll need to sort by weight if you care about accuracy. The long bearing surface and hard core will make the friction of this bullet much higher than the friction of jacketed lead bullets and also much higher than solid copper bullets of similar weight. Start at the minimum load and don't even think about going all the way to a published maximum for a jacketed lead bullet. If you're loads are mild enough, you can circumvent the magazine problem in 30-30 by loading them backwards.
 

Michael Courtney

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Smork. One of the most important things these bullets need to work well is SPEED. Hate to bust your bubble but the thutty thutty ain't gonna be very effective.

I am concerned about the comment about these causing barrel damage. I had planned on shooting some in a SS match barrel but not if there is any chance for damage. Can someone confirm or deny this rumor by expounding on "WHY" it will damage a barrel. I know the 4140 used in Garand barrels is a bit harder than 416SS but they are copper jacketed and not copper washed steel.
Anyone.....?
Anyone.....?

Three possible causes of barrel damage: the petroleum sealant can accumulate in the barrel and increase friction, thus increasing wear and heat. More likely, friction is increased by the long bearing surface and the hard penetrator core. When a normal jacketed lead bullet is engraved by the rifling, the soft lead can give and be compressed a bit if needed as the bullet squeezes through the bore. There is no give in the penetrator and the copper jacket is the only thing with any give as the bullet is squeezed through the bore. This will likely increase wear and heat in most barrels. Fouling can also build up quickly. The third issue is the possible high pressures that are likely of you work up a load approaching published maximums for jacketed lead bullets. Few things ruin a barrel more quickly than very high pressures.
 

armorpl8chikn

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Three possible causes of barrel damage: the petroleum sealant can accumulate in the barrel and increase friction, thus increasing wear and heat. More likely, friction is increased by the long bearing surface and the hard penetrator core. When a normal jacketed lead bullet is engraved by the rifling, the soft lead can give and be compressed a bit if needed as the bullet squeezes through the bore. There is no give in the penetrator and the copper jacket is the only thing with any give as the bullet is squeezed through the bore. This will likely increase wear and heat in most barrels. Fouling can also build up quickly. The third issue is the possible high pressures that are likely of you work up a load approaching published maximums for jacketed lead bullets. Few things ruin a barrel more quickly than very high pressures.

By this logic, Barnes bullets and likewise custom turned solids like we see in the big boy cartridges, would be detrimental and possibly cause damage. If the bullets are detrimental because they will result in higher pressures...well I suppose one could actually reduce a powder charge to account for that. Who in their right mind would shoot the bullets with the old asphaltum sealer still intact. Is the bearing surface longer than any other .308 bullet? Every barrel that has ever been wore out progressed steadily and gradually from the throat. You are correct that heat and pressure destroy barrels, but the bullet does not cause the heat and pressure per se. The nut loading the ammo causes that.
Although it seems I am argueing with you but I am not, this info is actually quite helpful cause it makes me draw parrallels.
It would appear that these bullets pose no different threat to a barrel than any other bullet. If I am wrong please explain.
 

ronnl001

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I've used 45gr of CFE223 with fairly good success. I unfortunately can't contribute anything related to 8208.