• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Load Development For First Timer

Ibelieve1776

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 17, 2013
93
0
Jupiter, FL
I am new to reloading and I have all my components ready to go but Im not sure where to go from here so I would like to see what you guys have done successfully to get a good load. I need to know the process such as when is the ladder test done? Do I need to find my powder charge prior to finding the best seating depth? Do I even need to do a ladder test? How many rounds should I load and what is the best starting point and what is a good measure to increase by.

Then assuming I have my loads all ready to go to the range what process should I follow? Obviously Im setting up my Chrono but then what?

So I know that is a lot of questions but I want to be efficient and not blow through rounds.

Im shooting 300 win mag with 230 grain Berger Hybrids with Retumbo. Thank You for your help.
 
Last edited:
You'll get 100 different answers from 100 different shooters. Some well thought out, some not so much. Here's mine. I try to balance certainty with expediency/cost. You could easily shoot out a barrel if you want 100% confidence in the load. On the other hand if you cheap out and don't shoot enough, you could end up shooting a less than optimal load for the entire life of the barrel and not realize it.

What I do is pick a well used powder and bullet combo - for example, for my new 6mm XC, I'm starting with H4350 and Sierra 107's. It seems to work for others *with similar rifles* (I don't believe in OCW - it defies logic that there is a good load for all rifles. If there were such a thing, it would have been discovered ages ago and we could just use it). So if you're shooting a 30" Palma rifle, talk to Palma shooters, not the guys shooting suppressed SBR's. Starting with the bullet seated just off the lands, I start 1.5 grains below max (~5% lower that max- some may start 10% down, but I've found that unnecessary), and load up 15 rounds of each load in 0.3 grain increments. (Use larger increments for larger cases - the point is to start about 5% under and work your way up to max in about 5 increments).

Then go shoot them. Always watch for pressure - every round. One group of 7, one of 8 (turns out 7 round groups are statistically optimal, and I don't want to bother with 14 it messes up my ammo box layout). It's a lot of shooting (5 loads x 15 rounds each) - don't rush it. And don't forget a few extras for foulers/sighters.

Pay attention to the vertical distance of each group from POA. (This is like a ladder test, but better because you are using a more reasonable sample size). People will say you can't do this at 100 yards. That's nonsense. If it will show up at 400, it will show up at 100 - you just have to measure carefully. Also pay attention to actual group size, but keep in mind your sample size of 15 rounds is WAY TOO SMALL to draw any firm conclusions. If a load is crap, you'll see it, and can move on. If there are two loads next to each other that look comparable and possibly good enough, great- split the difference and if you care to, repeat the whole process with that load, but vary the seating depth (This is pretty important for VLD's, not so much for some other bullets). Usually after all that, you'll find an acceptable load.

Above all, stop when it's good enough, then verify with another 20-30 rounds and call it done.

I shoot high power, so "good enough" is very well defined for me. I've got to be able to hold a certain MOA (depends on the range and position) for 10 rounds with a high degree of confidence. I want the rifle to be able to clear the course with some margin if shot by a perfect shooter. You need to think about what your'e after before you start, or you'll keep spinning your wheels in search of "better". In especially bad cases, you'll wind up shooting benchrest, and there is no known cure for that.

And one final thought - you must accept that you have not shot enough to be truly certain of your chosen load's capability. You just haven't. So if later on you start to doubt the rifle or the load, don't be afraid to look at it again. There is a reasonably good chance that you were fooled by randomness that looked like a good load but wasn't. That's just the way it is unless you're the military.

Edit: one other thing: I pay attention to the wind but do not adjust for it. If there's a good breeze, that will stretch your groups in a diagonal manner. Ignore dispersion that looks like it's wind induced. A group that looks like a straight line going from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock in a strong variable wind is probably a very good load.
 
Last edited:
if i have a bullet weight / style i intend to use foir reloading, i'll try to find the same (or as close as i can) in factory ammo Preferably hornady factory ammo) and run that through the chrony first to get at least a baseline of FPS i should be looking at while still being "safe". then i'll hit 3 or 4 different load books and see how many grains of powder X it takes to get in that neighborhood.

1 round of factory i measure the OAL and other dimensions, then tear apart the round, measure the powder charge, seating depth, and the style of powder used in it (flake, stick, ball, etc), what i think the primer is they are ussing, etc to give me more on an idea of where to get started on powder choice.

at that point i'll make up 5 loads each with a few grains less powder up to (in .5 grain incrments what should be a matching FPS of the factory ammo and run through the chrony, if i like a certain charge on the chrony and on paper, then i'll i'll start adjusting the seating depth / overall length to tweek it from there, and then have my baseline load of which to work from.
 
If this is your first reloading, don't make any more cartridges than you are willing to tear back down :) Save load development for your second trip to the range with reloads .

I'd recommend taking the book max load, subtracting 10%, and making 3 cartridges. Then add 2%, and make 3 more. Add 2%, and make 3 more. These turn out to be the same loads you would make one each of if you were starting OCW development. Test fire, get on paper/sight in a little low on the target.

Absorb any lessons you learned, and then go on to do a ladder or OCW as you decide.
 
I don't believe in OCW - it defies logic that there is a good load for all rifles. If there were such a thing, it would have been discovered ages ago and we could just use it).

You mean like FGMM? Or Lake City Match?:)

If you read the OCW information, he worked from the concept that FGMM shot well in many rifles, which did defy "common sense."

Also, if you look up Optimum Barrel Time by Chris Long, you will find an in depth discussion of the physics behind the OCW.
 
Actually OCW is 3 rounds at each increment (past the first 3 pressure/sighter rounds) and at an increment of 0.7 - 1.0%. Not 2%.

Accuracy node to scatter node is 1.5% charge weight, so 2% can miss the sweet spot.
 
You mean like FGMM? Or Lake City Match?:)

If you read the OCW information, he worked from the concept that FGMM shot well in many rifles, which did defy "common sense."

Also, if you look up Optimum Barrel Time by Chris Long, you will find an in depth discussion of the physics behind the OCW.

If FGGM works well in lots of rifles, it's because lots of rifles behave similarly. You would expect that. If you take 100 Rem 700's with heavy 24" barrels and find a load that works in one, there's a very good chance that it will work in most of the others. I know it's common for people to say that certain rifles "like" or "dislike" certain things, but that too is nonsensical when your'e talking about substantially identical rifles. They're not magic, after all. But There is no way a 16" super-heavy barreled Remington is going to shoot the same load my 30" Barnard is (or if it does, it's a hell of a coincidence). The rifles are just too different - the recoil lugs, the bolt lugs, the barrel length, the stock configuration, the action stiffness. It all matters.

I've read those articles, and while they're interesting, but I think there is far too much going on for that one effect to dominate the system. Great stuff, but no substitute for old fashioned trial and error to find a load that plays well with a particular rifle. If OCW is all there is to it, then what do you make of the fact that bullet impacts go up and down in a sine wave with increasing charge - and that is clearly observable (if you do a ladder test you will see this if you correct for the increasing velocity - otherwise it looks more like stair steps)? That is a far bigger effect in my view, and one that can't be nailed down simply by looking at barrel length. I also have trouble understanding how a tiny change in muzzle diameter (micro-inches, if I recall correctly) has such a big impact on dispersion. Not saying it doesn't, but I can't just accept it as so without some sort of proof or at least logic. Saying that a benchrest shooter observed it doesn't make it so. As we all know, shooters (some very good ones at that) observe a lot that just isn't happening.

"I don't believe in OCW" was probably too strong a statement. I believe Mr Long found a legitimate physical phenomenon and really enjoyed reading his work. I just don't believe it has the impact that many think it does.
 
Last edited:
The thing is that when you follow the OCW instructions you are not trying to find a load that works well in multiple rifles. You are searching for a load that will work very well in YOUR rifle that is more forgiving than most, so if you end up charging .2-3g lower or higher that it should not effect your POI too drastically.
 
That's not OCW as I read it. That's load development, and is better explained by the barrel vibrations that have been discussed at length for decades.

I'm talking about this article:

Optimal Barrel Time Paper

Which comes to the following conclusion:

"So, we now have a theory and a model that can predict the optimum barrel times given only the barrel length, regardless of barrel construction or mounting."

He seems to think that this is all that matters, although it's admittedly not clear in that article. If the mechanism he describes is the most important one, then barrel tuners would not work. We know barrel tuners do work.

Like I said, interesting work, but not at all the whole picture.
 
First, if you are doing load development that is likely to end up with cartridges which should not be fired for safety reasons, you should avail yourself with some way to disassemble those cartridges. Impact bullet pullers are probably adequate for a few cartridges, but they can be a chore for larger numbers, and they are not kind to plastic bullet tips. After decades of handloading I have obtained a set of collet bullet pulling dies, and I now clearly recognize that I should have bought them far sooner.

I don't expend a lot of effort on seating depths. Using the permanent marker on the bullet method, I find my shortest seating depth to reach the lands, and then reduce that length so I can be certain all bullets jump at least .010". Yes, there are accuracy advantages to getting more precise about that, but for my purposes they are small enough for me to just simply forego them in the long run. If magazine feeding is a serious consideration, then it's also my only one.

I choose a primer that is most easily available and adequate for the intended task, and leave it at that.

My main effort is geared toward finding a good charge weight. I determine this by load testing. If the load is going to be used in a hot barrel, as when shooting matches, then I do my load testing with a hot barrel. If the match's course of fire requires a relatively rapid firing cadence, then the testing must replicate that firing cadence. All of these factors and more are critical to successful load development. A load doesn't just need to match a barrel, it also needs to match the way that barrel is intended to be used.

Once you 'find' a charge weight, confirm it with a large batch of test loads. Try some with .1gr more and .1gr less, just to confirm it's as good as it needs to be; don't make the mistake of basing the assembly of large batches of ammo on a shaky charge weight finding.

Understand clearly that load development is a necessary but subtly evil task which should be kept to a minimum. Seeking load perfection makes little sense if it is done at the expense of a significant potion of the intended barrel's bore life.

If, heavens forbid, you are forced to change a load, break down any unfired batches of the old one and repurpose the components to the new load. There's few things more pointless than hanging onto handloaded ammo you don't really want to shoot, and/or subjecting the bore to the punishment of simply 'using up the old, bad ammo'. That is definitely not a good bore preservation strategy.

In the past, I have tried following a practice of developing loads for different distances. What I have found is that in almost all cases, the longer range load is also very much a good one for the shorter distances.

I find that the bullets and necks tend to bond together after assembly, changing the neck tension/pullet pull value and often rendering a good load less accurate. For this reason I only maintain minimal stocks of assembled ammo, the components last a lot longer in their individual packaging. I only make ammo shortly in advance of specific needs, like an upcoming match, or at the beginning of a hunting season, and I break unused stuff back down to components, so any stocks of bonding-compromised ammo is kept at a minimum, or better yet, none at all.

Mostly, for hunting, I just go with factory ammo. I don't hunt enough to justify the added effort and expense of load development. It works, certainly well enough for the likes of me. I prefer Hornady Superformance SST and Remington Core-Lokt Express.

I believe that the sooty/etc. residues in fired case necks are at least partially to blame for this bonding, and am investing in an ultrasonic cleaning process with stainless steel media to eliminate their presence in my cases before reloading.

In essence, simplicity needs to be a primary goal. Specialization is for insects. Reduce your calibers, loads for each gun, and handloading techniques down to the ones that provide the most usage for the least effort and cost. Over the years, my firearms collection has become smaller and more specific, based on cool evaluations of needs and capabilities. I define tasks, and then provide a needed capability. Duplication is ultimately unsatisfying, finding multiple uses for a common implement is praiseworthy. Whims are for schoolgirls.

The only press I have ever owned is a Dillon RL550B, and a used one at that. It's clearly excessive for a new guy, but one grows into it, and faster because it's such a good one. For the longer haul, it's just plainly become one of my key necessities.

For a newbie, some of this stuff can be a bit excessive, so take it with a grain of salt, and keep it in mind for somewhere down the road.

In over 20 years of handloading I have practically never found a load that works really well in any gun other than the one it was developed for. Coincidences may happen, but apparently, not to me. I don't consider a universal load to be a viable goal. All such loads are ultimately compromises, and a load individually matched/optimized to a specific rifle will almost certainly always best them. But I have also still failed to find loads that beat the pants off FGMM.

Greg
 
Last edited:
Actually OCW is 3 rounds at each increment (past the first 3 pressure/sighter rounds) and at an increment of 0.7 - 1.0%. Not 2%.

Accuracy node to scatter node is 1.5% charge weight, so 2% can miss the sweet spot.
If you read my post again, you will understand that I advised making a few rounds that equated to the three fouler/sighter loads in OCW. These are, in fact, 2% apart.
 
Damn, just damn.

With all due respect, proper load development is obviously far beyond my meger capacity. So I'll re-read the stickys at the top of this section and thank the Almighty that Mr. Newberry was kind enough to share his OCW load-development-for-dummies method and keep it simple.

OFG
 
Thank you all for your replies! I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say I will be using the OCW method because it just seems to me that I will have a much more tangible/measurable result to work with.
 
but I think there is far too much going on for that one effect to dominate the system. Great stuff, but no substitute for old fashioned trial and error to find a load that plays well with a particular rifle. If OCW is all there is to it, then what do you make of the fact that bullet impacts go up and down in a sine wave with increasing charge - and that is clearly observable (if you do a ladder test you will see this if you correct for the increasing velocity - otherwise it looks more like stair steps)? That is a far bigger effect in my view, and one that can't be nailed down simply by looking at barrel length. I also have trouble understanding how a tiny change in muzzle diameter (micro-inches, if I recall correctly) has such a big impact on dispersion. Not saying it doesn't, but I can't just accept it as so without some sort of proof or at least logic. Saying that a benchrest shooter observed it doesn't make it so. As we all know, shooters (some very good ones at that) observe a lot that just isn't happening.

"I don't believe in OCW" was probably too strong a statement. I believe Mr Long found a legitimate physical phenomenon and really enjoyed reading his work. I just don't believe it has the impact that many think it does.

You don't seem to understand OCW, it is a systematic way of working up a load for YOUR gun, but instead of looking for just the smallest group, you find the range that is repeatable.

Also, if you don't believe that the muzzle changing by micro inches, why does everyone worry about the condition of the barrel crown?

Have you shot FGMM or Lake City in YOUR gun? How did it shoot?
 
If you read my post again, you will understand that I advised making a few rounds that equated to the three fouler/sighter loads in OCW. These are, in fact, 2% apart.

Sorry, must have missed that.

I did an OCW Excel Template that does the calculations for you, and it does do the first 3 rounds at a 2% increment.
 
If you read my post again, you will understand that I advised making a few rounds that equated to the three fouler/sighter loads in OCW. These are, in fact, 2% apart.

Sorry, must have missed that.

I did an OCW Excel Template that does the calculations for you, and it does do the first 3 rounds at a 2% increment.
 
. . . I did an OCW Excel Template that does the calculations for you, and it does do the first 3 rounds at a 2% increment.
Me too lol. Allows for manual adjustments and prints out the "Work Order" for the guy who does the loading in the basement :) Then it stays with that "box" of ammo until used to enter results in the "Load Tests" database.
 
I have a new dilemma. I decided to go with the optimal charge weight method I have my loads ready to go but I'm having an issue with neck tension. I must have over annealed my brass so now even after a factory crimp the bullets are coming loose. They stay tight until I chambered a couple to double check before heading out. So what do I do? Btw if you need to know for whatever reason I'm loading 230gr Bergers Retumbo in federal brass.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
 
Last edited:
Well, the purpose and effect of annealing is to counteract the effects of work hardening. So, I figure that pulling the bullets and running them through the F/L die and expander ball should restore some hardness. You can remove the decapper pin so it doesn't disturb the live primers.

At least, I'd try that before I arbitrarily recycled the brass.

BTW, this could be as good an excuse/point in time to invest in a collet bullet puller die and several calibers of collets, whichever ones you happen to currently load. Whenever you have more rounds than fingers on both hands to pull, an impact puller becomes too inefficient.

This could also be a good time to review your annealing policy.

Greg
 
The crazy thing is, is that I didn't think I left them in the heat long enough because there isn't that clearly defined darker area like on military ammo.

What we be the problem with using the ammo as is?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
 
Honestly, I don't know. I would suggest that before doing anything groundbreaking with this brass, it be tested with care, using a generally agreeably safe load.

If you're still worried, scrap the brass and replace it with new. Safe beat sorry pretty reliably most times I can recall. You may incur more expense, but nothing like those bad consequences could involve.

FYI, I don't anneal; I don't believe I have the temperament to do it with calm and ease. I load conservatively, and try to restrain my brass working to modest limits. Brass is still cheap enough for me to recycle my own after more than a modest number of reloadings.

Greg
 
Last edited:
I fixed it! It wasn't an over annealing issue it was the mandrel in my die which was .308 so there was no press fit. I took the mandrel out and chucked it in a drill and hit it with some 600 grit and took it down to .306. Reloaded all my bullets last night and everything is a tight fit. I guess I should have checked it sooner, but that's how ya learn. Thanks for your help.
 
I was going to ask if you had measured the necks after sizing. :)
 
Nope I only found that after searching loose bullets and found that others have measured. Sucky part is I ruined 32 of my Bergers by putting a crimp on them which I read is no no! This is all a hue learning experience for me. I would like to ask one more thing using my Hornady OAL Gauge Im having a tough time discerning touching vs jamming. I want to be sure im measuring the point of just touching rather than jamming. Any tips?
 
Push the plastic rod in really gently until you first feel any resistance. Don't let it move before tightening it down. Do it several times. If the bullet gets stuck, it is jammed.
I tried a different way this time:
Clipped a fire-formed case mouth twice, neck sized it a thou wider, lubed a bullet and gently chambered and measured several times. Seems accurate, and I got great groups touching the rifling using that measurement. Saw something tho that says you got to remove the firing pin first...
 
Thank you guys again for all the help. I tested my 32 loads starting at 71.6gr up to 76.5gr and it turns out my OCW looks to be 76 gr though 76.5 wasn't bad. So my latest question is, my max load is 76.5 according to Berger but I'm thinking since my ocw was so close to max should I try to increase in .3gr increments up to 77 gr which is Hodgdons max. Fyi I had no signs of excessive pressure ie. No sticky bolt, flattened or cratered primers and no ejector marks. So any thoughts? The only reason I went with Berger's number was just fear and now that I'm feeling more confident of like to see if it gets any better.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
 
You should check in with Dan, but I think the node after 76-76.5 is going to be above 78 grs if you can get there.
What OAL?

I use CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) which is 2.887 on the round measured it came out to 3.686 OAL. Im doing all Dan says with those measurements .020 off the lands.
 
That's a reasonable velocity for 230s. But you found a node at 76-76.5. Did you chrono that charge? Should be pretty fast.
I often wonder if Retumbo would get me a higher velocity than H1000, with bullets seated way out. My CBTO is 2.977".
 
Highest was 2873 fps average for 3 rounds is 2845 fps. I was waiting for h1000 until I found a bunch of Retumbo, so I talked to Berger and Hodgdon and they said it would be prefect. I'm sticking with Retumbo because I can't go through all this and then switch powders. I already have to switch brass and I'm concerned about that. Switching brass between Federal and Remington.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
 
I use CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) which is 2.887 on the round measured it came out to 3.686 OAL. Im doing all Dan says with those measurements .020 off the lands.

Funny your ogive readings are LITERALLY the same as mine. Retumbo is all I use for the 230's.

null_zpsec518c93.jpg