Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

Cascade Precision

Cascade Precision

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 23, 2008
875
25
48
Klamath Falls, OR
#1
I have been reloading for many years, but this is my first belted cartridge.
I have the following components:
RCBS Rock Chucker 2
RCBS dies: Neck sizer, full length sizer, seating die
H-1000 powder
Winchester brass (unfired)
CCI Mag primers
Hornady SST 180 grain boolits

My strategy: To achieve as reasonable accuracy as possible. Will ladder test at 300 yards (as that is the range I KNOW I have).

Purpose: To take large game at 700 yards and closer until I feel confident in making a strategic hit for a fast kill at longer distances.

My program:
1. Lube and full length size cases
2. Clean cases
3. Prime cases
4. Start at 76 grains H-1000 loaded to mag length working up in .5 grain increments to 81.5 (81 being max according to data.hodgdon.com). Stop at signs of pressure (hard bolt lift, sticky extraction, well before plasma from pierced primer).
5. OCW Ladder at 300 yards.
6. Determine what range shoots best, rinse, lather, repeat in .2 grain increments across the range of what groups best.

Issues I know I will have:
Belted cases stretch on first fire. How much issue am I going to have once I reload the case on powder charge? I like to make each shot count, even if it is on paper, so I don't want to just blaze away fire-forming brass.

How much will the load change once brass has been fired once? Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
 
#3
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

I thought about that Pat, if I can neck size only I would prefer that. Was just curious if it was worth the trouble of neck sizing only to find out that it needed full-length...
 
#4
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

If you want to get maximum life from your brass, load a fireforming load (load at the bottom of the recommended powder load to keep pressures down) the first firing by seating your bullets *just* into the lands. This will keep the casehead against the boltface when things go boom. If you don't do this, the firing pin strikes the primer, pushing the case as far forward as the belt will allow, the case sides expand to grab the chamber walls, then combustion pressure pushes the casehead back against the boltface, stretching the brass just in front of the belt.

*IF* you completely FL size (pushing the shoulder all the way back each time), you will repeat this process every loading and gets 2-4 firings from your brass due to head separation.

I could get away with neck sizing in one chamber. But not now. I recommend FL sizing until you've bumped the shoulder *just* enough to chamber with no effort. This guarantees your brass will chamber *and* have long life.

I HIGHLY recommend NOT using RCBS dies. I had bad runout with them. Use either the combination of Lee collet neck sizer and Redding body die, or get a Redding Type S bushing FL die.

*IF* the body die or FL die do not size your brass above the belt enough to chamber, get the Willis collet die. I've never needed one.

The Redding Competition seater is awesome too, as it centers the brass solidly in the die as it seat the bullet and the micrometer head allows for exact changes to seating depth.

For long range hunting, get some 208 Amax, 210 JLK's or Berger 210 hunting bullets. You'll be happy you did when you're hunting in a 10-15 mph gusty wind. They will DESTROY those SST's in wind hold.

My experience. YMMV.

John
 
#5
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

Buy the inexpensive but very worthwhile Redding body die, this serves just to bump the shoulders back a tad while sizing the body almost down the belt. Use in conjunction with your neck die and you should be able to produce some good results.
 
#6
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

my thoughts a re you WILL need to FL-resize......and maybe even get a small base sizer.......

what sort of chamber are we talking about here ?
 
#7
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

Sorry, forgot to mention rifle: Stock Savage 111 LRH 300 winmag. To date, I do not know how long I need to load to hit the lands. I have everything ready to go, just finishing my research.

RCBS is no longer a decent die set? I have always had such good luck with them that I did not try anything else (except Dillon).
 
#10
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ogreshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RCBS is no longer a decent die set? </div></div>

That depends on your goals.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ogreshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To achieve as reasonable accuracy as possible. </div></div>

I got unreasonable runout with RCBS. Like I said YMMV. Wth the Lee Collet, Redding body die and Redding Comp. seater I was getting between .0015 and .0000,

BTW, measure the neck thickness of your Win. brass. Mine varied between .017 and .0115. *HAD* to be neck turned or the bullet would never have centered in the lands.

John
 
#12
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

Lordy, lordy....yeah, me too, Bolt.

Mentioning SSt 180 gives me the sneaky suspicion ogre just wants to hunt. He isn't trying to win a 1000 yard world benchrest title.
Hyper-activity about runout, neck turning, comp seaters, 180 v 210 wind holds is horse feathers. I have another sneaky suspicion ogre will not take the shot at an Elk or Goat in a 40mph full value wind at 841 yards whether he's firing 180sst or 210jlk.

Ogre: the resident authority on loading generally, and your caliber specifically, is ChadTrg. Search his name. Do what he says on loading for 300wm. One hint is he's a big fan of neck sizing. Naturally, you will want to be certain this works for you on the rifle range during your tests. Also, you seem detailed. You will love this:

optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

Good Shooting.
Casey
 
#13
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mentioning SSt 180 gives me the sneaky suspicion ogre just wants to hunt. He isn't trying to win a 1000 yard world benchrest title.</div></div>

Ogre made it very clear that he wanted to hunt. That he wanted to get proficient to 700 yds and then stretch it. I'm not here to make moral decisions for him. I simply gave my advice for what I thought would best suit his need. I take shooting animals a LOT more seriously than shooting paper, I don't care what the distance. If I'm going to consider shooting a deer or an elk at extreme distance, it is going to get the very best of everything I've got. There is no room for error.

BTW...

Wind hold for a 180 SST is 38" per JBM @ 700 yds FV. 208/210's? 18" per my field data. The SST has nothing on an Amax or a VLD. An Accubond at least has a bonded jacket, but at those distances, that's the least of my worries.

Like I said... YMMV.

He asked, I gave him the best information for what he asked. If he said he was shooting elk at 250, I'd have told him to go get some Federal Fusion 180's.

To each his own.

John
 
#14
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

I take all information seriously. I thank everyone for their information and experience. If I did not want their advice, I would not have asked.

I was unaware that RCBS had questionable run-out. I realize that taking an animal, as JROB said, at any distance from point blank to 700, I want that animal to go down and stay down.

Are SST's not that good on elk? Or just not that good when it comes to wind?

I will look into testing some of the bullets you suggested. I went 180's as that is the bullet weight I have shot and it has performed well on all animals I have shot. But, the farthest animal to date is under 200 yards.

Boltrippers comment: I tried popcorn, it did nothing for my loading...Did I do it wrong??

I will try this die set out and if I do not get acceptable results, I will scrap them and try the other dies suggested.

Again, thank you all for your experience. I am trying to learn from you and your experience, that is why I ask.
 
#15
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ogreshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will try this die set out and if I do not get acceptable results, I will scrap them and try the other dies suggested.</div></div>

That's the conservative thing to do. Money stopped growing on trees here too.
wink.gif


The Amax and SST are very similar in construction. IIRC, the SST's have a cannelure. I know the Amax's will go through 1/2 mild steel at 600 yds. effortlessly. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk in the shoulder with them.

John
 
#17
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

Size and reload a belted case like any other bottle neck case.

<span style="font-style: italic">"I got unreasonable runout with RCBS. Like I said YMMV. Wth the Lee Collet, Redding body die and Redding Comp. seater I was getting between .0015 and .0000,"</span>

Don't dispute this but I can't help but wonder how many sets of RCBS dies you tested to support this statement. Fact is, all dies have design and SAAMI tolerace ranges so dies vary about as much in the same brand as between brands. Every "good" die I own is good only because I tested/measured the results from several sets and selected the best, sold off most of the rest. (And even they were okay, just not quite as close to waht I needed as I wished.) My RCBS dies tested no better or worse than any of the others (including, gasp, Lee).

The sets of dies I've retained are virtually all a mix of brands and I still have some 60 die sets in more than 30 calibers. The only consistantly good-to-excellant dies I've owned, by brand, are Forster BR seaters and Lee Collet Neck Sizer dies.


 
#18
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't help but wonder how many sets of RCBS dies you tested to support this statement. </div></div>

I tested exactly 1 (read: one) set. It gave me runout, I didn't like it. I did some reading online in forums that are more anal than I am about such things and found a large number of people who used the Lee collet die in conjunction with the Redding body die and comp. seater. I bought them. They work. I'm happy.

This is the part that's missing... consistently in my reading, other reloaders complained about RCBS dies with regards to runout and oversizing. Their findings were similar to mine. I don't have time or money to do significant sample size testing of different combination of dies, so I let my fingers do the walking. Then I share what works for me, so others don't have to recreate my time consuming and expensive journey . RCBS dies worked fine for my .270 but then again I wasn't trying to hit stuff over 2000 yards either. We're in a whole different ballgame now, and it's likely to get much worse since talking to Tom Sarver.
wink.gif


John
 
#19
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

take Jrob300's and Boltrippers advice.even Chads.they have given me alot of good advive when it comes to a 300wm.and I too even use the Lee collet die for all of my reloading with all cals'that I have.jst work up a load that your rifel likes and keep shooting.
 
#21
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coues7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recommend a Innovative Technologies die for resizing all the way to belt.

Scott</div></div>




or this.................
MVC-032S-1.jpg
 
#22
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

"I tested exactly 1 (read: one) set. It gave me runout, I didn't like it. "

As I said, I don't doubt your word. I just suspected it was from a single example.

Thing is, statistically we know one example of anything means nothing except for that one unit. It certainly may affect how we feel about something but it doesn't prove anything at all about the brand. You might have used their next die set off the same production line and gotten great results; then you would have forever proclaimed RCBS to be the greatest. Both extremes would be an incorrect judgement of the brand but...that's the way it goes. And I've never found the "best" sizer to accompany the "best" seater in any given set, that's why I have mixed and rematched sets.

Shooting to 2000 yards is rather demanding. Not only would no one reasonably suggest RCBS dies for that but also Hornady, Lyman, Lee and a couple of dozen old but very good dies that are no longer made. Meaning only that your present shooting game isn't in the proper relm of common dies but that's not a valid slam against any of them is it?

My point of my die selections was to convey that we can't simply buy the right brand or pay the right price and expect everything will automatically be great. I fully concur that the choice of a body die (anyone's) and the Lee Collet neck sizers plus Forster or Redding seaters usually produces great work, <span style="text-decoration: underline">on average</span>. But even they need good case necks. No dies can make straight ammo in bad necks, so we can't seperate the need for both good tools AND good methods.

What's amusing here (to me anyway) is I'm usually defending Lee stuff againist unfair judgements, think this is the first time I've felt a need to defend RCBS!
 
#23
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I tested exactly 1 (read: one) set. It gave me runout, I didn't like it. "

As I said, I don't doubt your word. I just suspected it was from a single example.

Thing is, statistically we know one example of anything means nothing except for that one unit. It certainly may affect how we feel about something but it doesn't prove anything at all about the brand. You might have used their next die set off the same production line and gotten great results; then you would have forever proclaimed RCBS to be the greatest. Both extremes would be an incorrect judgement of the brand but...that's the way it goes. And I've never found the "best" sizer to accompany the "best" seater in any given set, that's why I have mixed and rematched sets.

Shooting to 2000 yards is rather demanding. Not only would no one reasonably suggest RCBS dies for that but also Hornady, Lyman, Lee and a couple of dozen old but very good dies that are no longer made. Meaning only that your present shooting game isn't in the proper relm of common dies but that's not a valid slam against any of them is it?

My point of my die selections was to convey that we can't simply buy the right brand or pay the right price and expect everything will automatically be great. I fully concur that the choice of a body die (anyone's) and the Lee Collet neck sizers plus Forster or Redding seaters usually produces great work, <span style="text-decoration: underline">on average</span>. But even they need good case necks. No dies can make straight ammo in bad necks, so we can't seperate the need for both good tools AND good methods.

What's amusing here (to me anyway) is I'm usually defending Lee stuff againist unfair judgements, think this is the first time I've felt a need to defend RCBS! </div></div>

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

This doesn't even justify a response. (Oh, wait... I did respond... sometimes I <span style="font-weight: bold">just </span>can't help myself)

Whatever you want to think. You're the expert...

John
 
#24
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

From a hunting stand point, I have shot 180's 200's and the Berger 210 vld's. The other weights were Accubonds and Partitions. I find that the 210 Berger vld once you get it tweeked shoots better and certainly bucks the wind better than any of the others. I also use a Lee collet neck sizer, Redding body die and Redding comp seater. I use the body die just enough so I can feel a little resistance on the bolt handle near the bottom of the throw. Good Luck
 
#25
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

I'm having pretty good results with the collet die and redding body die and redding comp seating die and, I'm loading the 208gr A-Max.

Taking the rifle out last weekend to print my first set of groups with theh a-max so, I ran the bullet .010 into the lands and bumped my charge of H1000 up .5gr from my SMK 220gr load and, my first 5 shot group printed .32" so, I stopped there. I need to print more groups but, the load is already pretty stout and, seating depth is in the lands for this load and, I was at a .010 jump before and, now I'm .010 jammed so, I didn't want to push it too much.

I came home and pulled the rest.

I'm going out to the 1000yd range tomorrow to shoot some but, it's going to suck with 20mph wind. LOL
 
#26
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

I think there is a lot of good info here.

What I have done for now is this:
Load all my cases with 77 grains H-1000 except 20. Those I loaded up 5 each at 77.5, 78, 78.5 and 79. If I should find a node at the range, then I can test the remainder of that load for grouping and pressure.

I think the only downside to that is that once the case stretches, it will hold more powder AND less energy will be exerted on future loads to expanding the case and more energy to pushing the bullet. Guess we will see. Going to be a LONG range day.
 
#27
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

Ogre,
the cases will not stretch enough to hold appreciably more powder. Also, this makes load testing less time consuming for me; take along to the range sized, primed cases, powder, funnel, scale, case block, bullets, press with seater die.

Trickle powder using the thumb and index fingers. Seat bullets without mounting the press, or bolt the press to a 2x6x18 C clamped to a table or bench at the range. If no table, level the scale on the dash for example, and blocks wind interference by closing windows obviously. Being able to load at the range allows me to do much more in an outing.

BTW, you're as full of stuffing as a Christmas turkey. Explicitly, you've been loading for years, just not belted magnums. We'll let you slide on that one. But then the message continues to be you already know it all.

P.S. There are several methods of load development as you know. One is Optimal Charge Weight (OCW), attributed to Dan Newberry. Another is referred to as the "Ladder Test", attrubed to Audette. But there is no test referred to as the OCW Ladder test. No sir.
 
#28
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, you're as full of stuffing as a Christmas turkey. Explicitly, you've been loading for years, just not belted magnums. We'll let you slide on that one. But then the message continues to be you already know it all. </div></div>

I am not sure how to take this. Yes, I have been loading for 10 years. I am a 3 gun, USPSA, IDPA, and now SASS competitor. I understand many of the basics. I have reloaded around 500 rounds for my 308, and I can repeatedly shoot 1/2 at 100 yards, and sub MOA out to 500 yards with my equipment.

As for belted cases, I have only just started. I do apologize for my lack of correct terminology on for loading techniques. I am learning, and am here for guidance, suggestions, and sage advice from truly experienced reloaders.

I am sorry if I seem to "know it all". I put out what knowledge I have gathered. If I put info out that is incorrect, I know someone here will point it out.

Unfortunately, it has snowed here and I can not get out to my range at this time. I will post up results afterwards.

As for taking my reloading gear to the range, I have a small portable table I can take, and that is valuable advice. I will also take cleaning gear to clean between powder charges.

Thanks
 
#29
Re: Loading the 300 win mag for newbs to belted cases

You are a gentleman. The table will be convenient. You might enjoy a book.

Handloading for Competition: Making the Target Larger
Author:Glen D. Zediker
Publisher: Zediker Publishing
Date of Publication: 2001
Number of Pages: 443
Summary of Material:
An in-depth detailed look at handloading for competition discussing everything from equipment selection to load data to loading procedure taken from some of the most knowledgeable people in the shooting world
 
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