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Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

justinbaker

justinbaker

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 11, 2007
561
1
new mexico
I just picked up some175 vld hunting bullets and ifi want them to fit in the mag ill have to jump them at least .181

Anyone jumping them this far?


Iv read the article by Berger that you can jump them up to .130 with good results, just not sure if I should even waste my time


UPDATE

I went out and shot a ladder test at 500 yards this morning.

i started at 41.8 grains up to 44.8 grain varget in .3 increments

coal=2.84

to hit the lands i would need a base to ogive of 2.350
base to ogive= 2.61 so thats a jump of .189

shots 9, 10, 11 show less than in inch of vertical on both targets, and the second target has a "group" of 1 inch

so for now its looking good.

should i do another ladder test in smaller increments say .2 grains around shots (9, 10, 11)(grains 44.2 44.5 44.8)

ill definitely have to move out farther to see any vertical change



DSCN0525.jpg


DSCN0526.jpg
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

Switch to 175smk, load to 2.8 and rock on.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

Try em, tor just try 10 or so at first. Or, load em how you want em (closer) and single feed em. Not what you where looking for maybe but just might work. Good luck either way <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Switch to 175smk, load to 2.8 and rock on. </div></div>I was thinking the same thing but then noticed he mentioned vld hunting bullets.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

iv read that thread. But its good to here you have jumped them that far.


These will be for hunting
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

I'm loading 2.963" oal with 168's in a .308. SAMMI says 2.800". 1/3 moa load. .005" Off lands. Have to single feed but you know the creedo "one shot, one kill.". Also, SAMMI is full of shit in most cases
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

Sorry to hijack, but I've got a question for anyone reading this thread that has used VLD's alot and if we can get a concensus perhaps it will help you, and clear the air for everyone wary of trying Berger.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is there anybody who's found that Berger VLD's won't shoot as well as any other match bullets with a long jump? </span>

I'm asking because I've loaded them in 7 different rifles so far, three 308's, a couple of 260's, a 300 WSM and a 243 and I always load as long as I can while maintaining magazine feeding. In all of them the VLD behaved just like any other match bullet. Several of them had reeeeeaaaaally long freebore, my POF being the longest at 2.325" base to ogive seated at the lands. I've never heard it stated what the <span style="text-decoration: underline">actual</span> effect on accuracy was when jumping VLD's, either by Berger or users. In my old Rem 700 5R (looooong throat)I found that when loaded to mag length the 175 VLD shot just as well as the 175 SMK, and when loaded out to .015" off the lands which was somewhere around 2.950" OAL (I think), they were better than the SMK by a noticeable amount. That bears out to me that they do PREFER to be closer to the lands, but I've never seen them just flat out unuseable due to jump. It's possible I've been lucky, but 7 rifles of different manufacture at a 100% success rate is decisive to me.

I hear all the time about Berger VLD's not liking the jump and not shooting for shit unless jammed, but as stated above that has not been my experience at all and I've never seen any hard evidence as in pics or even hard numbers about group sizes that support the assertion that secant ogives shouldn't be jumped. I'm a good enough shooter to hold 0.6 MOA consistently with a capable rifle and bags, that is the limit of my ability at present, I'm not a world class rifler. This leads me to ask this question:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is Berger's warning of jump sensitivity only valid if you're a benchrester trying to get into the .1's and .2's?</span>
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry to hijack, but I've got a question for anyone reading this thread that has used VLD's alot and if we can get a concensus perhaps it will help you, and clear the air for everyone wary of trying Berger.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is there anybody who's found that Berger VLD's won't shoot as well as any other match bullets with a long jump? </span>

I'm asking because I've loaded them in 7 different rifles so far, three 308's, a couple of 260's, a 300 WSM and a 243 and I always load as long as I can while maintaining magazine feeding. In all of them the VLD behaved just like any other match bullet. Several of them had reeeeeaaaaally long freebore, my POF being the longest at 2.325" base to ogive seated at the lands. I've never heard it stated what the <span style="text-decoration: underline">actual</span> effect on accuracy was when jumping VLD's, either by Berger or users. In my old Rem 700 5R (looooong throat)I found that when loaded to mag length the 175 VLD shot just as well as the 175 SMK, and when loaded out to .015" off the lands which was somewhere around 2.950" OAL (I think), they were better than the SMK by a noticeable amount. That bears out to me that they do PREFER to be closer to the lands, but I've never seen them just flat out unuseable due to jump. It's possible I've been lucky, but 7 rifles of different manufacture at a 100% success rate is decisive to me.

I hear all the time about Berger VLD's not liking the jump and not shooting for shit unless jammed, but as stated above that has not been my experience at all and I've never seen any hard evidence as in pics or even hard numbers about group sizes that support the assertion that secant ogives shouldn't be jumped. I'm a good enough shooter to hold 0.6 MOA consistently with a capable rifle and bags, that is the limit of my ability at present, I'm not a world class rifler. This leads me to ask this question:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is Berger's warning of jump sensitivity only valid if you're a benchrester trying to get into the .1's and .2's?</span> </div></div>

Obviously, I can only speak for my experience. I'm a Rem 700 guy. MOST 700s I've owned have preferred the bergers to be seated beyond mag length, so that was a no-go for me. I want mine to feed from factory mag with sub moa/sub .3mil @ 100 yds. Thats just me. But we all know EACH RIFLE IS DIFFERENT. I've had great success with Sierra and I like that fact that they take mag feeding into account when developing bullets. Nonetheless, I've seen Bergers, Hornadys, Nosler, Speer, Sierra all do great with a disciplined shooter/reloader.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

What were your actual results when seated at mag length? Group size? Shotgun pattern like the Indian surplus 308 I've shot?

That's what I'm after with my question. I'm wondering if there's anyone out there that was unable to get similar performance to other match bullets that can tie it to long jumps with quantitative numbers. Maybe I should call Berger tomorrow.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

Wouldn't group any better than 1.25-1.5 in @ 100 yds at mag length.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

That 44.2 - 44.8 node looks good. You could do a smaller increment test in that node if you wanted. If it were me I probably wouldn't but I'm lazy and despise load workups. I'd probably pick the 44.5 grain load as being middle of the node and try it at range. If it grouped decent I'd change seating depth by .005" increments up and down(whatever will fit in the mag, and shorter than mag length may be the ticket for consistency), and go with the best out of those results if I found them acceptable.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

Just an observation. OP you stated that the cartridge over all length was 2.84 and that to the ogive was 2.61. How do you come up with a jump of .189?
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just an observation. OP you stated that the cartridge over all length was 2.84 and that to the ogive was 2.61. How do you come up with a jump of .189? </div></div>


sorry i should have said to reach the lands i would need a base to ogive of 2.350

2.350 minus 2.161= .189
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, what is the distance to the lands? </div></div>



the distance to the lands means how far i would have to seat the bullet where the ogive would be touching the lands.
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

the reason i said the coal of 2.84 is to show i was keeping it under mag length
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your jumping a175VLD .189 from the lands at 2.61 you have the tightest chamber I have ever heard of. Not even factory. </div></div>


no the 2.61 is measuring from the base to the ogive. not the total length

total length is 2.84


its a factory 700, so its a very long throat
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Absolutely, But you jumping from 2.61 to the lands. Without knowing the lands distance you can't know the jump.
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a Hornady gauge to check mine.
</div></div>


i use the hornady as well.

i think we are just confusing eachother

the distance to the lands is 2.350 from the ogive
 
Re: Looooonnnngggg Jumping berger 308 175

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">correct, but your jumping from the ogive not the tip of the bullet
</div></div>


yes i know. so to recap

Case Overall Length = 2.84

case base to ogive =2.161

if i wanted to touch the lands it would need a base to ogive of 2.350


so thats a difference of .189 so im jumping them that far to the lands

am i thinking about this completely wrong?
now you have me questioning my sanity
crazy.gif
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your jump is from the ogive to the lands of the barrel. A new remmy chamber is tight at 2.95. Might started life at that it's now at 3.17. If your ogive is at 2.35 and your lands are at 3.17. the bullet doesn't touch the lands until the ogive hits them hence 3.17 - 2.35. </div></div>


your ogive is at 3.17 or is that what your COAL would be if you were touching the lands?


for me if im touching the lands with the 175 VLD then my coal is somewhere around 3.2
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do me a favor, measure the length of a bullet. </div></div>



bullet length is 1.298
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

your seating them over a half inch in the case .508 if your cases are trimmed to 2.05.
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">your jump them over an inch. </div></div>

please explain how?

i admit im not the most seasoned handloader. i have only been reloading for precision for a little over a year. so i am all ears if im calculating something wrong
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">your seating them over a half inch in the case .508 if your cases are trimmed to 2.05. </div></div>


brass is at 2.15
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude, trim your cases. LOL!
</div></div>


dont need to with a a factory remy chamber. at least not until 2.04 or so. iv measured with a chamber length guage

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the lands are 3.2 when you jam the Bullet using the Hornady gauge correct? </div></div>

no measuring from the base to the ogive its 2.350


the over all length is at about 3.02
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

your cartridge when measured to the ogive you said is 2.16 correct?
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">your cartridge when measured to the ogive you said is 2.16 correct? </div></div>


haha there is our problem. in the OP i said 2.61, in a couple of other posts i said 2.16


So the correct measurement is 2.61 base to ogive
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

Okay, now I'm confused. LOL! load up the same grains of SHOT #10 +/-.2 and see how they group. shoot if it works who cares. lol
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, now I'm confused. LOL! load up the same grains of SHOT #10 +/-.2 and see how they group. shoot if it works who cares. lol </div></div>



for a while there you really had me questioning everything iv been doing for the last year.


so do you agree with me now that its a .189 jump?
or am i still nuts
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ol' F.D.H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2.61 to the ogive makes me think your COAL is about 3.05 </div></div>


fuck me, disregard my lasts few posts and give me a few minutes....
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

2.61 to ogive, 2.35 to lands makes it look like your jamming them .3 of an inch. LOL!
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

I may have gotten my numbers off also, the 3.2 was COAL not ogive to the lands. Ogive to the lands - ogive of the cartridge is the jump.
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

okay so here are pics of all the measurements. you tell me what the jump is


this is the measurement with hornady guage showing the bullet jammed

DSCN0535.jpg



and here is what the COAL would be
DSCN0532.jpg




here is the hornady measurement with the loads i shot
DSCN0533.jpg


and the COAL of the loads i shot
DSCN0531.jpg
 
Re: Long Jumping berger 308 175 UPDATE with ladder tes

so if ogive to the lands is 2.61 - 2.35 the jump would be 2.61-2.35 or .26 little over a quarter inch. Like I said I'm half looney sometimes. LOL! Luckily I'm not reloading tonight. lol!
 
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