Looking for info from AF Service Members

[3006spokane]

Alittle background first here probably would so I'll start there. My mom is the 92nd Force Support Sqdrn Commander's executive assistant and thus sees TONS of new airmen come through her squadron. She tends to treat many of them like they are her kids and hates to see them fail at the simple and not so simple tasks.

Beings that Force Support now includes the Prior SVS (Services) Squaron a lot of the troops don't know squat about shooting and that causes problems for them...........especially given the overseas situation......

So,........she came to me this week asking a favor of me. She asked if I would be able to take a few of her troops out to help them with the M9 and M16 qualification b/c they either failed or barely qualified. Beings that I cannot join the military due to diabetes I have always felt I open to helping service members where I can.

Here is my question to you current servicemen and retired even......Can someone provide me what the basic rules and standards are for Air Force qualifications on the M9 and M16? I'd hate to go through techniques with these troops just to be teaching them something that is not standard for the Air Force.


Thanks in advance and if this is a dumb question sorry, thought this would be the best place to ask given the background many of you have.

 

[JoshAston]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

First, they need to know the four rules.

Second, they need to know how to clear their weapons. AF clearing procedures are simple. Muzzle in the clearing barrel, drop the magazine, try to put the weapon on safe, lock the bolt/slide to the rear, inspect the chamber, check the safety again or put it on safe if it wouldn't go earlier.

They need to know loading procedures from a cleared weapon.
- M16. Release the bolt, insert magazine, check safety, attempt to pull trigger. If the hammer drops when you pull the trigger, obviously something is wrong, clear the weapon back out and turn it back in.
- M9. Insert magazine, drop the slide, place weapon on fire, holster. Leaves you with a round in the chamber, weapon on fire.

They need to know to keep their weapon level and pointed down range at all times unless holstered.

Fundamentals of shooting, focus on the front sight, trigger squeeze, etc.

They'll be shooting at 7, 15, and 21 meters for the M9 at a 20"x40" green ernie. There are two circles penned in on the target that aren't visible from a distance. One in the head (6") and one center mass (10"). You aren't required to put any rounds in either circle to qualify, but you are to get expert. 35 rds on target qualifies you. 41 on target with 25 center mass and 6 in the head gets you expert. There's a practice phase also, the circles are chalked in for practice so that you can get an idea where they'll be during qual. Shooting is done from Weaver, Left and Right Barricade, Over Barricade, and Kneeling Barricade. You can usually get away with Isosceles instead of Weaver, but Weaver is what's taught.

All firing for M16 will be done at 21 meters. They'll zero on this target.

Then they'll fire practice at this target, side 2.

Finally, the portion that actually counts for qual is this one, side 2 once again.

Practice and qual will be fired from Prone Supported, Prone Supported (Gasmask), Prone Unsupported, Kneeling Supported, and Over Barricade. Qual score depends on arming group. The highest minimum is 32 hits. 43-50 hits will get you expert. If the shot breaks black it's a hit.

 

[i_Adam_i18]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

Concentrate on breathing and trigger squeeze. Find out what position the individual does the worst at, and work on that. It was kneeling for me, just didn't feel stable.

and hopefully someone has an AR with iron sights because thats probably what they'll be using if they're not SF.

 

[3006spokane]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

Great! Thanks for all of the info Josh. This helps out a ton as the KC pilot friend of mine was only able to provide minimal info when I asked.

Any chances of finding those target docs in full size? I probably don't really the officials and could make them but why not try and keep it simple.

Once again thanks for the help. I'm sure the biggest problem these kids are having is stance and breathing since none of them have shot before and well lol they are all cooks so.........

I'll give an update after this weekend.



Oh and just thought of this. As far as Milspec Ammo goes, what should I expect to use that is commercially available? I don't want to instruct them on shitting ammo just so it's cheap. I'd rather replicate this as close as possible.

and I do have an iron sites AR but its in M4gery so it's gonna feel different for them.

 

[3006spokane]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

after looking around online I came across this and was wondering if this would suffice for the M9

I also found where I can purchase the M16 targets as well so again thanks a lot for making this much easier.

 

[JoshAston]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

M9 targets

M16A2 zero

M16 Qual targets

M16 practice targets

Target backers.

The zero target is the only one that's small enough to print out on regular paper. I'm sure there's a downloadable file of it somewhere, don't know where though.

And one correction to my earlier post, it's 25 meters, not 21. That's for M16 and M9.

ETA: The M9 targets come blank, we draw the circles on them. We use a backer with a 10" cutout at center mass and a 6" cutout on the head as a stencil. Chalk for the practice, pen or pencil for qual.

 

[SgtKope]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3006Spokane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and just thought of this. As far as Milspec Ammo goes, what should I expect to use that is commercially available? I don't want to instruct them on shitting ammo just so it's cheap. I'd rather replicate this as close as possible. </div></div>

Just make sure no commercial ammo is fired thru military weapons...Big No No.

 

[USAF1A8]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

JIC... I buy practice targets from letargets.com, they had a run of qual targets that the ink was too shiny on and unsuitable so there were practicaly giving away for .10 a piece if i remember correctly - bought 200 of them. They offer all branch qual targets and some other fun ones as well, in case someone was willing to put up some cash for it.

When I qual'ed M9, M16, and M4 one thing i wished i knew before hand was the lack of actual marksmanship training MY unit actually did. Being aircrew we don't get a lot, nothing against CATM anywhere but here, but my guys were pretty much clueless. I'd attempt the exact course of fire outlined in AFI 36-2226, I beleive. You can get it from e publishings online or just google search it.

 

[3006spokane]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SgtKope</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3006Spokane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and just thought of this. As far as Milspec Ammo goes, what should I expect to use that is commercially available? I don't want to instruct them on shitting ammo just so it's cheap. I'd rather replicate this as close as possible. </div></div>

Just make sure no commercial ammo is fired thru military weapons...Big No No. </div></div>


No worries there. These are my personal firearms

 

[JoshAston]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShallowGrave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'd attempt the exact course of fire outlined in AFI 36-2226, I beleive. You can get it from e publishings online or just google search it. </div></div>

AFMAN 36-2227v1

 

[3006spokane]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

Thanks, I just downloaded the PDF and was reading through it. This should help a lot too.

 

[USAF1A8]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

I was close enough for government work

 

[436topcop]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

Just another note for you - make sure those shots count at the 7m line for M9. If you look close you can see the pencil drawn circle at that range and then just use the holes to help you aim at the other 2 lines.

 

[wefite4u]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

If i read one of the replies correctly, someone told him to have the airmen who can not shoot well to load the M9, take it off safe, and holster it. It may just be me but that sounds like a very bad idea. I am an active duty Marine and i use to teach rifle and pistol marksmanship. Having inexperienced people draw a loaded, non-safed weapon from a holster is just asking to have someone either shoot them self, the person next to them, or at very least put a round into the ground.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

I qual'd last year with the m9. We were instructed after our three shots, prior to reholstering you need to de-cock the hammer. Saftey can be left on fire, but the weapon needs to be in double action mode for the first pull of the trigger, then shots 2 and 3 are made in single action.

make sure you have them shoot all rounds two to the chest one to the head. (you don't have to in order to qualify, but that is the method they teach at CATM)

The last distance at 25m is shot supported off a rest center mass only. I don't shoot well off the rest but that's what they had us do.

 

[3006spokane]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wefite4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If i read one of the replies correctly, someone told him to have the airmen who can not shoot well to load the M9, take it off safe, and holster it. It may just be me but that sounds like a very bad idea. I am an active duty Marine and i use to teach rifle and pistol marksmanship. Having inexperienced people draw a loaded, non-safed weapon from a holster is just asking to have someone either shoot them self, the person next to them, or at very least put a round into the ground. </div></div>
Don't worry. I saw this and thought it was a bad idea as well.

Overall it went very well. The kid who needed help on the M9 improved a ton by just relaxing his breathing. His next biggest problem was he was tensing up his shoulders which was causing his wrist to turn downward. I haven't heard back how he did.

The kid who needed help on the M16 was fairly similar. We discovered that likely a big part of his problem were the safety glasses provided during his training. Apparently they were scratched and hazy. He shot much better with a set that I had bought from Clothing Sales awhile back. We also worked on his breathing quite a bit as well and helped him get a rhythm. He shot well enough that if it was official he would have easily qual'd.

Both are headed to the sandbox shortly so that was good enough for now. When they come back I'll work with them some more to see if they can't achieve expert.

 

[USAF1A8]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3006Spokane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wefite4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If i read one of the replies correctly, someone told him to have the airmen who can not shoot well to load the M9, take it off safe, and holster it. It may just be me but that sounds like a very bad idea. I am an active duty Marine and i use to teach rifle and pistol marksmanship. Having inexperienced people draw a loaded, non-safed weapon from a holster is just asking to have someone either shoot them self, the person next to them, or at very least put a round into the ground. </div></div>
Don't worry. I saw this and thought it was a bad idea as well.

Overall it went very well. The kid who needed help on the M9 improved a ton by just relaxing his breathing. His next biggest problem was he was tensing up his shoulders which was causing his wrist to turn downward. I haven't heard back how he did.

The kid who needed help on the M16 was fairly similar. We discovered that likely a big part of his problem were the safety glasses provided during his training. Apparently they were scratched and hazy. He shot much better with a set that I had bought from Clothing Sales awhile back. We also worked on his breathing quite a bit as well and helped him get a rhythm. He shot well enough that if it was official he would have easily qual'd.

Both are headed to the sandbox shortly so that was good enough for now. When they come back I'll work with them some more to see if they can't achieve expert. </div></div>

Realize that is the way all USAF members carry that weapon at all times and thats the way his CATM instructors will direct him through the course of fire. Of course, follow that procedure correctly- load while on safe, take of safe and holster. The weapon isn't in single action at that point since the load was done on safe- the hammer stays forward. The M9 is carried chambered and on fire all the time with very few exceptions. Train the way you fight- thats the mentality.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

Hammer the fundamentals of marksmanship into them!
Steady position
Sight picture
Breath control/breathing
Trigger squeeze

Just my .02

 

[popeyecop]

Re: Looking for info from AF Service Members

I work on the range and am a Combat Arms Instructor, read through the two AFI's and you will have all the info you need. You will want to look for is AFQC Air Force Qual Course and TRQC Tactical Rifle Qual Course.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoshAston</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShallowGrave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'd attempt the exact course of fire outlined in AFI 36-2226, I beleive. You can get it from e publishings online or just google search it. </div></div>

AFMAN 36-2227v1</div></div>