- Thread starter gray1974
- Start date
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
40 gr of benchmark topped off with a 125 sierra spitzer
it may be a little faster than the managed recoil but not a lot if i were you i would look into 110 gr bullets those can be toned down alot
40 gr of benchmark topped off with a 125 sierra spitzer
it may be a little faster than the managed recoil but not a lot if i were you i would look into 110 gr bullets those can be toned down alot
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
Lighter charges of faster powders would seem to be the answer here. There is also the newer Sierra 135gr MatchKing to consider.
You could use a starting load of about 40gr of Benchmark, or perhaps 42-43gr of IMR-4064.
I'm thinking these might be a little 'snappier' than the 125gr Remmy loads, but perhaps a small progression might be acceptable. The SMK has the potential for improved accuracy, which could help to light the fire a little brighter.
Greg
Lighter charges of faster powders would seem to be the answer here. There is also the newer Sierra 135gr MatchKing to consider.
You could use a starting load of about 40gr of Benchmark, or perhaps 42-43gr of IMR-4064.
I'm thinking these might be a little 'snappier' than the 125gr Remmy loads, but perhaps a small progression might be acceptable. The SMK has the potential for improved accuracy, which could help to light the fire a little brighter.
Greg
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I would like to try 125 grain for whitetail hunting and 110 grain for target practice. I found some Remington 30 carbine 110 grain jacketed soft points in midway on sale. Is there anything wrong with loading a carbine bullet in a 308 since I will be keeping the velocity to a minimum?
I would like to try 125 grain for whitetail hunting and 110 grain for target practice. I found some Remington 30 carbine 110 grain jacketed soft points in midway on sale. Is there anything wrong with loading a carbine bullet in a 308 since I will be keeping the velocity to a minimum?
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I worked up a nice light load with hornady's 110 sp bullet using IMR 3031. It is accurate to 200yds in my ar 308. Start off with 39.6 and work up. I stayed at 40.5 grs for my load.
I worked up a nice light load with hornady's 110 sp bullet using IMR 3031. It is accurate to 200yds in my ar 308. Start off with 39.6 and work up. I stayed at 40.5 grs for my load.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
you can load those 30 carbine bullets , i did that with my 30-06 and unique. I guess its possible the high velocity will tear the jackets up in the barrel , i wouldnt know because i was shooting subsonic loads.
you can load those 30 carbine bullets , i did that with my 30-06 and unique. I guess its possible the high velocity will tear the jackets up in the barrel , i wouldnt know because i was shooting subsonic loads.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I've loaded 110gr Sierra hollowpoints for .308 and for 7.62 x 39. They work fine as long as you don't expect much from them at longer distances.
I would make the suggestion that something chambered in 7.62x39, like a Saiga, could be more ideal for smaller statures. Recoil is far more tolerable, and ammo is cheap and plentiful; and don't pass up the .30 Carbine.
I saw a friend teaching his pre-teen Son with a .30 Carbine just a couple of weeks ago. He was shooting well, and having a lot of fun while doing it. The DCM used to offer them as youth training rifles some decades back.
Greg
I've loaded 110gr Sierra hollowpoints for .308 and for 7.62 x 39. They work fine as long as you don't expect much from them at longer distances.
I would make the suggestion that something chambered in 7.62x39, like a Saiga, could be more ideal for smaller statures. Recoil is far more tolerable, and ammo is cheap and plentiful; and don't pass up the .30 Carbine.
I saw a friend teaching his pre-teen Son with a .30 Carbine just a couple of weeks ago. He was shooting well, and having a lot of fun while doing it. The DCM used to offer them as youth training rifles some decades back.
Greg
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
These are listed under youth loads for the .308 Win.
.308 Winchester (Reduced/Youth Loads - Hodgdon Data) Reloading Data
Case = Winchester
Barrel length = 24"
Primer: Federal 210M
Wt. = 125 gr
Bullet = Nosler Ballistic Tip
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 38.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,592
Remarks: COL: 2.800"; 31,600 cup
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 130
Bullet = Hornady SSP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 37.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,542
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,800 cup
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 135
Bullet = Sierra SP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 36.5
Velocity (FPS) = 2,494
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,500 cup
These are listed under youth loads for the .308 Win.
.308 Winchester (Reduced/Youth Loads - Hodgdon Data) Reloading Data
Case = Winchester
Barrel length = 24"
Primer: Federal 210M
Wt. = 125 gr
Bullet = Nosler Ballistic Tip
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 38.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,592
Remarks: COL: 2.800"; 31,600 cup
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 130
Bullet = Hornady SSP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 37.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,542
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,800 cup
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 135
Bullet = Sierra SP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 36.5
Velocity (FPS) = 2,494
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,500 cup
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
You may look into loads using Blue Dot pistol powder for the .308. I see that there is quite a bit of information out there for it. I've been very successful using it in my .223 and accuracy didn't seem to suffer much if at all, POI was much lower due to the loss of velocity but that is to be expected.
You may look into loads using Blue Dot pistol powder for the .308. I see that there is quite a bit of information out there for it. I've been very successful using it in my .223 and accuracy didn't seem to suffer much if at all, POI was much lower due to the loss of velocity but that is to be expected.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Linkless</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may look into loads using Blue Dot pistol powder for the .308. I see that there is quite a bit of information out there for it. I've been very successful using it in my .223 and accuracy didn't seem to suffer much if at all, POI was much lower due to the loss of velocity but that is to be expected. </div></div>
Please do not give advice like this. Blue Dot is an extremely tricky and dangerous powder when it is used in applications that it was not specifically intended. The risk will NEVER outweigh any possible convoluted benefit someone may think they can acheive.
OP, Speer used to list loads for the 308 using SR4759 that were perfect for what you want to accomplish. I have shot SR4759 in lots of IHMSA loads and they are way mild. This powder is SPECIFICALLY designed for the purpose of reduced loads and is well tested and safe for its intended purpose. I will see If I can find my old Speer book and send you the loads tomorrow morning when I get off work.
PS:
I did Google Fu the data and here it is:
308Win 25gr SR4759 1925fps 150gr SpeerRN, this data is directly from #13 manual.
308Win 27.5gr SR4759 2325fps 150gr Core-Lokt. I cannot vouch for this load but it looks like it may be the actual load Remington uses in their managed recoil load.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Linkless</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may look into loads using Blue Dot pistol powder for the .308. I see that there is quite a bit of information out there for it. I've been very successful using it in my .223 and accuracy didn't seem to suffer much if at all, POI was much lower due to the loss of velocity but that is to be expected. </div></div>
Please do not give advice like this. Blue Dot is an extremely tricky and dangerous powder when it is used in applications that it was not specifically intended. The risk will NEVER outweigh any possible convoluted benefit someone may think they can acheive.
OP, Speer used to list loads for the 308 using SR4759 that were perfect for what you want to accomplish. I have shot SR4759 in lots of IHMSA loads and they are way mild. This powder is SPECIFICALLY designed for the purpose of reduced loads and is well tested and safe for its intended purpose. I will see If I can find my old Speer book and send you the loads tomorrow morning when I get off work.
PS:
I did Google Fu the data and here it is:
308Win 25gr SR4759 1925fps 150gr SpeerRN, this data is directly from #13 manual.
308Win 27.5gr SR4759 2325fps 150gr Core-Lokt. I cannot vouch for this load but it looks like it may be the actual load Remington uses in their managed recoil load.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
Have you considered a brake?
Have you considered a brake?
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
Yes. I built and installed one already. I know a break plus managed recoil rounds sounds like overkill, but as long as he is shooting it I will do whatever it takes. I really enjoy him being out there with me.
Yes. I built and installed one already. I know a break plus managed recoil rounds sounds like overkill, but as long as he is shooting it I will do whatever it takes. I really enjoy him being out there with me.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
IMR Trail Boss was designed to use for reduced loads.
Here's the link from IMR: Trail Boss Reduce loads
I'm not sure how fast you want the bullets to go, but when I was working up subs in .308, Trail Boss gave very consistent POI despite about 2.5 grains difference (12 grains down to 9.5 with 180 grain bullets).
IMR Trail Boss was designed to use for reduced loads.
Here's the link from IMR: Trail Boss Reduce loads
I'm not sure how fast you want the bullets to go, but when I was working up subs in .308, Trail Boss gave very consistent POI despite about 2.5 grains difference (12 grains down to 9.5 with 180 grain bullets).
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 244</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IMR Trail Boss was designed to use for reduced loads.
Here's the link from IMR: Trail Boss Reduce loads
I'm not sure how fast you want the bullets to go, but when I was working up subs in .308, Trail Boss gave very consistent POI despite about 2.5 grains difference (12 grains down to 9.5 with 180 grain bullets).</div></div>
I don't really care about the speed as long as the recoil is light. I am wanting a target load just to let him practice with the gun before deer season.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 244</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IMR Trail Boss was designed to use for reduced loads.
Here's the link from IMR: Trail Boss Reduce loads
I'm not sure how fast you want the bullets to go, but when I was working up subs in .308, Trail Boss gave very consistent POI despite about 2.5 grains difference (12 grains down to 9.5 with 180 grain bullets).</div></div>
I don't really care about the speed as long as the recoil is light. I am wanting a target load just to let him practice with the gun before deer season.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html
I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
BTW, he is 52 lbs, and shoots off the bipod. With a SWR30 he can and does shoot full power M118LR, but this load above lets him shoot all the clay pidgeons and pieces of them he wants at 100 yds. about 2 moa or less at 100 yds, and 1 mil low. Incidentaly, I use the same load in the 8mm Mauser with a can and 220 gr. Hornady's for a great subsonic load. right at 1000 fps. Very quiet.
BTW, he is 52 lbs, and shoots off the bipod. With a SWR30 he can and does shoot full power M118LR, but this load above lets him shoot all the clay pidgeons and pieces of them he wants at 100 yds. about 2 moa or less at 100 yds, and 1 mil low. Incidentaly, I use the same load in the 8mm Mauser with a can and 220 gr. Hornady's for a great subsonic load. right at 1000 fps. Very quiet.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndPanzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html </div></div>
Yet another person advocating loading up some pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for a reduced load for your CHILD!
There is a reason there are certain powders specifically designed for reduced loads. ANY POWDER CHARGE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU ROOM FOR A DOUBLE CHARGE IS TROUBLE WAITING TO HAPPEN. Powders like Trailboss, SR4759,and XMP5744 have bulk that prevents a double charge, it is often difficult to get a minimum charge in a case and THAT is why these methods are SAFE.
I have been around and yes I have seen these loads used. I actually know a guy who won national championships with Blue Dot 7TCU loads. But that sure didn't make it wise or smart.
There is too much that can go really bad when you start loading pistol powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges, not to mention the fact that these loads are position sensitive almost without exception and as such are not particularly accurate most of the time.
I will say again, whatever convoluted reasoning there is behind loading these types of foolish pistol powder loads, there is nothing to be gained that is worth the rather substantial risk.
If you want mild recoiling SAFE loads then look to the powders I have pointed out above.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndPanzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html </div></div>
Yet another person advocating loading up some pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for a reduced load for your CHILD!
There is a reason there are certain powders specifically designed for reduced loads. ANY POWDER CHARGE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU ROOM FOR A DOUBLE CHARGE IS TROUBLE WAITING TO HAPPEN. Powders like Trailboss, SR4759,and XMP5744 have bulk that prevents a double charge, it is often difficult to get a minimum charge in a case and THAT is why these methods are SAFE.
I have been around and yes I have seen these loads used. I actually know a guy who won national championships with Blue Dot 7TCU loads. But that sure didn't make it wise or smart.
There is too much that can go really bad when you start loading pistol powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges, not to mention the fact that these loads are position sensitive almost without exception and as such are not particularly accurate most of the time.
I will say again, whatever convoluted reasoning there is behind loading these types of foolish pistol powder loads, there is nothing to be gained that is worth the rather substantial risk.
If you want mild recoiling SAFE loads then look to the powders I have pointed out above.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
Just off the cuff I'd say go with the trail boss load and keep your shots short. I would not use pistol powder in a .308 for love nor money an I'm anal about my reloading. What was Forest Gumps Momma's saying......... On second thought, with the lighter bullets I'd like to know how the longer twist barrel would stabilize the smaller pills at reduced velocity? Try it out at 300 yards and let us know your grouping, If you have the ups left for 300.
Just off the cuff I'd say go with the trail boss load and keep your shots short. I would not use pistol powder in a .308 for love nor money an I'm anal about my reloading. What was Forest Gumps Momma's saying......... On second thought, with the lighter bullets I'd like to know how the longer twist barrel would stabilize the smaller pills at reduced velocity? Try it out at 300 yards and let us know your grouping, If you have the ups left for 300.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndPanzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html </div></div>
Yet another person advocating loading up some pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for a reduced load for your CHILD!
There is a reason there are certain powders specifically designed for reduced loads. ANY POWDER CHARGE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU ROOM FOR A DOUBLE CHARGE IS TROUBLE WAITING TO HAPPEN. Powders like Trailboss, SR4759,and XMP5744 have bulk that prevents a double charge, it is often difficult to get a minimum charge in a case and THAT is why these methods are SAFE.
I have been around and yes I have seen these loads used. I actually know a guy who won national championships with Blue Dot 7TCU loads. But that sure didn't make it wise or smart.
There is too much that can go really bad when you start loading pistol powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges, not to mention the fact that these loads are position sensitive almost without exception and as such are not particularly accurate most of the time.
I will say again, whatever convoluted reasoning there is behind loading these types of foolish pistol powder loads, there is nothing to be gained that is worth the rather substantial risk.
If you want mild recoiling SAFE loads then look to the powders I have pointed out above.
</div></div>
I do not know about some of the powders that you are talking about. But I will say that I use titegroup which is a pistol powder. And yes very easy to get a double charge with that powder. It is like everything else in reloading if you dont know what you are doing you will pay the price. I weigh every charge.
Titegroup is insensitive to case position...
Hodgdon has this reloading data for their pistol powder in a .308 bottle necked rifle case imagine that...
If you follow the data and dont push your limits you are safe with it.
Edit: Not sure if the above post are for sub loads or not but that is what I am refering to... Subsonic loads not light recoil loads I have yet to play around with light loads for whatever reason...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndPanzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html </div></div>
Yet another person advocating loading up some pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for a reduced load for your CHILD!
There is a reason there are certain powders specifically designed for reduced loads. ANY POWDER CHARGE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU ROOM FOR A DOUBLE CHARGE IS TROUBLE WAITING TO HAPPEN. Powders like Trailboss, SR4759,and XMP5744 have bulk that prevents a double charge, it is often difficult to get a minimum charge in a case and THAT is why these methods are SAFE.
I have been around and yes I have seen these loads used. I actually know a guy who won national championships with Blue Dot 7TCU loads. But that sure didn't make it wise or smart.
There is too much that can go really bad when you start loading pistol powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges, not to mention the fact that these loads are position sensitive almost without exception and as such are not particularly accurate most of the time.
I will say again, whatever convoluted reasoning there is behind loading these types of foolish pistol powder loads, there is nothing to be gained that is worth the rather substantial risk.
If you want mild recoiling SAFE loads then look to the powders I have pointed out above.
</div></div>
I do not know about some of the powders that you are talking about. But I will say that I use titegroup which is a pistol powder. And yes very easy to get a double charge with that powder. It is like everything else in reloading if you dont know what you are doing you will pay the price. I weigh every charge.
Titegroup is insensitive to case position...
Hodgdon has this reloading data for their pistol powder in a .308 bottle necked rifle case imagine that...
If you follow the data and dont push your limits you are safe with it.
Edit: Not sure if the above post are for sub loads or not but that is what I am refering to... Subsonic loads not light recoil loads I have yet to play around with light loads for whatever reason...
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hntbambi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are listed under youth loads for the .308 Win.
.308 Winchester (Reduced/Youth Loads - Hodgdon Data) Reloading Data
Case = Winchester
Barrel length = 24"
Primer: Federal 210M
<span style="color: #FF0000">
Wt. = 125 gr
Bullet = Nosler Ballistic Tip
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 38.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,592
Remarks: COL: 2.800"; 31,600 cup</span>
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 130
Bullet = Hornady SSP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 37.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,542
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,800 cup
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 135
Bullet = Sierra SP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 36.5
Velocity (FPS) = 2,494
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,500 cup
</div></div>
This is a good list. The one highlighted in red is one that I've used quite a bit. I chopped down a cheap Stevens rifle to weigh about 6 pounds, ready to hunt. It was no fun to shoot with full power loads, but the reduced load was pleasant. I killed one pig and one turkey with it. It gave me 2150 fps out of a 16.5" barrel.
-Dan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hntbambi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are listed under youth loads for the .308 Win.
.308 Winchester (Reduced/Youth Loads - Hodgdon Data) Reloading Data
Case = Winchester
Barrel length = 24"
Primer: Federal 210M
<span style="color: #FF0000">
Wt. = 125 gr
Bullet = Nosler Ballistic Tip
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 38.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,592
Remarks: COL: 2.800"; 31,600 cup</span>
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 130
Bullet = Hornady SSP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 37.0
Velocity (FPS) = 2,542
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,800 cup
________________________________________________________________
Wt. = 135
Bullet = Sierra SP
Powder Manufacturer = Hodgdon
Powder = H-4895
Charge = 36.5
Velocity (FPS) = 2,494
Remarks: COL: 2.700"; 30,500 cup
</div></div>
This is a good list. The one highlighted in red is one that I've used quite a bit. I chopped down a cheap Stevens rifle to weigh about 6 pounds, ready to hunt. It was no fun to shoot with full power loads, but the reduced load was pleasant. I killed one pig and one turkey with it. It gave me 2150 fps out of a 16.5" barrel.
-Dan
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndPanzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html </div></div>
Yet another person advocating loading up some pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for a reduced load for your CHILD!
There is a reason there are certain powders specifically designed for reduced loads. ANY POWDER CHARGE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU ROOM FOR A DOUBLE CHARGE IS TROUBLE WAITING TO HAPPEN. Powders like Trailboss, SR4759,and XMP5744 have bulk that prevents a double charge, it is often difficult to get a minimum charge in a case and THAT is why these methods are SAFE.
I have been around and yes I have seen these loads used. I actually know a guy who won national championships with Blue Dot 7TCU loads. But that sure didn't make it wise or smart.
There is too much that can go really bad when you start loading pistol powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges, not to mention the fact that these loads are position sensitive almost without exception and as such are not particularly accurate most of the time.
I will say again, whatever convoluted reasoning there is behind loading these types of foolish pistol powder loads, there is nothing to be gained that is worth the rather substantial risk.
If you want mild recoiling SAFE loads then look to the powders I have pointed out above.
</div></div>
oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset anyone. Have you ever loaded Red Dot in a 308? If you haven't, then you don't know. Did you read the article on it? Let me guess, no, you didn't. Instead of going into freak out mode on everyone, do some research. Red Dot has been used for YEARS safely and effectively in a wide, wide range of cartridges and bullet weights, and meets your criteria for high bulk powders that make it difficult to double charge....hmmm.. its just not on YOUR list so it must be wrong. Relax, turbo, it's just the internet, its going to be ok, I promise.
You think Lymans cast bullet reloading manual is unsafe? Think C.E. Harris has no Idea what he was talking about? You could double charge my 10.0 load and you know what happens when you put 20.0 in there? Couple of things,
1. you see it right away as it fills the case up enough to see it being different, I use LESS than the recomended 13.0 grains. Put 26.0 grains of Red dot in a 308 case and get back to me. Yeah its just as fluffy and filling as the pistol powders you said were safe because they make double charges nearly impossible.
2. Nothing when it goes off, nothing. No over pressure, no killing kindergartens full of children, nothing. It just goes bang and is faster. Not recommended, but not like a 107mm Rocket landing in your face either.
You think I didn't test this out thouroughly? or think that maybe I pay a little more attention to ammo I make for my son? Seriously? Do you believe that?
I have seen more double charges in pistols and more KB's in pistols than anything else. So is pistol powder dangerous in pistols too? All reloading is dangerous, every round involves risk, factory ammo involves risks. Perfect ammo in a rifle with a hidden flaw is dangerous. Driving to the range even more so. At least with Ammo I make, I can implement controls to reduce the risks. And I accept them. me, I , Myself. Not asking you to or anyone else.
Nobody is saying these are the be all end all loads, just telling the Guy that asked what we use and have had success with. Hes a smart guy, he will make a decision based on all of the inputs he recieves. So I say again, Relax, Turbo, its just the internet, everything will be ok, I promise. And no need to reply, let it die, I already know what your answer is. Its fine. I'm ok with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndPanzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load rounds for my son with the Privi 175's and 10.0 red dot. its from an old article called " The Load " and I have found its perfect for 125's1 175's. velocity from a 24 in 5R is 1375fps with a 175. I have loaded it up to 15.0 and gotten over 2000 fps and thats enough for short range deer in the 150-165 gr weight class, like a ballistic tip.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html </div></div>
Yet another person advocating loading up some pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for a reduced load for your CHILD!
There is a reason there are certain powders specifically designed for reduced loads. ANY POWDER CHARGE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU ROOM FOR A DOUBLE CHARGE IS TROUBLE WAITING TO HAPPEN. Powders like Trailboss, SR4759,and XMP5744 have bulk that prevents a double charge, it is often difficult to get a minimum charge in a case and THAT is why these methods are SAFE.
I have been around and yes I have seen these loads used. I actually know a guy who won national championships with Blue Dot 7TCU loads. But that sure didn't make it wise or smart.
There is too much that can go really bad when you start loading pistol powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges, not to mention the fact that these loads are position sensitive almost without exception and as such are not particularly accurate most of the time.
I will say again, whatever convoluted reasoning there is behind loading these types of foolish pistol powder loads, there is nothing to be gained that is worth the rather substantial risk.
If you want mild recoiling SAFE loads then look to the powders I have pointed out above.
</div></div>
oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset anyone. Have you ever loaded Red Dot in a 308? If you haven't, then you don't know. Did you read the article on it? Let me guess, no, you didn't. Instead of going into freak out mode on everyone, do some research. Red Dot has been used for YEARS safely and effectively in a wide, wide range of cartridges and bullet weights, and meets your criteria for high bulk powders that make it difficult to double charge....hmmm.. its just not on YOUR list so it must be wrong. Relax, turbo, it's just the internet, its going to be ok, I promise.
You think Lymans cast bullet reloading manual is unsafe? Think C.E. Harris has no Idea what he was talking about? You could double charge my 10.0 load and you know what happens when you put 20.0 in there? Couple of things,
1. you see it right away as it fills the case up enough to see it being different, I use LESS than the recomended 13.0 grains. Put 26.0 grains of Red dot in a 308 case and get back to me. Yeah its just as fluffy and filling as the pistol powders you said were safe because they make double charges nearly impossible.
2. Nothing when it goes off, nothing. No over pressure, no killing kindergartens full of children, nothing. It just goes bang and is faster. Not recommended, but not like a 107mm Rocket landing in your face either.
You think I didn't test this out thouroughly? or think that maybe I pay a little more attention to ammo I make for my son? Seriously? Do you believe that?
I have seen more double charges in pistols and more KB's in pistols than anything else. So is pistol powder dangerous in pistols too? All reloading is dangerous, every round involves risk, factory ammo involves risks. Perfect ammo in a rifle with a hidden flaw is dangerous. Driving to the range even more so. At least with Ammo I make, I can implement controls to reduce the risks. And I accept them. me, I , Myself. Not asking you to or anyone else.
Nobody is saying these are the be all end all loads, just telling the Guy that asked what we use and have had success with. Hes a smart guy, he will make a decision based on all of the inputs he recieves. So I say again, Relax, Turbo, its just the internet, everything will be ok, I promise. And no need to reply, let it die, I already know what your answer is. Its fine. I'm ok with it.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just off the cuff I'd say go with the trail boss load and keep your shots short. I would not use pistol powder in a .308 for love nor money an I'm anal about my reloading. What was Forest Gumps Momma's saying......... On second thought, with the lighter bullets I'd like to know how the longer twist barrel would stabilize the smaller pills at reduced velocity? Try it out at 300 yards and let us know your grouping, If you have the ups left for 300. </div></div>I plan on trying trail boss with a 150gr. Hornady first. I looked at the link that 244 posted and it looked mighty interesting. I plan to try some 110gr with the trail boss but I don't have anything but a 100 yard range.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just off the cuff I'd say go with the trail boss load and keep your shots short. I would not use pistol powder in a .308 for love nor money an I'm anal about my reloading. What was Forest Gumps Momma's saying......... On second thought, with the lighter bullets I'd like to know how the longer twist barrel would stabilize the smaller pills at reduced velocity? Try it out at 300 yards and let us know your grouping, If you have the ups left for 300. </div></div>I plan on trying trail boss with a 150gr. Hornady first. I looked at the link that 244 posted and it looked mighty interesting. I plan to try some 110gr with the trail boss but I don't have anything but a 100 yard range.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I have actually used Red Dot in a 30-06. It is the reccomended powder for sabated 22 bullets in the 30 calibers from 30Carb to the 300WM. Yes i have used Red Dot in cast loads from the Lyman manual and found the SR4759 to be a better performer there as well. No I did not read any article on using Red Dot in a 308. If that is what you want to do more power to you. This is the same arguement I have had with the guy using Blue Dot in a 7TCU. You may know what I am going to say and you may just think you do. Red Dot was not designed and developed for reduced loads. The powders I have listed were absolutely designed for that purpose. There are many powders that don't occur on loading charts because they showed unusual or erratic pressure curves. I have done my share of unorthodox loading with powders in bottleneck cartridges in the quest for low recoiling rounds used specifically for shooting standing with a pistol in IHMSA competition. It can be done, it has been done, and it will continue to be done but the real question is whether it should be done. Do you have a pressure barrel and a detailed readout of pressure curves? I know what you are going to say, niether do I. I know that everything is dangerous and I am not some safety freak but I would not load up any pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for my daughter to shoot. I guess I don't think myself perfect and without capacity for a mistake and I have been loading as long as many on this board have been alive.
Yes it is just the internet but it is also the place most new reloaders get their information good or bad.
I recognize your info and know it exists, not denying that fact. Nothing personal is implied here. The OP may be the most responsible reloader on the planet but the hundred other guys that read this may not.
Are pistol powders dangerous in pistols? As a matter of fact some require that you follow directions and load data to the "T" or you will experience some unpleasant results. Some Blue Dot loads were recalled a few years ago beacause they retested the data and with the lot they had at the time those loads were dangerous. Glad I didn't have any of that loaded in a 7TCU.
This all defers back to being a responsible reloader and you make that point well. In reloading sometimes what is good for one is not good for another.
We will agree to disagree and move on. Don't take it personal. I don't think the powders I listed are the end all be all of reduced loads. There are many ways to reduce recoil and in the IHMSA game that I play that is very important for certain applications even for a grown man. With weight limits on the gun you must play with the charge weight and the projectile weight. Yes sometimes that requires unorthodox methods but all I am saying is that should be a last resort.
I have actually used Red Dot in a 30-06. It is the reccomended powder for sabated 22 bullets in the 30 calibers from 30Carb to the 300WM. Yes i have used Red Dot in cast loads from the Lyman manual and found the SR4759 to be a better performer there as well. No I did not read any article on using Red Dot in a 308. If that is what you want to do more power to you. This is the same arguement I have had with the guy using Blue Dot in a 7TCU. You may know what I am going to say and you may just think you do. Red Dot was not designed and developed for reduced loads. The powders I have listed were absolutely designed for that purpose. There are many powders that don't occur on loading charts because they showed unusual or erratic pressure curves. I have done my share of unorthodox loading with powders in bottleneck cartridges in the quest for low recoiling rounds used specifically for shooting standing with a pistol in IHMSA competition. It can be done, it has been done, and it will continue to be done but the real question is whether it should be done. Do you have a pressure barrel and a detailed readout of pressure curves? I know what you are going to say, niether do I. I know that everything is dangerous and I am not some safety freak but I would not load up any pistol powder in a bottleneck rifle cartridge for my daughter to shoot. I guess I don't think myself perfect and without capacity for a mistake and I have been loading as long as many on this board have been alive.
Yes it is just the internet but it is also the place most new reloaders get their information good or bad.
I recognize your info and know it exists, not denying that fact. Nothing personal is implied here. The OP may be the most responsible reloader on the planet but the hundred other guys that read this may not.
Are pistol powders dangerous in pistols? As a matter of fact some require that you follow directions and load data to the "T" or you will experience some unpleasant results. Some Blue Dot loads were recalled a few years ago beacause they retested the data and with the lot they had at the time those loads were dangerous. Glad I didn't have any of that loaded in a 7TCU.
This all defers back to being a responsible reloader and you make that point well. In reloading sometimes what is good for one is not good for another.
We will agree to disagree and move on. Don't take it personal. I don't think the powders I listed are the end all be all of reduced loads. There are many ways to reduce recoil and in the IHMSA game that I play that is very important for certain applications even for a grown man. With weight limits on the gun you must play with the charge weight and the projectile weight. Yes sometimes that requires unorthodox methods but all I am saying is that should be a last resort.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuck1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just off the cuff I'd say go with the trail boss load and keep your shots short. I would not use pistol powder in a .308 for love nor money an I'm anal about my reloading. What was Forest Gumps Momma's saying......... On second thought, with the lighter bullets I'd like to know how the longer twist barrel would stabilize the smaller pills at reduced velocity? Try it out at 300 yards and let us know your grouping, If you have the ups left for 300. </div></div>I plan on trying trail boss with a 150gr. Hornady first. I looked at the link that 244 posted and it looked mighty interesting. I plan to try some 110gr with the trail boss but I don't have anything but a 100 yard range.
</div></div>
FYI, I was using Hornady 180 gr round nose. I wanted the shortest bullet to ensure stabilization, so I chose a RN over a spitzer or BTHP. They printed well and showed no signs of keyholing. I'm no expert by far, but as I understand it the slower the bullet the faster the twist needs to be to ensure stabilization in addition to a longer bullet of a given weight needs a faster twist to stabilize.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuck1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just off the cuff I'd say go with the trail boss load and keep your shots short. I would not use pistol powder in a .308 for love nor money an I'm anal about my reloading. What was Forest Gumps Momma's saying......... On second thought, with the lighter bullets I'd like to know how the longer twist barrel would stabilize the smaller pills at reduced velocity? Try it out at 300 yards and let us know your grouping, If you have the ups left for 300. </div></div>I plan on trying trail boss with a 150gr. Hornady first. I looked at the link that 244 posted and it looked mighty interesting. I plan to try some 110gr with the trail boss but I don't have anything but a 100 yard range.
</div></div>
FYI, I was using Hornady 180 gr round nose. I wanted the shortest bullet to ensure stabilization, so I chose a RN over a spitzer or BTHP. They printed well and showed no signs of keyholing. I'm no expert by far, but as I understand it the slower the bullet the faster the twist needs to be to ensure stabilization in addition to a longer bullet of a given weight needs a faster twist to stabilize.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
The JBM page has a stability estimator as well.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
The JBM page has a stability estimator as well.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I load trailboss for an 9 yo girl and she doesn't stop until she runs out of ammo
recoil is absent
I load trailboss for an 9 yo girl and she doesn't stop until she runs out of ammo
recoil is absent
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
Ditto here. 10.8 grains and a 180 RN (no reason you cant go lighter and work one down if you want, the 30 30 bullets come to mind) work for my out of an 18ish inch barrel.
For higher power loads for the lady and close-ish hunting I use a nosler 125 bt and 4895. Much reduced recoil over a full on 175 load and still drops the deer well. We have used it out to just about 120 yards with good results.
Ditto here. 10.8 grains and a 180 RN (no reason you cant go lighter and work one down if you want, the 30 30 bullets come to mind) work for my out of an 18ish inch barrel.
For higher power loads for the lady and close-ish hunting I use a nosler 125 bt and 4895. Much reduced recoil over a full on 175 load and still drops the deer well. We have used it out to just about 120 yards with good results.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
my range report Tacoma Sportsman's Club 4-3-04
"There was a man there with his 8 year old 70 pound son, who shot an sks, one shot per second and kept on target."
When I was 12 years old, I only weighed 80 pounds.
I could shoot doves sitting on the hopes wire with a 12 gauge, but the shotgun was too heavy for me to hit flying birds. By the time I was 14, I weighed 100 pounds, and could outshoot the adult men at trap.
A kid with a gun is like a kid with a video game, they learn fast.
my range report Tacoma Sportsman's Club 4-3-04
"There was a man there with his 8 year old 70 pound son, who shot an sks, one shot per second and kept on target."
When I was 12 years old, I only weighed 80 pounds.
I could shoot doves sitting on the hopes wire with a 12 gauge, but the shotgun was too heavy for me to hit flying birds. By the time I was 14, I weighed 100 pounds, and could outshoot the adult men at trap.
A kid with a gun is like a kid with a video game, they learn fast.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I would like to thank everyone for their help and input. I settled on Nosler, 150 grain ballistic tip with 9.2 grains of Trail Boss powder. The recoil is extremely light and we are getting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards. I will eventually try 165 grain cast lead bullets but I had the Nosler ballistic tips on the shelf. Thanks again.
I would like to thank everyone for their help and input. I settled on Nosler, 150 grain ballistic tip with 9.2 grains of Trail Boss powder. The recoil is extremely light and we are getting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards. I will eventually try 165 grain cast lead bullets but I had the Nosler ballistic tips on the shelf. Thanks again.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuck1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to thank everyone for their help and input. I settled on Nosler, 150 grain ballistic tip with 9.2 grains of Trail Boss powder. The recoil is extremely light and we are getting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards. I will eventually try 165 grain cast lead bullets but I had the Nosler ballistic tips on the shelf. Thanks again. </div></div>
Do you know what your velocity is? My guess is that it is subsonic by a good margin, possibly around 900 fps, maybe less.
I was having pretty wide velocity changes from round to round with the lighter charges even though they did not print much differently.
Using Black Hills brass "match" prepped with a trim length of 2.005" and Hornady 180 grain jacketed round nose bullets with an OAL of 2.80", I was getting anywhere from 900 to 980 fps with 10.2 grains of Trail Boss with a 22" barrel. I didn't shoot anything less since I had an 80 fps difference in the first three rounds and feared a stuck bullet if the velocity dropped much lower.
HTH
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuck1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to thank everyone for their help and input. I settled on Nosler, 150 grain ballistic tip with 9.2 grains of Trail Boss powder. The recoil is extremely light and we are getting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards. I will eventually try 165 grain cast lead bullets but I had the Nosler ballistic tips on the shelf. Thanks again. </div></div>
Do you know what your velocity is? My guess is that it is subsonic by a good margin, possibly around 900 fps, maybe less.
I was having pretty wide velocity changes from round to round with the lighter charges even though they did not print much differently.
Using Black Hills brass "match" prepped with a trim length of 2.005" and Hornady 180 grain jacketed round nose bullets with an OAL of 2.80", I was getting anywhere from 900 to 980 fps with 10.2 grains of Trail Boss with a 22" barrel. I didn't shoot anything less since I had an 80 fps difference in the first three rounds and feared a stuck bullet if the velocity dropped much lower.
HTH
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
38.5 grains of Varget with a 165 Sierra Gameking HPBT is very mild recoiling and exceedingly accurate in my 21" Rem 700. I'm also using Lapua brass and BR-2 primers, but it hasn't been too finicky. Recoil feels like a 223 to me in my 12lb rifle. I load .02 off lands (mag length for me), but it honestly hasn't been terribly sensitive to OAL either. My 60lb, 8 year old son shoots this load well in my 308, and holds similar groups with it compared to his normal .223. Hope this helps.
Chrono has averaged around 2280 fps.
Stefan
38.5 grains of Varget with a 165 Sierra Gameking HPBT is very mild recoiling and exceedingly accurate in my 21" Rem 700. I'm also using Lapua brass and BR-2 primers, but it hasn't been too finicky. Recoil feels like a 223 to me in my 12lb rifle. I load .02 off lands (mag length for me), but it honestly hasn't been terribly sensitive to OAL either. My 60lb, 8 year old son shoots this load well in my 308, and holds similar groups with it compared to his normal .223. Hope this helps.
Chrono has averaged around 2280 fps.
Stefan
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuck1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I noticed several loads with H4895 listed. Can I substitute IMR4895 for this and expect the same results? </div></div>
You may be able to work up a load with IMR4895 that is equivalent to a particular load with H4895, but they are different powders. Hodgdon's burn rate chart shows IMR4895 is a bit slower than H4895. Hodgdon's load data center shows that maximum pressure and velocity for your 150 grain Nosler BT takes 1.8 grains less H4895 and travels (from their test barrel) 2870 fps vs. a compressed load of IMR4895 traveling at 2920 fps.
I know you are not trying to obtain max. velocity, but be careful substituting one powder for another. Hodgdon's youth loads all use H4895 due to its burn characteristics which allow lighter charges to be used safely. IMR4895 may have similar burn characteristics, but I do not know if it does.
I'd call Hodgdon and ask their recommendations if you already have IMR4895 or are having difficulty obtaining H4895.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chuck1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I noticed several loads with H4895 listed. Can I substitute IMR4895 for this and expect the same results? </div></div>
You may be able to work up a load with IMR4895 that is equivalent to a particular load with H4895, but they are different powders. Hodgdon's burn rate chart shows IMR4895 is a bit slower than H4895. Hodgdon's load data center shows that maximum pressure and velocity for your 150 grain Nosler BT takes 1.8 grains less H4895 and travels (from their test barrel) 2870 fps vs. a compressed load of IMR4895 traveling at 2920 fps.
I know you are not trying to obtain max. velocity, but be careful substituting one powder for another. Hodgdon's youth loads all use H4895 due to its burn characteristics which allow lighter charges to be used safely. IMR4895 may have similar burn characteristics, but I do not know if it does.
I'd call Hodgdon and ask their recommendations if you already have IMR4895 or are having difficulty obtaining H4895.
Re: Low recoil 308 for a child.
I'm a fan of H4895 for reduced loads. I did the same with my 300win mag. 150gr ttsx at ~2600 if my memory serves me right. load was still minute of deer out to 300. there was a article in hogdon's annual magazine about 3 years ago with lots of reduced loads using h4895 and lighter bullets.
I'm a fan of H4895 for reduced loads. I did the same with my 300win mag. 150gr ttsx at ~2600 if my memory serves me right. load was still minute of deer out to 300. there was a article in hogdon's annual magazine about 3 years ago with lots of reduced loads using h4895 and lighter bullets.
Similar threads
