F T/R Competition LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

[jameydan]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Long Range Shooting and Wind Reading Clinic</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Clinic Info: <span style="color: #3333FF"><span style="font-size: 11pt">**** THE CLINIC IS STILL ACCEPTING SHOOTERS - as of 9/3/2011 ****</span></span> </span>

On Friday September 23rd, the All National Guard Marksmanship Team will be instructing a wind reading and long range shooting clinic held at the Deep Creek Range in Missoula, Montana. The clinic will be followed by two days of NRA long range matches. The matches will be held at 800, 900, and 1000yds.

The clinic is open to all shooters interested in improving their skills for competition, long range hunting, or marksmanship. The clinic begins with registration at the 1000yd pavilion at 10:00AM. The clinic will initially begin with classroom instruction (held at the range) followed by coached live fire at the 800 or 900yd firing line. The cost of the clinic is minimal as the All Guard Team provides this service free as part of their mission to improve marksmanship among citizens. The cost is $30 and all proceeds will benefit the Deep Creek Range.

The clinic is held on Friday, and if you are interested in participating but can not make it by the 10:00AM registration, contact me for arrangements for an alternative arrival time.

Bring your rifle (capable to being fired out to 1000yds), 50 rounds of ammo (No 168 grn 308WIN loads please), shooting gear, spotting scope or binoculars, clothing appropriate for the weather, and a lunch. We will have a short break around 12:00 for lunch.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Long Range Match info: <span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="color: #3333FF">**** THE LR AND F-CLASS REGIONAL IS SOLD OUT - as of 9/3/2011 ****
***** See my last post below for info ****</span></span> </span>

On Saturday the 24th, the long range matches begin with the NRA Montana Long Range and F-Class Regional. Shooting on Saturday and Sunday includes firing at 800, 900 and 1000yd firing lines. The suggested total ammo requirement for the matches is 150 rounds.

Because the matches sold out last year and there was a waiting list, <span style="font-weight: bold">PREREGISTRATION IS A MUST! </span> Preregister by contacting me by email.

If you are interested in attending but concerned about gear, we <span style="text-decoration: underline">MAY</span> be able to help with loaner gear, including rifles and ammo. The ammo is sold at cost and is factory match 308 WIN. Contact me in advance for further info.

The Deep Creek Range is located 20 min from Missoula, MT. Use this google maps location to enter your location for directions: Google Maps

Hotel accommodations can be made on nearby N. Reserve St, and camping is great at the range.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Weekend Schedule:</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Friday, September 23rd:</span> All Guard Clinic: 10:00 AM - ~5:00PM. Registration at the 1000yd line pavilion at 10:00AM
<span style="font-weight: bold">Saturday, September 24th:</span> Matches start at 9:15AM. Registration is from 7:30 to 8:30AM at the target pits
<span style="font-weight: bold">Saturday, September 24th:</span> No host BBQ at the camp ground after the matches.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sunday, September 25th:</span> Matches continue with shooters meeting at the target pits at 8:00AM

<span style="font-weight: bold">Fees: </span>
Clinic and all matches: $75, Juniors 18 years old and under: $45
Clinic only: $30, Juniors 18 years old and under: $10
Matches, both days: $55, Juniors 18 years old and under: $40
Match, one day: $35, Juniors 18 years old and under: $20


Contact me at jameydan[at]gmail.com for more info.

Jamey Williams
Match Director
Deep Creek Range, Missoula, MT
Hellgate Civilian Shooters Association

 

[Derrekc]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

What is the reason for not using 168 gr hpbt

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: arcane_deviant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the reason for not using 168 gr hpbt</div></div>

Because there are better bullet choices for going past 800 yards. Depending on the conditions and your location, you could run 168's and do ok but 175's will do everything a 168 will and then some. Just easier to run 175's or heavier and know you are good to 1000 yards.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

I understand that, but I am curious as to why a Match Director would ban a load based on anything other than safety or function.

I have spent a long time shooting 168's at long range. They work. Not as well as other loads, but they do work. 900 is the limit of where I will use them for matches, but you can still learn a hell of a lot about how the wind blows them around.

If you are going to ban them based on the "better" argument......well there are "better" calibers to use for 1000 yard shooting.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that, but I am curious as to why a Match Director would ban a load based on anything other than safety or function.

I have spent a long time shooting 168's at long range. They work. Not as well as other loads, but they do work. 900 is the limit of where I will use them for matches, but you can still learn a hell of a lot about how the wind blows them around.

If you are going to ban them based on the "better" argument......well there are "better" calibers to use for 1000 yard shooting. </div></div>





LW, some places ban the 168s because often they go transonic and or dive into ground just ahead of butts. This causes an unsafe condition for guys pulling targets in the pits.

Most places take a guy off the line for this after afew rounds.

Sounds like the guy running this just wants to avoid the problem all together

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that, but I am curious as to why a Match Director would ban a load based on anything other than safety or function.

I have spent a long time shooting 168's at long range. They work. Not as well as other loads, but they do work. 900 is the limit of where I will use them for matches, but you can still learn a hell of a lot about how the wind blows them around.

If you are going to ban them based on the "better" argument......well there are "better" calibers to use for 1000 yard shooting.</div></div>

I agree with ya on everything you said. It can be done, just takes a little bit of experience and skill. The only other thing that I can think of is since the clinic is only one day, they want a bullet that is "easier" to get to 1000 with better/more predictable results than you might get from a 168. I could be totally wrong but just a thought.

 

[Derrekc]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

Thanks for the info, I'm fairly new to this and was thinking about signing up for the shoot, but I've got a lot learning yet.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

The round tends to go subsonic in most places. AT that particular shooting range in normal Montana weather for that time of year, it will probably remain above the transonic range. However, if it doesn't then you have a bunch of bullets going in the dirt.

I suspect it has to do with range management nowadays as opposed to safety. The guys in the pits have a pretty good berm in front of them. A lot of ranges across the nation, no matter who they are sponsored by, are trying to contain and recycle the lead, copper and anything else harmful to the environment.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

I'm tied up but I'll say something about the All Guard Team

Not the same guys but I bet the same quality of instruction.

Years ago I was coaching the AK NG Rifle team and attended the NGMTU Coaches' Clinic at Camp Robinson. Those guys, besides knowing how to shoot, know how to instruct.

If you can, attend the clinic, you'll (old or new shooter) will learn a lot from those guys.

I just wish I found out about it earlier.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that, but I am curious as to why a Match Director would ban a load based on anything other than safety or function.

I have spent a long time shooting 168's at long range. They work. Not as well as other loads, but they do work. 900 is the limit of where I will use them for matches, but you can still learn a hell of a lot about how the wind blows them around.

If you are going to ban them based on the "better" argument......well there are "better" calibers to use for 1000 yard shooting. </div></div>

Apparently not much time LW, and not when people are also down range not just a piece of steel. Otherwise, part of your claimed extensive knowledge and experience would be just how unpredictable the 168s are coming into the pits, even at higher elevations. It most certainly is a safety issue.

Jamey runs most of the matches for Montana these days and has revived highpower in this state. He has good reason for his rule.

A friend of mine and I went to Hotchkiss a few months ago for a Palma match and he mistakenly grabbed his 168 M14 ammo instead of his 155 Palma ammo. He was all over the place - misses included. This was without knowing he was shooting 168s as he discovered the reason for his problems when we got back and his Palma ammo was sitting right where he left it. I shot next to the All Guard team at 1K yards in a match this spring using M118LR out of the Armalite AR10 National Match rifle, and they had very unpredictable results, going from the center of the target to 6s and misses. This after the team was shooting 197-199s at the 600 yard line. So, the 175 is no magic cure either if the overall quality of the ammo is not there.

I pulled pit for a shooter using an M14 with M852 in a Palma match at 5k feet ASL last in the CRC Palma Championship match I ran in 2010. At 800 they were OK; 900 the snap was weak and variable; at 1k, no snap keyholing, unpredictable all over the target, some berm shots.

As if you were gonna make the trip up there ANYWAY.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

If I was going to put on a long range clinic, stressing wind and other enviormental concerns, I would ban 308/168s also.

How are you suppose to make corrections to a student if his ammo is all over the place and key holing.

Out of respect to the NG MTU, who are donating their time to help us,use something you know will work. Why disrespect them with ammo that is known not to preform at long ranges.

Hard to make wind corrections on ammo that keyholes IF it hits paper.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Apparently not much time LW, and not when people are also down range not just a piece of steel. Otherwise, part of your claimed extensive knowledge and experience would be just how unpredictable the 168s are coming into the pits, even at higher elevations. It most certainly is a safety issue.</div></div>

You are right brother. I don't know shit abought the trajectory of 168gr Sierras even though that is the load that was issued when I was trained on the bolt gun. I most certainly in my entire military career never would have found myself pulling target carriages at the 1000 yard line and marking targets.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As if you were gonna make the trip up there ANYWAY. </div></div>

You are right. I have never flown cross-country to shoot for a day or two. Oh, wait. I have.

Carry on.

 

[jameydan]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

Gentlemen,

Sorry about not following this forum post of mine more closely.

The reason I do not want any 168 308WIN loads is noted by several of the posters above. As a match director, it sucks to tell a guy who paid his match fees, bought his gas, and traveled several hours, that he is unsafe and needs different ammo NOW or remove his gear from the line. This is entirely because of the occasional instability issue with the 168 SMK/NOS when shooting 1000yds. This may be also true with the 168 Hornadys, but I am not familiar with them.

Over the last 4 years, I have witnessed 3 rifles/loads keyhole at 1000yds using the 168's. Fortunately, the last two times this has happened, I have been able to supply the involved shooter with M118LR to finish his matches. The 168 loads when going transonic can be erratic and all over the target. It is somewhat of a safety issue, but it also is terrible for score. Do you want to show up to a match with all the costs involved and have a bad experience? Not all our shooters are experienced and that is my reason behind putting that comment in my match posting. My goals as a match director are to run a well organized safe match, that leaves the shooters thoroughly enjoying the experience. My comment about the 168's is to help prevent potential problems.

Yes, I am aware that many good scores have been fired with the 168's at 1000yds, but I am not eager to deal with the headache they can present, especially in the hands of a newer shooter. If a shooter contacts me about using such a load I will discuss the issues with him and let him decide. With the new 168Berger Hybrids it will be a different story althogther.

German Salazar and others have strongly suggested keeping your bullets above Mach 1.2 to avoid the unpredictable transonic zone althogether. I have talked with some shooters that assumed the transonic zone is mearly dropping to below Mach 1.0 and everything before then is fine. Transonic to me means “around” the sound barrier and Salazar and others feel the safe cushion around this area of unpredicatability is to be at Mach 1.2 or better. Some bullets behave better going thru this transonic zone and some can be iffy. At the Missoula range on a cool morning (we can have freezing temps in the AM and finish a match in the 80’s) the 168SMK fired at 2750fps MV are very marginal at 1000yds with a velocity of Mach 1.066.

So, my rule is not hard, but it is there to deflect potential problems. I welcome comments that illustrate errors in my understanding of the situation.

V/r,

JW

 

[jameydan]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

Marksmen,

The Missoula Long Range and F-Class Regional scheduled for this September 23-25th is sold out with 52 shooters and there is a waiting list forming. It is imperative if you are on the list to shoot and can not make it, let me know so we can free your spot up for another shooter. I am still taking names for the waiting list, so send me an email indicating you wish to be put on the list. The waiting list is fairly small and there are always cancellations, so consider emailing me to get on the waiting list.

The All national Guard Marksmanship Team Long Range Shooting clinic on Sept 23rd still has room for attendees. It is a great opportunity to receive some of the finest long range shooting instruction available. There are 31 attendees signed up with 10+ instructors. Email me for further info about the clinic.

Jamey Williams
jameydan[at]gmail.com

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jamey Williams</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry about not following this forum post of mine more closely.

The reason I do not want any 168 308WIN loads is noted by several of the posters above. ....This is entirely because of the occasional instability issue with the 168 SMK/NOS when shooting 1000yds.</div></div>

Jamey thank you for returning to comment on this.

While I am well aware of the limitations of the 168gr Match King as well as other 168's running similar BC's, I am not sure I understand how it is more of a safety issue than a new shooter firing a 175gr SMK at a less than efficient MV. At 1K bullets are still lobbing in, requiring overhead cover for the pits and new shooters still shoot the hell out of anything downrange.

I realize the desire to make sure everyone has a good time. The banning of a specific match grade bullet just struck me as a bit strange. Especially when no mention was made of MV, energy or even much lower grade bullets.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

I was at the clinic yesterday. Jamey put on a great event. My thanks to him and
his hard work. As well as a few others that donated their time in the pits and
registration tables. The N.G. team were a great bunch of guys. Their wind reading
skills are impressive to say the least. The warm weather made for a great day.
winds were multi directional from 3 to 5 most of the time. They settled a bit more
later in the day and it made shooting the 1000 easy for everyone to get on paper
right away. Thanks again to Ben, our spotter from the Guard team. I am sure the competition this weekend will be a good time for all. And if you ever get a chance
to shoot the Deep Creek range don't miss it, a wonderful facility.

Also a special thanks to the boys at USO. My 14 year old SN3 performed perfectly. And to Berger bullets. The new 87VLD was a near one holer at
300 and at a 1000 was more than impressive. A few rounds were gopher
killers @ 1000. Couldn't be happier for my first 1000 shooting. The
JMB software in the ipod had me within a 1/2 minute vertical at 800 and
1000. Adds a lot of confidence to a newbie at that range.

Let me also add , the guy I was shooting with was a machine with his 300wm.
all but one or two of his shots were in the kill zone for elk, which he was
shooting a standard 700 hunting gun.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

"...(No 168 grn 308WIN loads please)... If a shooter contacts me about using such a load I will discuss the issues with him and let him decide...."



That doesn't sound like a "ban" to me. More like a suggestion, with some good reasoning behind it.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

Can anyone post the weekends match results?

 

[jameydan]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can anyone post the weekends match results? </div></div>

Results link

Things appear to have went very well for all involved with the clinic and the matches. Between the All Guard Team, the clinic attendees and the match competitors, we had over 70 different individuals in attendance over the weekend. The clinic and matches served the shooters well, providing an opportunity to enhance their skills, meet other like-minded shooters, and sharpen their wind reading capabilities. Many of the shooters also went home with great prizes provided by U.S. Tactical Supply and Applied Ballistics The clinic and matches also raised money for the range and money to support juniors and new shooters in our region.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> Clinic Summary: </span>
The clinic was held on Friday before the long range matches began, and we had 55 attendees between the instructors, civilians and National Guard members. The Missoula newspaper sent a reporter and photographer up to the range and did a nice story that made the front page of Saturday's paper: Elite shooters hold long-range marksmanship clinic at Deep Creek range It was a nice overview of the clinic and focused on one of our newer juniors.
The All National Guard Team clinic audience included competitive shooters, Army National Guard sniper teams and long distance hunters. The instruction included some basics followed by coached shooting at the 800 yard and 1000 yard lines. Before the shooting began, the instructors spoke about positions used in sling shooting and F-Class, and the associated gear necessary to be successful in both rifle divisions. They continued with further information on ballistics then on strategies on how to shoot in the wind. The live fire portion of the clinic consisted of 2 shooters to an All Guard Team coach, and the ratio of 2 students to a coach was about right. While one student was shooting the other was able to observe the coaches instructions and suggestions.
After the weekend of shooting Allen Spiker (All Guard Rifle Team NCO), approached me and brought up the suggestion of an advanced clinic for next year. If there ends up being enough interest, this is something we could pursue in conjunction with the All Guard Team.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> Long Range Regional Match Summary: </span>

The Missoula LR and F-Class Regional was held the Saturday and Sunday after the clinic. 51 shooters participated in this 2-day match. This year we were fortunate to have fantastic conditions to shoot in. Because of the great conditions and great scores fired in this match, many of the shooters will be moving up in their respective NRA classifications. Many of the competitors shot personal bests, and like a few times last year, we saw another National Record fall. Last year, Allen Spiker, Bob Evans and Nicole Hagedorn all established NRA National Records for their performances in the Montana LR and F-Class Regional. This year one more record has been eclipsed, with Allen Spiker shooting another record, scoring a 1088-48X (out of 1100 possible). This is a pending record for the long range regional aggregate and it passes the previous record by one X. Allen also won his rifle division - Palma rifle. Great shooting Allen!

There was some fantastic shooting Savage rifles at this match. Matt Waite of Billings, MT took top honors in the scoped class of sling shooters, and David Kynoch of St. Anthony, ID barely won his F-TR division. Both shooters use basically stock LR Savage rifles in 308 WIN. David has won his class the last few years at the Missoula regional. He took a gamble this past week however, when he re-barreled his rifle at the last minute. It paid off, as he squeaked by the second place shooter, Mike Anderson of Helena, MT - by one point.

We had some of the top Canadian shooters come down from both Alberta and B.C. and one of them, Scott Gaalaas (Calgary, AB), ran away with the win in the F-open class.

The weekend of shooting also included some fun down time with a BBQ on Saturday evening, and an awards ceremony on Sunday. The matches this year were sponsored by U.S. Tactical Supply and Applied Ballistics Both sponsors supplied fantastic prizes and we are certainly thankful for their participation in the matches. US tactical Supply gave away several hundred dollars of prizes including shooting mats, data books and clothing. Bryan and Jennifer Litz donated some of Bryan's in-depth and useful Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting books.

This wrapped up a great season of shooting in Missoula, and in our region in general. If you are interested in receiving more info about future clinics and matches in Missoula, contact me by email to be put on my mailing list.



Best,

Jamey Williams
jameydan[at]gmail.com

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: LR Shooting & Wind Reading Clinic Missoula, MT

Thanks Jamey! Shot very well yourself I see.