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ballistic1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 4, 2010
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LaCrescent, MN
I am interested in hearing from anyone who has actual time behind a Lwts-lr..
....How the Lwts-lr performs in the field.
What day optic was tried in tandem with it, and did it hold zero on various optical
magnifications?

Cant seem to find anyone discussing this.
 
All of my sales have been to guys that are not part of the forum. I was hoping someone on here would buy one so they could give a non dealer opinion of it. I have no doubt that they are one of the more bad ass optics ever to be released to the general public. I had to beg them since it showed up in a 2017 LE catalog to release it for order. So far it has blown away my expectations both as a LR CLIP ON and a Stand Alone. Really the best of both worlds which is rare in the thermal game. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
Still have 1 unit waiting for a new home and a few more coming in DEC. L3 has already hinted at not releasing many more of these through EOTECH / GENERAL PUBLIC channels.

Biggest thing that sets this optic apart as a multi use unit is the 2x optical mag with a large beautiful display that reduces to 1x unity in half screen mode.
 
To answer your questions....have shot steel to 500 in CO mode and 600 in stand alone mode. Zero perceivable shift on any of my day optics ( thermal targets at 100 yds are nearly same hole ( see video in my thread). Day optics used have been ..... 3-20 s&B ... 4-20 ZCO..... 4-28 M7XI .....1-8x24 M8XI ..... 5-25 TT..... 4x HAMR...vudu 5-25x50
All of those day optics have been in 1.5-1.55 inch MOUNTS. I'd say top end comfort zone for me in clip on mode is 14x but I'm fairly conservative. In my opinion the sweet spot is 8-9x which for me is a lot of mag through a thermal.
 
To answer your questions....have shot steel to 500 in CO mode and 600 in stand alone mode. Zero perceivable shift on any of my day optics ( thermal targets at 100 yds are nearly same hole ( see video in my thread). Day optics used have been ..... 3-20 s&B ... 4-20 ZCO..... 4-28 M7XI .....1-8x24 M8XI ..... 5-25 TT..... 4x HAMR...vudu 5-25x50
All of those day optics have been in 1.5-1.55 inch MOUNTS. I'd say top end comfort zone for me in clip on mode is 14x but I'm fairly conservative. In my opinion the sweet spot is 8-9x which for me is a lot of mag through a thermal.

Curious to hear your opinion on the Lwts-lr vs T75
 
... .have shot steel to 500 in CO mode ... were you holding or dialing ?

Can you give specifics for a few of the shots please ? Wind direction and strength, what you dialed, what you held ... what the target was, were the impacts on the target were, etc. ? Hard to see all that from where I'm sitting :D
 
Lol ok....I can barely remember what I had for breakfast wig... the steel was all shot with a 14.7 inch 308. 178 gn eldx. Weather was around 85 early texas morning..sun shining on steel wind was calm from what I remember. 1/2 size ipsc steiner m8xi 1-8x24 was on 8x. I use shooter app ...plug in G7s. Shot several with day optic then put thermal on rifle and kept ringing. Dialed elevation

All other optics were used @ 100 yds on thermbright passive etype thermal targets.
edit to add..when I am looking for shifting of POI I prefer to do it at 100yd on a small thermal target patch/target as it takes out most of the environmental and human element. Thermal is often trying to draw fine lines with a marker at long distances since dealing with pixels....especially when using 640 un-cooled units.

I will try and get some video as we discussed. The side shot phone adapter has been a fail.
 
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T75 use for me is limited to some time in 2016ish when I borrowed one from another dealer to show a professional end user.....and some shooting steel with one of FLIR's demo units/Barrett 338 at an event I sponsored.
I remember it not being real usable above 8x because no screen reduction. The color options were not for me.

Stand alone mode was so so with 1x optical and 2x - 4x digital. The Tau 2 core is proven but mediocre imaging wise...... especially in adverse conditions( my opinion). The screen is fairly small ( for CO capabilities) for using as a stand alone. The included 62gn 556 reticle and 147gn 762 reticle were ok ( maybe there have been updates)

I don't remember it having any noticeable shift on several rifles. I think from a mechanical stand-point it is a well proven solid performer.

What I like about the LWTS-LR vs the T75

1. External buttons for gain, FOV, display brightness, polarity, AGC toggle....T75 joystick( but does include a remote IIRC)
2. Imaging is far superior to my eyes on the LWTS AND LWTS-LR.
3. Reticles for stand alone mode are far more advanced if you want them ( milling lines ...spin drift...1 mil wind holds ( horus like almost) M24 7.62 175 SMK...M107....M4 (like standard LWTS) ...m240.... mk19 :) several more
4. Clip on mode is unity half screen to help with FOV.....Stand alone mode is big display at 2x optical.
5. In stand alone mode FOV modes are 640x480 2x 320x240 4x and 240x180 6x so even the final zoom is very usable.
 
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Got one a few weeks ago. It’s amazing! As a stand alone optic , critters are definitely identifiable at 1250 yds at night. Even in daylight conditions I had no problem identifying targets out to 1250 yds. That’s the max at my range.
In clip on mode, in front of a 7x35 ATACR resolution was less than anticipated. Swapped it out for a Zero Comprise 4x20 and observed a huge difference in image quality to about 8 zoom. After about 9x the image resolution begins to drop off. ZCO 5x27 was about the same as the 4x20.
I have not shot behind it yet but should be able to shortly.
There is much to say about this optic, but at this point it definitely lives up to the LR designation. Rugged piece of thermal equipment with extremely good resolution day or night.
 
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Got one a few weeks ago. It’s amazing! As a stand alone optic , critters are definitely identifiable at 1250 yds at night. Even in daylight conditions I had no problem identifying targets out to 1250 yds. That’s the max at my range.
In clip on mode, in front of a 7x35 ATACR resolution was less than anticipated. Swapped it out for a Zero Comprise 4x20 and observed a huge difference in image quality to about 8 zoom. After about 9x the image resolution begins to drop off. ZCO 5x27 was about the same as the 4x20.
I have not shot behind it yet but should be able to shortly.
There is much to say about this optic, but at this point it definitely lives up to the LR designation. Rugged piece of thermal equipment with extremely good resolution day or night.


Excellent.. I look forward to hearing from you
in regards to how it performs in clipon status.
 
Thanks for the input on the LR. The comfort level in clip on mode is always subjective. I would agree that 9x is where it starts to get on the pixelated side for me although I still find it quite usable to 12x especially after ID.

I had MK machining build me some focus throw levers that turned out great. Let me know if you're interested.
20191001_103812.jpg
 
Excellent.. I look forward to hearing from you
in regards to how it performs in clipon status.

Conditions were Friday morning 0800 temp 75F,humidity 60%,wind 8 o’clock 5 to 7 mph, SP 29.45.
Gun was GAP 6.5 Creedmoore AR, 130 gr Berger AR, 43gr H4350, 2810fps.
Range 600yds 3.5mls, 750yds 5.05 mils,1000yds 8.5 mils. A little wind correction which progressed the further we went out. All stayed within a 10 in group.
In front of a ZCO 4x20 in clip on mode there was no appreciable impact shift whatsoever. Scope zoom was 7x to start and 4x to finish.

This was all in daylight conditions using white hot to pick up the steel. I’ll use the M24 reticle and test it as a stand-alone optic next time which has far greater resolution.

Bottom line, no problem making the 1000 yard shot as a clip on thermal. This is a serious piece of hardware that continues to impress.
 
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So the question in my mind is does a guy try to snag one of these or wait and hope we see the utc-x or xii available one day, but at a very high price I'm betting.
 
All of my sales have been to guys that are not part of the forum. I was hoping someone on here would buy one so they could give a non dealer opinion of it. I have no doubt that they are one of the more bad ass optics ever to be released to the general public. I had to beg them since it showed up in a 2017 LE catalog to release it for order. So far it has blown away my expectations both as a LR CLIP ON and a Stand Alone. Really the best of both worlds which is rare in the thermal game. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
Still have 1 unit waiting for a new home and a few more coming in DEC. L3 has already hinted at not releasing many more of these through EOTECH / GENERAL PUBLIC channels.

Biggest thing that sets this optic apart as a multi use unit is the 2x optical mag with a large beautiful display that reduces to 1x unity in half screen mode.
Trade ya a UTC. Then you'll have something to compare to.
 
I'll write up a "IMO" when get chance. Going to try and get this data posted for the night.
 
POI testing.

150 yard 4"steel (far right got heated)

Far left first shot --Day optic only (ZCO 420)
Far right second shot --with LWTS-LR in clipon mode




Then pulled clip-on off, took one shot at 12" steel @ 300 yards. Then placed clip-on back on and took second shot at same steel.
IMG_20191103_165827167.jpg



Conditions: Wind from 3 at 150yd and 2:30 at 300yd. See Kestrel for speed and atmosphere
IMG_20191103_164837877.jpg
IMG_20191103_164728511.jpg
IMG_20191103_164650242.jpg
 
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This one's for Wig. Heated 2/3 IPSC @ 815yds

ZCO 420 @ 8x

IMG_20191103_173420298.jpg
IMG_20191103_173426093.jpg


From 1 o'clock
IMG_20191103_173329770.jpg

IMG_20191103_171305644.jpg
 
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The pictures do seem to illustrate one of the things I was wondering about. 4-6x looks cleaner as a standalone than as a clip on. I'm not sure I like that they shrink the image on the display to achieve 1x so they're basically taking an excellent image and then degrading it by displaying it with 1/4? the pixels it was on before.

This is assuming the sensor and display are 1:1 in regards to resolution at 2x.

Correct me if I'm off base on this.

Either way this is tempting. I might have to get in touch with you downrange.
 
The pictures do seem to illustrate one of the things I was wondering about. 4-6x looks cleaner as a standalone than as a clip on. I'm not sure I like that they shrink the image on the display to achieve 1x so they're basically taking an excellent image and then degrading it by displaying it with 1/4? the pixels it was on before.

This is assuming the sensor and display are 1:1 in regards to resolution at 2x.

Correct me if I'm off base on this.

Either way this is tempting. I might have to get in touch with you downrange.
Did you see my deer video @ 4.5x in clip on mode? If not. I think the difference you're seeing is photography based. Trying to take a pic through a day optic compared to snapping one through the eyepiece in stand alone mode makes a large difference in photo quality you see here on a forum. In talking to the guys at L3H the .5x screen reduction is definitely still 640 fpa pixel count....if it were not you would lose half of the FOV compared to stand alone mode and you do not. It remains the same. Often the pixels on a display and the pixels the fpa/sensor sends out are 2 different animals. Another example would be the pulsar thermion .... a 320x240 sensor sending information to a 1024x768 display. Multiple display pixels per sensor pixel.

 
@newguy2k3v2
Well, there are the physical pixels and the "logical" pixels. I think they are displaying the same number of logical pixels on a smaller number of physical pixels in this case.

To my knowledge, we have not heard, definitely, what the physical display pixel dimensions are. I couldn't even find them for the original LWTS. But 'assuming' they didn't change then maybe worst case we're at 640x480 (at least) .... but all long distance thermal clipon (hecque all clipons) use demagnification to allow us to zoom in farther with the day scope. Some do this optically, some do it with software.

I've tested a setup with a 10x focusing lens in front of a 1024x768 display with a 7x optical demagnification ... and with some "tweaking" have been able to get a decent image from 6x to 24x on a day scope. So the display matters and the lenses on the back end matters. That's where all the magic happens for these long distance thermal clipons !! :)
 
Well, there are the physical pixels and the "logical" pixels. I think they are displaying the same number of logical pixels on a smaller number of physical pixels in this case.

Yes, that could be the case for sure. I've had several conflicting answers from the manufacturer on the display specs (along with others). It definitely does seem like a nicer display than the standard LWTS when I hold them side by side.
 
I was curious so I got out my 3-20 s&b and decided to zoom in and do a pixel count. There are approximately 180 pixels between the edges of the wind holds. I'm sure we can get an approximation if you compare that reticle to the full display picture above......I'm showing around 1080 pixel count horizontally. I'm sure there is a little fudge factor there but either way it is a very high definition display.
 

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To answer your questions....have shot steel to 500 in CO mode and 600 in stand alone mode. Zero perceivable shift on any of my day optics ( thermal targets at 100 yds are nearly same hole ( see video in my thread). Day optics used have been ..... 3-20 s&B ... 4-20 ZCO..... 4-28 M7XI .....1-8x24 M8XI ..... 5-25 TT..... 4x HAMR...vudu 5-25x50
All of those day optics have been in 1.5-1.55 inch MOUNTS. I'd say top end comfort zone for me in clip on mode is 14x but I'm fairly conservative. In my opinion the sweet spot is 8-9x which for me is a lot of mag through a thermal.
Interesting
 
There aren't many options right now for thermal clipons.

The pulsar fxq 38 and 50 are the "low end" ... though they are hunting useable if you work thru the mounting issues, but you're looking at 3x to 5x magnification on the day scope, which for most night hunting is actually plenty. And these are 384 units, but for those who have used them, they are darn good images for "320-ish" units. Street prices are the in $3800 plus or minus range.

==
There are some older armasight apollo/apollo pro units around and those are hunting usable. I started with those. But those FLIR cores are, er, well, not really great. The 336 apollo can do 3x ... and the 640 5x.

==
Then you get up to the SNIPE, the first one I'd actually want to own. I had one for testing a couple of years ago and I squeezed it up to 8x, though most people would probably stop at 6x or 7x. You can also hook them on your helmet as a spotter (they have a dove tail) ... or on your rifle as a clipon (their design purpose) or even as a dedicated scope ... and you can run them on 2x digital if you want more than 1x. They are basically REAPv1s with a collimating lens on back. And they have 12 FOV, which is better for most night hunting, compared to the "long distance" thermal clipons. Street price $8k plus or minus.

==
Then we have the LWTS-LR, which is really the ONLY LDTC we can buy right now. Street price $15k plus or minus.

Their were rumors of FLIR restarting manufacturing on the T75s, but despite numerous "promises" from FLIR management that units were shipping our way, non-such every arrived ... and comms from FLIR did not not sucque.

There are also rumors of Trijicon starting up production on the UTCx again. If these rumors are true, we might hear an announcement at SHOT, and we might hear whether these would be commercially available. If they will be, I'd bet on late summer. Look at the pattern of the Skeets, ,SHOT announcement, shipping commercially in Sept. I'd bet on that sort of timeline. As to pricing, well the original BAE UTCx(s) MSRP was $20,500 IIRC, so probably somewhere between $15k and $20k would be my guess. Street price probably higher than the street price of the LWTS-LR. The UTCx has an FOV of 6 degrees versus the LWTS-LR of 7.4 degrees. So neither are ideal for hog hunting, at least not solo versus a field full of multiple sounders ! :)

==
But back to the point of this post, there just aren't many options in the thermal clipon space. The LWTS-LR owns the LDTC space as the ONLY option, other than used units some of which might be "grey" as they say.

The SNIPE owns the "intermediate" distance space ... and the Pulsars own the low end ...

==
For most hunters the dedicated thermal is a better answer. Usually lower cost all other things being equal (which they never are) ... and the magnification is on the front end (not the back) so no degradation of image due to magnification ... and the weight is less. One dedicated scope weighs less than a clipon PLUS a dedicated scope. The few crazy folks (like me) that want thermal clipons, will just have to live with the few choices available right now and keep hoping for more choices one day !!
:D
 
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Honestly the t75 utcx and lwts-lr are all designed around the same dod requirements.....until you move up to an INOD block3 cooled unit like the CAG guys are running it is really splitting hairs. One unit may do something a little better than the next but overall capabilities are very close. When you compare the 3 you really have to be a little nitpicky to differentiate. The T75 and LWTS-LR are both fulfilling the same contract in Saudi Arabia currently.
 
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Well the UTCx does demagnify with optics, not software, so there is that difference. I don't know what the mag/demg is, but it must be at least 2x, maybe 4x. But I know it isn't 7x cause my test bed can get up to 24x with a 7x demag. But optical demagnification will improve the image at higher magnifications.

I'm going to Madison, WI for XMAS and there's a chance Squibber and I can meet up and run the LWTS-LR and UTCx side by side in the same conditions with both of us there ... that would give us a reasonable comparison.

But then UTCx(s) are just like T75(s) right now ... they're both made out of "UNOBTAINIUM" :cool:
 
Well the UTCx does demagnify with optics, not software, so there is that difference. I don't know what the mag/demg is, but it must be at least 2x, maybe 4x. But I know it isn't 7x cause my test bed can get up to 24x with a 7x demag. But optical demagnification will improve the image at higher magnifications.

I'm going to Madison, WI for XMAS and there's a chance Squibber and I can meet up and run the LWTS-LR and UTCx side by side in the same conditions with both of us there ... that would give us a reasonable comparison.

But then UTCx(s) are just like T75(s) right now ... they're both made out of "UNOBTAINIUM" :cool:
Excellent info.
 
To answer your questions....have shot steel to 500 in CO mode and 600 in stand alone mode. Zero perceivable shift on any of my day optics ( thermal targets at 100 yds are nearly same hole ( see video in my thread). Day optics used have been ..... 3-20 s&B ... 4-20 ZCO..... 4-28 M7XI .....1-8x24 M8XI ..... 5-25 TT..... 4x HAMR...vudu 5-25x50
All of those day optics have been in 1.5-1.55 inch MOUNTS. I'd say top end comfort zone for me in clip on mode is 14x but I'm fairly conservative. In my opinion the sweet spot is 8-9x which for me is a lot of mag through a thermal.
Have you used it in front of any 1.375” scopes?

Do you have access to spec sheets for the standalone reticles? That’s show the distance between dots etc?

It’s a shame they are all bdc reticles. A simple mil reticle like mil c or even a mil dot would have been nice to include.