Rifle Scopes Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

[High Binder]

WTF is the deal with spotting scopes lying about the magnification. I recently went out and tried a bunch of diffrent spotting scopes at our range. Most said 60 power, the Burris said 75 power but none of them were even close to my 22 power Nightforce scope.

WTF? Does anyone make a spotting scope that can out magnify a 22 power scope?

 

[2brothers641]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

Lens quality outweighs magnification. What brands of spotting scopes did you try?

 

[ORD]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

Are you sure you aren't mistaking a perceived lack of magnification for a much wider field of view?

For example...a NF 5.5-22x50 (or x56) has an approx. field of view of 4.5ft at 100yds on 22x magnification. My Pentax 80mm spotter has an approx. field of view of 10ft at 100yds at the same magnification (more than 2x the FOV than the NF).

See what I am saying? You may perceive that an object is not being magnified the same with the spotter just because you have a significantly wider FOV through the spotter than you do with the NF.

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

Are you saying they did not bring the target in as close as your NF or the field of view? Huh?

 

[matchking]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF? Does anyone make a spotting scope that can out magnify a 22 power scope? </div></div>

Most manufacturers do. Not sure how scientific your experiment was, but I have a feeling if one took a handful of 60+x power spotters to the range they would all out magnify a 22x NF.

On a side note, if glass quality was better with the NF, I'd suggest a new spotter.

 

[skatz11]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

I think seems that way because the FOV is so small at the high magnification.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

Are you mistaking the objective lens size for magnification?

 

[zenbiker]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF is the deal with spotting scopes lying about the magnification. I recently went out and tried a bunch of diffrent spotting scopes at our range. Most said 60 power, the Burris said 75 power but none of them were even close to my 22 power Nightforce scope.

WTF? Does anyone make a spotting scope that can out magnify a 22 power scope? </div></div>

Magnification equals focal length divided by objective lens diameter. 1000mm focal length, 50 mm objective, voila, 20 power.

Now the bitch. Start getting above 25 power and no matter how good your lenses are, atmospherics are going to degrade your resolution. Nightfoce, Swaro, and other top scopes have top end coated optics, but still, using 50 power at long range is going to leave you seasick with mirage.

Want the best? Optolyth 100, Fluorite coated optics, a 25 to 27 power wide angle eyepiece. A good way to blow $2500. Failing that, Kowa, Swaro, Leica, same power eyepiece. Burris, Bushnell are mediocre in comparison. A 50 to 60 power on a range is useless unless the scope is anchored in concrete to keep your eyelashes from knocking it off target, and finding your target with the narrow field of view is like tring to find Betelguese with a 2" refractor.

One last tip: good optics make you feel like you're falling into the sightpicture. Look through a pair of bino spotters using Kowa 100s and 27X LER/WA eyepiece is the closest thing to 3D I've ever seen, just too rich for my blood.

Your NF is better than just about any entry to mid level spotting optic out there and 22X is just about the ideal mag. How lucky, eh?

 

[dcjs]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Magnification equals focal length divided by objective lens diameter. 1000mm focal length, 50 mm objective, voila, 20 power.</div></div>
Absolutely positively not. Seeing that you seem to be dealing with telescopes, you are probably confusing "objective lens diameter" with "ocular focal length" here, because then your example makes sense.

Objective focal length divided by ocular focal length equals magnification, not accounting for a possible additional factor in an erector system.

Objective lens diameter has nothing to do with magnification.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

As noted above when you start getting too high of power the atmospherics degrade the sight picture. On the contrary, Nightforce has excellent clarity. A lot of times you can see something at 20-22x that you can't see at 45x with a spotting scope. The reason is even though the view has been magnified, the sight picture has degraded.

Now, if you compared the excellent optics of the nightforce to the same power on the spotting scopes you'd see the difference.

With some of my better scopes I can see bullet holes at 300 yds. on 10x. I can't always see them with my Burris spotting scope anywhere from 15x-45x. It's hard to get focused just perfect enough to do that. The reason is clarity. With super fine glass you can see a lot at a lower power that you can't when you turn the power up. All that does is increase the size of the things you can't see, making your sight picture a jigsaw puzzle.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

Are Nightforce planning to make spotting scopes ?

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2brothers641</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lens quality outweighs magnification. What brands of spotting scopes did you try? </div></div>


We had a:

75 power Buris
45 power Leupold
68 power Zhumell
60 power Tasco
36 power Bushnel

One of the guys works for one of the listed companys so we were able to check them all out but they all sucked compared to my Nightforce 5.5-22 50.

And I don't mean field of view, I mean the actual taget itself was larger in my scope at 22 power than the rest of the spotting scopes at their maximum power. I realize that my glass is way better than the scopes we tried but the fact the the target was larger in my scope than in the spotting scopes tells me that mine magnified the target more. The field of view of the spotting scopes was better but without having an accurate magnification ring on the spotting scopes there's no way to compare the field of view between my Nightforce the any of the spotting scopes.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

The magnification is accurate to within .2 to .4 x at the top an bottom end of the scale. I'm sure you are confusing field with apparent size. The FOV on the nightforce 5.5-22 x 50 is 4.7 feet at 100 yards. At the same range, at 45x the Leupold Sequoia spotter has a field of 6.3 feet. Therefore, a 3 foot target would appear to fill 3/4 the scope on the NF, but less than half the spotter.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The magnification is accurate to within .2 to .4 x at the top an bottom end of the scale. I'm sure you are confusing field with apparent size. The FOV on the nightforce 5.5-22 x 50 is 4.7 feet at 100 yards. At the same range, at 45x the Leupold Sequoia spotter has a field of 6.3 feet. Therefore, a 3 foot target would appear to fill 3/4 the scope on the NF, but less than half the spotter. </div></div>

But the target itself was bigger in the 22 power than the rest of them. Everyone there agreed that the magnification was wrong.

 

[excess]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

I have a Pentax PF-80ED scope with a 20-60x eyepiece. It's supposed to be a great scope, but i have troulbe seeing bullet holes at 200 yards and beyond, especially when shooting service rifle targets with black centers.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

Bigger in relation to what? It fills more of the viewing area? That's not what magnification means. The best way to show this is with a spotter that has a reticle, such as the Leupold Tactical. If your NF scope has a mil reticle as well, place a 36" target at 100 yards. Set the scope to 22x, the target will be 10 mil. Set the spotter up and set it to 22x, the target will be 10 mil. The targets are both magnified 22 times larger than they appear to the naked eye. The reticle and target in the spotter will take up less of the field, but the emagnification is exactly the same.

What you really want when testing optics is a resulution test chart, like this

http://jimdoty.com/Tips/Equipment/USAF_Test/USAF_Chart/USAF1951w.jpg

Set the scopes to the same power, then find the smallest block that you can still see seperate lines.


CNC, are you using the old XF zoom or the new SMC lens? The older, (much less expensive" XF zoom is not bringing out the best in your scope. The 20mm XW is fantastic, 27x in the 80mm and resolves as well as the Zeiss Spotter 60. The SMC zoom is great if you need a zoom eyepiece, far superior to the XF.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What you really want when testing optics is a resulution test chart, like this

http://jimdoty.com/Tips/Equipment/USAF_Test/USAF_Chart/USAF1951w.jpg

Set the scopes to the same power, then find the smallest block that you can still see seperate lines.

. </div></div>

OK thanks for the link, we're going out again this weekend. I printed the link and we'll see how it works.

 

[excess]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bigger in relation to what? It fills more of the viewing area? That's not what magnification means. The best way to show this is with a spotter that has a reticle, such as the Leupold Tactical. If your NF scope has a mil reticle as well, place a 36" target at 100 yards. Set the scope to 22x, the target will be 10 mil. Set the spotter up and set it to 22x, the target will be 10 mil. The targets are both magnified 22 times larger than they appear to the naked eye. The reticle and target in the spotter will take up less of the field, but the emagnification is exactly the same.

What you really want when testing optics is a resulution test chart, like this

http://jimdoty.com/Tips/Equipment/USAF_Test/USAF_Chart/USAF1951w.jpg

Set the scopes to the same power, then find the smallest block that you can still see seperate lines.


CNC, are you using the old XF zoom or the new SMC lens? The older, (much less expensive" XF zoom is not bringing out the best in your scope. The 20mm XW is fantastic, 27x in the 80mm and resolves as well as the Zeiss Spotter 60. The SMC zoom is great if you need a zoom eyepiece, far superior to the XF.</div></div>

Cory, I do have the SMC. At longer distances I've only used it with black Service Rifle targets. I imagine it will work better with a white background, else my eyes just suck.

 

[jesseanderson2]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are Nightforce planning to make spotting scopes ? </div></div>

I have not heard anything but if they did I would prolly have to buy one. I have a vortex HD and it rocks. I take it to the mountains and I can see for days. The only problem is I find 10x the stuff with my vortex vipers 10 power. I think its because I feel like im looking through a straw with the scope and I don't cover as much area as fast. FOV

 

[zenbiker]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Magnification equals focal length divided by objective lens diameter. 1000mm focal length, 50 mm objective, voila, 20 power.</div></div>
Absolutely positively not. Seeing that you seem to be dealing with telescopes, you are probably confusing "objective lens diameter" with "ocular focal length" here, because then your example makes sense.

Objective focal length divided by ocular focal length equals magnification, not accounting for a possible additional factor in an erector system.

Objective lens diameter has nothing to do with magnification. </div></div>

Thanks for clarifying my misstatement, yes, you are absolutely right. Objective lens diamter determines exit pupil diameter at a given focal length, and hence, relative brightness.

The rest, I stand by

 

[LFOD1776]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Objective lens diamter determines exit pupil diameter at a given focal length, and hence, relative brightness.
</div></div>

Actually, that's not true either. Objective lens diameter squared is proportional to light-gathering ability, and hence both resolving power and relative brightness, but the exit pupil size is determined by properties of the ocular (eyepiece).

If the exit pupil is larger than the aperture created by your iris, your optical system is wasting light -- 'cause you're not seeing it!

 

[samnev]

Re: Lying magnifcation on spoting scopes WTF?

All things being equal the resolution of the scope in arc seconds is going to determine wether or not you can resolve a bullet hole of a given caliber at a specific range. Resolution varies widely from one manufacturer to another.