M&P 10 Considerations...or maybe a bolt gun

[ASH556]

I'm looking to step up the ballistic performance of my "outside" rifle in both effective range and barrier performance. I'm a civilian and CCW a pistol daily. If I suspect that I might need to shoot something (Katrina, Rodney King riots, etc) my 5.56 SBR will go everywhere with me. You can see it in the pic below setup with a T-1, Surefire, etc...it's a winner. The can is an AAC M4-2000 and can currently work on either the SBR or the carbine.

I'm considering dumping the 5.56 carbine (the one you see wearing the ACOG below) for something in .308. If I need to shoot further or through something, the increase in performance gained by the .308 is un-deniable. For this purpose, I'm considering replacing the 5.56 carbine with a Smith & Wesson M&P10. I've read Mistwolf's thread here along with some other threads here and elsewhere and it seems that the M&P 10 will suit my purposes well and be cost effective. I plan to install the Troy MRF rail on the M&P 10 and then cross over all my accessories from the 5.56 carbine (Geissele SSA-E trigger, ACOG, Light, Handstop, etc).

The goal is to keep it a relatively lightweight, shoulder-fired rifle, that, when supported and with good ammo could produce 1.5-2MOA accuracy out to at least 800 yds. I've had 2 Remington 700 .308 bolt guns in the past that I personally shot sub-moa with out to 700 yds (that's the longest range I've been to). The problem is that they were HEAVY. I'm willing to give up some accuracy for handiness.

The immediate purpose for the .308 rifle is deer hunting in North Georgia where max shots are 300yds. I know the .223 with good bullets (say Barnes) is probably lethal out to that distance, but my concern is intermediate barriers. For instance, I shot a deer Saturday that was behind a very small leafy branch. I've taken that exact shot with my .30/06 before and had no issues. The first shot with the .223 (55gr Barnes TSX) deflected and went high and right into the deer's guts. The deer took a couple more steps and I made a clean follow-up shot through the lungs and liver and dropped it. However, that deflection concerns me a lot. Our longer shots are in hayfields and such a bullet might also deflect off of hay stalks. I just really want to have the option of choosing something that will punch through.

Now, if it was just about deer, I have a 30/06 I can do that with, but like most of us on this site, I also like to have weapons that are capable should more dire circumstances arise. Hence, the .308.

Now to the bottom line: Price.

I figure my DD carbine is probably worth around $1,000 in its good used condition, give or take a little. Through some industry connections, I can pick up the Smith .308 for around the same price. My main concern is whether or not the Smith is up to the task for dependability if called upon in less friendly times. If not, I don't have the $3,000 plus to get into an LMT, KAC, Larue. So, the next option would be a bolt gun. Now, if we're going the bolt gun route, I no longer need the ACOG, Geissle trigger, ETC, so now we're talking about another $1,000 to play with. Seems a man could build a pretty nice bolt gun setup for $2,000, glass included.

Main Criteria:

Lightweight-ish, 10lb or less preferably
Reasonably accurate, 1.5-2 MOA with good ammo
Compact-ish, 20" barrel max
Glass capable of seeing well enough for torso hits out to 800 yds and head shots out to 300.
Speed is a higher priority than precision, so BDC or turrets are preferable. If the M&P is the choice, then the ACOG is my preference.


So, given all of this, M&P, bolt gun (what setup) or something else?


Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

 

[odonnks]

If your looking for a dual purpose (battle and hunting) 308 cal in the $1-$2k range the M&P10 is a good choice.
With Ruger releasing its SR-762 last month I expect it to be in direct competition with Smith's M&P10.

I have a few 308 semi-auto's, one being a M&P10, and would have no issues with it as a go to weapon if need be.

 

[White_Shark]

Here's mine with Midwest Industries 12" SSG2 Rail and POF muzzle brake. I can't comment as to the accuracy or reliability yet though until I shoot it with some good ammo this coming Sunday.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Ash,

Leaving ur reasoning aside for a bit, could you please tell us why u think you can't do everything you want to with your 30-06 rifle?

It will have better ballistics than a .308 anything, it will be lighter than a 308AR, more accurate than a 308AR, arguably more reliable, etc.

If you reload, you can get 95% of 300 WM performance out of it when loaded to 308winchester pressure levels with modern slow burning powders & heavy bullets.

With all due respect, the shot on deer that concerns you is more likely related to marksmanship than anything else.

All this aside, if you want a 308AR, go for it.

 

[RHunter]

I have 2 M&P 10's and 2 30-06 bolt guns. To me each situation has it's own tool.

Follow up shots with a bolt gun are slow compared to a semi. You miss with a bolt gun you most likely will not get a second shot. You will with a M&P 10. If you want to rain a bit of hell down on a target, you can get 20 rounds off in less than a minute, you cant do that with a bolt gun.

Now if your target is 600-800 yards away, time is most likely on your side. Pull out your 30-06 and get the job done. If you dont have a bolt gun, the M&P 10 will do the job, just not as well.

The quality of the M&10 for the money is excellent. The first one I bought had a great trigger for stock, the second the trigger was crap... I replaced both of them and they are bug hole shooters. Furniture was crap but so what, I rather have a cheap price and put what I want on it and not have to worry about selling the crap it came with.

 

[ASH556]

Ash,

Leaving ur reasoning aside for a bit, could you please tell us why u think you can't do everything you want to with your 30-06 rifle?

It will have better ballistics than a .308 anything, it will be lighter than a 308AR, more accurate than a 308AR, arguably more reliable, etc.

If you reload, you can get 95% of 300 WM performance out of it when loaded to 308winchester pressure levels with modern slow burning powders & heavy bullets.

With all due respect, the shot on deer that concerns you is more likely related to marksmanship than anything else.

All this aside, if you want a 308AR, go for it.

To answer your first question: Because my 30/06 is a 1976 Ruger M77 in a walnut stock and is not a very accurate rifle. I've shot it on paper trying to determine groups and get dope. The first 3 shots at 100yds are good, basically a cloverleaf (not one-hole, though). The problem is after those first three shots, the rifle is done. The group opens up to about 6 inches, if you could even call it a group, because the shots start stringing vertically. When the rifle does that, you really cannot even determine dope for other ranges because the rifle doesn't shoot consistently enough. The rifle was a Christmas gift several years ago and has great sentimental value. It works well for fitting in at hunting camp with Grandpa and kills deer out to about 200 yds, but beyond that it doesn't have much utility.

Regarding marksmanship, you might be right, but here's some evidence that would suggest otherwise:

One of my prior Remingtons, 700 SPS TAC, steel bedded into an HS Precision LTR takeoff, Leupold Mark IV 3.5-10x40M3, Nightforce base and rings, shooting 175gr Black Hills:

100yd 5-shot group...the 2 shots you see at the top of the dot were prior to an elevation correction:

600yd 3-shot group...2" dot for reference: