Ok I am not sure if this was ever brought up. Has anyone compared Black Hills .308 168 grain BTHP to M118 LR ammo before? If so what is the pro and cons of each Thanks.
Fieldcraft M118LR vs Black Hills
- Thread starter workingman1976
- Start date
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Since ever gun is a bit differant, even two guns coming off the same assembly line, I dont think one can't say one is better then the other in every case.
I'd sugest getting some of each and see which one is best in your rifle.
JMHO
Since ever gun is a bit differant, even two guns coming off the same assembly line, I dont think one can't say one is better then the other in every case.
I'd sugest getting some of each and see which one is best in your rifle.
JMHO
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For distance work, I would take the LR any day.................... </div></div>
B/c it is more consistant? Or b/c it shoots better in your stick than BH?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For distance work, I would take the LR any day.................... </div></div>
B/c it is more consistant? Or b/c it shoots better in your stick than BH?
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Just an opinion of mine but here it goes.....
A rifle doesn't give a crap what you are shooting as long as it can stabilize the bullet. If it can stabilize it, it will shoot good. Twist rate is what I mean when I am talking about stabilizing a bullet. Of course every bullet, like man, is not created equal therefore bullets with higher B.C's will often work better. 175 SMK has a higher B.C. than the 168 SMK. BUT.....
A bullet needs speed to achieve its prescribed B.C., if it doesn't go fast enough, it won't be as accurate as it could be. Higher B.C. = better time in flight performance. Many companies neuter their ammo so it safe in all parts of the world. If you haven't notice it is a lot hotter in the desert of Iraq than it is in Maine for example. Therefore they will match the muzzle velocity so the ammo can be shot in all parts of the world safely and so you don't get pressure signs.
Another factor to consider is the barrel in terms of its affect on accuracy of a bullet. Many barrelsmiths will use their own preferred method for the rifling of the barrel which in turn will have some effects on stabilization of a bullet. Honestly, that is something the expert barrel guys can explain, I have no clue.
For 308 caliber bullets, the diameter of the round is .308 for all bullets made by manufacturers. Some bullets are longer and some are shorter. I can only assume that longer bullets have more surface that contacts the rifling to help stabilization. Just a thought but if you have handloaded your own match ammo usually the longer bullets have higher B.C.'s also but will usually weigh more. In comparision to same weight bullets, a 175 SMK to a 175 VLD, the VLD has the higher B.C. and is also longer so what am I getting at is that there is more contacts with the rifling to help the stabilization. The 155 Scenar for example is a light bullet, but very long for its weight. I am no expert but if you look at the 7mm family of bullets, the B.C.s kill the 30 caliber family. Why, longer bullets.
Sorry, this was just a rant. I am probably talking out my paygrade but let me know what you think.
Just an opinion of mine but here it goes.....
A rifle doesn't give a crap what you are shooting as long as it can stabilize the bullet. If it can stabilize it, it will shoot good. Twist rate is what I mean when I am talking about stabilizing a bullet. Of course every bullet, like man, is not created equal therefore bullets with higher B.C's will often work better. 175 SMK has a higher B.C. than the 168 SMK. BUT.....
A bullet needs speed to achieve its prescribed B.C., if it doesn't go fast enough, it won't be as accurate as it could be. Higher B.C. = better time in flight performance. Many companies neuter their ammo so it safe in all parts of the world. If you haven't notice it is a lot hotter in the desert of Iraq than it is in Maine for example. Therefore they will match the muzzle velocity so the ammo can be shot in all parts of the world safely and so you don't get pressure signs.
Another factor to consider is the barrel in terms of its affect on accuracy of a bullet. Many barrelsmiths will use their own preferred method for the rifling of the barrel which in turn will have some effects on stabilization of a bullet. Honestly, that is something the expert barrel guys can explain, I have no clue.
For 308 caliber bullets, the diameter of the round is .308 for all bullets made by manufacturers. Some bullets are longer and some are shorter. I can only assume that longer bullets have more surface that contacts the rifling to help stabilization. Just a thought but if you have handloaded your own match ammo usually the longer bullets have higher B.C.'s also but will usually weigh more. In comparision to same weight bullets, a 175 SMK to a 175 VLD, the VLD has the higher B.C. and is also longer so what am I getting at is that there is more contacts with the rifling to help the stabilization. The 155 Scenar for example is a light bullet, but very long for its weight. I am no expert but if you look at the 7mm family of bullets, the B.C.s kill the 30 caliber family. Why, longer bullets.
Sorry, this was just a rant. I am probably talking out my paygrade but let me know what you think.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Doc,
No it's all good...........
I just answered to the Specific querie from Mo.............
And, like you stated, all those factors, are entailed, in the use of the 175, in the the LR, as opposed to the 168 used in commercial mfgrs.
However, a lot of HIGH B.C. bullets shoot very poorly, unless their into the lands.
There's more to the accuracy of bullets, than just more contact w/ rifling.
Design of the bullet, is ALL important.( You can have a longer bullet, not a BTHP design, that will not shoot w/ a shorter bullet.
I had a stick w/ a Hart tube, w/ a .050 jump, and 175 Sierra's shot under(well under) .5 moa, all the way to 500yds.
Even w/ the jump, 1-12 twist.
If I had tried a 175 Berger, at a .050 jump, it would not have been nearly as accurate.
And, I am talking way above my pay grade also.......just know what I have experienced.( on these two bullets).
Doc,
No it's all good...........
I just answered to the Specific querie from Mo.............
And, like you stated, all those factors, are entailed, in the use of the 175, in the the LR, as opposed to the 168 used in commercial mfgrs.
However, a lot of HIGH B.C. bullets shoot very poorly, unless their into the lands.
There's more to the accuracy of bullets, than just more contact w/ rifling.
Design of the bullet, is ALL important.( You can have a longer bullet, not a BTHP design, that will not shoot w/ a shorter bullet.
I had a stick w/ a Hart tube, w/ a .050 jump, and 175 Sierra's shot under(well under) .5 moa, all the way to 500yds.
Even w/ the jump, 1-12 twist.
If I had tried a 175 Berger, at a .050 jump, it would not have been nearly as accurate.
And, I am talking way above my pay grade also.......just know what I have experienced.( on these two bullets).
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
I haven't shot any BH in years..I was a FGMM175 guy before I started handloading.
Here are my obervations of M118LR (LOT SMQ03E271-XXX)fired from my dead stock barreled action (1-12 26")on Range 4 @ MCB Quantico:
90F @ 300'ASL 2725FPS AVG. 35.5 MOA to 1K. Target: 15X25" LV #6 on a stick steel torso. 75F 37.75 MOA to 1K, same target.
I've since had a 5R w/ an M118 chamber added to this rifle but haven't shot it out to 1K.
Yet. Maybe this week end...
I haven't shot any BH in years..I was a FGMM175 guy before I started handloading.
Here are my obervations of M118LR (LOT SMQ03E271-XXX)fired from my dead stock barreled action (1-12 26")on Range 4 @ MCB Quantico:
90F @ 300'ASL 2725FPS AVG. 35.5 MOA to 1K. Target: 15X25" LV #6 on a stick steel torso. 75F 37.75 MOA to 1K, same target.
I've since had a 5R w/ an M118 chamber added to this rifle but haven't shot it out to 1K.
Yet. Maybe this week end...
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
M118LR is 175 gr
Black hills 168 is 168.
I've shot both 118Lr and Black Hills 175, close comparison.
Both are equally good.
M118LR is 175 gr
Black hills 168 is 168.
I've shot both 118Lr and Black Hills 175, close comparison.
Both are equally good.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
For those of you who have purchased M118LR in the last couple of months, where are you buying it? I bought a dozen boxes of XM118LR-PD from Cheaper Than Dirt to test on a new bone stock Rem LTR and was very pleased with the performance. Now I can't find it anywhere. Haven't tried the 'real' stuff yet.
By the way, I like the XM-PD fine (bulk packaged 'rejects'). Shoots under .5 moa out to 250 yards, with 100 yard 5 shot groups in the.31-.40 range center to center (2,625fps out of the 20" bbl, 13 fps s.d.). Haven't had a chance to test the rifle at longer ranges yet. The only round that did better was the 175gr Fed GMM which is pretty well unmatched out of this gun from the ones I have tried. Black Hills 175gr HPBT Match didn't fare as well, nor did the Hornady TAP.
I have seen postings about the M118LR replicas from HSM (The Hunting Shack) and American Ballistics, but haven't bought any yet. Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
For those of you who have purchased M118LR in the last couple of months, where are you buying it? I bought a dozen boxes of XM118LR-PD from Cheaper Than Dirt to test on a new bone stock Rem LTR and was very pleased with the performance. Now I can't find it anywhere. Haven't tried the 'real' stuff yet.
By the way, I like the XM-PD fine (bulk packaged 'rejects'). Shoots under .5 moa out to 250 yards, with 100 yard 5 shot groups in the.31-.40 range center to center (2,625fps out of the 20" bbl, 13 fps s.d.). Haven't had a chance to test the rifle at longer ranges yet. The only round that did better was the 175gr Fed GMM which is pretty well unmatched out of this gun from the ones I have tried. Black Hills 175gr HPBT Match didn't fare as well, nor did the Hornady TAP.
I have seen postings about the M118LR replicas from HSM (The Hunting Shack) and American Ballistics, but haven't bought any yet. Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
The Hunting Shack and AB are both crap. The hunting shack won't even hold 1moa at 100 and the AB was over 1/2moa. I have both here and was not satisfied with either.
The AB used to be really good. The stuff I shot last yr was awesome.
I just returned over 2 cases cause the cases were all beat up and had nicks in the neck. It was all loaded in Remington cases. Looks to be previously shot.
The Hunting Shack and AB are both crap. The hunting shack won't even hold 1moa at 100 and the AB was over 1/2moa. I have both here and was not satisfied with either.
The AB used to be really good. The stuff I shot last yr was awesome.
I just returned over 2 cases cause the cases were all beat up and had nicks in the neck. It was all loaded in Remington cases. Looks to be previously shot.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Run the ballistics on your ballistics program and see: There is almost no difference on come-ups between the 168's and 175's under 500 yards. That's why many LE departments still shoot the 168's - they don't do long range work. But the 175's take over at 500 and stay supersonic at 1000 (assuming no really cold weather at low altitude). Supersonic beyond 800 is why the military went to it. See Mike Lau's book "The Military and Police Sniper" for an excellent discussion of development of the M118 ammo. And stay away from surplussed LR unless you know the lot. Get federal GM or Black Hills 175 SMK ammo instead. The civilian stuff will likely shoot slightly faster. Also, even if you don't care about supersonic performance at 1000, the 175's shoot exceedingly well at LOW velocities, like barely over 2600fps. If you are having a gun built, throat it for magazine length 175 SMK's and it will probably shoot everything else very well.
Run the ballistics on your ballistics program and see: There is almost no difference on come-ups between the 168's and 175's under 500 yards. That's why many LE departments still shoot the 168's - they don't do long range work. But the 175's take over at 500 and stay supersonic at 1000 (assuming no really cold weather at low altitude). Supersonic beyond 800 is why the military went to it. See Mike Lau's book "The Military and Police Sniper" for an excellent discussion of development of the M118 ammo. And stay away from surplussed LR unless you know the lot. Get federal GM or Black Hills 175 SMK ammo instead. The civilian stuff will likely shoot slightly faster. Also, even if you don't care about supersonic performance at 1000, the 175's shoot exceedingly well at LOW velocities, like barely over 2600fps. If you are having a gun built, throat it for magazine length 175 SMK's and it will probably shoot everything else very well.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Where would one be able to get some of the M118LR's ?
Where would one be able to get some of the M118LR's ?
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
You can get all you want by joining the United States Marine Corps or the United States Army .
Or, some of the guys from the United States Navy and United States Air Force get to play with it.
Otherwise, you're SOL 'till the boys above don't need as much of it.
You can get all you want by joining the United States Marine Corps or the United States Army .
Or, some of the guys from the United States Navy and United States Air Force get to play with it.
Otherwise, you're SOL 'till the boys above don't need as much of it.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
I've shot M852, M118NM, M118SB, M118LR (pre-production Sub Lot A), FGMM and Blackhills, both 168's and 175's. My overall experience, having shot several thousand rounds of each at 600 yards, is that FGMM, in 168 flavor, got me the best results. In fact, I have a very hard time, no matter how hard I massage my hand loads, to get any that will out perform the stuff from Federal. M118LR has been a good performer for me at 1000.
I've shot M852, M118NM, M118SB, M118LR (pre-production Sub Lot A), FGMM and Blackhills, both 168's and 175's. My overall experience, having shot several thousand rounds of each at 600 yards, is that FGMM, in 168 flavor, got me the best results. In fact, I have a very hard time, no matter how hard I massage my hand loads, to get any that will out perform the stuff from Federal. M118LR has been a good performer for me at 1000.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
I won't speak of the M118LR, but DI Boyd had a group on his wall in the office at the AMU. A qual lot of FGMM 168's at 300 meters (10 rounds) measured 0.9 inches. Granted, I'm sure there are lot to lot variations. However, seeing that group made a believer out of me.
Powdermonkey
I won't speak of the M118LR, but DI Boyd had a group on his wall in the office at the AMU. A qual lot of FGMM 168's at 300 meters (10 rounds) measured 0.9 inches. Granted, I'm sure there are lot to lot variations. However, seeing that group made a believer out of me.
Powdermonkey
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
500ASL - 85f - 100% Sun - 3pm - Late September 2007 - Rem LTR 20" Factory Bbl
586yds
M118LR 3.6 Mils elevation
BH 175gr 3.8 Mils Elevation
Similar accuracy
500ASL - 85f - 100% Sun - 3pm - Late September 2007 - Rem LTR 20" Factory Bbl
586yds
M118LR 3.6 Mils elevation
BH 175gr 3.8 Mils Elevation
Similar accuracy
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Just FYI...I went down to Central Virginia Tactical this past weekend and shot a bunch of American Ballistics M118LR I got from US Armorment. I keep hearing bad things here and there but that stuff is on the money all the way out. No problems even on the long shots out to 900 yards in a 10" by 17" steel target. I hit 90% and the misses were me not the ammo. By the way if you ever want to train go see Vern at CVT. I went down just to shoot with him this weekend and he's back training again.
Just FYI...I went down to Central Virginia Tactical this past weekend and shot a bunch of American Ballistics M118LR I got from US Armorment. I keep hearing bad things here and there but that stuff is on the money all the way out. No problems even on the long shots out to 900 yards in a 10" by 17" steel target. I hit 90% and the misses were me not the ammo. By the way if you ever want to train go see Vern at CVT. I went down just to shoot with him this weekend and he's back training again.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
American Ballistics-- got the same recommendation from Vern. I shot two 800-1000 yard F-class like series: one with Black Hills 175 and one with the AB 175. I feel that the AB was worth at least 15 points in vertical spread due to more consistent velocity. 20-round samples of each chrono'd had the AB at 2/3 the SD of the BH. The AB (2630fps) was 20fps slower than M118LR (2650) but 20fps faster than BH (2610). Rifle was AE .308.
AB is a great alternative if you can't handload.
Also, I ordered 2K rounds on SUN and they will be here on WED. Some websites have dogged the company based on customer service, but I've got no complaints.
Cheaper cost, better consistency, and faster delivery...
American Ballistics-- got the same recommendation from Vern. I shot two 800-1000 yard F-class like series: one with Black Hills 175 and one with the AB 175. I feel that the AB was worth at least 15 points in vertical spread due to more consistent velocity. 20-round samples of each chrono'd had the AB at 2/3 the SD of the BH. The AB (2630fps) was 20fps slower than M118LR (2650) but 20fps faster than BH (2610). Rifle was AE .308.
AB is a great alternative if you can't handload.
Also, I ordered 2K rounds on SUN and they will be here on WED. Some websites have dogged the company based on customer service, but I've got no complaints.
Cheaper cost, better consistency, and faster delivery...
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Beggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get all you want by joining the United States Marine Corps or the United States Army .
Or, some of the guys from the United States Navy and United States Air Force get to play with it.
Otherwise, you're SOL 'till the boys above don't need as much of it. </div></div>
Or you could just pick some up off of gunbroker.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Beggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get all you want by joining the United States Marine Corps or the United States Army .
Or, some of the guys from the United States Navy and United States Air Force get to play with it.
Otherwise, you're SOL 'till the boys above don't need as much of it. </div></div>
Or you could just pick some up off of gunbroker.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Most of it will shoot ok out to 500-700 yards. It's the long shots that make the difference. 800 yards plus...
you can also pick up the AB here... M118LR 7.62 Sniper Ammunition
Most of it will shoot ok out to 500-700 yards. It's the long shots that make the difference. 800 yards plus...
you can also pick up the AB here... M118LR 7.62 Sniper Ammunition
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
bad link dude it doesnt work
bad link dude it doesnt work
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Just used it. Worked fine but here's the complete link just in case.
http://usarmorment.com/m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-p-1.html
Just used it. Worked fine but here's the complete link just in case.
http://usarmorment.com/m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-p-1.html
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
here is what it said
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You don't have permission to access /m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-p-1.html on this server.
Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
here is what it said
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-p-1.html on this server.
Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Both links work just fine for me using three different browsers. You fail!!!
Both links work just fine for me using three different browsers. You fail!!!
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Dito on ABT M118LR. Have had no problems with ammo or customer service. My rifle likes them & holds at about 1/4MOA, sometimes better if I didnt down a Rockstar beforehand. However, there is a difference between ABT M118LR & Lake City M118LR that the military uses. It is not the same. ABT uses their own BTHP & LC uses the SMK. Secondly, all M118LR I've seen is 175gr, BH 168gr is 168gr.. no shit right? But 168gr has their place as well, depends on what you're use is. Dito #2 on what everyone said above about every barrel has its own likings. Current price right now for 500 lot ABT is $425 not including shipping, not sure what BH is at. Flip side, if you were to get 500 rounds of LC M118LR, plan on spending about $1000. If accuracy is your big factor, FGMM 175gr SMK's ballistics dam near mirror LC M118LR's.. and about a $10 difference for a box of 20. Thats my 2 pennies.
Dito on ABT M118LR. Have had no problems with ammo or customer service. My rifle likes them & holds at about 1/4MOA, sometimes better if I didnt down a Rockstar beforehand. However, there is a difference between ABT M118LR & Lake City M118LR that the military uses. It is not the same. ABT uses their own BTHP & LC uses the SMK. Secondly, all M118LR I've seen is 175gr, BH 168gr is 168gr.. no shit right? But 168gr has their place as well, depends on what you're use is. Dito #2 on what everyone said above about every barrel has its own likings. Current price right now for 500 lot ABT is $425 not including shipping, not sure what BH is at. Flip side, if you were to get 500 rounds of LC M118LR, plan on spending about $1000. If accuracy is your big factor, FGMM 175gr SMK's ballistics dam near mirror LC M118LR's.. and about a $10 difference for a box of 20. Thats my 2 pennies.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy700</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just used it. Worked fine but here's the complete link just in case.
http://usarmorment.com/m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-p-1.html </div></div>
wow that site list it at 18.95 a box i`m shocked if they do actually sell it and have it in stock
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy700</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just used it. Worked fine but here's the complete link just in case.
http://usarmorment.com/m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-p-1.html </div></div>
wow that site list it at 18.95 a box i`m shocked if they do actually sell it and have it in stock
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
the link says the ammo for sale is American Ballistics, but I never heard of them before. Any info on them?
the link says the ammo for sale is American Ballistics, but I never heard of them before. Any info on them?
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
I made my very first group slightly less than 1/2MOA at 300M with M118LR, in the snow. It took me three years to do, but when I did it with M118LR instead of my reloads(45.0 Varget, M210 Primer, Winchester Case, 175SMK)
I made my very first group slightly less than 1/2MOA at 300M with M118LR, in the snow. It took me three years to do, but when I did it with M118LR instead of my reloads(45.0 Varget, M210 Primer, Winchester Case, 175SMK)
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: workingman1976</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the link says the ammo for sale is American Ballistics, but I never heard of them before. Any info on them? </div></div>I've shot a little of it and accuracy was good from my LTR. I put 10 into 3/4" at 100, and was smacking a 4" popper at 600 with it. I have more ordered.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: workingman1976</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the link says the ammo for sale is American Ballistics, but I never heard of them before. Any info on them? </div></div>I've shot a little of it and accuracy was good from my LTR. I put 10 into 3/4" at 100, and was smacking a 4" popper at 600 with it. I have more ordered.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
so is american ballistics as goodas Lake City M118 LR or better? I mean its way cheaper in price and I never heard of them before so that is why I asked
so is american ballistics as goodas Lake City M118 LR or better? I mean its way cheaper in price and I never heard of them before so that is why I asked
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
I got Hunting Shack .307, 175 gr. Match, and I'm very happy with it.
Just to add info to this. Took 3 months to get it though.
I got Hunting Shack .307, 175 gr. Match, and I'm very happy with it.
Just to add info to this. Took 3 months to get it though.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
maybe a quirk of my rifle(savage 10, 1-10 twist 26" bbl) but i see copletely diferent windage/horizontal poi at 100 yards using black hills...so i dont. every other manufacturer i try stays close to same zero at short range for me. im sure m118lr would be better choice for long distance but for me i usually run fgmm 168's. 2 pennies for what its worth.
maybe a quirk of my rifle(savage 10, 1-10 twist 26" bbl) but i see copletely diferent windage/horizontal poi at 100 yards using black hills...so i dont. every other manufacturer i try stays close to same zero at short range for me. im sure m118lr would be better choice for long distance but for me i usually run fgmm 168's. 2 pennies for what its worth.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
A follow up on Black Hills Ammo.
Chronographed 2 lots today.
NEW LOT of 308 (2010): 175 grain Sierra Hollow Point Boat Tail, Match. 2537,2543, 2532, 2495, 2503 FPS
OLD LOT of same 308(2008): 2488, 2496, 2504, 2478, 2485 FPS
factory says 2600 fps. These were shot at about 50 degrees F in a SS match grade 1 in 10 tube (Pac Nor tube). 23" tube length.
The "old load" 2008 had about 17 MOA to reach 600 yards. This matches M118LR drops.
Also, the chamber was recut to match-spec (it was too small-factory ammo would not chamber) after I got the "dope" on the 2008 lot.
BMT
A follow up on Black Hills Ammo.
Chronographed 2 lots today.
NEW LOT of 308 (2010): 175 grain Sierra Hollow Point Boat Tail, Match. 2537,2543, 2532, 2495, 2503 FPS
OLD LOT of same 308(2008): 2488, 2496, 2504, 2478, 2485 FPS
factory says 2600 fps. These were shot at about 50 degrees F in a SS match grade 1 in 10 tube (Pac Nor tube). 23" tube length.
The "old load" 2008 had about 17 MOA to reach 600 yards. This matches M118LR drops.
Also, the chamber was recut to match-spec (it was too small-factory ammo would not chamber) after I got the "dope" on the 2008 lot.
BMT
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
NOTE: A friend ran this through a his Ballistic software and my drops match actual calculations.
NOTE: A friend ran this through a his Ballistic software and my drops match actual calculations.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
So...
...I guess the moral of the tale is...
If you're gonna buy your ammo, buy a lot...
So...
...I guess the moral of the tale is...
If you're gonna buy your ammo, buy a lot...
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kaoltar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dito on ABT M118LR. Have had no problems with ammo or customer service. My rifle likes them & holds at about 1/4MOA, sometimes better if I didnt down a Rockstar beforehand. However, there is a difference between ABT M118LR & Lake City M118LR that the military uses. It is not the same. ABT uses their own BTHP & LC uses the SMK. Secondly, all M118LR I've seen is 175gr, BH 168gr is 168gr.. no shit right? But 168gr has their place as well, depends on what you're use is. Dito #2 on what everyone said above about every barrel has its own likings. Current price right now for 500 lot ABT is $425 not including shipping, not sure what BH is at. <span style="color: #FF0000">Flip side, if you were to get 500 rounds of LC M118LR, plan on spending about $1000.</span> If accuracy is your big factor, FGMM 175gr SMK's ballistics dam near mirror LC M118LR's.. and about a $10 difference for a box of 20. Thats my 2 pennies. </div></div>
Seriously? I've got 2 cans of it sitting in my garage. Dated 01
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kaoltar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dito on ABT M118LR. Have had no problems with ammo or customer service. My rifle likes them & holds at about 1/4MOA, sometimes better if I didnt down a Rockstar beforehand. However, there is a difference between ABT M118LR & Lake City M118LR that the military uses. It is not the same. ABT uses their own BTHP & LC uses the SMK. Secondly, all M118LR I've seen is 175gr, BH 168gr is 168gr.. no shit right? But 168gr has their place as well, depends on what you're use is. Dito #2 on what everyone said above about every barrel has its own likings. Current price right now for 500 lot ABT is $425 not including shipping, not sure what BH is at. <span style="color: #FF0000">Flip side, if you were to get 500 rounds of LC M118LR, plan on spending about $1000.</span> If accuracy is your big factor, FGMM 175gr SMK's ballistics dam near mirror LC M118LR's.. and about a $10 difference for a box of 20. Thats my 2 pennies. </div></div>
Seriously? I've got 2 cans of it sitting in my garage. Dated 01
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
keep an eye on CMP site, I got 4 cases of 118LR a couple years ago from them, still have one unopened case left and still shootin the brass from the other 3,000
keep an eye on CMP site, I got 4 cases of 118LR a couple years ago from them, still have one unopened case left and still shootin the brass from the other 3,000
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
nice one
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Beggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get all you want by joining the United States Marine Corps or the United States Army .
Or, some of the guys from the United States Navy and United States Air Force get to play with it.
Otherwise, you're SOL 'till the boys above don't need as much of it.</div></div>
nice one
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Beggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get all you want by joining the United States Marine Corps or the United States Army .
Or, some of the guys from the United States Navy and United States Air Force get to play with it.
Otherwise, you're SOL 'till the boys above don't need as much of it.</div></div>
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you're gonna buy your ammo, buy a lot... </div></div>
I should learn never to post here when I am tired.
Just a follow up on BHA ammo. My "actual" dope was developed with the 2008 Lot of BHA, I chrono'ed the 2011 and ran the calculations and it came out very similar.
Nevertheless, even good factory stuff changes over time.
BMT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you're gonna buy your ammo, buy a lot... </div></div>
I should learn never to post here when I am tired.
Just a follow up on BHA ammo. My "actual" dope was developed with the 2008 Lot of BHA, I chrono'ed the 2011 and ran the calculations and it came out very similar.
Nevertheless, even good factory stuff changes over time.
BMT
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
Hey guys, first posting so I thought I'd poke at something I can actually speak to. But my advice is take it or leave it cause of my noob status. As far as the difference goes between BH and 118LR I think some of the other guys have pretty well covered it. The concern really comes more from the fact that a couple of batches of BH 175 over the last few years have suffered quality control more than anything. With BH pushing out 77 grain 5.56 for the secret squirrel guys, they have been trying to produce a steady flow of commercial stuff while remaining a pretty small company. Don't get me wrong, BH is awesome stuff, but you may just want to look at the lot numbers or year from whatever ammo you get in 175 grain and just see what differences, or inconsistencies pop up.
Hey guys, first posting so I thought I'd poke at something I can actually speak to. But my advice is take it or leave it cause of my noob status. As far as the difference goes between BH and 118LR I think some of the other guys have pretty well covered it. The concern really comes more from the fact that a couple of batches of BH 175 over the last few years have suffered quality control more than anything. With BH pushing out 77 grain 5.56 for the secret squirrel guys, they have been trying to produce a steady flow of commercial stuff while remaining a pretty small company. Don't get me wrong, BH is awesome stuff, but you may just want to look at the lot numbers or year from whatever ammo you get in 175 grain and just see what differences, or inconsistencies pop up.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
update to me earlier noob post...
m118lr is good, my 175smk reloads are better, black hills is not even up to snuff. these are my more recent findings.
update to me earlier noob post...
m118lr is good, my 175smk reloads are better, black hills is not even up to snuff. these are my more recent findings.
Re: M118LR vs Black Hills
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I made my very first group slightly less than 1/2MOA at 300M with M118LR, in the snow. It took me three years to do, but when I did it with M118LR instead of my reloads(45.0 Varget, M210 Primer, Winchester Case, 175SMK) </div></div>
That reload recipe has the same velocity and bullet that M118LR does, 2710fps at about 60 deg F.
Chrono'd them both. That's my recipe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I made my very first group slightly less than 1/2MOA at 300M with M118LR, in the snow. It took me three years to do, but when I did it with M118LR instead of my reloads(45.0 Varget, M210 Primer, Winchester Case, 175SMK) </div></div>
That reload recipe has the same velocity and bullet that M118LR does, 2710fps at about 60 deg F.
Chrono'd them both. That's my recipe
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