M14 Grouping issue

[crazy bay]

Hey Gents,

The M14 I am about to discuss, I no longer have in my possession, a friend of mine does, as I have traded it to him for other stuff.

Anyways, It is a Springfield National Match M1A, Sage EBR stock, Superior Shooting Systems, buffer/hammer spring kit. Multiple parts have been replaced by USGI parts. Basically, the only original parts of the rifle are the barrel and receiver. After I had finished this project, I never actually took it to the range for anything more than a rapid test fire (mainly to test prior extraction issues)

The rifle, works flawless except for one thing. He took it to the range the other day and reported that he, nor anyone there could get it to group at all. The had mounted an Leupold MK 4 LR/T on a Smith Enterprise base. They were using M118 SP Ball.

I did notice that when I had a gunsmith (a old local guy) put on the new op rod guide there were some slight dings in the barrel. He had used a hammer to fit on the new guide over the barrel. But these 'dings' were ever so slight, and not even noticeable over a light coat of paint.

He had a smith mount the scope, so Im sure that it wasn't damaged from over torque. He called me about it, I couldn't give him any real feedback.

I feel like an ass, and would like to resolve this. Does anyone have any ideals what it could be if not the barrel?

 

[Michael]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

More info required.
By not grouping, do you mean it won't shoot 2 inches at 100 yards, or it won't shoot inside 2 feet at 100 yards?

 

[crazy bay]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

oh, yeah. duh. Sorry. They couldn't get anything better that 4-5 inches at 25 yards.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Have the guy shoot the thing with irons only and see what happens.

 

[JWGILLAM]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot the thing with irons only and see what happens. </div></div>

took the words right out of my mouth as I was about to post it. I know a man who builds some sweet ass custom M1a's they shoot easy sub-moa at 100yds with good ammo and Him-steering. one day at the range my gun wasn't shooting worth a damn, he looked at showed my inexperenced self a loose base, problem solved. Something has got to be F**ked for a M1a(or almost any rifle) to shoot that bad

 

[crazy bay]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

I told him to do that. Im not sure if he has. I never shot it with irons though because with that EBR stock you have a hard time getting a sight picture at all. I forgot to mention that the original front sight post is gone. It has a vortex on it, along with an H&K style front sight base. If you guys know what Im talking about. But I will talk to him, get a result, and let you all know. Thanks for the advice.

 

[turbosa22c]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

i think the problem is the sage stock. you should remove it and sell it to me. j/k . sounds like something is loose

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Where is the guy/rifle? What state?

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Why was the op rod guide replaced and how did the gun shoot when you owned it?

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why was the op rod guide replaced and how did the gun shoot when you owned it? </div></div>

The SAGE EBR uses a proprietary op rod guide block.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Interesting, I have not seen a rifle up close with this setup. The furthest thing from a traditional style M14 stock that I have owned is the JAE Gen II. Very nice setup but became very heavy and the accuracy was not where I would have wanted it, but that could have been due to other things. Ended up selling everything and started from scratch with an LRB M25 and LAW483 stock. Its in process of being bedded now and I'm waiting for my USO as well. I will post some pics when it's all done.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

LAW483 makes awesome M14 stocks!

 

[crazy bay]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is the guy/rifle? What state?</div></div>

In central Utah, near Salt Lake City.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crazy bay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is the guy/rifle? What state?</div></div>

In central Utah, near Salt Lake City. </div></div>

Too far from me, but maybe someone that can help lives close.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Ted Brown is one of the most knowledgeable guys around on the M14. He is located in Oregon. Maybe you could give him a call or have your buddy send the rifle to him. He has done work for me several times and is great to work with. Contact # is 541-899-8109.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Ron Smith has built more than a few extremely accurate, ultra reliable EBRs for the military and a few lucky civilians. Smith Enterprise, Inc. is just down the road in Tempe, AZ. Give him a call @ (480) 964-1818

 

[rwest309]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Dave Ferrante / Heart Mountain Precision Machine
870 Road 19.
Powell, WY 82435
307-754-1555
eMail: [email protected]

I dont want to get in an M1A smithy pissing match with anyone but this guy is THE guy. Ask Ron Smith, he knows this very well.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

Ron Smith, Clint McKee, Ted Brown, Tim Strait, Geoffrey Corn, David Ferrante, Ronnie Morris, Clint Fowler and Jon Tank can all build you a match grade M14/M1A you can be happy with, but not all of them are familiar with the SAGE EBR stock.

 

[crazy bay]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

thanks for the contacts guys. I appreciate the help.

 

[rwest309]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

On the issue of stocks I am certain Ferrante would have a come-a-part if he saw his old camp perry m1a in a JAE Gen 1 with a scope on it.

I hope it never needs to be repaired, I will have to send the bbl action in rather than the whole rifle.

Purists...

 

[cgmaster1]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

There are a lot of things that can make a m14 shoot like crap.In your case 1st I would double check the scope and mounts. Grab them and try to move it by hand using a good bit of force. Check the mating surfaces where the mount touches and make sure they are getting good contact. Most mounts I have seen use tension at the foreward end to steady the mount. Like everyone else said try the iron sights. You said they replaced the op rod guide. Make sure it is straight and not binding. If the dings are tiny on the barrel I would not suspect the dings as the problem. I am not familiar with the Sage stock you mention but on normal stock when you bed the rifle without adding a rear lug most of the time you need tension on the front band barely pulling the barrel down. also make surethe operating system is not touching anything other than what it is supposed to touch.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: M14 Grouping issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cgmaster1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not familiar with the Sage stock you mention but on normal stock when you bed the rifle without adding a rear lug most of the time you need tension on the front band barely pulling the barrel down. also make surethe operating system is not touching anything other than what it is supposed to touch.

</div></div>

The SAGE EBR stock uses permanent tension bedding that eliminates the need for a rear lug.
The barrel and op rod feed through a special op rod guide block that is secured in the stock with 3 large bolts.
One bolt on each side and one bolt from the bottom.

The old style guide block came with shims, the new block uses a crush washer.
The red dot must face the muzzle. I understand it is possible to install the guide block backwards if you can't read directions and don't know what you are doing. This will cause binding. No roll pin is needed with the SAGE op rod guide block.

The SAGE EBR chassis has a barrel locking tension screw on top of the very front of the stock.