M16A4 Can someone 'splainame what the issue really is?

[sandwarrior]

So, I'm on my phone and every day I get new news briefs.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/military-culture/marines-complaints-m16a4

Of the five complaints, I can see one as valid. They are too long to get in and out of vehicles all the time, and work in CQB. But the rest? What am I missing about these. I've never been issued an M16 beyond the A1 or Car-15 (shows how old I am) but from my understanding it's pretty much the same system as all the rest of the M16 family, with various upgrades.

Any takers on what exactly is wrong?

 

[Boydo]

Yeah i agree with you. Only one complaint (length) seems valid. The rest are lack of proper maintenance

 

[_Windrider_]

We’re t they switching to the M4?

 

[sandwarrior]

Sorry, after noting the dates, this "issue" stems from the M4 changeover in 2015. I don't know why I got a news brief today when the issue is years old.

Short of my lack of understanding the problem(s) with the rifle, is this just another civilian who doesn't know shit trying to make something out of nothing?

Added: Note the second pic down, that's not even an M16 barrel of any kind.

 

[hlee]

Added: Note the second pic down, that's not even an M16 barrel of any kind.

Thats a ruger 10/22 barrel. Store them in a humid environment for 20 years and that's how they will turn out...

 

[pmclaine]

What content sites do when they have nothing else to write on......they invent stories.

 

[_Windrider_]

What content sites do when they have nothing else to write on......they invent stories.

Oh I didn’t realize that was a CNN story

 

[sandwarrior]

I guess I didn't ask the elephant in the room what he thought, Anybody getting any feedback from former Marines who think the M16A4 has all these problems...except for length?

 

[Strykervet]

Length is the only issue but it can be mitigated with a SOPMOD stock. Seriously. I have a few done that way. If exiting a vehicle is their only gripe with the fixed stock, put a hinge on it. Exit, pop the stock open and carry on. But having exited enough Strykers with everything from a pistol to a 240B, I can attest to it not being that difficult once you get it down. So that alone isn't enough to warrant a new rifle.

An AR with an 18"bbl and SOPMOD stock would probably be most ideal though.

All the other complaints are made up. Every infantryman knows how to clean the goddamn rifle and what to do when (you don't do detailed cleaning in the field, you don't do just a wipedown in the rear!). The rail covers? I love 'em. I have a box of 300 KAC covers and I'll sell 'em custom cut to any length, just PM me. Those covers come in three different styles, smooth, light grip and a bit more grip. Most military shooters wear gloves too, so I don't get it. They do rust and jam though if you don't take care of it, don't clean it.

What it sounds like to me is their excuses to get that $4000 HK rifle they want to issue to everyone. While I feel USMC gets the shitty end of the stick on gear compared to army infantry units, I don't feel the marines deserve a $4000 rifle while army makes do with a $600 rifle.

And the rifle I'm working on currently, the one I expected to have to give to the ex, IS a semi M16A4. I had most of the parts, so why not? Same grip pod, ACOG and rear flip. Mine does have a 1/8 Wylde 5R HBAR though. In basic twenty years ago they issued these rifles if your M16A2 was too worn out; later they replaced all the M16A2's with A4's.

 

[RyanScott]

The M16A4 is a fine rifle and the best long format assault rifle in the world. I do think it’s too long, especially in the stock. If I were the Program Manager on an M16A5 it would have a shorter stock and a 16” barrel with a 13” rail.

 

[pmclaine]

I guess I didn't ask the elephant in the room what he thought, Anybody getting any feedback from former Marines who think the M16A4 has all these problems...except for length?

Well length has never been an issue for me.....wait we still talking rifles?

I was issued A2 not A4.

When issued an A2 we occasionally saw CARs carried by someone high speed and thought they were cool just because they were different but really other than the cool factor we never considered there to be an issue to our A2s because there was no alternative.

I think most of the push to "something else" is just because everyone wants something "different".

Doesnt matter if there is no issue with what you have but its not "different" so people want something else.

I recognize that in vehicles there are advantages to shorter lengths but in a fire fight there are advantages to greater length.

Nothing will be perfect and nothing will ever satisfy, and articles like this will continue.

As a historical note in WWII and Korea we actually had an option of shorter length vs longer length.

Back than there was a major distinction between capabilities though.

The carbine seemed to gain favor from people for their light effective handling.

But if you read accounts from men like Hector Cafferata that had to put out life or death killing fire the M1 Garand was the weapon of choice.

Rather than bitch about "eww it rusts" why not talk about adding something to the mix that provides increased lethality?

 

[RyanScott]

200fps isn’t worth the 10” penalty.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Man, back when I was in the Old Corps, it was about exiting a Huey, an LVTP5, or a Deuce with an M-14...; and briefly, a Deuce with a Garand.

It just comes across as the more sophisticated we get, the more folks bitch about it.

Improvise, adapt, overcome; people...

Sheesh...

Greg

 

[Bandit31]

I had an A4 at MCRD, a little bit during SOI, and a little of my first deployment workup in a CAAT platoon and the only gripe I could really have is the length and are so with the fixed stock. Yes, it was a slight nuisance getting out of vehicles with it but I, as well as others felt it was just the maneuverability of the A4 compared to the M4 and how much the A4 got in the way when doing dismounted gun drills and all the nonsense we had to do on our workup and in Afghanistan.

By the time we got in country, most of those that had A4's went to M4's and only a few kept the A4's as a personal choice or they didn't have a "need" for anything else (drivers, sweepers, etc) I had a Mk12 mod 1 and spent less time off the gun and more time walking and the shorter barrel and shorter lop on the A1 stock were a bit nicer and just left the can off when in the trucks or in the poop palaces. Yes, an adjustable buttstock would have made it a sweet package but I was fairly content with how the Mk12 handled without the can on, plus its much cooler than the rest.

The rest of the stuff in that article is trash. I never heard anyone bitch about rust and or being a pain in the ass to clean except when we were getting screwed with trying to turn everything in after each time we were in the field and about to go on libo.

The most failures i saw were because of shitty mags ,the failure to get parts replaced by an armorers, or the dumb shit we had to do during the work ups.

I never heard of anyone hating the rail covers. I also don't understand the hype on wanting to give everyone an IAR.

 

[pmclaine]

200fps isn’t worth the 10” penalty.

Probably doesnt matter so much now a days with optics but there were sight radius advantages and a riflemans stock.

That same stock though may be a detriment with plates or varying bodies.

Its all trade offs.

 

[mudpig]

Sounds like user error to me. As for length, after getting in/out of Bradleys, uparmored HUMMV's, Dueces with an A2, it's all technique! When you are out in the wet, these weapons take extra oil (that's what the parkerized finish was made for. If you are NOT shooting blanks, the chambers stay relatively clean with Modern issued ammo. Jams.....look at the magazines!!!! or the clean the Chamber!! Slippery handgaurds.....MAN UP! grip the weapon or get some different gloves.
Otherwise change over to the M4 platform. The Marines I dealt with in the Middle East all had M4's and they weren't a bunch of complainers!

 

[sandwarrior]

What kind of frustrates me about this is the author claims to be a former Marine Infantryman, and this is what he put up with. I'm thinkin' NO WAY! as he doesn't seem to understand the -A4 and the -M4 have the same action and gas operating system. With of course the variance in length. But, that length difference has worked in all model differences since the beginning. Is that correct or do I need to adjust my thinking?

 

[Thunderhorse]

You're way behind; the M16 to M4 transition was years ago, we are in the midst of the PMAG transition now and the M4 to M27 rollout will be here before too long. Personally I wish they'd at least reposition the godawful AR charging handle while they're rolling out a new weapon-left or right side would be much better for either left or right handed shooters.

 

[pmclaine]

What kind of frustrates me about this is the author claims to be a former Marine Infantryman, and this is what he put up with. I'm thinkin' NO WAY! as he doesn't seem to understand the -A4 and the -M4 have the same action and gas operating system. With of course the variance in length. But, that length difference has worked in all model differences since the beginning. Is that correct or do I need to adjust my thinking?

Look up Congressman Seth Moulton and you will see that having been a Marine does not automatically make each person smart or an SME in all subjects.

Hate to say it but a few dumb ones make the cut.

 

[sandwarrior]

You're way behind; the M16 to M4 transition was years ago, we are in the midst of the PMAG transition now and the M4 to M27 rollout will be here before too long. Personally I wish they'd at least reposition the godawful AR charging handle while they're rolling out a new weapon-left or right side would be much better for either left or right handed shooters.

See post #4.
Agreed, the charging handle is awkward. However, it's out of the way when moving and shooting.

 

[winniedonkey]

Yea fuck that stock. Throw on gear and it's even worse. Out of vics is a pain but so is carrying a 240. Wish they had more shorty 240s.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

So now that the M27 has been in use for a good while - I read several reports where they use them just as much in the DMR role as the supporting/suppressing fire role..??
Any idea on reports of testing M27's with Mk262(or similar) match ammo? And what kinda accuracy they can/could/do see out of the M27?

 

[Strykervet]

Yea fuck that stock. Throw on gear and it's even worse. Out of vics is a pain but so is carrying a 240. Wish they had more shorty 240s.

There's already an answer for the short 240, the Mk48, which is a 7.62 SAW, more or less.

 

[elwarpo]

I carried a C7, and preferred the shorter C8. Even in the shortest configuration, the fixed stock was too long for a lot of soldiers when wearing armor. Now a carbine stock on a full size upper, now there is the best of both worlds, and after 20 years the Canadian Army finally realized it.

 

[RyanScott]

There's already an answer for the short 240, the Mk48, which is a 7.62 SAW, more or less.

Hit or miss.

The Barrett 240 or the M60E6 would be better answers to that question.

 

[Thunderhorse]

IMHO the M-16 stock is too long even when not wearing armor. LOP is definitely an area where the AK beats the M-16-and I'm not talking about those stupid NATO and Intermediate length stocks they sometimes come with

 

[sandwarrior]

IMHO the M-16 stock is too long even when not wearing armor. LOP is definitely an area where the AK beats the M-16-and I'm not talking about those stupid NATO and Intermediate length stocks they sometimes come with

Long, we get it. The problem with the article is all the other bullshit is the same between the -A4 and M4. For length, the problem is the same with every other M16 variant, except the CAR-15.

 

[XLR308]

If they were going to change I personally would hope that they would adopt a better caliber with more horsepower and stopping power but keep the platform.

The 68spc is a great CQB round but a 6mm version based on the same case has better ballistics and reach and both perform exceptionally well in 16-18" barrels.

All I ever got to qualify with was an A2 and that's what was in the tank but the 240 that was on the top was the main weapon if needed.
Even in the confined space of an M1A1 the 20" barrel didn't seem to be any issue but we were NOMEX suites not bulky body armor and packs.

 

[hermosabeach]

Biggest problem is the Ammo Uncle Sam uses.....

We never signed onto The Hague convention so we should be using the same Ammo Law Enforcement uses.

Shoot ball .223/ 5.56 into a car window, sometimes the lead squirts out of the but as the jacket is squeezed by the glass

Green tip penetrates block walls no better than soft tip.
Green tip zips theough people and does not do sufficient damage

Biggest problem with the platform is ammo

 

[Thunderhorse]

We never signed onto The Hague convention so we should be using the same Ammo Law Enforcement uses.

Yep. If I had a dollar for every time someone said it was the Geneva convention and implied that's why we use FMJ I could retire

 

[sandwarrior]

Biggest problem is the Ammo Uncle Sam uses.....

We never signed onto The Hague convention so we should be using the same Ammo Law Enforcement uses.

Shoot ball .223/ 5.56 into a car window, sometimes the lead squirts out of the but as the jacket is squeezed by the glass

Green tip penetrates block walls no better than soft tip.
Green tip zips theough people and does not do sufficient damage

Biggest problem with the platform is ammo

We never signed the Hague convention because of a couple rules we disagreed with. But, we did subscribe to abide by the rules we thought valid...in 1907. Much has changed since then.

I carried a C7, and preferred the shorter C8. Even in the shortest configuration, the fixed stock was too long for a lot of soldiers when wearing armor. Now a carbine stock on a full size upper, now there is the best of both worlds, and after 20 years the Canadian Army finally realized it.

That's basically what an -A4 is. The M4 has the shorter barrel and standard short grips ...Or, so I understand. The whole point to me is it's a configuration deal. The basic rifle system is the same.

Added: I will say that without boy armor, the M16 stock isn't too long. I'm short coupled and felt it was adequate for most anyone, up until they grew stork arms.