m1a/m14 precision

[cobaltbomb]

i will move to california in autumn, and am planning on getting an C.A. leagal m1a or m14.

i want to put it as a scoped battle rifle together, with a nightforce 3,5-15, and a burris fastfire 2 mounted on the scope for cqb , and i want to set it up as accurate as possible , 1 moa or better.

is it realistic to get this platform in any configuration to shoot self loaded pils somewhere around 1 moa...

what manufacturer, what stock , what setup do you recommend

 

[Narwhal]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

To get consistent one MOA performance I would look at the Springfield National Match or Super Match. Basically, you are going to want a bedded stock, unitized/shimmed gas cylinder, and national match trigger group to get that kind of performance. A gun with all of this will run you around $2000-$2500 new, you will just need to find a model with a muzzle brake or california compensator instead of a flash hider to make it CA legal. You could always go with a custom build based on a LRB reciever, but that is probably going to cost almost twice as much. The modern SAGE EBR/Troy/VLTOR stocks might also be something to look into, but I am yet to see documented evidence of sub MOA performance out of those.

I have a stock M1A scout and it is good for about 4 MOA with standard .308 ball, 2 MOA with match ammo, 1.5 MOA with tuned handloads. If I shoot enough, I'll get a sub-MOA 5 shot group every once in awhile. Even with all the national match tuning and modifications, most M1A's seem to only be capable of 1 MOA or better, which means you'll always get outshot by bolt guns or accuracy-oriented AR's; there is a certain appeal of the M1A though in that it's tough, reliable, hard hitting, and has great iron sights.

Good luck, and I don't think you'll regret going with an m14/m1a.

 

[XOR]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

Even my best match M1A is only 1 MOA. Most seem to be in the 2 MOA area. I love my M1A, but let's be realistic that it is a main battle rifle and was designed with other considerations in mind outside of sub-MOA accuracy. By the time you got it well below 1 MOA you have sunk considerable costs into the gun and probably should have just bought something more made for the task. Again I love the M1As I've had, but it's never going to be bolt-gun accurate and I don't care what anyone claims otherwise about sub-MOA accuracy with one. It has acceptable accuracy combined with good firepower and awesome reliability for a semi-auto.

I think a 15X scope on one is overkill. 10X is plenty for that type of rifle and the type of distances where it would be most effective. Scopes on that gun ride really high so keep that in mind. I couldn't imagine putting another scope on top of the main optic. That seems like it would make it really unwieldy.

You may in fact not even want to use a scope and just use the iron sights. This past week a friend was slamming 12" steel plates at 300 yards with his iron sights and M1A and military surplus ammo. You get CQB and ability to put well aimed fire down range without optics at all.

For stocks, get a surplus USGI fiberglass. You can buy a couple for relatively cheap and put on different paint jobs to match your evening attire. They hold the gun more firmly than the wood stocks IMO and I think make the gun more comfortable to shoot and practical for the field.

 

[Impact]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

you could get a LRB built M25 as well. It has the integrated optic mount so your scope rides low.

 

[nicholst55]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

For a turn-key solution, give Jon Tank a call at Tank's Rifle Shop (402.727.1317) and ask him about his Advanced Rifle.

http://www.tanksrifleshop.com/trs/2010_catalog.pdf

 

[mtechgunman]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

I'm consistently getting 1" groups with my "Loaded" M1A with Black Hill and Federal 168 gr HPBT. I'm going to see what HSM HPBT does in the next few weeks.

 

[buckskin52]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

I am shooting slightly sub MOA with a fulton armory built M1a (originally springfield). I love Fulton armory's stuff, it shoots great and they have extremely reasonable prices.

 

[learjet]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

my m1a adventure goes like this, i decide im gonna make her shoot sub moa, scoped, etc etc. after tons of fitting, fiddling, etc etc i managed to pull it off. used a sadlak mount, and a super sniper 10x. was a flippin hoot for a year or so, till one day it all went to crap. gun wouldnt shoot 4 moa w any of the loads that shot so well only the week before. took the scope off, shot w irons, same problem. went over her to the best of my ability. rebedded...etc etc etc..never got her back under 1 moa again...but i never sent her to a pro for a lookin over. imho the gist is be prepared to spend alot of money for a way freakin cool rifle that one day will go tits up and not shoot straight.

im not bashin the platform, ive still got mine, and will someday blow the dust off her and try again, or simply send her off to one of the m1a smiths for an overhaul. then again, mebbe ill sell it and buy some nice glass. i dunno

YMMV

she WAS my goto pig gun for many years..farmers always looked at it kinda funny

5 shot 100yd group when she was on it, scenars/varget

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

Comon problem with the M1A. I owned a Springfield Supermatch for a number of years, it shot 1-1.5 MOA most days but would rear up and shoot 3 MOA from time to time, same loads and conditions, and shooter, maybe that was the issue.........

They are fun to own and shoot, not a reliable MOA rifle thou

Kirk R

 

[BigBrother]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtechgunman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm consistently getting 1" groups with my "Loaded" M1A with Black Hill and Federal 168 gr HPBT. I'm going to see what HSM HPBT does in the next few weeks.

</div></div>

Yeah, similar experience. I tested my Loaded M1A one day to see what I could do- managed to get it to 1.1 MOA with 175 SMKs, with irons, when I was reeeaaalll careful with all the fundamentals. Would love to scope the thing but I'm keeping it in its iron'd battle rifle config!

 

[jwoolf]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

My supermatch consistantly does a little better than MOA when I load for it.

One thing about it though.... You have to shoot medium burning powders like IMR 4895 to load for it. The slow powders can beat your op rod up. Also, nothing heavier than 175gr pills. The good news is that you can get the 175s up to about 2600 so, you can shoot the 1000yd line with it if you need to.

If you feel that you have to shoot heavier bullets or slower burning powders, you can modify the gas system or put a different gas plug in it to vent off extra gas to allow for slower powders or heavier bullets.

All that said, I LOVE my M1A.

 

[sgtbutt]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

I've got two M1As. Both SA, 1 standard and 1 "loaded" (wife's). Both of them are scoped with Leupolds and I have mine in the Sage EBR chassis. I got the Sadlak Nat Match Op Rod Spring Guide and that helped out alot. I also used left over shims from my EBR on my wifes gas system. Those are the only upgrades that I've done and both shoot a tad over MOA. But I've never used Match ammo either.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobaltbomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i will move to california in autumn, and am planning on getting an C.A. leagal m1a or m14.

i want to put it as a scoped battle rifle together, with a nightforce 3,5-15, and a burris fastfire 2 mounted on the scope for cqb , and i want to set it up as accurate as possible , 1 moa or better.

is it realistic to get this platform in any configuration to shoot self loaded pils somewhere around 1 moa...

what manufacturer, what stock , what setup do you recommend </div></div>

Smith Enterprise, Inc. can build one of their M21A5 Crazy Horse rifles on the receiver of your choosing.

The M21A5 Crazy Horse sits in a slightly modified, but non-bedded USGI synthetic stock and the rifle is capable of sub-MOA accuracy @ 1000 yards.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An M21A5 that was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008, that fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.</div></div>
The M21A5 pictured above is built on an LRB receiver the M21A5 Crazy Horse EBR pictured below is built on an old Poly Tech receiver.

 

[jbell]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

If you want a true sub moa m1a its easy to do w/ a super match in a mcmillan stock, the trick to consistant sub moa accuracy is in the load for it. These platforms are not as forgiving as a bolt gun. The powder is the most critical, cant be too slow or too fast burning (for the load set up and conditions). I use 4064 and it just works. If you want real accuracy have a good smith build you a double lug bolted in a pillar bedded mcmillan with a kreiger and timed gas system, you will be suprised, mine can go 1/2 moa pretty regular.

 

[akjaeger]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

My LRB M-25 will hold under 1 MOA with it's favorite load.

 

[kmussack]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

My SA M1A/M25 clone has all the bells and whistles.

Sometimes it'll shoot sub-moa and sometimes it'll shoot 2-moa sometimes on the same day.

POI will shift as much as 2-moa depending on how the rifle is supported.

She's a heavy beast that can't be trusted but has a high CDI factor.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

Here's mine... not the best pic though.

 

[akjaeger]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

I posted this range report on my LRB M-25 in the past;
I bought an LRB M-25 built to National Match specs about two months ago and have been wringing it out. It's in a McMillan A-3 stock with a Leupold 3.5X10X50mm scope with the illuminated Mil-Dot reticle.
It was about 20F this morning sunny and clear, not a trace of wind. I headed out to the country to my 500 yd range. There was a little snow and the hayfield was frozen hard so I could drive all over it.
After I dug my bench out from under a tree and swept it and my stool off, I set up some targets at 200 yards.
I set up the M-25 and fired a five shot group of it's favorite load (168 SMK @ 2575fps) and then tried out some other loads I'd made up. So far I haven't been able to match the Sierra 168gr Matchking's accuracy with the less expensive Nosler's, but I'm still trying. The Sierra shoots sub-moa the Nosler about 1.25 moa.
Then for the fun stuff. With my zero established at 200, I set targets up at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.
I fired a three shot group at each target and then measured the POA/POI differences. After marking my shots I could see that the POI almost perfectly coincided with the the top of the illuminted part of the reticle at 100 yds, cross hairs at 200 yds, 1st dot on my reticle for 300 yds and the second dot for 400yds. Oh yeah, the 3 shot 400 yd group was 3 1/8"!!
So, I fired another round using these for aiming points. The 300 yd group was centered at 6 O'clock on my 3" aimining dot and the 400 yard group was about 2" low and in 2 5/8" for three shots!
I set up three gallon milk jugs full of water at 400 yds, held the secound dot on the upper left shoulder of the jug and hit them all with 4 shots.
I've got a 15" gong set up at 460 yds and holding the third dot on it I could see the bullets striking POA.
I also shot 5 rounds of the American Eagle M1A load at my 400 yd target, they show 2690fps on my Chrony and hit 8" higher than my load in about an 8" group.
I think I'm getting a good start at figuring out this rifle.
Plan to run it out to 800yds next time. Would like to get good data to 600 in 50 yd increments.
I had a blast!
______________________________________________________________

I've had the rifle out several times in the last month, shooting it to 500 yds. With it's favorite load it's been holding less to than 3/4 moa out to 500.
It is tempermental to loads, but seems solid as to changing shooting positions, temp and humidity.
The M-25 easily takes the place of a 308 bolt gun in my lineup. I've got a Defensive Edge tuned Remington 700 Sendero in .300 SAUM that fills the 30 cal bolt gun niche.
I've also been playing with a Springfield Armory M1A "Scout". It's set up with an EER 2x scope in the forward mounts. The trigger assy had to be sent back to SAI as it was mostly a two stage and sometimes a long gritty single stage. With the trigger assy out of the M-25 this rifle in it's otherwise stock form will hold 1 1/2 MOA with the load the M-25 prefers. I really haven't tried to work up a specific load for the scout.

 

[mtechgunman]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtechgunman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm consistently getting 1" groups with my "Loaded" M1A with Black Hill and Federal 168 gr HPBT. I'm going to see what HSM HPBT does in the next few weeks.

</div></div>

Well here are the results of my HSM 168 HPBT:

These are 3 round groups, shot from prone, at 100 yards. After I was done zeroing, I went straight to 500 yards. I needed 10.75 MOA elevation adjustment and held just on the inside of my first mil dot for wind.

The second pic has a few extra shots. These were taken 1 at a time, then I adjusted my scope. First shot was down and left, second was up and left, third was just a little far right. The three in the center were shot for a group.

 

[brand692]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kmussack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My SA M1A/M25 clone has all the bells and whistles.

Sometimes it'll shoot sub-moa and sometimes it'll shoot 2-moa sometimes on the same day.

POI will shift as much as 2-moa depending on how the rifle is supported.

She's a heavy beast that can't be trusted but has a high CDI factor. </div></div>

What a fantastic no-BS assessment of a great looking M1A. Looks fantastic.

I do have a question, I thought the M25 used a scope mount that did not bolt on the side. Does the one on that rifle have the side bolt? I only ask because it appears so, and need to be corrected if I'm wrong. The LRB receiver I have (not yet built) uses a scope rail that does not have the side bolt and bridges a two dovetails, one in the rear and one in the front.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

I have a Fulton Armory Competition M14 with a medium weight Kreiger barrel. I have shot almost a case of M118LR with it and it has been very consistant from 1 - 1.5 MOA. It does open up a bit when I rapid fire or I don't take my time shooting.
I am trying to figure out which direction I want to take it when funds permit. Either Troy DMR Kit or McMillan M25 or maybe even an old school red issue stock with a Smith mount

 

[3positionshooter]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

First thing is buy a pre ban with a GI barrel, what is often overlooked is all GI barrels are made by a Prat and Whitney machine...what is so important about this??? all these barrels are cut rifled just done today by krieger, obermeyer using the same machines. Next I would say ship the gun to Clint Fowler and have him perform a standard accuracy job- 800 bucks. Everyone of his guns shoot 1/2-7/8 inches. he is one of the most honerable people in the industry. His records stand at many ranges through out the country.
My Clint Fowler M1a shoots 5/8 inch groups using 40 grains of 4064 and a 168 smk. It can smash golf balls at will at 300 yards and go toe to toe with bolt gun owners at my club.

 

[jetmd]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

Clayward is 100% on the mark. Clint is one of the best builders for this platform. The last one he built for me is nothing short of amazing!

The one thing I have found out the hard way, as many others before me have also learned is shooting the M1A/M14 out to 1000yds is not practical. To push the projectile fast enough to remain stabilized at that distance will play hell with the gas system/op rod. Please do not misunderstand this statement. Given the correct weather conditions you will be OK but these rifles will have difficulty trying to accomplish this from sea level to 5,000' above SL, from 10% humidity to 90%, from -10F to 100F.

When I lived in MN and shot at Harris, MN 1000yd range I tried several different bullets with margin result. Although this was years ago and I have not tried this with any of the "new" tech bullets.

But what a fun weapon to shoot! I have 3 M14 semi-auto style rifles and love them all.

 

[cruizer]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

all usgi
Thought about selling it but shot it and fell in love.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: m1a/m14 precision

Sub MOA MK14 SEI

SAGE makes a Kali legal EBR stock...