I recently received my M24 from Texas Brigade Armory and have a couple of questions. The barrel is supposed to be a Mike Rock 5R Stainless Steel. When I look into the receiver, where the barrel was machined for the .308 case, it is nice and shiny just like stainless steel. At the muzzle end, there is just a trace of shiny metal showing just around the edge of the end of the rifling and before the Duracote begins. But, when I look into the barrel from the muzzle end with a penlight it does not appear shiny at all, it is rather dull gray to slightly charcoal color. Is this how it is supposed to look or should the whole bore be shiny? I know this is a stupid question but I don't know what I should be seeing. Maybe heat changes the appearance? It looked like this when I received it from TBA and I am sure it had a couple of rounds through it there, there was also copper showing. I cleaned it for a couple of hours to get rid of the copper but the bore still gray. Thursday I went to the range and fired 30 rounds. I cleaned between every round for first 10, every second round for next ten and every third round for final 10. When I got home to clean it there was a lot of copper fouling. The Hoppes copper solvent I had would not touch it. The local gunsmith gave me some JB Bore Paste to get it out. I cleaned again for a couple of hours before I got it all out. Same thing on Friday. I went to the range and fired 50 more rounds and continued with my cleaning process at the range. When I got home, same thing, a lot of copper fouling. I again cleaned almost two hours to get it out with JB Bore Paste, Hoppes regular solvent and a lot of brushing and patches. After all of this, the bore is still not shiny inside, still gray looking. I can run a brass brush with solvent 3 or 4 times and follow with a wet solvent patch and it comes out with black. Following with a dry patch is comes out almost clean. If I repeat the brass brush and solvent patch it comes out black again, dry patch comes out clean. I never get a clean wet patch after brushing. I have to believe the bore is squeeky clean after so many passes. Is all of this normal or am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated?
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
I suggest you change the frequency and method of cleaning before you end up w/ "smoothbore" !
I suggest you change the frequency and method of cleaning before you end up w/ "smoothbore" !
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Wow.....
Slow up on the cleaning. Cut-rifled, hand-lapped, bores like your rifle's are often not "shiny" and appear somewhat dull grey. If you just insist on cleaning it, I would ditch the JB bore paste and get some Pro-shot or Shooter's Choice copper solvent. Also, lay off the brush. You're probably getting a false sign on your patches due to the brush deteriorating in the solvent.
Lowlight had a thread on cleaning around here somewhere. I'm sure someone will come up with a link for you.
Wow.....
Slow up on the cleaning. Cut-rifled, hand-lapped, bores like your rifle's are often not "shiny" and appear somewhat dull grey. If you just insist on cleaning it, I would ditch the JB bore paste and get some Pro-shot or Shooter's Choice copper solvent. Also, lay off the brush. You're probably getting a false sign on your patches due to the brush deteriorating in the solvent.
Lowlight had a thread on cleaning around here somewhere. I'm sure someone will come up with a link for you.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
The rifle is still shooting extremely well. I had a couple of groups at .25 MOA. The rest between .5 and .75 MOA. The copper fouling are very vivid copper streaks in each groove from the edges and covers about half the groove with the center of the groove with any copper at all.
The rifle is still shooting extremely well. I had a couple of groups at .25 MOA. The rest between .5 and .75 MOA. The copper fouling are very vivid copper streaks in each groove from the edges and covers about half the groove with the center of the groove with any copper at all.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulsnapp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently received my M24 from Texas Brigade Armory and have a couple of questions. The barrel is supposed to be a Mike Rock 5R Stainless Steel. When I look into the receiver, where the barrel was machined for the .308 case, it is nice and shiny just like stainless steel. At the muzzle end, there is just a trace of shiny metal showing just around the edge of the end of the rifling and before the Duracote begins. But, when I look into the barrel from the muzzle end with a penlight it does not appear shiny at all, it is rather dull gray to slightly charcoal color. Is this how it is supposed to look or should the whole bore be shiny? I know this is a stupid question but I don't know what I should be seeing. Maybe heat changes the appearance? It looked like this when I received it from TBA and I am sure it had a couple of rounds through it there, there was also copper showing. I cleaned it for a couple of hours to get rid of the copper but the bore still gray. Thursday I went to the range and fired 30 rounds. I cleaned between every round for first 10, every second round for next ten and every third round for final 10. When I got home to clean it there was a lot of copper fouling. The Hoppes copper solvent I had would not touch it. The local gunsmith gave me some JB Bore Paste to get it out. I cleaned again for a couple of hours before I got it all out. Same thing on Friday. I went to the range and fired 50 more rounds and continued with my cleaning process at the range. When I got home, same thing, a lot of copper fouling. I again cleaned almost two hours to get it out with JB Bore Paste, Hoppes regular solvent and a lot of brushing and patches. After all of this, the bore is still not shiny inside, still gray looking. I can run a brass brush with solvent 3 or 4 times and follow with a wet solvent patch and it comes out with black. Following with a dry patch is comes out almost clean. If I repeat the brass brush and solvent patch it comes out black again, dry patch comes out clean. I never get a clean wet patch after brushing. I have to believe the bore is squeeky clean after so many passes. Is all of this normal or am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated? </div></div>
Bear in mind something else, which I just learned- your bristles are likely dirty- in the cleaning equation, they are the only element that is not new each time you pass through the bore. Your patches and solvent obviously are. So you're taking a used tool full of the junk it's meant to collect and running it through the bore each time. I have now switched to only passing the brush through once or twice at the beginning. After that, it's only wet and dry patches. Think about it- after 1-2 passes, how much could the same bristles be rubbing loose that's new? I learned this the hard way using my Otis kit after burning hours and many patches being like "WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THIS COMING FROM??!" when the bore appeared silky smooth
To clean the bristles, use non-chlorinated brake cleaner from an auto parts store.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulsnapp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently received my M24 from Texas Brigade Armory and have a couple of questions. The barrel is supposed to be a Mike Rock 5R Stainless Steel. When I look into the receiver, where the barrel was machined for the .308 case, it is nice and shiny just like stainless steel. At the muzzle end, there is just a trace of shiny metal showing just around the edge of the end of the rifling and before the Duracote begins. But, when I look into the barrel from the muzzle end with a penlight it does not appear shiny at all, it is rather dull gray to slightly charcoal color. Is this how it is supposed to look or should the whole bore be shiny? I know this is a stupid question but I don't know what I should be seeing. Maybe heat changes the appearance? It looked like this when I received it from TBA and I am sure it had a couple of rounds through it there, there was also copper showing. I cleaned it for a couple of hours to get rid of the copper but the bore still gray. Thursday I went to the range and fired 30 rounds. I cleaned between every round for first 10, every second round for next ten and every third round for final 10. When I got home to clean it there was a lot of copper fouling. The Hoppes copper solvent I had would not touch it. The local gunsmith gave me some JB Bore Paste to get it out. I cleaned again for a couple of hours before I got it all out. Same thing on Friday. I went to the range and fired 50 more rounds and continued with my cleaning process at the range. When I got home, same thing, a lot of copper fouling. I again cleaned almost two hours to get it out with JB Bore Paste, Hoppes regular solvent and a lot of brushing and patches. After all of this, the bore is still not shiny inside, still gray looking. I can run a brass brush with solvent 3 or 4 times and follow with a wet solvent patch and it comes out with black. Following with a dry patch is comes out almost clean. If I repeat the brass brush and solvent patch it comes out black again, dry patch comes out clean. I never get a clean wet patch after brushing. I have to believe the bore is squeeky clean after so many passes. Is all of this normal or am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated? </div></div>
Bear in mind something else, which I just learned- your bristles are likely dirty- in the cleaning equation, they are the only element that is not new each time you pass through the bore. Your patches and solvent obviously are. So you're taking a used tool full of the junk it's meant to collect and running it through the bore each time. I have now switched to only passing the brush through once or twice at the beginning. After that, it's only wet and dry patches. Think about it- after 1-2 passes, how much could the same bristles be rubbing loose that's new? I learned this the hard way using my Otis kit after burning hours and many patches being like "WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THIS COMING FROM??!" when the bore appeared silky smooth
To clean the bristles, use non-chlorinated brake cleaner from an auto parts store.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
I was just going to say the same thing that BigBrother did. Now that your barrel is well broke in, clean it when you're done shooting or get home. If you're a benchrest guy maybe clean it after groups open up, but I wouldn't worry about that.
I worried about the copper in my rifles as well when patches still came out blue. But then I started cleaning my bore brushes with brake cleaner. That reduced the blueing on the patches. Also try nylon brushes and see if it's still as bad.
I was just going to say the same thing that BigBrother did. Now that your barrel is well broke in, clean it when you're done shooting or get home. If you're a benchrest guy maybe clean it after groups open up, but I wouldn't worry about that.
I worried about the copper in my rifles as well when patches still came out blue. But then I started cleaning my bore brushes with brake cleaner. That reduced the blueing on the patches. Also try nylon brushes and see if it's still as bad.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Lay off the cleaning a bit and shoot some more rounds thru it.If the rifle shoots dont look to fix it.Nothing is wrong.If the rifle wont hold groups at any give range,change the shooter or the ammo.
Lay off the cleaning a bit and shoot some more rounds thru it.If the rifle shoots dont look to fix it.Nothing is wrong.If the rifle wont hold groups at any give range,change the shooter or the ammo.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Bro, step AWAY from the JB paste, have someone else grab it and throw it away! You may have just voided the warranty on your barrel. FWIW every time you run that stuff in your bore you leave "micro" scratches and you are basically Breaking it in again every time you go and shoot it after using the JB. Just shoot and clean every 150-200+ rounds WITH OUT JB and you will be fine. Those 5R barrels like to get abused as far as not cleaning goes.
Who cares what it looks like on the inside now, it will smooth out over time regardless. Does it shoot?....................
Bro, step AWAY from the JB paste, have someone else grab it and throw it away! You may have just voided the warranty on your barrel. FWIW every time you run that stuff in your bore you leave "micro" scratches and you are basically Breaking it in again every time you go and shoot it after using the JB. Just shoot and clean every 150-200+ rounds WITH OUT JB and you will be fine. Those 5R barrels like to get abused as far as not cleaning goes.
Who cares what it looks like on the inside now, it will smooth out over time regardless. Does it shoot?....................
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Wholly crap. The inside is never going to be as "shinny" as it outside. Heat, powder, bullets going 2700 + FPS have a tendency to do that.
Step away from the cleaning and shoot it. My .308 now has over 400 rounds before the last cleaning. Clean when the accuracy drops off, and stop worrying about copper in the barrel. Carbon build up will kill accuracy long before copper every will.
Wholly crap. The inside is never going to be as "shinny" as it outside. Heat, powder, bullets going 2700 + FPS have a tendency to do that.
Step away from the cleaning and shoot it. My .308 now has over 400 rounds before the last cleaning. Clean when the accuracy drops off, and stop worrying about copper in the barrel. Carbon build up will kill accuracy long before copper every will.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Good groups, shoots well, goes bang.
What's the problem
Screw cleaning I'd rather shoot.
Good groups, shoots well, goes bang.
What's the problem
Screw cleaning I'd rather shoot.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Try to get a stainless tornado brush and chuck it up in a handheld drill! Use Valve grinding compound and keep the drill at about 1800 rpm's! Make sure you go all the way out and spin around the crown for a few minutes to make sure....This should take care of all your copper fouling! Make sure there are no land and grooves left as they contribute to the fouling!
On a serious note; go out and shoot, and don't stress about cleaning! Probably doing more damage than good!
Try to get a stainless tornado brush and chuck it up in a handheld drill! Use Valve grinding compound and keep the drill at about 1800 rpm's! Make sure you go all the way out and spin around the crown for a few minutes to make sure....This should take care of all your copper fouling! Make sure there are no land and grooves left as they contribute to the fouling!
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
If the copper is bugging you that bad, make an electronic bore cleaner to get it out. Me, I don't clean until the accuracy starts to drop off.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Copper Worked great on a Garand barrel I had that was loaded full of copper.
If the copper is bugging you that bad, make an electronic bore cleaner to get it out. Me, I don't clean until the accuracy starts to drop off.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Copper Worked great on a Garand barrel I had that was loaded full of copper.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulsnapp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently received my M24 from Texas Brigade Armory and have a couple of questions. The barrel is supposed to be a Mike Rock 5R Stainless Steel. When I look into the receiver, where the barrel was machined for the .308 case, it is nice and shiny just like stainless steel. At the muzzle end, there is just a trace of shiny metal showing just around the edge of the end of the rifling and before the Duracote begins. But, when I look into the barrel from the muzzle end with a penlight it does not appear shiny at all, it is rather dull gray to slightly charcoal color. Is this how it is supposed to look or should the whole bore be shiny? I know this is a stupid question but I don't know what I should be seeing. Maybe heat changes the appearance? It looked like this when I received it from TBA and I am sure it had a couple of rounds through it there, there was also copper showing. I cleaned it for a couple of hours to get rid of the copper but the bore still gray. Thursday I went to the range and fired 30 rounds. I cleaned between every round for first 10, every second round for next ten and every third round for final 10. When I got home to clean it there was a lot of copper fouling. The Hoppes copper solvent I had would not touch it. The local gunsmith gave me some JB Bore Paste to get it out. I cleaned again for a couple of hours before I got it all out. Same thing on Friday. I went to the range and fired 50 more rounds and continued with my cleaning process at the range. When I got home, same thing, a lot of copper fouling. I again cleaned almost two hours to get it out with JB Bore Paste, Hoppes regular solvent and a lot of brushing and patches. After all of this, the bore is still not shiny inside, still gray looking. I can run a brass brush with solvent 3 or 4 times and follow with a wet solvent patch and it comes out with black. Following with a dry patch is comes out almost clean. If I repeat the brass brush and solvent patch it comes out black again, dry patch comes out clean. I never get a clean wet patch after brushing. I have to believe the bore is squeeky clean after so many passes. Is all of this normal or am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated?</div></div>
First, you're being somewhat anal about it. Perhaps, a little guilt over spending so much money is precluding you from the happiness you expected. Certainly, you're seeking to find fault in something that was likely faultless until you started sabotaging it.
Now, maybe you did, or did not, damage the barrel. Since accuracy is relative, you can't know for sure if some of the edge has been removed (no pun intended); but, at any rate, it likely is not going to matter.
Here's my suggestion, have fun with the gun. Using it, learn something about good shooting, and, enter some competitions. Once you get really good, and you will when the focus is on shooting rather than the gun, you'll know when it's time to send your rifle back to the builder for a fresh barrel. But, for now, just remember all barrels are temporary. If ya shoot your rifle, the barrel will wear out. So, don't fret too much over it, and, see a doctor over that anal thing-life is too short to waste time on mental activity of such little importance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulsnapp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently received my M24 from Texas Brigade Armory and have a couple of questions. The barrel is supposed to be a Mike Rock 5R Stainless Steel. When I look into the receiver, where the barrel was machined for the .308 case, it is nice and shiny just like stainless steel. At the muzzle end, there is just a trace of shiny metal showing just around the edge of the end of the rifling and before the Duracote begins. But, when I look into the barrel from the muzzle end with a penlight it does not appear shiny at all, it is rather dull gray to slightly charcoal color. Is this how it is supposed to look or should the whole bore be shiny? I know this is a stupid question but I don't know what I should be seeing. Maybe heat changes the appearance? It looked like this when I received it from TBA and I am sure it had a couple of rounds through it there, there was also copper showing. I cleaned it for a couple of hours to get rid of the copper but the bore still gray. Thursday I went to the range and fired 30 rounds. I cleaned between every round for first 10, every second round for next ten and every third round for final 10. When I got home to clean it there was a lot of copper fouling. The Hoppes copper solvent I had would not touch it. The local gunsmith gave me some JB Bore Paste to get it out. I cleaned again for a couple of hours before I got it all out. Same thing on Friday. I went to the range and fired 50 more rounds and continued with my cleaning process at the range. When I got home, same thing, a lot of copper fouling. I again cleaned almost two hours to get it out with JB Bore Paste, Hoppes regular solvent and a lot of brushing and patches. After all of this, the bore is still not shiny inside, still gray looking. I can run a brass brush with solvent 3 or 4 times and follow with a wet solvent patch and it comes out with black. Following with a dry patch is comes out almost clean. If I repeat the brass brush and solvent patch it comes out black again, dry patch comes out clean. I never get a clean wet patch after brushing. I have to believe the bore is squeeky clean after so many passes. Is all of this normal or am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated?</div></div>
First, you're being somewhat anal about it. Perhaps, a little guilt over spending so much money is precluding you from the happiness you expected. Certainly, you're seeking to find fault in something that was likely faultless until you started sabotaging it.
Now, maybe you did, or did not, damage the barrel. Since accuracy is relative, you can't know for sure if some of the edge has been removed (no pun intended); but, at any rate, it likely is not going to matter.
Here's my suggestion, have fun with the gun. Using it, learn something about good shooting, and, enter some competitions. Once you get really good, and you will when the focus is on shooting rather than the gun, you'll know when it's time to send your rifle back to the builder for a fresh barrel. But, for now, just remember all barrels are temporary. If ya shoot your rifle, the barrel will wear out. So, don't fret too much over it, and, see a doctor over that anal thing-life is too short to waste time on mental activity of such little importance.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Sounds like you were well on your way to ruining your new rifle........hopefully you have not screwed the crown up.
First, if it's still streaking copper, I doubt it's a Rock 5R.......should not be copper fouling after 15rds, much less 50...
NEVER use JB's on your rifle.
The black stuff you are seeing is your BARREL metal.
Brass brushing is fine, but shoot the rifle until it starts to show accuracy loss.
Not until....
Unless your using moly, or ball powder.
If so, the use an old worn brush, and some SLP200, or GM Top Engine cleaner, and short stroke the first 4-6"'s of the throat, to get rid of carbon in the throat area only.
Count the lands, and see how many you have...........if it's more than 5.
Call TBA.
Sounds like you were well on your way to ruining your new rifle........hopefully you have not screwed the crown up.
First, if it's still streaking copper, I doubt it's a Rock 5R.......should not be copper fouling after 15rds, much less 50...
NEVER use JB's on your rifle.
The black stuff you are seeing is your BARREL metal.
Brass brushing is fine, but shoot the rifle until it starts to show accuracy loss.
Not until....
Unless your using moly, or ball powder.
If so, the use an old worn brush, and some SLP200, or GM Top Engine cleaner, and short stroke the first 4-6"'s of the throat, to get rid of carbon in the throat area only.
Count the lands, and see how many you have...........if it's more than 5.
Call TBA.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
My barrel is a Bartlein 5R:
1. Pro Shot copper solvent (smells like windex--no ammonia)
2. Brass brush about 10 strokes
3. Take brush off Dewey Rod and soak/rinse in plain water to get solvent off brush. If you don't do this, the solvent will eventually eat your brush away.
4. Wet patch of Pro Shot using Dewey jag--swab it back and forth about 10x. Patch comes out looking black.
5. Fresh wet patch--one pass. Often dirty/blue
6. Wait 5-10 min
7. Wet patch--light blue--sometimes
8. Dry patch
9. Dry patch
10. Dry patch--clean/white--no trace of blue/black
11. Wet oiled patch
12. Done!
Total of 7 patches, including final oiled patch. Any match 5R barrel should clean up about like this. Now if it is a factory Remington barrel, then all bets are off.
Also, once the barrel is broken in, if you believe in that, then only clean once accuracy starts to fall off.
My barrel is a Bartlein 5R:
1. Pro Shot copper solvent (smells like windex--no ammonia)
2. Brass brush about 10 strokes
3. Take brush off Dewey Rod and soak/rinse in plain water to get solvent off brush. If you don't do this, the solvent will eventually eat your brush away.
4. Wet patch of Pro Shot using Dewey jag--swab it back and forth about 10x. Patch comes out looking black.
5. Fresh wet patch--one pass. Often dirty/blue
6. Wait 5-10 min
7. Wet patch--light blue--sometimes
8. Dry patch
9. Dry patch
10. Dry patch--clean/white--no trace of blue/black
11. Wet oiled patch
12. Done!
Total of 7 patches, including final oiled patch. Any match 5R barrel should clean up about like this. Now if it is a factory Remington barrel, then all bets are off.
Also, once the barrel is broken in, if you believe in that, then only clean once accuracy starts to fall off.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
The bore should not look shiny I repeat should not look shiny, the finish that you are seeing is what it should look like. The other thing you just did is void the warranty on the barrel by using JB I hate to tell you this but all JB does is polish your barrel and that is not what you want to do. I don't know how many times I have to post this but never use JB, Flitz or Iosso in our barrels. I also have said if you think you need to use these products please call me first so we can talk about it before you do something to void your warranty. Guys please I beg you too call me or PM me if you think you have a problem I am on here all the time to answer questions if I can or call me at the shop I always check my PM's atleast 3 times a day during the week and I try to check in atleast once a day on the weekend unless I'm gone out of town.
Paul Tolvstad
Rock Creek Barrels
The bore should not look shiny I repeat should not look shiny, the finish that you are seeing is what it should look like. The other thing you just did is void the warranty on the barrel by using JB I hate to tell you this but all JB does is polish your barrel and that is not what you want to do. I don't know how many times I have to post this but never use JB, Flitz or Iosso in our barrels. I also have said if you think you need to use these products please call me first so we can talk about it before you do something to void your warranty. Guys please I beg you too call me or PM me if you think you have a problem I am on here all the time to answer questions if I can or call me at the shop I always check my PM's atleast 3 times a day during the week and I try to check in atleast once a day on the weekend unless I'm gone out of town.
Paul Tolvstad
Rock Creek Barrels
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Paul, when did your policy about JB take place? Years ago Mike used to recommend it; just for breakin at least.
Paul, when did your policy about JB take place? Years ago Mike used to recommend it; just for breakin at least.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Turk,
We changed the way we lap a couple of years ago from the way Mike always lapped and the finish of the barrels is now much better.
Turk,
We changed the way we lap a couple of years ago from the way Mike always lapped and the finish of the barrels is now much better.
Re: M24 Barrel Questions
Makes sense. Thanks for the reply; as we can all use helpful info!
Regards
Makes sense. Thanks for the reply; as we can all use helpful info!
Regards
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