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M40A1 Loads and the SMK 175 BTHP.

mcm308

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 2, 2008
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Bloomfield, NJ
Who has an M40A1 and hand loads for it? Lets keep this for that specific rifle and maybe the A3.
I am starting fresh after a 10 year hiatus. I will be starting with an old pet load to begin load development again but I forget what seating depth was. I may keep the charge the same and fine tune the length first. What kind of jump and OAL are your M40A1's liking?

My starting load will be,
Federal brass
IMR 4064 @ 41.5g
Federal 210M primers
175 SMK
2.82 overall
That should pretty good starting point.

Lets hear about your pet loads for the A1.
 
I suggest do a ladder test over a chrono or LabRadar to see where your rifle’s node are on the charge weight curve. Otherwise you may be doing a lot of guessing.

That said, The 175 does like charges in the 40.8-41.5 range when using 4064, depending upon what brass you use...I believe AB39 (Mk316 mod 0) uses 40.8 or so in a “FC” Mil case.
 
I dont have a chrono and what am I guessing at?

Get a chrono- they’re not that expensive...You’re loading in the dark without it. You are guessing at where your rifles “accuracy” nodes are relative to charge weight as well as the pressure threshold, expressed in terms of powder charge.

When loading for a rifle, I charge ~15 cases, starting with a lower charge weight then each subsequent case gets a charge .2 grains higher than the last. For example, I’m loading for my m40A5 using the 185 Berger and IMR4064. I started at 38g and went up to 42g in .2 grain increments. I fired them all in succession, recording the velocities on lab radar and writing them as I went. What I was looking for was adjacent charge weights in the string with roughly the same muzzle velocity; there is usually three with the same or very similar velocities. If you were to graph this data, those adjacent charge weights with the similar muzzle velocities show up as flat spots on the line in the graph.

Most rifles give you two such nodes, one lower on the curve, another higher up near the pressure threshold. Ideally your higher MV node occurs before you start seeing pressure signs.

I believe this is also referred to this as the “Saterlee”test.

Anyone’s pet loads are for their rifles, and every rifle is different in terms of the exact load it likes and will shoot. The 175 is fairly easy to find a good combo that gives consistent performance down range. Shouldn’t take you too long to work something up once you get a chrono or labradar. Don’t just go by group size at 100 yards (like a lot of people do). You need a means to record your muzzle velocities.
 
Get a chrono- they’re not that expensive...You’re loading in the dark without it. You are guessing at where your rifles “accuracy” nodes are relative to charge weight as well as the pressure threshold, expressed in terms of powder charge.

When loading for a rifle, I charge ~15 cases, starting with a lower charge weight then each subsequent case gets a charge .2 grains higher than the last. For example, I’m loading for my m40A5 using the 185 Berger and IMR4064. I started at 38g and went up to 42g in .2 grain increments. I fired them all in succession, recording the velocities on lab radar and writing them as I went. What I was looking for was adjacent charge weights in the string with roughly the same muzzle velocity; there is usually three with the same or very similar velocities. If you were to graph this data, those adjacent charge weights with the similar muzzle velocities show up as flat spots on the line in the graph.

Most rifles give you two such nodes, one lower on the curve, another higher up near the pressure threshold. Ideally your higher MV node occurs before you start seeing pressure signs.

I believe this is also referred to this as the “Saterlee”test.

Anyone’s pet loads are for their rifles, and every rifle is different in terms of the exact load it likes and will shoot. The 175 is fairly easy to find a good combo that gives consistent performance down range. Shouldn’t take you too long to work something up once you get a chrono or labradar. Don’t just go by group size at 100 yards (like a lot of people do). You need a means to record your muzzle velocities.


Ladder testing and group sizes at 100 has worked out pretty well for me. Not everyone needs state of the art technology to find what a particular rifle likes and shoot bugholes. I can start at 40g and work up or I can start at 41.5 which I know is real close and work up and down. End result is the same.
 
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Ladder testing and group sizes at 100 has worked out pretty well for me. Not everyone needs state of the art technology to find what a particular rifle likes and shoot bugholes. I can start at 40g and work up or I can start at 41.5 which I know is real close and work up and down. End result is the same.

Good luck
 
Velocity is nice to know, if only for just another data point. They aren't state-of-the-art the art. Since ballistics was first studied, measuring the velocity of a projectile was a thing.
 
Nice to know it is but not absolutely necessary. Others seem to think it is I guess.

How did we all function without smartphones? If I dont have a smartphone, do I still need to be told "good luck"? Nahh, not my first rodeo but whatever. Its just conversation....
 
If its any help to see someone elses efforts....

 
If its any help to see someone elses efforts....


I didn't go through it yet but that thread pretty much covers this one so maybe @lowlight can delete this one.
 
I didn't go through it yet but that thread pretty much covers this one so maybe @lowlight can delete this one.

You should be able to delete this thread on your own. Go to the three dots at the upper right hand corner and click-you should see an option for “Delete”. Click that and the thread is gone.
...If I dont have a smartphone, do I still need to be told "good luck"? Nahh, not my first rodeo but whatever. Its just conversation....


BTW, I was sincere when I said “good luck”; I did not intend sarcasm but you assumed I did... Looks like you will be doing a lot of assuming during this load development evolution given you refuse to spend a few bucks for a “state of the art” shooting chrony or equivalent.

It’s all good - you do you, man. Let us know how it turns out.
 
Nah different rifles different results.

Alot of what I do can be done better.

Go do better.


We all know different rifles= different results. Tuning the load is fun, isnt it? My M40A1 is also PWS built so its going to interesting to compare what I do to what you have already done. I was surprised to see what happened at 2.8771 with yours. Thats out there. You have done some fine work. Its all trial and error to find what your rifle likes. And everyone has their own way to get there.
 
You should be able to delete this thread on your own. Go to the three dots at the upper right hand corner and click-you should see an option for “Delete”. Click that and the thread is gone.



BTW, I was sincere when I said “good luck”; I did not intend sarcasm but you assumed I did... Looks like you will be doing a lot of assuming during this load development evolution given you refuse to spend a few bucks for a “state of the art” shooting chrony or equivalent.

It’s all good - you do you, man. Let us know how it turns out.


Once again, you insist on me having a Chronograph to produce the most accurate loads for my rifle and and if I don't have it Im just assuming things. That may be the way you work and thats fine. "You keep doing you". That is probably the only way you know so thats why your insisting its the only way and well.. any other way is just an assumption.
 
Once again, you insist on me having a Chronograph to produce the most accurate loads for my rifle and and if I don't have it Im just assuming things. That may be the way you work and thats fine. "You keep doing you". That is probably the only way you know so thats why your insisting its the only way and well.. any other way is just an assumption.

All things equal, I’d rather have the hard data. When I started developing loads, I used your method, guess and check. It resulted in a lot of time/money/ammo wasted. Started using a chrono and got better results much faster. Eliminates all the guessing.

Edit: just curious, what do you have against collecting muzzle velocity data? It’s a really odd position to take, given how important it is in load development.
 
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All things equal, I’d rather have the hard data. When I started developing loads, I used your method, guess and check. It resulted in a lot of time/money/ammo wasted. Started using a chrono and got better results much faster. Eliminates all the guessing.

Alright.. mind you, I was taught by an old timer and I haven't fired a rifle in 10 years, so I ask you this. What exactly is a chrono going to do for me other then telling me velocity? We still have to work through the load range and lengths to find what the optimal load is chrono or not, yes? When I work up a load and start punching one hole groups, do you think I care about specific velocity? Group size speaks for itself. How will a chrono get me to that optimal load faster? How much money and rounds down range will it save me?
 
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All things equal, I’d rather have the hard data. When I started developing loads, I used your method, guess and check. It resulted in a lot of time/money/ammo wasted. Started using a chrono and got better results much faster. Eliminates all the guessing.

Edit: just curious, what do you have against collecting muzzle velocity data? It’s a really odd position to take, given how important it is in load development.


I was typing while you were editing. I dont have anything against it. Just the way I was taught I guess. Back when I was shooting, Ive seen the guys with those fancy benchrest guns setup with chronos. Here I am plopping down with my clunky "sniper rifle" shooting just as good, better then some. Never had the need for it I guess...
 
Alright.. mind you, I was taught by an old timer and I haven't fired a rifle in 10 years, so I ask you this. What exactly is a chrono going to do for me other then telling me velocity? We still have to work through the load range and lengths to find what the optimal load is chrono or not, yes? When I work up a load and start punching one hole groups, do you think I care about specific velocity? Group size speaks for itself. How will a chrono get me to that optimal load faster? How much money and rounds down range will it save me?

If you are only planning to shoot at 100 yards, then you’re prob right - it doesn’t matter. Then again, it would be an unconscionable waste of that platform. I’m not assuming that’s the case with you as I have no idea of your shooting patterns.

Otherwise, gathering MV with a chrono will tell you (or enable you to calculate) the two things you need to know to determine how consistent you load really is: SD and ES. It will tell you if your load adjustments (charge weight increases or decreases, seating depth adjustments, primer swaps, etc) were the right adjustments to make (did the SD/ES go up or down with those changes and to what extent?)...bullet holes by themselves at 100 yards can’t give you that information. Anyone can shoot a decent group at 100, unless they aren’t trying or there is something wrong with their ammo, scope or rifle itself. But if you want to know if that load is likely or not to hold a tight vertical dispersion at say, 800, you will need MV data to see how consistent the load is coming out of the muzzle, round over round.

If I do my job as a hand loader, any load I create should be such that I can grab a random round from that load’s production lot and, when I shoot it, it will perform just like any other randomly selected round from the same load / prod lot in similar conditions across all of those rounds. If they are consistent, my probability of making a first round hit at distance is much higher than not, assuming I do my part. You won’t know either way how consistent your ammo is unless you measure for MV.

Plus, I’d want to know what impact different AOs and conditions have on my velocity so I can adjust and still hit the target in as little rounds as possible. If you never go anywhere else with the rifle and live in an area with minimal environmental changes throughout the year (San Diego), this aspect is irrelevant.

Lastly, I can track how the system is performing over time (not as critical with a. 308 but important with magnums and other cartridges with short barrel lives). For example, I took my Mk13 out one day in Feb (about 100 rounds down the barrel from when it was new at that time) and discovered my muzzle velocity for my load increased by 90 fps relative to what it was when brand new when I initially developed its 190g smk-based load. I hadnt taken a MV reading in a while so elected to do so. This was done during zero confirmation with Labradar. That new information changed my entire dope card. I usually shoot that rifle at targets starting at 800 out to 1500 at roughly MOA sized pieces of steel. Without labradar I wouldn’t have realized this and wondered why I’m air-mailing my targets. Who knows how many rounds I may have fired before I got on target (don’t want to needlessly consume barrel life, esp with a rifle with a projected barrel life between 1200-1500 rounds). Just one example of personal experience arguing for the collection of MV data that comes to mind. There is a reason why you see so many bench rest shooters with chronos - do you think they are competing for tightest group at 100? Watch any of Frank’s (a world class shooter) YouTube vids on the snipers hide YouTube channel. Chances are he has a lab radar set up if the video involves shooting and testing a rifle or ammo. Why do you think he would feel the need to collect MV data?

To me, rifles like the M40A1 are meant to be shot at long range (long range starts at 600 yards in my mind). If you don’t know how consistent your load is using MV as a means of measuring consistency, it will take you longer and cost more in time and money spent to get there all things equal.

Who knows, you may get lucky on your first try or someone else’s pet load will work great in your gun. I sincerely hope to you do. I’m not that lucky (wish I was)....My lab radar was $600.00 about 4 years ago. That thing has more then paid for itself since.
🍻
 
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If you are only planning to shoot at 100 yards, then you’re prob right - it doesn’t matter. Then again, it would be an unconscionable waste of that platform. I’m not assuming that’s the case with you as I have no idea of your shooting patterns.

Otherwise, gathering MV with a chrono will tell you (or enable you to calculate) the two things you need to know to determine how consistent you load really is: SD and ES. It will tell you if your load adjustments (charge weight increases or decreases, seating depth adjustments, primer swaps, etc) were the right adjustments to make (did the SD/ES go up or down with those changes and to what extent?)...bullet holes by themselves at 100 yards can’t give you that information. Anyone can shoot a decent group at 100, unless they aren’t trying or there is something wrong with their ammo, scope or rifle itself. But if you want to know if that load is likely or not to hold a tight vertical dispersion at say, 800, you will need MV data to see how consistent the load is coming out of the muzzle, round over round.

If I do my job as a hand loader, any load I create should be such that I can grab a random round from that load’s production lot and, when I shoot it, it will perform just like any other randomly selected round from the same load / prod lot in similar conditions across all of those rounds. If they are consistent, my probability of making a first round hit at distance is much higher than not, assuming I do my part. You won’t know either way how consistent your ammo is unless you measure for MV.

Plus, I’d want to know what impact different AOs and conditions have on my velocity so I can adjust and still hit the target in as little rounds as possible. If you never go anywhere else with the rifle and live in an area with minimal environmental changes throughout the year (San Diego), this aspect is irrelevant.

Lastly, I can track how the system is performing over time (not as critical with a. 308 but important with magnums and other cartridges with short barrel lives). For example, I took my Mk13 out one day in Feb (about 100 rounds down the barrel from when it was new at that time) and discovered my muzzle velocity for my load increased by 90 fps relative to what it was when brand new when I initially developed its 190g smk-based load. I hadnt taken a MV reading in a while so elected to do so. This was done during zero confirmation with Labradar. That new information changed my entire dope card. I usually shoot that rifle at targets starting at 800 out to 1500 at roughly MOA sized pieces of steel. Without labradar I wouldn’t have realized this and wondered why I’m air-mailing my targets. Who knows how many rounds I may have fired before I got on target (don’t want to needlessly consume barrel life, esp with a rifle with a projected barrel life between 1200-1500 rounds). Just one example of personal experience arguing for the collection of MV data that comes to mind. There is a reason why you see so many bench rest shooters with chronos - do you think they are competing for tightest group at 100? Watch any of Frank’s (a world class shooter) YouTube vids on the snipers hide YouTube channel. Chances are he has a lab radar set up if the video involves shooting and testing a rifle or ammo. Why do you think he would feel the need to collect MV data?

To me, rifles like the M40A1 are meant to be shot at long range (long range starts at 600 yards in my mind). If you don’t know how consistent your load is using MV as a means of measuring consistency, it will take you longer and cost more in time and money spent to get there all things equal.

Who knows, you may get lucky on your first try or someone else’s pet load will work great in your gun. I sincerely hope to you do. I’m not that lucky (wish I was)....My lab radar was $600.00 about 4 years ago. That thing has more then paid for itself since.
🍻

you have way more patience than I. Good post
 
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Great info and yes, I see the worthy in it. Id love to be able to shoot to 1000 on a regular basis but Im cutoff at 300 yards.
 
Shoot an OCW, find you charge weight, tune your group size with OAL, confirm vertical spread at distance. All done with no chronograph. I don't use a chronograph until load development is done. I know I am not the only one. No dicking around looking for randomly overlapping SD for me. I consider hard data to be what is on the target.
 
If you are only planning to shoot at 100 yards, then you’re prob right - it doesn’t matter. Then again, it would be an unconscionable waste of that platform. I’m not assuming that’s the case with you as I have no idea of your shooting patterns.

Otherwise, gathering MV with a chrono will tell you (or enable you to calculate) the two things you need to know to determine how consistent you load really is: SD and ES. It will tell you if your load adjustments (charge weight increases or decreases, seating depth adjustments, primer swaps, etc) were the right adjustments to make (did the SD/ES go up or down with those changes and to what extent?)...bullet holes by themselves at 100 yards can’t give you that information. Anyone can shoot a decent group at 100, unless they aren’t trying or there is something wrong with their ammo, scope or rifle itself. But if you want to know if that load is likely or not to hold a tight vertical dispersion at say, 800, you will need MV data to see how consistent the load is coming out of the muzzle, round over round.

If I do my job as a hand loader, any load I create should be such that I can grab a random round from that load’s production lot and, when I shoot it, it will perform just like any other randomly selected round from the same load / prod lot in similar conditions across all of those rounds. If they are consistent, my probability of making a first round hit at distance is much higher than not, assuming I do my part. You won’t know either way how consistent your ammo is unless you measure for MV.

Plus, I’d want to know what impact different AOs and conditions have on my velocity so I can adjust and still hit the target in as little rounds as possible. If you never go anywhere else with the rifle and live in an area with minimal environmental changes throughout the year (San Diego), this aspect is irrelevant.

Lastly, I can track how the system is performing over time (not as critical with a. 308 but important with magnums and other cartridges with short barrel lives). For example, I took my Mk13 out one day in Feb (about 100 rounds down the barrel from when it was new at that time) and discovered my muzzle velocity for my load increased by 90 fps relative to what it was when brand new when I initially developed its 190g smk-based load. I hadnt taken a MV reading in a while so elected to do so. This was done during zero confirmation with Labradar. That new information changed my entire dope card. I usually shoot that rifle at targets starting at 800 out to 1500 at roughly MOA sized pieces of steel. Without labradar I wouldn’t have realized this and wondered why I’m air-mailing my targets. Who knows how many rounds I may have fired before I got on target (don’t want to needlessly consume barrel life, esp with a rifle with a projected barrel life between 1200-1500 rounds). Just one example of personal experience arguing for the collection of MV data that comes to mind. There is a reason why you see so many bench rest shooters with chronos - do you think they are competing for tightest group at 100? Watch any of Frank’s (a world class shooter) YouTube vids on the snipers hide YouTube channel. Chances are he has a lab radar set up if the video involves shooting and testing a rifle or ammo. Why do you think he would feel the need to collect MV data?

To me, rifles like the M40A1 are meant to be shot at long range (long range starts at 600 yards in my mind). If you don’t know how consistent your load is using MV as a means of measuring consistency, it will take you longer and cost more in time and money spent to get there all things equal.

Who knows, you may get lucky on your first try or someone else’s pet load will work great in your gun. I sincerely hope to you do. I’m not that lucky (wish I was)....My lab radar was $600.00 about 4 years ago. That thing has more then paid for itself since.
🍻
Well said. I agree
 
Great info and yes, I see the worthy in it. Id love to be able to shoot to 1000 on a regular basis but Im cutoff at 300 yards.
Mcm308, invest in a chronograph if your going to reload for rifle, by having this will help you fine tune your rounds to be more consistent and save alot of guess work. Once you have a chronograph and learn what's its telling you, you'd wish you had one long ago. Listen to what nn8734 is telling you, because hes right.
 
Who has an M40A1 and hand loads for it? Lets keep this for that specific rifle and maybe the A3.
I am starting fresh after a 10 year hiatus. I will be starting with an old pet load to begin load development again but I forget what seating depth was. I may keep the charge the same and fine tune the length first. What kind of jump and OAL are your M40A1's liking?

My starting load will be,
Federal brass
IMR 4064 @ 41.5g
Federal 210M primers
175 SMK
2.82 overall
That should pretty good starting point.

Lets hear about your pet loads for the A1.
I use 41.7 of imr 4064, using lapua brass, gold metal match 210 primers, 175smk bullets running around 2583 to 2600fps

I use the same load of 41.7 of RL-15 using lapua and nosler brass, and gmm210m primers I weigh the all brass, bullets, trying to get it as consistent as possible

I use a load of 41.8g of varget, using in federal gmm brass, along with 210m primers, smk175 bullet with a velocity of 2580 to 2600 fps. I've shot to a 1000yds using anyloads lve mentioned and they work very well. I'm working on trying some 175g berger bullets i have but haven't had time to see how they work yet.
 
I use 41.7 of imr 4064, using lapua brass, gold metal match 210 primers, 175smk bullets running around 2583 to 2600fps

I use the same load of 41.7 of RL-15 using lapua and nosler brass, and gmm210m primers I weigh the all brass, bullets, trying to get it as consistent as possible

I use a load of 41.8g of varget, using in federal gmm brass, along with 210m primers, smk175 bullet with a velocity of 2580 to 2600 fps. I've shot to a 1000yds using anyloads lve mentioned and they work very well. I'm working on trying some 175g berger bullets i have but haven't had time to see how they work yet.


I got a 100 test loads ready to go. After 20 sighters to zero scope, then I'll see what I produce. Most are loaded between 41.5 and 42.0 of 4064. Federal cases, 210M primers. Man I use sort brass and bullets by weight but not this time. I'll see how my first outing goes, and then I'll have fire formed cases to work with for the 2nd outing. I should have an idea and can fine tune things.

If I can sink 5 into a .5 group at 100 with occasional flyer, I'll be happy considering I didn't do the extreme prep work. Right now its FL size, trim to equal length, equal load, equal seating depth but Im not expecting spectacular results first time out with a rifle in 10 years..lol
 
I got a 100 test loads ready to go. After 20 sighters to zero scope, then I'll see what I produce. Most are loaded between 41.5 and 42.0 of 4064. Federal cases, 210M primers. Man I use sort brass and bullets by weight but not this time. I'll see how my first outing goes, and then I'll have fire formed cases to work with for the 2nd outing. I should have an idea and can fine tune things.

If I can sink 5 into a .5 group at 100 with occasional flyer, I'll be happy considering I didn't do the extreme prep work. Right now its FL size, trim to equal length, equal load, equal seating depth but Im not expecting spectacular results first time out with a rifle in 10 years..lol
Good luck.
 
I dont have a chrono and what am I guessing at?

Use 41.74gr 4064 and the 175smk. Chrono's at 2705 +/- about 3 fps.

That is out of a 26in hawk hill 10 twist barrel 2.80 COAL. It groups 1 ragged holes at 100 and dead nuts to 1k.

In my personal experience with that powder and round and different barrels I started at 41.5 and never went past 42.0. Didn't need to. 41.7-41.8gr was the sweet spot. Basically the same that federal uses.