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Gunsmithing M700/clones bolt timing explained

9H_Cracka

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2005
2,796
9
WAY off base (COS CO)
Who wants to go first? We have heard the term bantered about many times. I spoke with 2 trained and experienced gunsmiths locally and neither had a good explanation.

What is it?

How does it effect the rifle when wrong?

How does it effect the rifle when right?

How is it done?

Gurus, have at it please. Thanks.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

there is a cam angle on the end of the receiver where the bolt handle cams and there is the same angle inside the receiver for the lugs to cam on. If one contact before the other it will wear over time leading to loose fitting lugs on lock up
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

The most noticeable problem you will run into if it's wrong is a reduced amount of camming action on extraction. Had one in a while back that would only cam the bolt to the rear about .008 little enough that a case could have stuck easily.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

So here is the deal. I have a friend that is an XC shooter. He has a MAC repeater and an Elisio repeater. The MAC operates smoothly on the rapids and the Elisio has a much harder bolt lift. This is due to the factory differences in the two actions, not the tube kits themselves. In order to get the Elisio-tubed rifle running better, the "timing" seems to be the place to start. Just trying to understand what it is all about. Thanks.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

I ran accross this on Youtube for another subject. he has many vids and if you watch them you might learn a little something,

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Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

I am talking about a Remington 700 here, but I think it is the same or similar on other rifles. Also, this is just my understanding. Imagine as you are sliding the bolt into the action, the bolt handle will start to break over and close as soon as the lugs on the bolt clear the race ways. The only thing to stop the bolt's foreward movement is when the cam ramp on the rear of the action contacts the bolt handle. I suppose if the handle were way off, either the cartridge in the chamber or the bolt face contacting the barrel would create a stop, but for all practical purposes, what stops the bolt is when the cam ramp contacts the bolt handle. Imagine if the handle contacted this cam ramp before the bolt lugs cleared the races, this would be timed wrong. You basically want very little clearance between when the lugs clear the races and when the handle contacts the cam ramp. Now, the main purpose of the cam ramp is to ease extraction. After a round is fired, the bolt handle is raise, and due to the case holding the chamber, the bolt will continue to rotate without moving rearward until the handle contacts the cam ramp. You want this action to be maximized in order to ease extraction. The earlier that the bolt handle contacts the cam ramp while lifting the bolt on a fired case, the more force that angled ramp will be utilized in extraction. So, basically you want the handle to be as close as possible to the lugs to maximize this, while not putting it too close so as to allow the bolt to not close because the races aren't cleared before contact. I think there is a tolerance here, but the I can't see a reason to not get this as tight as possible.

I wish I had a better description or some pictures. But, hope that helps a little.

Dave
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

Once you have the distance figured out, you also need to time the handle radially on the bolt. The handle needs to clear the action on the right side as the bolt is inserted. It also needs to turn far enough to completely clear the firing pin when fired. On this timing, I think the clearing of the firing pin is the most critical aspect, and the clearance of the handle to the action is secondary. I know there are likely tolerace measurements for these, but I don't know what they are.

I am not sure if any of those things will help the bolt lift, but it may help if the issue is a harder extraction.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who wants to go first? We have heard the term bantered about many times. I spoke with 2 trained and experienced gunsmiths locally and neither had a good explanation.

What is it?

How does it effect the rifle when wrong?

How does it effect the rifle when right?

How is it done?

Gurus, have at it please. Thanks. </div></div>

Read this post this morning and before any other posts so I decided to make this little video. These are just some of the tricks and tweaks I do here at Straight Shot Gunsmithing with the 700 and 700 like actions. Hope that it will be helpful.

308nate

Here is the link to the video.
http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=8b2...medium=text_url
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308nate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Read this post this morning and before any other posts so I decided to make this little video. These are just some of the tricks and tweaks I do here at Straight Shot Gunsmithing with the 700 and 700 like actions. Hope that it will be helpful.

308nate

Here is the link to the video.
http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=8b2...medium=text_url</div></div>

Thanks for the video, I certainly learned something!
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

I got a half hour tutorial from another smith on the subject yesterday. Got it pretty well fingered out. Thanks for all the responses.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

SONOFABITCH!!!!!!!!

My stick has had a couple hard to extract cases that I never thought much of, then I go and read/learn this stuff!!
It seems I have .023" clearance on the front of my bolt handle and no engagement of the camming surfaces whatsoever.

Damnit, ignorance is bliss........

Now how to fix it?
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

Nathan Dagley @ straight shot gunsmithing or dans40x from accu-tig can fix it up for you, both are here on the hide
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCA4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why ask?
You should have learned. </div></div>

Because I'm an ex drunk that knows if I ask enough people one will give me the answer I'll like
wink.gif


Dans40x is above the 'hide, just look at his references to the community here on other forums.

SSG sounds very competent, but I think I need to find a local to fix it, I'm not crazy about shipping my rifle off if I can find a good Phx smith.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

I think Dans40x has you measure the gap between the receiver and handle, and you just send the bolt and money to him, he does his majic and sends it right back, his turn time is less than two weeks from your door back to your door.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

I'm going to send Dan a bolt to abracadbra. Now, I don't like what dans40x said about <span style="font-weight: bold">some</span> hide members, but it is not fair to make a sweeping judgement. A catholic blows up and abortion clinic, are all catholics bad because of the actions of one misguided nutcase?
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Dans40x has you measure the gap between the receiver and handle, and you just send the bolt and money to him, he does his majic and sends it right back, his turn time is less than two weeks from your door back to your door. </div></div>

I may have to look into that option, Gonna have to use it as is until after Norcal's match though!
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

Guys, after watching that video, I pulled out my new Surgeon Round action to see how much cam I was getting and what clearance there was in front and back of the bolt handle cutout when the bolt is closed, and the results are troubling.

Im only getting half of the cam which the video above explains at 2:40 into the first video on top of this thread.

the second thing, (watch 1:30 into the same video) there is 10 thou clearance in the back of the bolt handle and bolt handle cutout when the bolt is closed, and about 20-30thou clearance in the front. it should be the other way around, right?

should I be worried or what?
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surgeon actions can run .040. </div></div>

What do you mean?
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

Great video !!Very clear explanation of bolt timing and fixes for the problems .

Howard
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surgeon actions can run .040. </div></div>
What do you mean?</div></div>The benchrest guys are big on bolt timing, but many tactical bolts are much sloppier - even where they're not supposed to be. My Surgeon has no camming whatsoever; and I have seen enough other Surgeons to say that .040 between the bolt handle and the receiver is not unusual. It's not a problem unless I need to get a sticky case out of the chamber using the bolt as a cam. On the other hand, my Templar one-piece bolt, and my Pierce one-piece bolt, are timed perfectly.

I started a thread on bolt timing over a year ago, and George chimed-in with his experience on Surgeon actions and Remingtons. Interesting stuff. I can't find my posts, though, so I think the thread is gone with the last cull of the site. If I remember right, your buddy Dan had a bit of an argument with HateCA on the thread. Randy provided some excellent info. I would love to hear (again) from George or Randy on this.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Dans40x has you measure the gap between the receiver and handle, and you just send the bolt and money to him, he does his majic and sends it right back, his turn time is less than two weeks from your door back to your door. </div></div>

The way it was explained to me a few days ago the gap at the front of the bolt handle is only part of it. If someone is doing this with the bolt only then they are not really timing your action.

(bracing for the wrath of Dans40X)
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

I think Dans40x is taking a break from the Hide, I bet he has a jig he uses to unsure the rest is GTG
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

Don't confuse bolt timing and bolt cam. Two different things but they work together.

Just because you have X amount of clearance between the bolt handle and action does not mean you have timing or cam issues, you need to know what you are looking at.

This is not bench rest shooting, closing up the tolerances too tight can cause you issues in a field gun.

Don't watch a video or have someone tell you that just because you have X amount of gap that you automatically have a problem, because you don't. Don't think because your rifle looks different then what you are seeing in that video that you have an issue, because you might not.

If someone feels they have issues with the bolt then let someone look at it that knows what they are looking at in the big picture.

This has been discussed several times and always turns into a who knows best argument, which I'm not going to entertain again.

Stop and think and see if you can remember over the life of your rifles if you have ever really had an issue with bolt timing and cam.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Dans40x is taking a break from the Hide, I bet he has a jig he uses to unsure the rest is GTG </div></div>

Is that what you choose to call it.....
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

Randy,
Thank you for stopping me from overthinking. After the NorCal match I'll be needing to break into my Lapua brass stash, if I still have intermittetent issues then, maybe I'll have someone look into the extraction timing.
 
Re: M700/clones bolt timing explained

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If someone is doing this with the bolt only then they are not really timing your action.
(bracing for the wrath of Dans40X) </div></div>

Plus I noticed Dan is so down on big bolt knobs, yet the bolt handles he pushes are all longer than factory........curious.