Marine sniper Article, interesting scoped M14.

[pmclaine]

Unsure if this has been posted before.

If it has Ive missed the discussion regards the M14 snipers pictured with what looks like one off mounts and commercial scopes.

Am I mistaken...

A quick look at Marine snipers and their rifles through the years (PHOTOS) :: Guns.com

From the days of World War I through today, dedicated U.S. Marine Corps snipers have used a variety of specially modified rifles to reach out and show off their marksmanship.

www.guns.com

 

[Son of Dorn]

I'm not sure myself but I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising armorers used some one-off and/or commercial stuff on those rifles. Check out a pic I shared earlier of a similar M14 with a suppressor mounted; it looks like it has a similar setup. What interests me is that Sgt Greene's rifle has its rear sight assembly completely removed.

 

[pmclaine]

Looks like there is clearance to run the rear sight and not interfere with the scope. It is odd they didnt leave it in place as a BUIS.

Whats interesting is that before the M40 came along and the USMC was messing with different rifles there is talk of a scope bought at the PX in Okinawa. Its only identification is that it was marked "MARINE" and no one has identified one or found a picture.

Wonder if this could be it.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Looks like there is clearance to run the rear sight and not interfere with the scope. It is odd they didnt leave it in place as a BUIS.

Whats interesting is that before the M40 came along and the USMC was messing with different rifles there is talk of a scope bought at the PX in Okinawa. Its only identification is that it was marked "MARINE" and no one has identified one or found a picture.

Wonder if this could be it.

These posts have some pics of M84 or similar scopes mounted on M14s, and the mounts don't look too dissimilar. So does this one. But Sgt Greene there, his mount seems to be placed farther forward and has more of what I'd call a shell-deflector in its design. Still puzzled over the lack of irons, unless maybe he happened to be lucky and got some kind of a suppressor on it; that'd mean his whole front sight/flash hider was gone so having a rear sight would be pointless. I've seen some photos of modern US troops with Mk14 EBRs with the front sight totally removed, so I dunno.

I wouldn't put it past any sniper to have done his best to create a setup that worked for him when the Army and USMC were still trying to figure out how to turn the M14 into a viable sniper weapon. I've talked to several Vietnam vets about modifying and customizing their gear in-country, from using ammo cans strapped to rucksack frames to keep water out of their stuff to using surgical tubing as a precursor to modern bungee slings; I expect more than a couple guys did the same thing with their weapons.

 

[Random Guy]

Prior to the spring of 1967 there were some odd-ball/ad hoc, or “one off” scopes mounted on M14s, as seen in this post re Sgt Greene’s M14. Beginning in March or April 1967, the US troops in Vietnam started getting a more formal system, which likely negated the need to cobble together something like Sgt Greene’s set-up (and was kind-of against military regulations to remove the rear sights and perform ad hoc modifications to a weapon....)

Here’s some history of the M84 (2.2x) scope w/ AWC base and G&H scope rail and rings. There was an urgent request in 1966 for a telescope-equipped sniper rifle for use in Southeast Asia (SEA). U.S. Army Weapons Command (USAWECOM or AWC for short) responded by developing a telescope mount for use with the M14 rifle. The adopted system utilized a side-mounted steel scope mount (“AWC Mount”), along with leftover WWII-era M1C-based Griffin and Howe (G&H) scope bases with 7/8” rings, and the M84 (2.2X) telescope.

This scope was a design finalized back in April 1945 for use on the M1C (Garand) sniper rifle, but WWII ended in the summer of 1945, and M84s were not put into commercial production until the early 1950s during the Korean War era. (The commercial manufactures were Libby-Owens-Ford, and Leupold & Stevens). Notably, I have read production estimates suggesting that “approximately 30k” or “up to 40k” M84 scopes may have been produced during the 1950s.

The M84 scopes were rather outdated by 1966 due to its low magnification compared to other military scopes being used at that time, but they were relatively robust, and readily available in large numbers within the Army’s supply system. So, several hundred M84 scopes, WWII-era G&H scope bases, and the newly designed AWC M14 scope mounts were shipped to Vietnam in 1967.

This optical system was immediately pressed into service, and presumably used until the end of U.S. combat operations in the Vietnam War. They are often seen in vintage pictures on M14 rifles equipped with the M1C/M1D type leather cheek piece installed.

Production note: According to Peter Senich’s book, The Long-Range War, Rock Island Arsenal shipped 125 ‘match-prepared’ M14 rifles equipped with the AWC/M84 optic system to Vietnam in March 1967, and an additional 425 loose mounts and 356 M84 scopes were also subsequently sent. So reportedly 550 of the AWC scope mounts were shipped to Vietnam. Rifles equipped with this optical system are sometimes called ‘pre-XM21’ sniper rifles. They were used concurrently with the arrival of the AR TEL 3-9x scopes on XM21 rifles that were first fielded in late 1968, and subsequently standardized in Sept 1969.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Prior to the spring of 1967 there were some odd-ball/ad hoc, or “one off” scopes mounted on M14s, as seen in this post re Sgt Greene’s M14. Beginning in March or April 1967, the US troops in Vietnam started getting a more formal system, which likely negated the need to cobble together something like Sgt Greene’s set-up.

Here’s some history of the M84 (2.2x) scope w/ AWC base and G&H scope rail and rings. There was an urgent request in 1966 for a telescope-equipped sniper rifle for use in Southeast Asia (SEA). U.S. Army Weapons Command (USAWECOM or AWC for short) responded by developing a telescope mount for use with the M14 rifle. The adopted system utilized a side-mounted steel scope mount (“AWC Mount”) leftover WWII-era M1C-based Griffin and Howe (G&H) scope bases with 7/8” rings, and the M84 (2.2X) telescope.

This scope was a design finalized back in April 1945 for use on the M1C (Garand) sniper rifle, but WWII ended in the summer of 1945, and M84s were not put into commercial production until the early 1950s during the Korean War era. (The commercial manufactures were Libby-Owens-Ford, and Leupold & Stevens). Notably, I have read production estimates suggesting that “approximately 30k” or “up to 40k” M84 scopes may have been produced during the 1950s.

The M84 scopes were rather outdated by 1966 due to its low magnification compared to other military scopes being used at that time, but they were relatively robust, and readily available in large numbers within the Army’s supply system. So, several hundred M84 scopes, WWII-era G&H scope bases, and the newly designed AWC M14 scope mounts were shipped to Vietnam in 1967.

This optical system was immediately pressed into service, and presumably used until the end of U.S. combat operations in the Vietnam War. They are often seen in vintage pictures on M14 rifles equipped with the M1C/M1D type leather cheek piece pad installed.

Production note: According to Peter Senich’s book, The Long-Range War, Rock Island Arsenal shipped 125 ‘match-prepared’ M14 rifles equipped with the AWC/M84 optic system to Vietnam in March 1967, and an additional 425 loose mounts and 356 M84 scopes were also subsequently sent. So reportedly 550 of the AWC scope mounts were shipped to Vietnam. Rifles equipped with this optical system are sometimes called ‘pre-XM21’ sniper rifles. They were used concurrently with the arrival of the AR TEL 3-9x scopes on XM21 rifles that were first fielded in late 1968, and subsequently standardized in Sept 1969.

I'd love to see as many pics of some of those one-offs and ah-hoc setups as possible, since I've been wanting to scope my M14 for a long time now and don't really want to use the ART setup, as neat as it may be. Makes me wonder if anyone devised a mount similar to the Bassett Machine one I've been thinking about using. I need inspiration!

 

[Random Guy]

I have studied vintage military M14 optic systems somewhat extensively, and to the best of my knowledge, the only pictures of an ad-hoc scope set up in Vietnam are Sgt Greene’s rifle. The best book on this subject is Peter Senich’s ‘The Long Range War.’ (S. Blake’s book, ‘US Rifle M14: From John Garands M1 to the M21’ is also a good reference, but was printed back in 1982 and is hard to find, and pricey).

If you want something historically accurate you should look for an AWC mount. (There are both original and reproductions of this mount floating around). They were used from the spring of 1967 until at least 1971, per various references. (I read one online post that suggested the AWC Mount, a US Army item, was copied on Okinawa at the request of USMC personnel, and some were sent to Vietnam for ad hoc use - but I have never seen any other reference to that anecdotal...so I don’t know if its true or not. It is a pretty simple mount).

The only other option evaluated by the US Army (at Fort Benning) was the Pachmyar “Lo-Swing” Mount in 1958-59, and a similar AWC prototype mount circa mid-1960s that had hinges and allowed the scope to rotate to the left, so rifle could be loaded via the clip guide, but the mount was flimsey and required 4 holes to be drilled and threaded on left side of the receiver. That’s about it.

To the best of my knowledge, nothing like the Basset Mount was fielded in Vietnam. However there were various prototypes of the AR TEL Mount before they settled on the final design. If you want a retro look, buy a Kollmorgen 4x Bear Cub scope (with dark gray finish) and use your Basset Mount. At least the Kollmorgen was evaluated in the late 1950s at Fort Benning for use on a scoped M14.

 

[Son of Dorn]

I have studied M14 optic systems somewhat extensively, and to the best of my knowledge, the only pictures of an ad-hoc scope set up in Vietnam are Sgt Greene’s rifle. The best book on this subject is Peter Senich’s ‘The Long Range War.’ If you want something historically accurate you should look for an AWC Mount. They were used from the spring of 1967 until at least 1971, per the various reference booos.

The only other option evaluated by the military was the Pachmyar “Lo-Swing” Mount and a similar AWC prototype mount that had hinges and allowed the scope to rotate so rifle could be loaded via the clip guide, but the mount was flimsey and required 4 holes to be drilled and threaded on left side of the receiver. To the best of my knowledge, nothing like the Basset Mount was fielded in Vietnam. However there were various prototypes of the AR TEL Mount before they settled on the final design.

Is that your M14 Forum post I linked earlier in the thread? 'Cause if so, it's funny you mentioned putting the scope setup on an E2-stocked rifle; that's how I built my M14 to begin with. I do really like that AWC mount and it's certainly a period-correct idea should I go through with scoping the rifle. A few downsides, to be sure, but I bet there are ways to work around them. With enough patience, I imagine putting together something like a hybrid of Sgt Greene's mount/scope and an AWC mount would be doable, and not unrealistic either.

 

[Strykervet]

Looks like there is clearance to run the rear sight and not interfere with the scope. It is odd they didnt leave it in place as a BUIS.

Whats interesting is that before the M40 came along and the USMC was messing with different rifles there is talk of a scope bought at the PX in Okinawa. Its only identification is that it was marked "MARINE" and no one has identified one or found a picture.

Wonder if this could be it.

A member mentioned it on here, I forget who, but he was a Vietnam vet and said they sold commercial scopes in the PX and that they'd buy those, but in order to be placed on a rack weapon they had to be marked "USMC" or some such and they had an engraver do that. I forget what he said about mounting 'em but he went into some detail in what they used, how they did it. I wanna say there were two different scopes that were popular. But he said most of that stuff came off the shelf at the PX.

BUIS... I doubt you could unmount one of those fast enough to make use of it. No QD levers, no oversize knobs.

 

[pmclaine]

A member mentioned it on here, I forget who, but he was a Vietnam vet and said they sold commercial scopes in the PX and that they'd buy those, but in order to be placed on a rack weapon they had to be marked "USMC" or some such and they had an engraver do that. I forget what he said about mounting 'em but he went into some detail in what they used, how they did it. I wanna say there were two different scopes that were popular. But he said most of that stuff came off the shelf at the PX.

BUIS... I doubt you could unmount one of those fast enough to make use of it. No QD levers, no oversize knobs.

Now a days we either stick a gold/silver foil USMC seal on it or draw a big dick on it and claim it "Property USMC".

Engraving takes too long.

Edited......

 

[Random Guy]

I think we should keep this thread more PG-rated and maybe delete the above picture...just my 2cts.

it's funny you mentioned putting the scope setup on an E2-stocked rifle; that's how I built my M14 to begin with. I do really like that AWC mount and it's certainly a period-correct idea should I go through with scoping the rifle.

M14 in West Point collection with M14E2 stock, used circa 1970-71 in Vietnam.

 

[Son of Dorn]

M14 in West Point collection with M14E2 stock, used circa 1970-71 in Vietnam.

View attachment 7153010

Not bad. Not bad at all.

 

[Blitzy]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing. The doom mongering about M14 accuracy (or lack thereof) is what stops me investing in one. Nice to see them in use.

 

[cplnorton]

Any use of the M14 or M16 as a sniper by the Marines in Vietnam really seems to be a one off by the docs.

The only thing I see official in the Marine Docs were the Model 70's, M1D's, and the M40.

Now for the Army, they were focused on the M14 mostly from the Start. They had a few Model 70's they purchased and did have quite a few M16's with M84's. Which I don't think the M16's have been discussed in books yet. Then the rest was the M14 with the m84 or M21.

 

[Son of Dorn]

@cplnorton M16s with M84s? Didn't know about that. Aside from mounting the big NV scopes and the smaller Colt ones, the only M16 sniper variants I know of are these two:

Colt Model 655:

Colt Model 656:

I'd love to have a 656 clone upper; I've seen one or two. Maybe NoDak Spud will add them to their lineup one day.

 

[cplnorton]

Yeah just like they had M84's on the M14's, they had some M84's on M16's. This is on top of the M16's with Colt Realist scope.

This was pre 1967 Vietnam. This is off the top of my head, but I do remember a count of a 100 M84 mounts for the M16 sent to Nam.