Rifle Scopes mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

[bcpdshooter]

looking at scope options...

I have decided that i want ffp and o-stop and mildot ret.
now i am looking at the elev. and wind. adjustments.

I am starting the road to mastering the sniper craft and want to start with right tools to learn on.

What adjustment is optimal for the sniper field craft?

 

[KeithR41]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Oh boy, you done it now!

Good luck Grasshopper.

41

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Lots of info along this line using the 'search' function.

That said, I'm not sure there is an 'optimal'. As long as your reticle matches your adjustments you're way ahead of the game. And in this day and age, there isnt ant reason for them NOT to match. Lots of scope options to choose from that will fit the bill.

However most arent cheap since a lot of the mfg'ers still use MOA turrets and dont offer an MOA reticle to match, so you end up with a mildot reticle and MOA adjustments, which is not the way to go.

If you're dead set on the mildot reticle, start looking for a mfg'er that offers mil windage and elevation.

 

[harley_jeff]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

I'm getting my popcorn...

 

[banshee sws]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

yeah, use the search , lots to learn for sure

but quick answer is using a scope where your reticle matches your turret adjustments is best

no math involved to convert what you mil'd with your reticle

but moa/moa would achieve the same thing

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=770411#Post770411

 

[Lefty06]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

I'm still using mill / moa but when I upgrade Scopes ill go with a mill/mill scope because of ease and less math.

 

[YN*Dotte]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Sniper craft?? Hows about a little fire Scarecrow,... lol To answer your question, the adjustments will always be the same, it's wheather or not they match the reticle is what you should be concerned with, in any case go Mil/Mil and be happy.

 

[jtb33]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quickdraw40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=770411#Post770411 </div></div>

Careful if you comment in that thread, lest you feel the wrath of Quickdraw40. I got the beat-down from him in it.

Seriously, LOTS of great info in the above thread. Do yourself a favor and take the time to read ALL OF IT. It certainly motivated me to move to all Mil/Mil optics. Already sold my USO's and NF that were in MOA.

 

[Chiller]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcpdshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looking at scope options...

I have decided that i want ffp and o-stop and mildot ret.
now i am looking at the elev. and wind. adjustments.

I am starting the road to mastering the sniper craft and want to start with right tools to learn on.

What adjustment is optimal for the sniper field craft? </div></div>

 

[Chiller]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Why oooo why did you have to say "sniper field craft" and "sniper craft"

If you are LEO as you state then you should understand this.

 

[Chiller]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

reticle to match the knobs.....

mil/mil....moa/moa

you need to sort that out.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

if you want to be a master sniper, your adjustments and reticle must match .

a know lots of guys use mils, so lots of my customers do that to have a common system to match if someones spotting for you. i try to use both personally so i can discuss either if need be. a lot of guys who hunt and just plink around use moa, it tends to be easier for a lot of american shooters to think in inches and quarter inches.

it boils down to what your comfortable with really, hope this helps, call me if i can be of any assistance

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

To me the only time mil/mil or moa/moa really saves you anytime is when zeroing the scope.

I was taught to hold for adjustments and not dial in for wind and such. Given that mind set I don't need to, or have occasion to, change dope rapidly. I dial for the distance, make the shot, see where it went and then hold for correction.

I have a mil/moa scope and thought I would have all kinds of issues with the conversions. Yet to be honest it works just fine and don't feel I really give up anything with them not being the same once it was zeroed.

 

[Chiller]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me the only time mil/mil or moa/moa really saves you anytime is when zeroing the scope.

I was taught to hold for adjustments and not dial in for wind and such. Given that mind set I don't need to, or have occasion to, change dope rapidly. I dial for the distance, make the shot, see where it went and then hold for correction.

I have a mil/moa scope and thought I would have all kinds of issues with the conversions. Yet to be honest it works just fine and don't feel I really give up anything with them not being the same once it was zeroed. </div></div>

unless you are shooting UKD....or with a spotter.....or at a different magnification......or........ (perhaps it does matter)....

I know.....call me silly.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

My reticle is in mils. As such I didn't have any real issues doing UKD drills with it, same procedure as people who had mil/mil scopes. As for a spotter they would call out corrections in mils so I would just hold for the correction. Overall it worked out really well.

As for magnification I am not sure I understand the underlying implication you are attempting to make.

Again it may not be for everyone but I don't think it is as big an inconvenience as I have heard people here make it out to be.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My reticle is in mils. As such I didn't have any real issues doing UKD drills with it, same procedure as people who had mil/mil scopes. As for a spotter they would call out corrections in mils so I would just hold for the correction. Overall it worked out really well.

As for magnification I am not sure I understand the underlying implication you are attempting to make.

Again it may not be for everyone but I don't think it is as big an inconvenience as I have heard people here make it out to be. </div></div>

IMHO you are wrong. I had mil/moa too and when presented with 3 ukd targets of various sizes at various distances and a short time frame to engage them i really struggled. No problem if i have a few mins a shot and if i'm lucky enough to be given a couple of shots to get on target but 1 shot per target under time pressure and you will see the benefit of a mil/mil or moa/moa approach. If you aren't convinced, pop down to RO given you aren't too far away and see if you feel the same way after.

I would be curious to hear how many shooters rank in to the Top 20 at the leading competitions who use a mil/moa approach.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

I am in no danger of being in the top 20 of any shooting competition nor do I aspire to be.

I was at Rifles Only just two weeks ago. I went through their PR1&2 course and didn't have any issues with the math on any of the challenges as it related to my scope. That is why I can say with confidence having a mil/moa scope isn't that hard for ME to use.

My opinions of how I found using a mil/moa can't actually be wrong as they are just my personal opinions based upon my usage. They can however not be aligned with the opinions of others based on their experiences.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you aren't convinced, pop down to RO given you aren't too far away and see if you feel the same way after. </div></div>

We actually give the users of Mil/MOA the tools to work effectively with it as a major cross section of the students at RO are still using it. So giving the proper tools to quickly and effectively use mils with moa turrets is explained.

it is a personal choice for sure, and while many find it much easier to use matching adjustments it can be done without, somewhat as easily if you plan it out ahead of time.

Granted, given the level of most people's knowledge on the subject, if you let them fly blind or go with traditional understanding of the two, most will fall flat.

 

[Tactical]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Depends on what you learned on:
I tell guys just starting its easier to learn MIL/MIL, as its all base ten which is easier than MOA

Me I have used Mil/MOA so long I get screwed up when I try MIL/MIL, because of old habits and techniques.

Just starting out I say go Mil/Mil for ease of learning. You have enough crap to remember without doing division in your head for Mil/MOA conversions.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

TJ-
I am with you on one shot per varying sized UNK being tough.

I dont see the problem as MOA knobs but getting a good Mil read to start with, followed by the 'spread' I can shoot and still hit. (Wind may have a bit to do with this as well

)

For me it takes alot of training to get smooth with the proccess of quick UNK drills. Your post about needing more time suggests more practise rather than matching knobs and reticle would have helped.

Perhaps you could practise on unknowns with at least 3 shots per target to see how well you mil and how well you adjust.

Good Luck

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I am in no danger of being in the top 20 of any shooting competition nor do I aspire to be.

I was at Rifles Only just two weeks ago. I went through their PR1&2 course and didn't have any issues with the math on any of the challenges as it related to my scope. That is why I can say with confidence having a mil/moa scope isn't that hard for ME to use.

My opinions of how I found using a mil/moa can't actually be wrong as they are just my personal opinions based upon my usage. They can however not be aligned with the opinions of others based on their experiences.
</div></div>

You are nearer to the Top 20 than me

I'll hold my hands up, you've been there, experienced it and stand by your view which I respect and admire. I couldn't make it work but you have so fair play to you. Thx

 

[Chiller]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My reticle is in mils. As such I didn't have any real issues doing UKD drills with it, same procedure as people who had mil/mil scopes. As for a spotter they would call out corrections in mils so I would just hold for the correction. Overall it worked out really well.

As for magnification I am not sure I understand the underlying implication you are attempting to make.

Again it may not be for everyone but I don't think it is as big an inconvenience as I have heard people here make it out to be. </div></div>

The implication would be a FFP vs. SFP discussion. In a SFP scope (where you find the majority of the mil/moa turrets) your reticle is "useful" (unless you have done the math) at one magnification level. In a FFP scope with matched reticle and knobs you dial what you see or what you are told at any magnification.

I do understand that there are people who can do the math, have done the work, and can think on their feet. All that being said and acknowledged the KISS principle comes to play.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Chiller-
I have found it most difficult to use Mildot at low magnification and most SFP scopes use a 10 to 14X setting for milreads. The very powerful scopes are best not used for moving target type engagements.

Three of my scopes are loopy FFP mildot reticle and MOA knob.

My F-TR is also a loopy with SFP, 6.5-20X with Mildot and MOA knobs.

There are many scopes out there with SFP mildot, they quite often are cheaper but I wouldnt recommend them for serious Tacticool comps or tactical work.

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

OP,
I learned on mil/moa scopes, and I was eager to get away from them as soon as I could. Once I started using mil/mil things got so much easier. Here's how it helps me. When shooting for data, I get as precise as I possibly can by dialing in my adjustments for both elevation and wind and shooting until I am satisfied that those numbers are exact. Just like we all do. However, with a mil adjusted scope I have just recorded all my data for dialing AND holdoffs at the same time. Now I can use the same set of numbers if I choose to dial in my adjustments or holdoff in the future. It just simplifies the process, and lines you up with corrections being called in mils as well. I was shooting on Saturday and the guy next to me spotted my shot with his rifle scope, he asked me if I was shotting mil/mil and when I said yes he gave me a correction in mils and I shot the target. Too easy,
Jason

 

[Lowlight]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

Seeing the reticle on lower power depends on a lot of things,

1. Just how low is practical

2. Reticle design -

Most reticles are more than visible at 6X which, how low do you want to go. Shooting Movers at a 100 yards are the toughest to shoot and still i don't go below 8x for that and even so, you are usually holding just in front of the target anyways.

8x is about as low as a tactical scope need go and still need/use the reticle effectively, anything lower you are probably close enough to not sweat it.

I shoot Chaos at RO around 12X with no problem the mover is 400 yards away, and it gives me plenty of FOV to engage it and the other targets. At night is really the only time I might dial below to 8X using a UNS.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I shoot Chaos at RO around 12X with no problem the mover is 400 yards away, and it gives me plenty of FOV to engage it and the other targets.</div></div>

For those that don't know "Choas" is a drill they do at Rifles Only. In it you engage 5 targets at various distances for time, you get two shots per target, and you dial your dope for 400 yards. The 1st target is at 400 yards, it is a mover going from right to left. The 2nd target is at 200 yards, so you have to hold under for that shot. The 3rd target is at 300 yards, again you hold under. The 4th target is at 525 I believe, it may be 560 I don't honestly recall that one, this time you have to hold over. The 5th and final target is the mover at 400 yards this time going from left to right. It is a fun drill to say the least. It definitely drives home the concept of how to hold off on targets are various distances without touching your elevation.

Sorry for the thread hijacking..we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread....

 

[bcpdshooter]

Re: mil/mil adj vs mil/moa adj

My original thread was rushed before i went to work and looking at it now i see the phrase (sniper field craft) was out of text.
I have always just estimated the bullet drop etc. out out to four hundred yards or so and said (good enough). I have never had any formal training on this subject. Now i am forgetting everything i have taught myself and starting over. so in a sense i want to build a new house new foundation. I will spend what ever money i need to spend to have the right equipment figured that was where to start.

For those who gave a positive response i thank you.

For those whom i insulted i apologize.

No need to reply