Just for shits and grins, has anyone ever heard of the moon having a <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> measurable <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> effect on external ballistics in relation to it's position in orbit? A guy was fucking with me the other day and this was one of the freak questions he asked me. We all know that gravity is the only constant in external ballistics. I've never heard of the moon creating a measurable effect, although low/high tide is well known. I told him that theoretically the moon has a minimal effect, but not enough to measure or apply on the range. Agree/disagree?
Range Report Moon effecting external ballistics
- Thread starter CPEC0402
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- ballistics effecting external moon
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Don't forget the Coriolis Effect.
Don't forget the Coriolis Effect.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
You are right - he was fucking with you. Sunspots, though...
You are right - he was fucking with you. Sunspots, though...
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Tidal forces affect everything on the planet. But bullets? Measureably? I think you'd need a pretty precise set of measurement gear to even identify any difference at all.
Tidal forces affect everything on the planet. But bullets? Measureably? I think you'd need a pretty precise set of measurement gear to even identify any difference at all.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Yessir, absolutely...; just a light trim around the ankles and wrists, please...
Ahwoooooo!!!!!!
Yessir, absolutely...; just a light trim around the ankles and wrists, please...
Ahwoooooo!!!!!!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
It's called Lunar Drift and there is a video roaming around of me explaining it in great detail... that and the aurora coriolis is very real.
It's called Lunar Drift and there is a video roaming around of me explaining it in great detail... that and the aurora coriolis is very real.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
I'll just add the moon to my litany of excuses heard on why people cannot shoot a small group.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CPEC0402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...gravity is the only constant in external ballistics...</div></div>
Not precisely true. The gravitational pull at sea level is greater than the pull at 10,000 feet.........
I'll just add the moon to my litany of excuses heard on why people cannot shoot a small group.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CPEC0402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...gravity is the only constant in external ballistics...</div></div>
Not precisely true. The gravitational pull at sea level is greater than the pull at 10,000 feet.........
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Interesting. But it appears from everybody's posts that everything is technical in theory, yet in practice not practical due to not having a measurable effect. For instance, one could then argue that technically the sun applies gravitational forces as well, etc. etc...
Interesting. But it appears from everybody's posts that everything is technical in theory, yet in practice not practical due to not having a measurable effect. For instance, one could then argue that technically the sun applies gravitational forces as well, etc. etc...
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Someone call mythbusters...Actually if I see them screw up one more gun myth...
It sounds like he was just messing with you to me.
Someone call mythbusters...Actually if I see them screw up one more gun myth...
It sounds like he was just messing with you to me.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Man I need to figure out how to get that video on here.
for those in the know
((((your gonna love my nuts)))))
Man I need to figure out how to get that video on here.
for those in the know
((((your gonna love my nuts)))))
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
no
no
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no</div></div>
But what about that butterfly flapping its wings in Tokyo, Bryan?
It's all about chaos theory!!!!
Seriously, Bryan in right. Gravity is one of the weaker fundamental forces, and has its effects on huge masses in the solar system (like oceans), and in part over long spans of time sufficient to overcome inertia of anything moving.
A. The sun's gravity has a larger microscopically measurable effect.
B. All such effects on a fast-moving bullet are massively overpowered by other effects hugely closer to the bullet and causing dispersion, such as random air movements.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no</div></div>
But what about that butterfly flapping its wings in Tokyo, Bryan?
It's all about chaos theory!!!!
Seriously, Bryan in right. Gravity is one of the weaker fundamental forces, and has its effects on huge masses in the solar system (like oceans), and in part over long spans of time sufficient to overcome inertia of anything moving.
A. The sun's gravity has a larger microscopically measurable effect.
B. All such effects on a fast-moving bullet are massively overpowered by other effects hugely closer to the bullet and causing dispersion, such as random air movements.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
BTW, Bryan--
Are there any observed experiments of small arms projectile dispersion in vacuum or near-vacuum as compared to the most "reliable" test setup, a tunnel with still air and enough room around the bullet path to avoid funniness???
Thanks!!
BTW, Bryan--
Are there any observed experiments of small arms projectile dispersion in vacuum or near-vacuum as compared to the most "reliable" test setup, a tunnel with still air and enough room around the bullet path to avoid funniness???
Thanks!!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Grump - you may have seen this, but others probably have not:
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
As an engineer, a finikin, and a shooter, these guys are my heroes.
Grump - you may have seen this, but others probably have not:
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
As an engineer, a finikin, and a shooter, these guys are my heroes.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grump - you may have seen this, but others probably have not:
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
As an engineer, a finikin, and a shooter, these guys are my heroes.
</div></div>
Oh yeah, that was one of the most delightful reads about what Bill Alexander calls "chasing the accuracy demon" I've ever enjoyed!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grump - you may have seen this, but others probably have not:
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
As an engineer, a finikin, and a shooter, these guys are my heroes.
</div></div>
Oh yeah, that was one of the most delightful reads about what Bill Alexander calls "chasing the accuracy demon" I've ever enjoyed!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
As I understand lunar magnetic draw, and at least it's effects on the tide and oceanic current, IF, a shooter had a steel ball in his butt (carbon in steel, not non-carbon), there might be a tendancy to lift the shooter off of the ground a bit...
Now, this might have two effects.
FIRST, discomfort. Clearly, some shooters might have a problem with ring rentention energetic control. In other words, the ball might ball out... no big deal to some, big deal to others.
SECOND, if you get lifted high enough from the stock, your scope might "cat eye" out, the same effect that happens when L&S Mark IV M-1s are up around 140 MOA or more. That sucks.
THIRD, the higher you are pulled, clearly the less ass is behind the mass of the gun, recoil stuff gets wierd, BP goes up, HR goes up, sweating, things that resemble an MI start to occur...
Question is, what happens when the moon goes behind a cloud??
Dammit, another ponderable!!!
With a grin,
Trigger
As I understand lunar magnetic draw, and at least it's effects on the tide and oceanic current, IF, a shooter had a steel ball in his butt (carbon in steel, not non-carbon), there might be a tendancy to lift the shooter off of the ground a bit...
Now, this might have two effects.
FIRST, discomfort. Clearly, some shooters might have a problem with ring rentention energetic control. In other words, the ball might ball out... no big deal to some, big deal to others.
SECOND, if you get lifted high enough from the stock, your scope might "cat eye" out, the same effect that happens when L&S Mark IV M-1s are up around 140 MOA or more. That sucks.
THIRD, the higher you are pulled, clearly the less ass is behind the mass of the gun, recoil stuff gets wierd, BP goes up, HR goes up, sweating, things that resemble an MI start to occur...
Question is, what happens when the moon goes behind a cloud??
Dammit, another ponderable!!!
With a grin,
Trigger
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grump - you may have seen this, but others probably have not:
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
As an engineer, a finikin, and a shooter, these guys are my heroes.
</div></div>
Thats one of the best reads on the WWW if accuracy is your thing
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grump - you may have seen this, but others probably have not:
Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
As an engineer, a finikin, and a shooter, these guys are my heroes.
</div></div>
Thats one of the best reads on the WWW if accuracy is your thing
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question is, what happens when the moon goes behind a cloud??
Dammit, another ponderable!!!
With a grin,
Trigger</div></div>
....answer....you bark at the moon !
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question is, what happens when the moon goes behind a cloud??
Dammit, another ponderable!!!
With a grin,
Trigger</div></div>
....answer....you bark at the moon !
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question is, what happens when the moon goes behind a cloud??
Dammit, another ponderable!!!
With a grin,
Trigger</div></div>
....answer....you bark at the moon ! </div></div>
Do you have to have blood dripping from your mouth to count as an effective bark?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question is, what happens when the moon goes behind a cloud??
Dammit, another ponderable!!!
With a grin,
Trigger</div></div>
....answer....you bark at the moon ! </div></div>
Do you have to have blood dripping from your mouth to count as an effective bark?
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
All of you are nuts.
This conversation is not happening. It is all in your minds.
You are all dead, having been killt in the mass cataclysms of the last planetary conjunction, six of them lining up with the moon, on May 5, 2000. http://www.baproducts.com/552000.htm
This is all a hallucination.
All of you are nuts.
This conversation is not happening. It is all in your minds.
You are all dead, having been killt in the mass cataclysms of the last planetary conjunction, six of them lining up with the moon, on May 5, 2000. http://www.baproducts.com/552000.htm
This is all a hallucination.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
There is absolutely less drop on a full moon. Don't let these guys trick you into beleiving this isn't the case. Also there in a disproportionate decrease in drop during a waxing gibbous vs a waning gibbous.
Just kidding.
There is absolutely less drop on a full moon. Don't let these guys trick you into beleiving this isn't the case. Also there in a disproportionate decrease in drop during a waxing gibbous vs a waning gibbous.
Just kidding.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Grump has it right. Gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces by a huge magnitude. Consider the fact that you can lift a paper clip with a refrigerator magnet, defeating the gravity caused by the mass of the entire Earth pulling on it.
The Moon has enough mass to cause tidal shifting, but its affect on a bullet are going to be insignificant.
Grump has it right. Gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces by a huge magnitude. Consider the fact that you can lift a paper clip with a refrigerator magnet, defeating the gravity caused by the mass of the entire Earth pulling on it.
The Moon has enough mass to cause tidal shifting, but its affect on a bullet are going to be insignificant.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
The moon's got pull, that is all I'm sayin, ignore it at your peril, Penelope.
The moon's got pull, that is all I'm sayin, ignore it at your peril, Penelope.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Pull your heads out of your asses, the gravity of the Moon can and does affect the tides in the worlds oceans, so if the moon can lift the Pacific, it will affect the flight of a bullet, and coming soon to a sporting goods store near you Bynum Self Cleaning Bullets.
Pull your heads out of your asses, the gravity of the Moon can and does affect the tides in the worlds oceans, so if the moon can lift the Pacific, it will affect the flight of a bullet, and coming soon to a sporting goods store near you Bynum Self Cleaning Bullets.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
It's not quite that simple, Cobra. Sure it can tug on the oceans, but using that as the key logic then you would think why not tug on us as well? The Moon affects all matter on Earth, but fluid masses will be able to deform differently than solid objects, so the MAGNITUDE of the force is so perceptively small on a bullet that it really doesn't make a noticeable difference.
Physics: it works, bitches!
It's not quite that simple, Cobra. Sure it can tug on the oceans, but using that as the key logic then you would think why not tug on us as well? The Moon affects all matter on Earth, but fluid masses will be able to deform differently than solid objects, so the MAGNITUDE of the force is so perceptively small on a bullet that it really doesn't make a noticeable difference.
Physics: it works, bitches!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Just read that article.
Any idea on what Virgil was talking about with 'arc'ing?
Just read that article.
Any idea on what Virgil was talking about with 'arc'ing?
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
The force of the moon's gravity on an object at the surface of the earth is 3 millionths the force of the earth's gravity on that object. The force exerted by the moon's gravity on a 175 grain bullet is 75 billionths of a pound. Not to worry.
The force of the moon's gravity on an object at the surface of the earth is 3 millionths the force of the earth's gravity on that object. The force exerted by the moon's gravity on a 175 grain bullet is 75 billionths of a pound. Not to worry.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not quite that simple, Cobra. Sure it can tug on the oceans, but using that as the key logic then you would think why not tug on us as well? The Moon affects all matter on Earth, but fluid masses will be able to deform differently than solid objects, so the MAGNITUDE of the force is so perceptively small on a bullet that it really doesn't make a noticeable difference.
Physics: it works, bitches! </div></div>
That was Satire Sir
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not quite that simple, Cobra. Sure it can tug on the oceans, but using that as the key logic then you would think why not tug on us as well? The Moon affects all matter on Earth, but fluid masses will be able to deform differently than solid objects, so the MAGNITUDE of the force is so perceptively small on a bullet that it really doesn't make a noticeable difference.
Physics: it works, bitches! </div></div>
That was Satire Sir
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
the speed of rotation of the moon and earth are equal, that is why we only see the one side of the moon. because soil is more dense than water, water is more drawn and noticable to the gravitational pull of the moon.
since lead and copper are not magnetic and are much more dense than water and soil, multiplied by newton's law's of gravity and motion, the lunar effect has no measurable effect on trajectory/point of impact of a projectile.
excerpt taken from mr. spock's discertation on "ballistics on known missles within the orbit of a dual mooned planet"
what?
the speed of rotation of the moon and earth are equal, that is why we only see the one side of the moon. because soil is more dense than water, water is more drawn and noticable to the gravitational pull of the moon.
since lead and copper are not magnetic and are much more dense than water and soil, multiplied by newton's law's of gravity and motion, the lunar effect has no measurable effect on trajectory/point of impact of a projectile.
excerpt taken from mr. spock's discertation on "ballistics on known missles within the orbit of a dual mooned planet"
what?
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Anyone who actually answered this in a serious manner --- smokes crack.
Just sayin
Anyone who actually answered this in a serious manner --- smokes crack.
Just sayin
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
BUTT, what about the gravitational effect of CKA's Moon?
:>)
BUTT, what about the gravitational effect of CKA's Moon?
:>)
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
i seem to have dropped my pipe ☺
i seem to have dropped my pipe ☺
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Listen to Jared...."SHUT UP AND SHOOT"
Listen to Jared...."SHUT UP AND SHOOT"
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Speaking of crack, this thread is cracking me up. The Moon affecting the external ballistics of a bullet
I guess during daylight hours it's OK, it only affects it at night like a werewolf.
Speaking of crack, this thread is cracking me up. The Moon affecting the external ballistics of a bullet
I guess during daylight hours it's OK, it only affects it at night like a werewolf.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i seem to have dropped my pipe ☺ </div></div>
AKA "Straight Shooter"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i seem to have dropped my pipe ☺ </div></div>
AKA "Straight Shooter"
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away............
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away............
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Given the following:
Gravitational force
Fg=(G)((M)(m)/(R^2))
Gravitational constant G=6.67*10^-11 M^3/Kg*s^2
Mass of the moon M=7.63*10^11 Kg
Mass of 175gr bullet m=.011 Kg
Distance to the moon in its elliptical orbit R= 363,104 km to 405,696 km
The force exerted on the round by the moon depending on its location is:
.338N and .377N
So the difference of force on the round is .039N
Which translates to approximately 3% of the bullets weight.
Big deal huh?
Given the following:
Gravitational force
Fg=(G)((M)(m)/(R^2))
Gravitational constant G=6.67*10^-11 M^3/Kg*s^2
Mass of the moon M=7.63*10^11 Kg
Mass of 175gr bullet m=.011 Kg
Distance to the moon in its elliptical orbit R= 363,104 km to 405,696 km
The force exerted on the round by the moon depending on its location is:
.338N and .377N
So the difference of force on the round is .039N
Which translates to approximately 3% of the bullets weight.
Big deal huh?
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scuzy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the following:
Gravitational force
Fg=(G)((M)(m)/(R^2))
Gravitational constant G=6.67*10^-11 M^3/Kg*s^2
Mass of the moon M=7.63*10^11 Kg
Mass of 175gr bullet m=.011 Kg
Distance to the moon in its elliptical orbit R= 363,104 km to 405,696 km
The force exerted on the round by the moon depending on its location is:
.338N and .377N
So the difference of force on the round is .039N
Which translates to approximately 3% of the bullets weight.
Big deal huh?
</div></div>
Mass of the moon is 7.63*10^22 kg. Using the formula I get about 4x10^-8N force on the bullet. Much less than 3% of the weight. I think you forgot to convert km to meters, which after squaring is a factor of 1 million.
Yes I know the original post is not serious. Sorry to revive it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scuzy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the following:
Gravitational force
Fg=(G)((M)(m)/(R^2))
Gravitational constant G=6.67*10^-11 M^3/Kg*s^2
Mass of the moon M=7.63*10^11 Kg
Mass of 175gr bullet m=.011 Kg
Distance to the moon in its elliptical orbit R= 363,104 km to 405,696 km
The force exerted on the round by the moon depending on its location is:
.338N and .377N
So the difference of force on the round is .039N
Which translates to approximately 3% of the bullets weight.
Big deal huh?
</div></div>
Mass of the moon is 7.63*10^22 kg. Using the formula I get about 4x10^-8N force on the bullet. Much less than 3% of the weight. I think you forgot to convert km to meters, which after squaring is a factor of 1 million.
Yes I know the original post is not serious. Sorry to revive it.
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
.....i miss NOBODY................
.....i miss NOBODY................
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....i miss NOBODY................ </div></div>
Speaking of him, whatever happened to him?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....i miss NOBODY................ </div></div>
Speaking of him, whatever happened to him?
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Of course the Moon's tidal effect with affect the flight of the bullet - any mass overhead will pull the bullet off course. That's why we always close our firing ranges anytime we have helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft along the gun-target line - we don't want that smaller, yet much closer and therefore more significant, mass to pull us off trajectory and cause us to shoot long.
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I SERIOUSLY hope no one bought into THAT line of bullshit!
Of course the Moon's tidal effect with affect the flight of the bullet - any mass overhead will pull the bullet off course. That's why we always close our firing ranges anytime we have helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft along the gun-target line - we don't want that smaller, yet much closer and therefore more significant, mass to pull us off trajectory and cause us to shoot long.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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I SERIOUSLY hope no one bought into THAT line of bullshit!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
A full moon does affect the masses, if on a Friday or Saturday night on welfare weekend. Thats a fact.
Mike
A full moon does affect the masses, if on a Friday or Saturday night on welfare weekend. Thats a fact.
Mike
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Moon is amazing. Not only can he build a world class rifle, but he can bend the path of a bullet by harnessing the moons magnetic fields. I seen it!
Moon is amazing. Not only can he build a world class rifle, but he can bend the path of a bullet by harnessing the moons magnetic fields. I seen it!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Uranus has more of an effect!!
Uranus has more of an effect!!
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Can YOU shoot good enough that it matters....
Can YOU shoot good enough that it matters....
Re: Moon effecting external ballistics
Nobody misses you Scott ;-)
What I find mildly interesting is that several times in this thread the assertion has been made that "gravity" has little or no effect on a projectile. And it is a known fact that if Uranus is behind the bullet/gun there is much less effect on YOUR trajectory than if Uranus is in front of the bullet/gun.
Nobody misses you Scott ;-)
What I find mildly interesting is that several times in this thread the assertion has been made that "gravity" has little or no effect on a projectile. And it is a known fact that if Uranus is behind the bullet/gun there is much less effect on YOUR trajectory than if Uranus is in front of the bullet/gun.
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