More new loader questions

[DirtyRod]

Taking the jump from loading .45 to .308. I'm all setup and I've mocked up a few without primers and powder to ensure that they chamber I've been reading and looking at videos for several months and can't seem to understand two concepts and would appreciate an education.

I've read a number of threads on "bumping the shoulder" back but I don't understand why or when it's necessary. Is this is handled by a FL sizing die and only necessary when doing neck sizing only? Is it just running them back through a FL die periodically?

Second question is about weighing brass. I get weighing bullets and being precise with powder so that the rounds are consistent. I don't understand how a couple grams between cases with the same headstamp will affect accuracy. How important is this step?

If it matters, I'm planning on using 175SMKs, CCI, Varget, and once fired BH Match brass out of a Remmy 700.

Appreciate the education.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: More new loader questions

your right , people bump the shoulder when neck sizing and it's not something you have to do if your f/l sizing. The shoulders move foward after awhile, it becomes difficult to chamber a round that has been necked sized a few times , so you bump the shoulder back , or f/l size them every few firings.

i would believe by weighing brass people are looking for differeces in internal case capacity. Variations in CC effect accuracy. I dont think i'd worry about it unless you really believe that is what's holding you back from shooting better.

 

[DirtyRod]

Re: More new loader questions

It definitely isn't the ammo that's to blame.

I'll plan on FL sizing every 2-3 firings then. I suppose like everything else FL vs Neck sizing is a personal thing so I was planning to size them both ways once I got my load down to see if it makes any difference out of my gun.

Thanx for the info.

 

[jkonzal]

Re: More new loader questions

Take some time and read the Hand Loading For Long Range entries on this forum. I have learned a ton from Doc!!! The first one addresses your question here, but I would read all of them.

 

[doc76251]

Re: More new loader questions

The short version to you questions are

1. You set the shoulder back via your resizing die to ensure that you have the minimum space between the cartridge and your chamber that still functions effectively. The tipping point is when you cant chamber the round any more.

2. A couple of GRAMS would be a huge amount of brass

a couple of GRAINS isn't worth worrying about IMHO.


Thanks for the props Flintlock

Cheers,

Doc

 

[TexIndian]

Re: More new loader questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirty Rod</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll plan on neck sizing every 2-3 firings then. </div></div>
Whether you size the rest of the case or not, you have to resize the necks after every firing. Otherwise, your neck will be too big to even hold the bullet.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Headspace:</span> When you fire a round in anything but a custom Benchrest rifle, the shoulder will stretch forward because the chamber is longer in the shoulder than the case. One thing a f-l die does is to move the shoulder back. If you screw the die into your press until it hits the shellholder like most instructions tell you, the die will move the shoulder back to the minimum specs. Many (maybe most) reloaders do it this way because they don't know any better. If you are going to fire the brass in a different gun, this is the safest way to go and that's why the instructions say what they do. But if you are going to fire your brass in the same gun, you don't need to do this and you are reducing the life of your brass by doing so.

I assume you're using a bolt gun. The process is a little different with a semi-auto. With a bolt gun, you really don't need to move the shoulder back at all until several firings. It takes several firings for the shoulder to stretch all the way out to fit the chamber and stay there. That's why lots of guys use a neck sizer when firing the same brass in the same bolt gun. But after a few firings, the case will get hard to chamber because it has grown as large as the chamber and there is no leeway left. That's when you use a f-l sizer, but even then you don't have to move the shoulder all the way back to minimum. You just push it back a few thousandths - enough so the case will chamber easily. Moving it all the way back to minimum just makes it stretch more and that's what wears it out. It's hard to tell what you're doing here if you don't have the right measuring tools. You can get by with what's called a case comparator that attaches to your calipers. Until you get the feel of what you're doing, it's okay to go ahead and do a full f-l resize. I reloaded for maybe 10 years using a f-l resize after every firing and I had brass that lasted 10+ firings, so it's not like all this fine-tuning is essential for a beginner.

Weighing cases (or bullets) is something you do as you get more advanced and start shooting at longer ranges. The theory is that a heavier case has less internal capacity, and thus will develop more pressure from a fixed powder charge than a lighter case. This will result in higher velocities which will affect the point of impact. As long as we're talking about cases from the same manufacturer, we're talking about tiny differences here that won't show up on your target until you get out several hundred yards, if at all.

The one thing to watch out for here are military cases like LC. They are substantially heavier (thicker) than commercial cases and thus have substantially less internal capacity. A powder charge that is near the max in a Win case might be way over the line in an LC case. Don't use load recipes interchangeably when mixing these cases.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: More new loader questions

Weighing your cases serves almost no purpose at all. Most people segregate them with extreme predjudice, that is useless. There have been plenty of folks that have roundly proven there is no correlation between case weight and internal volume but for some crazy reason people still perform these rituals. Just because you are shooting long range doesn' mean you need to sort brass, matter of fact doesn't mean you need to do anything besides trim and debur. I have been handloading for 30 years. I never seen a performance gain from weighing brass and sorting. As far as uniforming pockets and deburring flash holes, if you start with good brass you don't need to do that shit either. I have deburred a few flash holes in Winchester brass and never noticed anything gained. Use crappy brass for practice and buy the best for long range. You can't weigh crappy brass until it is all good, I don't care if you start with a case of the stuff.

Use a FL die. You don't need a neck die. If you use a neck die than you have to buy another die to bump the shoulder. If you use a FL die then you have no need to buy other dies. You can set up a FL die to size as much or as little as you like. Here is something I keep posting here for bullet seating depth and setting up a FL die:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullet seating depth:
You can make up dummy rounds. Take a fired round and resize the neck 3/4 way down with a FL sizing die. *Yes you can use a FL die in this manner.* Greg L has mentioned it a time or two in these pages. Seat a bullet a bit long in the case and smoke the bullet with a candle. Now slide the cartridge in the action and try to close the bolt, won't close so extract and notice the lovely rifle land marks in the smoke. Wipe the smoke off and seat a bit deeper. Smoke the bullet again and rinse and repeat until the bullet shows no rifling marks, you are now pretty close to jam length of THAT particular bullet if you switch bullets I would reccomend new dummy rounds and repeat this process. With a dummy round like this you can use it to set up your seating die.
Better: Take a dremel tool or small hacksaw and split a case new is ok but a fired case that has been neck sized almost fully to the shoulder will be better. Split to just past the neck shoulder junction. Insert bullet and insert round into chamber, close bolt and extract round carefully. Now measure length to lands with bullet comparator and calipers. You may need to use small vice grips (needle nose is good for stuff like 223) and lock on neck to hold bullet tight in case, then measure with comparator. You may need to do this a couple times to make sure the bullet isn't sticking in the lands and pulling out a bit as you extract. If you stick the bullet just knock it out carefully with a coated cleaning rod, I usually drop an 80gr 224 down the muzzle and it knocks a larger bullet right out. If you stick an 80gr 223 in the lands of course you will have to use the cleaning rod.
FL die setup using smoke:
Smoke the neck of the lubed case lightly on one side. Put your sizing die into the press and screw down to shellholder and back out a full turn. Now take the smoked LUBED (never forget the lube)case and run full into the die and back out. What do you see? How close are you to the shoulder? Using this method you can set up to lightly bump the shoulder or almost bump the shoulder and all points in between. There is nothing you can't do to a case with a FL die. If you set one up correctly it is all the resizing die you need to make brass last just as long as the primer pocket will hold a primer.
</div></div>

 

[DirtyRod]

Re: More new loader questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirty Rod</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll plan on neck sizing every 2-3 firings then. </div></div>
Whether you size the rest of the case or not, you have to resize the necks after every firing. Otherwise, your neck will be too big to even hold the bullet.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Headspace:</span> When you fire a round in anything but a custom Benchrest rifle, the shoulder will stretch forward because the chamber is longer in the shoulder than the case. One thing a f-l die does is to move the shoulder back. If you screw the die into your press until it hits the shellholder like most instructions tell you, the die will move the shoulder back to the minimum specs. Many (maybe most) reloaders do it this way because they don't know any better. If you are going to fire the brass in a different gun, this is the safest way to go and that's why the instructions say what they do. But if you are going to fire your brass in the same gun, you don't need to do this and you are reducing the life of your brass by doing so.
</div></div>

Oops - I meant FL size every 2-3. I planned on neck sizing each time as I see that the neck expands to .347 OD which doesn't hold the bullet. Yes, it's a bolt gun and it's only for brass out of the same rifle. My M1A and HK will get FL each time if I end up doing those.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You set the shoulder back via your resizing die to ensure that you have the minimum space between the cartridge and your chamber that still functions effectively. The tipping point is when you cant chamber the round any more.</div></div>

Got it. Thank you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Weighing your cases serves almost no purpose at all. Most people segregate them with extreme predjudice, that is useless. There have been plenty of folks that have roundly proven there is no correlation between case weight and internal volume but for some crazy reason people still perform these rituals.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Weighing cases (or bullets) is something you do as you get more advanced and start shooting at longer ranges. </div></div>

Thank you. My long range is generally 500-700 yards so I suppose it's not something I need to sorry about then.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use a FL die. You don't need a neck die. If you use a neck die than you have to buy another die to bump the shoulder. If you use a FL die then you have no need to buy other dies. You can set up a FL die to size as much or as little as you like. Here is something I keep posting here for bullet seating depth and setting up a FL die:</div></div>

I bought a Lee Deluxe kit so I have both and was planned on trying both to see if there was a difference in my 700. Thx for the tip on using the FL die to find the max. Everything I've mocked up chambers with little or no resistance including the fired brass so I was looking at a comparitor so I can find out how far I can go before needing to resize but that looks like a good option.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flintlock Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take some time and read the Hand Loading For Long Range entries on this forum. I have learned a ton from Doc!!! The first one addresses your question here, but I would read all of them. </div></div>

I'll take another read through them. I've probably read them all three times but must have missed that particular point. I'll re-read again. Learned a lot by reading Docs thread as well as the others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple of GRAMS would be a huge amount of brass

a couple of GRAINS isn't worth worrying about IMHO. </div></div>

Whoops again. Thank you. Also appreciate the good write up. Definitely helping me understand what I need to do.