Advanced Marksmanship More ?'s on "canting"

[NativeCraft]

Specifically the AR-15 in the sitting position for HP Service Rifle NM competitions. i.e. shooting in the sitting position at 200 and 300 yds.

In order to get a muscularly-relaxed position in sitting, that damned AR-15 is canted like hell....maybe 10-20 degrees, I'd guess. I can straighten it out if I twist it with my firing hand, but that's not a "relaxed" position.

One of the USAMU guys that was working with me at the CMP Eastern Games HP clinic explained that it was very important to try to keep 'er level, but I just can't (no pun) get rid of the cant...

Perhaps my sling is too tight? Should I learn to live with it?
Any recommendations?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

its the way of the world for nearly all people

 

[Lindy]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

If you're shooting HP competition, as long as you cant the rifle consistently, the effect of the cant winds up in your sight setting, so it doesn't really matter, since you are always shooting at unvarying distances.

Tactical competitions where you will shoot at unknown distances are another matter.

 

[Criver600]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

Listen to the USAMU guy.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

For HP sitting, cant can help get a muscularly relaxed position, but it can be a problem getting such a position consistently; and, that causes zeroing issues, with lost points being very possible. I shoot it straight up with a whole lot of control on the hand-guard from the non firing hand to make it straight up. I believe without the tension I'm putting into it, groups might be smaller but not always where they need to be for the best score.

 

[Criver600]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

Out of all your fellow shooters/competitors who have offered advice..... Who has the marksmanship skills to actually win a registered/regional match, have a pretty good showing at the inter=service matches at Quantico and the Nationals at Camp Perry?

 

[buggsb]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

I saw this link in another thread. It is the best description on canting and the effect on ballistic trajectory that I have seen.

The easiest path is to avoid canting the rifle altogether, however once you clearly understand the physics at work, it would seem realtively straight forward to predict and account for any effect of cant.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buggsb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw this link in another thread. It is the best description on canting and the effect on ballistic trajectory that I have seen.

The easiest path is to avoid canting the rifle altogether, however once you clearly understand the physics at work, it would seem realtively straight forward to predict and account for any effect of cant.</div></div>

It's not easy to understand the degree of cant with the sort of consistency necessary for winning results-what is easy is centering and balancing things.

 

[cal50]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

If you want your head in an upright position you will have to cant the rifle. If the rifle is vertical you will have to turn your head to adjust to the rifle. I have not fired service rifle in competition in the last couple years due to work and family time. I am classified HP at master level and I have tried the rifle both ways. I canted it to an extreme in sitting that I needed to add 1 1/2 minuted to my 200 yard zero when canted. I prefer to keep the rifle upright with minimal cant and no sight change. I do cant the rifle for off hand because an upright head position gives you better balance for off hand (IMHO). For sitting I get as low as possible with a crossed ankle / extended legs position.

 

[doc76251]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of all your fellow shooters/competitors who have offered advice..... Who has the marksmanship skills to actually win a registered/regional match, have a pretty good showing at the inter=service matches at Quantico and the Nationals at Camp Perry? </div></div>

I'll be your Huckleberry

I went from MU to MA in one trip to Camp Perry via the USNST and held my own at Q-Co where I still have 2 "cleans with teens" via M-852 in an M1A at 1K.

OK I was a sand bagging biotch

Positional "cant" is a product of body formation. If you are 5" - 4" and 275lbs there is no way in thunder that you will hold the rifle like a guy that is 6'-2" and 175lbs.

Exceptions do exist, shhuddup Mike!

The point is if you can consistently hold the rifle in the same place and have the G2 to adjust your sights accordingly you will stack X's.

Period, no argument, no school, no BS.

Have any of you actually watched G. David Tubb get into the sitting position while NOT being video taped? How about Nancy Thompkins? Boots?

Know what you do, do what you do and carry on.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[NativeCraft]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

Doc,
We can always count on you for a straight-up answer without holding anything back...

FWIW, I can get rid of most if not all of my cant by "steering" the rifle with my trigger hand by twisting outward on the grip. This certainly isn't a relaxed effort, though, and I don't think I should do be doing it.

 

[doc76251]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

Re- build your sitting position to raise your right elbow (A$$uME'ing your right handed) this will roll your shoulder up and forward that might get some of the cant out. It may take some wallowing around to figure something out.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

The difference between cant and no cant is a varience in windage adjustment for the various distance zeros. For Known Distances and permitted sighters, it's no biggie. For UKD, if you have a few zeros for Known Distances, you can usually interpolate.

I make a point of getting my reticles as level as possible to the bore, after that it's a matter of using the wetware and MK-1 Eyeball to recognize true horizontal and vertical.

Like a lot of things, there will be small errors, and like most of them, Ma Nature's little surprises will make them negligible.

The technique of zeroing at 100yd, then adjusting elevation (ONLY!) and plotting horizontal POI offset is the best way I know of to get a truly levelled reticle. Sometimes elevation travel and reticle verticality are not the same thing, and it's the travel that's important, because it's what zero adjustments are based upon.

Greg

 

[NativeCraft]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

My "reticle" is an aperture with a .052 front post...

Doc, I'll try "wallowing" around some and see what I can come up with.
BTW, when might you be headed to NC again?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

Sorry, I misread the problem; but for reticles, I think my answer stands fairly well.

Maybe some sort of spirit level thingie within the same visual reference as the front sight?

As for being able to achieve the contortions; to each his own, and may God help us all.

Greg

 

[doc76251]

Re: More ?'s on "canting"

I'd like to get down there in the next week or so, range options permitting.

Cheers,

Doc