Mosin Nagant Project

[dormandefense]

Hey guys,

I'm starting on a project with one of my 91/30s. I've decided to go with the boyds thumbhole featherweight stock.

I think I'm going to go with the RSI mount and pillars.

I plan on bedding with devcon

Anyway, my main questions is for input from all of you on barrel length. From what I've seen, the stock barrel at it's full length has some harmonic and flexibility issues. The "magic numbers" i'm hearing are 22" or 24".

Thoughts?

Any other suggestions on my project are welcome too!

 

[roggom]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Before you do anything, I would slug the bore and see what you are working with. If it is .312 or tighter then It should be a suitable donor. Anything larger and you will not group so well. .310 would be perfect, but of all the 91/30's I have owned I have not found a bore that good. I reload, so I can get the .312 to group at least 2 moa.

Anyway, if you are doing the cut and crown yourself, then I would start with a 24 and see how it works out, you can always go shorter later. I cut mine to 22 and it worked out fine.

 

[dormandefense]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you do anything, I would slug the bore and see what you are working with. If it is .312 or tighter then It should be a suitable donor. Anything larger and you will not group so well. .310 would be perfect, but of all the 91/30's I have owned I have not found a bore that good. I reload, so I can get the .312 to group at least 2 moa.

Anyway, if you are doing the cut and crown yourself, then I would start with a 24 and see how it works out, you can always go shorter later. I cut mine to 22 and it worked out fine.

</div></div>

Thanks for the advice!

Would this be what you'd consider a suitable method of slugging the bore? MOSIN RIFLE BORE SLUGGING

If I find that the diameter is larger than .312, is that any surplus barrels or anything of the like that you would recommend as a replacement? A new high quality barrel probably isn't in the budget for this build.

 

[roggom]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Yes that is the way.

In reality you have to establish realistic goals for your rifle. If you will be making a sporter for hunting in the woods, then 2-3 moa will be acceptable (for 200 or so yards).

If you have a .312 or smaller bore and reload, you can roll some ammo that will print in the 1 moa range @100Y, especially if you slow the speed down a little.

If your goal is shooting long range, then you want a tight bore. Most folks who shoot Mosins use .311 bullets, like the 174gr .311 matchkings over some varget or H4350. A .311 bullet in a .312 bore usually works fine, but in a .313 or .314 you will have shotgun pattern groups. So all of the work and mods will be for nothing.

As for changing the barrel, it would be cheaper to just buy another rifle and then sell off that one (if it does not work out)

So, slug your barrel and see what you are working with. If you have a loose bore, then you have to decide if you want to make the investment.

If you are doing all the work yourself, then there is a chance shortening the barrel will help groups, but there is a chance grouping will be worse. If anything try 24" first, then 22" guess the only thing you can do is remaining optimistic.

Here is a mosin I did myself, 36 Tula, .312 bore chopped to 22, with ATI stock, weaver side mount and old school Redfield 1-4 scope. Bolt turned down by max_Shepperd http://maxshepherdboltproducts.com/ It will print 1.5 moa @100Y with my reloads and 2moa with most bulgarian light ball surplus. Just one example of what can be done with the Mosin.

Now this one is not my Mosin, but it sure looks nice, I found it searching for express sights http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Number=150441

 

[experthunter017]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

I did one, and i cut mine to 22in and recrowned it myself, i recrowed it but taking a brass screw and putting in backward in a drill and bacially drilled my barrel, i aslo bought RSI scope mount and the pillers and the bent bolt they have.. THEY ARE AWESOME!! i have not had ANY issues from any of the three products. i have had some problems with the scope but i have it under control. i am shooting about 2 moa if you find my thread on here you should be able to see pictures of my rifle.

 

[dormandefense]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes that is the way.

In reality you have to establish realistic goals for your rifle. If you will be making a sporter for hunting in the woods, then 2-3 moa will be acceptable (for 200 or so yards).

If you have a .312 or smaller bore and reload, you can roll some ammo that will print in the 1 moa range @100Y, especially if you slow the speed down a little.

If your goal is shooting long range, then you want a tight bore. Most folks who shoot Mosins use .311 bullets, like the 174gr .311 matchkings over some varget or H4350. A .311 bullet in a .312 bore usually works fine, but in a .313 or .314 you will have shotgun pattern groups. So all of the work and mods will be for nothing.

As for changing the barrel, it would be cheaper to just buy another rifle and then sell off that one (if it does not work out)

So, slug your barrel and see what you are working with. If you have a loose bore, then you have to decide if you want to make the investment.

If you are doing all the work yourself, then there is a chance shortening the barrel will help groups, but there is a chance grouping will be worse. If anything try 24" first, then 22" guess the only thing you can do is remaining optimistic.

Here is a mosin I did myself, 36 Tula, .312 bore chopped to 22, with ATI stock, weaver side mount and old school Redfield 1-4 scope. Bolt turned down by max_Shepperd http://maxshepherdboltproducts.com/ It will print 1.5 moa @100Y with my reloads and 2moa with most bulgarian light ball surplus. Just one example of what can be done with the Mosin.

Now this one is not my Mosin, but it sure looks nice, I found it searching for express sights http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Number=150441

</div></div>

I don't have the highest of expectations for what this rifle will do. The main reason why I'm trying to optimize this rifle is that I have a fairly massive surplus of bulgarian light ball. I just want a decent stick to shoot some of it. Primarily it would be for training/hunting.

those are some nice looking mosins. I'll post some pictures up when I can get mine together.

My machinest called me and said that he squared the scope mount holes up with the elongated lower tangs of the receiver in the vice, but that once installed the mount looks slightly off center..... I went over to look at it, and sure enough it looked off. I saw the way he measured for the holes to be drilled and it looks like how i would have done it outside of using a clamp to square the mount with the flat bottom of the receiver. He said he would take care of it...

The barrel has been cut and recrowned.

If we can work out the scope mount issue, and I get the bolt back... It will be ready to go.....

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

roggom,

Great post. I have to say I was quite impressed with the sporterizing M-N's thread there. And the lower M-N really catches my fancy as something I'd like to have in the gun cabinet.

 

[mac2009]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

were would i go to find a after market barrel for the mn or is there even such a thing

 

[dormandefense]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

From what I've seen you would have to order a custom barrel with the tpi and diameter exactly matching the mosin receiver. You would also have to make a relief cut for the extractor I believe.

The cost of a barrel replacement would far outweigh the cost of the rifle.

Also keep in mind that I've seen where It took almost 600 ft/lb of torque to remove a mosin barrel. That kind of torque requires a specialized clamp and bolts that won't strip to tighten it down. Overall, it's a heck of a task.

You'd probably be much better off starting with a modern rifle chambered in what you are looking for if you're concerned about a barrel change. You may also want to reference previous comments on this thread to see about slugging your bore to see what the groove diameter is. Reference mosin slugging This will give you an idea of whether or not you can work with what you have. Most opinion is that .312 and under has decent potential.

The only reason I'm spending time and money in my Mosin is because I have a ton of 7.62.54r surplus ammo and nothing decent to shoot it with. That and because I don't have the extra money for a tigr or a vepr.

 

[dormandefense]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

OK. So, opinions....

The tang my machinist buddy used to align the scope mount holes is not matched to the centerline of the receiver. It is slightly off. So, since he used this as his reference the holes are off. So, he mentioned modifying the scope mount to slide it over.

Any opinions on the best way to fix this? I would much rather fix the hole locations on the receiver so that it's done right.

 

[kortik]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Hate to tell you this, but your machinist buddy has no idea what he is doing. Nobody in the right mind uses <span style="font-weight: bold">tang surfaces </span>as datum for drilling the holes in a receiver for a scope mount. Not sure what advice to give you, but he already screwed up your receiver, do you really want him to screw up the scope mount now? Sorry for not being techically specific, but you need at least to post of picture for technical people to see what can be recommended as a corrective action.

 

[dormandefense]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hate to tell you this, but your machinist buddy has no idea what he is doing. Nobody in the right mind uses <span style="font-weight: bold">tang surfaces </span>as datum for drilling the holes in a receiver for a scope mount. Not sure what advice to give you, but he already screwed up your receiver, do you really want him to screw up the scope mount now? Sorry for not being techically specific, but you need at least to post of picture for technical people to see what can be recommended as a corrective action.

</div></div>

That became painfully obvious when he told me it was crooked...



I've found that the only true surface for reference is the flat bottom of the receiver.

My plan was to get the rifle back, take some matching screws and anneal them, install them with red loctite, peen the head, grind, file, sand and re drill with a reference to the bottom flat..

When I dropped by to pick it up I found that he had fixed it. Though not in as simple of a way as I had planned to go. He devoted himself and an employee for most of the day to fixing this thing. I think his pride was sorely hurt.

Anyway, they ended up lathing a spacer and adjusting the holes in the mount enough to center it using the bottom flat. he found that the mount (I ended up getting the ATI because rock solid was out and I was impatient) wouldn't sit flush with the receiver even with everything in the right place. So, he actually milled a slot/channel mating between the mount and receiver.

It's not exactly what I would have expected, but it's flush and will not move off center at all even without the screws in place. I'm satisfied.

 

[kortik]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Just one more suggestion for you, considering prior negative experience you've had with him figuring out the correct position of the holes - make sure that no holes were drilled <span style="font-weight: bold">into the chamber</span>. I know of a several situations when people managed to drill thru receiver into the chamber while trying to install ATI scope mount.

 

[dormandefense]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

I've checked everything over, and the holes are all in line with the correct placement of the mount. holes are drilled rearward of the chamber into the spot indicated in the ati instructions. The flat spot of the mount opening is aligned flush with the opening in the receiver.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

He should have used a set of dial calipers to locate the centerline of the receiver... the tangs on my Mosins look like they were carved by a three year old with a Dremel.

Anyway...
Slugging the bore is fine, but after doing it a couple of times, I've decided it's a waste of my time. Interesting to know exactly what it might be, but it all comes down to how well it shoots.

Since you said you're only shooting surplus... (1) the bore size is irrelevant because you have no choice in ammo and (2) you're wasting a lot of your time and energy chopping and re-crowning the barrel and bedding the receiver to shoot surplus.

I've done it all with one of mine and it's a capable long-range gun (with a lot of other mods)- but you'll never see minute of angle unless you handload.

 

[Yustax]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

I will give you a recommendation, straight off a Mosin vet like myself.

First. Usually the mosin nagant barrel its a piece of shit, and it will get you to 100 yards in 2 inch, or even 1.5 inch on target with luck, shooting skills and quality of the ammo.

Second.

If you want good precision, try rebarrel your rifle with a UK 59 (its a machine gun) barrel, and mate it with your rifle. A cut, threaded and fully chambered UK59 barrels are $79 each new in the box and in stock. Should be about a 45min - 1 hour build.

Check out this thread for more info: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=123327

Third.

I've always wanted a tactical stock to go with it, sadly they dont make any. My recommendation is that you start to make your own on wood, then epoxy it, and do everything you want for it.

If not, go with a monte carlo, they are cheap synthetic stocks.

Fourth.

If you do not want to spend a lot of pain to mount a scope, go with see through mounts that its mounted on the action and the barrel.

http://www.jmeckscopemounts.com/

Here's the website.

Fifth.

Enjoy it! I commonly just frown at the disgusting tacticool shit I've seen, but there's so many Mosins, that well. You just gotta do something nice sometimes. I had a project, but I scrapped it off to buy a M24 SWS.

Maybe when I get more money in the piggy bank I'll do a match Mosin Nagant rifle.

Btw. Never, ever, EVER!!!!! Modify a finnish M28 or M39. There's not much of em and they are the best Mosins ever, with extremely good accuracy.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yustax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've always wanted a tactical stock to go with it, sadly they dont make any.
</div></div>

Maybe something like this?

 

[landcbeitner]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

This stock works well, I know of a few guys who bought them from over seas.

 

[Wigglesdabum]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Is that rifle yours Landcbeitner? If so , what barrel do you have on that rifle?

 

[landcbeitner]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Yes, it's mine. It's a Benchmark Barrel chambered in 260 rem... they filled in the bolt face for .437" but in retrospect I should have gone with the 6.5x54r... I just didn't want to wait for the reamer (I'll re-do it someday), it shoots as good as anything, used it in a match out to 1250yds,(placed 2nd).

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Mosin Nagant Project

Couple of ??...

Did you stick with the M28/76 stock- "stock"- or modify (bedding, pillars)? Some day I hope I'll be lucky enough to find one to put on my duplicator.

Did you true up the action at all while the barrel was off?
(I hear they're a bitch to get off).

Ditto on the 6.5 x 54R- hell, it worked for the Russians at Innsbruck. I imagine it's a lot of work necking down the brass for that caliber though. But with 15% more case capacity than the .308, it should make for some impressive velocities.

 

[JohnP123]

Hmm excellent caliber choice my next build il go that way thanks for the info Guys

 

[0933]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yustax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've always wanted a tactical stock to go with it, sadly they dont make any.
</div></div>

Maybe something like this?

You can buy these stocks here... http://www.biggorillagunworks.com/ He has several laminate colors, and walnut available. He's also going to put out a 'tactical' styl soon.

 

[0933]

I've been messing around with Mosin Nagants lately... and here is my $0.02.

This was my first project...

It was utilizing the originnal barrel cut to 26" and re-crowned.

Here is a five shot group at 100 yds with handloads.

Now this was with a bore that slugged .311" and some tuning... with SOME ammo the best she'll do is 3 MOA. Also the barrel is THIN!! I've got two... maybe three shots from a cold bore before rounds 'walk.'

It would be better to start with a heavy barrel. Shepard, a mod over on SOCAMO.com http://www.socamo.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=297 is selling MN barreled actions utilizing modern 1-10" twist hevy barrels in either .308" or .311" bore dia. He's also done several MN projects, and 7 builds with the UK-59 machine gune barrel.

SOCAMO.com is a great forum for info on sporterizing MN rifles.

 

[landcbeitner]

Couple of ??...

Did you stick with the M28/76 stock- "stock"- or modify (bedding, pillars)? Some day I hope I'll be lucky enough to find one to put on my duplicator.

Did you true up the action at all while the barrel was off?
(I hear they're a bitch to get off).

Ditto on the 6.5 x 54R- hell, it worked for the Russians at Innsbruck. I imagine it's a lot of work necking down the brass for that caliber though. But with 15% more case capacity than the .308, it should make for some impressive velocities.

The action was bedded and action screw holes were over drilled for devcon pillars. The face of the action was trued, but nothing else was touched. The barrels are tight, but this one was last assembled in the 70's... so nothing like the really old ones probably.

You can get 6.5x54R brass, no need to neck down... don't remember off the top of my head who made it (RWS or Lapua, I think).

 

[dormandefense]

Here's my mosin thus far...

 

[dormandefense]

<a href="http://s696.beta.photobucket.com/user/rockscreation16/media/2013-02-27_17-12-03_192.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv326/rockscreation16/2013-02-27_17-12-03_192.jpg" border="0" alt="mosin sniper photo 2013-02-27_17-12-03_192.jpg"/></a>

 

[dormandefense]

<a href="http://s696.beta.photobucket.com/user/rockscreation16/media/2013-02-28_12-54-41_305.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv326/rockscreation16/2013-02-28_12-54-41_305.jpg" border="0" alt="3 shot first group photo 2013-02-28_12-54-41_305.jpg"/></a>


First group with a warm barrel after sight in at 100 yards. using 60 year old surplus ammo

I was astounded at this grouping as I was expecting to see +3" groups