My friend and I have had a brief discussion on reading the wind and which zone one should take the most heed of.When I shoot on the range I always look at the range as a whole but see the near flags as the most important as the the bullet will have the first and longest affected flight time from there .My friend see's the bullet at its slowest point on the down range flags as the most important as a slower bullet and less BC is affected greatly also .Can some explain in laymans terms the importance of the zones and which one you should take most heed of and why ..I had posted this on the site my friend is on but answers didnt come freely and in detail as I expected - I am sure they will here !
Re: Most Important wind
Thanks for the pointer there Greg !It looks like a good lot of posts
Thanks for the pointer there Greg !It looks like a good lot of posts
Re: Most Important wind
I only dope the wind at me, the shooter. That is the only wind I can 100% verify in terms of direction and velocity. Everything else is an educated guess after that.
I have said it a dozen times the working the wind at the shooter is what I consider the Science department and the wind everywhere else is the Art department. Even with flags, and most of the time without, there is no one who can tell you what the wind is doing 1000 yards away from your position, other than blowing. Any other accuracy in the call it is BS at best. What you do is read the gust at the shooter, and then try to do determine where within the gusts you're shooting. Saying your readying anything other than a ebb and flow is near impossible to know.
As well depending on your shot, the bullet may not have slowed down as much as your friend thinks to be effected great enough at the short distance of a target wind. However once the bullet starts off it continues to move off never returning towards the target as it is not a smart weapon. So 1" of deflect at 200 yards will continue to push the bullet farther and farther off target. If only downrange wind was present you would still have the opportunity to nick the target because it still moves that fast. (metaphorically)
And you have max ord wind, which I think has a substantial effect on longer range shots as the bullet lives in the air where the wind increases as you go up in elevation and you don't have to go up very far to see the difference. So if you read it as 10MPH on the ground it could be 11 - 13MPH at Max Order where the bullet lives, which is what causes an effect as well.
Bottom line, dope the shooter, a number you know, follow the fundamentals, get straight behind the rifle, and if you did it right whether you hit or missed the bullet will give you 100% of the information you need to make a second shot hit regardless of the wind. Just dont' wait and shoot through the wind and don't try to shoot around or inbetween it.
I only dope the wind at me, the shooter. That is the only wind I can 100% verify in terms of direction and velocity. Everything else is an educated guess after that.
I have said it a dozen times the working the wind at the shooter is what I consider the Science department and the wind everywhere else is the Art department. Even with flags, and most of the time without, there is no one who can tell you what the wind is doing 1000 yards away from your position, other than blowing. Any other accuracy in the call it is BS at best. What you do is read the gust at the shooter, and then try to do determine where within the gusts you're shooting. Saying your readying anything other than a ebb and flow is near impossible to know.
As well depending on your shot, the bullet may not have slowed down as much as your friend thinks to be effected great enough at the short distance of a target wind. However once the bullet starts off it continues to move off never returning towards the target as it is not a smart weapon. So 1" of deflect at 200 yards will continue to push the bullet farther and farther off target. If only downrange wind was present you would still have the opportunity to nick the target because it still moves that fast. (metaphorically)
And you have max ord wind, which I think has a substantial effect on longer range shots as the bullet lives in the air where the wind increases as you go up in elevation and you don't have to go up very far to see the difference. So if you read it as 10MPH on the ground it could be 11 - 13MPH at Max Order where the bullet lives, which is what causes an effect as well.
Bottom line, dope the shooter, a number you know, follow the fundamentals, get straight behind the rifle, and if you did it right whether you hit or missed the bullet will give you 100% of the information you need to make a second shot hit regardless of the wind. Just dont' wait and shoot through the wind and don't try to shoot around or inbetween it.
Re: Most Important wind
Thanks for the your insight lowlight .Its just that I have been taught to read the near wind first and approximate the rest -well guess it! My range can give me a 3 oclock wind in the first flags and a 6pm at the 1000 and something different in the guts. Read the first wind and voodoo the rest
Thanks for the your insight lowlight .Its just that I have been taught to read the near wind first and approximate the rest -well guess it! My range can give me a 3 oclock wind in the first flags and a 6pm at the 1000 and something different in the guts. Read the first wind and voodoo the rest
Re: Most Important wind
when I went through USMC scout/sniper school, we were taught to not worry about the 100, 200 and 300 yard (Unless making a surgical shot at 200/300 u might put 1 or MAYBE 2 min.windage)line because the round (175gr. BTHP) was the LEAST affected at these ranges because of the velocity,BC and weight of the bullet.
BUT, if your shooting beyond 300. Your observer/spotter has to look at the wind at every yard line and make the proper adjustments in DOPE.
So if you were shooting 1000 yards your observer would judge, make a wind call looking at 300, 400, 5,6,7, 8,9, and 1000yds. Then give the shooter the proper adjustments to dial on the gun.
One off the first things our instructors showed us is we went to the 1000 yard line and an instructor went at 200 400 600 800 and 1000 yards and each at the same time dropped a different color smoke grenade, wind at 400 may be goin full value right to left, BUT at 600 might be going full value left to right, the exact opposite, so any adjustment dialed on because of the 400 wind call would be countered. This happens because of terrain, wind gusts etc...
when I went through USMC scout/sniper school, we were taught to not worry about the 100, 200 and 300 yard (Unless making a surgical shot at 200/300 u might put 1 or MAYBE 2 min.windage)line because the round (175gr. BTHP) was the LEAST affected at these ranges because of the velocity,BC and weight of the bullet.
BUT, if your shooting beyond 300. Your observer/spotter has to look at the wind at every yard line and make the proper adjustments in DOPE.
So if you were shooting 1000 yards your observer would judge, make a wind call looking at 300, 400, 5,6,7, 8,9, and 1000yds. Then give the shooter the proper adjustments to dial on the gun.
One off the first things our instructors showed us is we went to the 1000 yard line and an instructor went at 200 400 600 800 and 1000 yards and each at the same time dropped a different color smoke grenade, wind at 400 may be goin full value right to left, BUT at 600 might be going full value left to right, the exact opposite, so any adjustment dialed on because of the 400 wind call would be countered. This happens because of terrain, wind gusts etc...
Re: Most Important wind
I shot a 1000 yard tournament last Sunday. Using my Service Rifle, shooting 80 grain Berger's stuffed over 24.5 grains of Re-15 for about 2740 fps, I mananged a 185 and 2 in my second match. I took wind at mid range initially, perceiving I'd need about 4 minutes. I was short about one minute. For the rest of that string, I attemped to shoot through the prevailing MID-RANGE wind. I shot a few 8's during the string when the wind either let off or picked up about 2 mph, which I obviously did not perceive. Bottom line, although I do know how to do it-it's not a science which can be observed well enough, even by a trained observer, to get it right all the time. Sometimes it's just plain luck. Had I had a little more luck, perhaps, I would have shot better, who knows. At any rate, the somewhat unpredictable results which wind inspires makes it fun, and keeps it all very entertaining.
I shot a 1000 yard tournament last Sunday. Using my Service Rifle, shooting 80 grain Berger's stuffed over 24.5 grains of Re-15 for about 2740 fps, I mananged a 185 and 2 in my second match. I took wind at mid range initially, perceiving I'd need about 4 minutes. I was short about one minute. For the rest of that string, I attemped to shoot through the prevailing MID-RANGE wind. I shot a few 8's during the string when the wind either let off or picked up about 2 mph, which I obviously did not perceive. Bottom line, although I do know how to do it-it's not a science which can be observed well enough, even by a trained observer, to get it right all the time. Sometimes it's just plain luck. Had I had a little more luck, perhaps, I would have shot better, who knows. At any rate, the somewhat unpredictable results which wind inspires makes it fun, and keeps it all very entertaining.
Re: Most Important wind
Part of the problem I think is trying to shoot a string across 20 minutes.
I think if you actually dope the wind, shot, stood up, doped the wind and shot taking each shots as its own, there might be more "luck" in that, as you're not counting on conditions to be similar over a long period of time.
There is too much delay in the carriage going down and coming up to really get a 100% of the information you need to keep every shot in the black, over that much time. Wind changes, some times faster than other times so the more delay you put between your shots, the harder it is to properly dope the wind with any real degree of accuracy which is why we depend on wind cheating bullets in hopes the changes have less of an effect downrange.
I have seen guys shoot a 1000 yards, 5 shots on steel and the ones who shoot the best, usually are shooting the fastest as they are not waiting and trying to recreate what the think the conditions are, so it becomes a race to beat the wind.
I think in a competition that is making you wait for guys in the butts to pulls a carriage down, score it, you need to reset for each and every shot including re-doping the wind as much as possible. Not simply going off something you read 10 minutes earlier.
We see it completely change direction from one shooter to another in a few seconds, if you are focusing on some other aspect of the shot, it would be easy to miss.
Part of the problem I think is trying to shoot a string across 20 minutes.
I think if you actually dope the wind, shot, stood up, doped the wind and shot taking each shots as its own, there might be more "luck" in that, as you're not counting on conditions to be similar over a long period of time.
There is too much delay in the carriage going down and coming up to really get a 100% of the information you need to keep every shot in the black, over that much time. Wind changes, some times faster than other times so the more delay you put between your shots, the harder it is to properly dope the wind with any real degree of accuracy which is why we depend on wind cheating bullets in hopes the changes have less of an effect downrange.
I have seen guys shoot a 1000 yards, 5 shots on steel and the ones who shoot the best, usually are shooting the fastest as they are not waiting and trying to recreate what the think the conditions are, so it becomes a race to beat the wind.
I think in a competition that is making you wait for guys in the butts to pulls a carriage down, score it, you need to reset for each and every shot including re-doping the wind as much as possible. Not simply going off something you read 10 minutes earlier.
We see it completely change direction from one shooter to another in a few seconds, if you are focusing on some other aspect of the shot, it would be easy to miss.
Re: Most Important wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Part of the problem I think is trying to shoot a string across 20 minutes.
I think if you actually dope the wind, shot, stood up, doped the wind and shot taking each shots as its own, there might be more "luck" in that, as you're not counting on conditions to be similar over a long period of time.
There is too much delay in the carriage going down and coming up to really get a 100% of the information you need to keep every shot in the black, over that much time. Wind changes, some times faster than other times so the more delay you put between your shots, the harder it is to properly dope the wind with any real degree of accuracy which is why we depend on wind cheating bullets in hopes the changes have less of an effect downrange.
I have seen guys shoot a 1000 yards, 5 shots on steel and the ones who shoot the best, usually are shooting the fastest as they are not waiting and trying to recreate what the think the conditions are, so it becomes a race to beat the wind.
I think in a competition that is making you wait for guys in the butts to pulls a carriage down, score it, you need to reset for each and every shot including re-doping the wind as much as possible. Not simply going off something you read 10 minutes earlier.
We see it completely change direction from one shooter to another in a few seconds, if you are focusing on some other aspect of the shot, it would be easy to miss. </div></div>
Yes, of course, it's exactly as you mention. The speed of the target pullers makes a difference in keeping up with it all, if shooting the prevailing wind is the stratgy. Yet, my biggest concern is the time it takes me to dress up the sight picture can make me vunerable to a wind change which, being in my bubble, is not recognized. Unlike with magnification, it takes some time to get a feel for when the front sight is actually in a consistent relationship with the target; and, while getting the hold I'm after, the wind can change to pretty well screw me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Part of the problem I think is trying to shoot a string across 20 minutes.
I think if you actually dope the wind, shot, stood up, doped the wind and shot taking each shots as its own, there might be more "luck" in that, as you're not counting on conditions to be similar over a long period of time.
There is too much delay in the carriage going down and coming up to really get a 100% of the information you need to keep every shot in the black, over that much time. Wind changes, some times faster than other times so the more delay you put between your shots, the harder it is to properly dope the wind with any real degree of accuracy which is why we depend on wind cheating bullets in hopes the changes have less of an effect downrange.
I have seen guys shoot a 1000 yards, 5 shots on steel and the ones who shoot the best, usually are shooting the fastest as they are not waiting and trying to recreate what the think the conditions are, so it becomes a race to beat the wind.
I think in a competition that is making you wait for guys in the butts to pulls a carriage down, score it, you need to reset for each and every shot including re-doping the wind as much as possible. Not simply going off something you read 10 minutes earlier.
We see it completely change direction from one shooter to another in a few seconds, if you are focusing on some other aspect of the shot, it would be easy to miss. </div></div>
Yes, of course, it's exactly as you mention. The speed of the target pullers makes a difference in keeping up with it all, if shooting the prevailing wind is the stratgy. Yet, my biggest concern is the time it takes me to dress up the sight picture can make me vunerable to a wind change which, being in my bubble, is not recognized. Unlike with magnification, it takes some time to get a feel for when the front sight is actually in a consistent relationship with the target; and, while getting the hold I'm after, the wind can change to pretty well screw me.
Re: Most Important wind
it is a function of the lay of the land.....if you shoot anyplace other than a square range....or un-improved ranges....the wind nearest the target can and will goof on you big time....some other members here got a range in Nacona Texas....its on a working oil field....and there is a huge divot in the earth 200yd in front of the 1000yd berm....when the wind blows at 90*....one can be putting them in the Xring one minute....the next round will go SIX FOOT high.....tremdous up draft right in that last zone....
or Zack Smith run a match in NM that has shooters trying to place rounds across arroyo and canyons in vicious X-wind and cut back.....very challenging......so i'm a big believer in the concept of that last zone....i always check my chicken bones and rabbits foot before i torch off.
it is a function of the lay of the land.....if you shoot anyplace other than a square range....or un-improved ranges....the wind nearest the target can and will goof on you big time....some other members here got a range in Nacona Texas....its on a working oil field....and there is a huge divot in the earth 200yd in front of the 1000yd berm....when the wind blows at 90*....one can be putting them in the Xring one minute....the next round will go SIX FOOT high.....tremdous up draft right in that last zone....
or Zack Smith run a match in NM that has shooters trying to place rounds across arroyo and canyons in vicious X-wind and cut back.....very challenging......so i'm a big believer in the concept of that last zone....i always check my chicken bones and rabbits foot before i torch off.
Re: Most Important wind
The wind with the most effect on your bullet occurs as the bullet nears the peak of its arc, at the peak of the arc, and between the peak and the target. This is true whether on a KD range with pit service or out in more natural settings with varied terrain.
A KD range with pits and carriages is an EXCELLENT place to get feedback on your wind reading skills. A shooter that keeps them in the middle paired with a good pit puller can accomplish a 3-4 second timespan between the shot being fired and the target being back up in the air. Couple that with a good spotter that knows how to read a trace and you have INSTANTANEOUS feedback from the spotter combined with the target being in the air confirming the spotter's call of the trace in 3-4 seconds. The whole time that cycle is occurring you are watching the wind to see what changed from the time the shot was fired to when back in the air and taking that into account before firing the next shot.
Waiting to see what the target tells you as your main means of wind correction then correcting off that, whether the feedback occurs in 3 seconds or 30, is called "chasing the spotter", which under most circumstances is a highly ineffective way to shoot in the wind. You want to take the shot with your best wind call, watch for the condition changes, and correlate those changes with the shot placement that comes up on the target in order to determine the dope for your next shot.
The wind with the most effect on your bullet occurs as the bullet nears the peak of its arc, at the peak of the arc, and between the peak and the target. This is true whether on a KD range with pit service or out in more natural settings with varied terrain.
A KD range with pits and carriages is an EXCELLENT place to get feedback on your wind reading skills. A shooter that keeps them in the middle paired with a good pit puller can accomplish a 3-4 second timespan between the shot being fired and the target being back up in the air. Couple that with a good spotter that knows how to read a trace and you have INSTANTANEOUS feedback from the spotter combined with the target being in the air confirming the spotter's call of the trace in 3-4 seconds. The whole time that cycle is occurring you are watching the wind to see what changed from the time the shot was fired to when back in the air and taking that into account before firing the next shot.
Waiting to see what the target tells you as your main means of wind correction then correcting off that, whether the feedback occurs in 3 seconds or 30, is called "chasing the spotter", which under most circumstances is a highly ineffective way to shoot in the wind. You want to take the shot with your best wind call, watch for the condition changes, and correlate those changes with the shot placement that comes up on the target in order to determine the dope for your next shot.
Re: Most Important wind
Lowlifht's and 9Hotel's comments above are two very good things to read, copy/paste to your notes, and study over and over, for they are very true.
The 30 minute frame with 20 rounds for score, bad target service, and chasing the spotter kill more scores than anything else I've seen in 30 years of shooting those comps.
I cannot hold a position long enough to wait for the "condition" to come back and be physically ready for the shot. I don't know that many people who can.
The champions I know re-dope each shot for the condition at that minute. That's why the coach on team matches puts the dope on for you with irons, dope the shot for that minute.
And what was said about shooting steel, I have seen so many times, the faster you shoot them in the same condition, the better the hits. However, shooting too fast can cause you to miss a change in the wind because you concentrate too much on getting the shots off and don't see the wind change and you miss.
Good call 9Hotel on the wind at the arc of the bullet, too few people think of this or practice on it. Folks, that is for real.
Boltripper made good point to discuss about rough terrain shooting that you can only find out by shooting rough terrain. Get off the flat ranges..
Lowlifht's and 9Hotel's comments above are two very good things to read, copy/paste to your notes, and study over and over, for they are very true.
The 30 minute frame with 20 rounds for score, bad target service, and chasing the spotter kill more scores than anything else I've seen in 30 years of shooting those comps.
I cannot hold a position long enough to wait for the "condition" to come back and be physically ready for the shot. I don't know that many people who can.
The champions I know re-dope each shot for the condition at that minute. That's why the coach on team matches puts the dope on for you with irons, dope the shot for that minute.
And what was said about shooting steel, I have seen so many times, the faster you shoot them in the same condition, the better the hits. However, shooting too fast can cause you to miss a change in the wind because you concentrate too much on getting the shots off and don't see the wind change and you miss.
Good call 9Hotel on the wind at the arc of the bullet, too few people think of this or practice on it. Folks, that is for real.
Boltripper made good point to discuss about rough terrain shooting that you can only find out by shooting rough terrain. Get off the flat ranges..
Re: Most Important wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Waiting to see what the target tells you as your main means of wind correction then correcting off that, whether the feedback occurs in 3 seconds or 30, is called "chasing the spotter", which under most circumstances is a highly ineffective way to shoot in the wind. You want to take the shot with your best wind call, watch for the condition changes, and correlate those changes with the shot placement that comes up on the target in order to determine the dope for your next shot.</div></div>
Chasing spotters is something I see new LR shooters do, who, for the most part, don't have basic prone marksmanship in the bag yet. Usually, they don't distinguish whether it's wind and/or position precluding them from bullets hitting right-in-there. Of course, chasing a spotter from non-existent wind has the same result as that of chasing a spotter from wind that's in the context of history.
BTW, 9H, the 80 grain Berger's you recommended to me awhile back, I've discovered, set at about .010 off, are really hammering it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Waiting to see what the target tells you as your main means of wind correction then correcting off that, whether the feedback occurs in 3 seconds or 30, is called "chasing the spotter", which under most circumstances is a highly ineffective way to shoot in the wind. You want to take the shot with your best wind call, watch for the condition changes, and correlate those changes with the shot placement that comes up on the target in order to determine the dope for your next shot.</div></div>
Chasing spotters is something I see new LR shooters do, who, for the most part, don't have basic prone marksmanship in the bag yet. Usually, they don't distinguish whether it's wind and/or position precluding them from bullets hitting right-in-there. Of course, chasing a spotter from non-existent wind has the same result as that of chasing a spotter from wind that's in the context of history.
BTW, 9H, the 80 grain Berger's you recommended to me awhile back, I've discovered, set at about .010 off, are really hammering it.
Re: Most Important wind
I gotta disagree with 9H on this one. When thinking of wind, it's physically got to have the most affect at the furthest distance from the target, which is...at the shooter. If you're shooting centerfire, there's a good chance the bullet's wobbling around a bit, and providing large area to catch the bullet. Likewise, a 1 minute change in flight @ shooter will transfer to a much larger miss @ target than a 1 minute change @ peak arc. Savvy? Am I wrong here?
OK, got another one for you. Wind in and of itself can mess with you. However, do you know which winds to MOST watch out for? Now, I ain't talking a 3 to 9 switch. That's too obvious. What happens when you get a 5 to 7 or an 11 to 1 change? Figure it out, and you'll really be surprised.
I gotta disagree with 9H on this one. When thinking of wind, it's physically got to have the most affect at the furthest distance from the target, which is...at the shooter. If you're shooting centerfire, there's a good chance the bullet's wobbling around a bit, and providing large area to catch the bullet. Likewise, a 1 minute change in flight @ shooter will transfer to a much larger miss @ target than a 1 minute change @ peak arc. Savvy? Am I wrong here?
OK, got another one for you. Wind in and of itself can mess with you. However, do you know which winds to MOST watch out for? Now, I ain't talking a 3 to 9 switch. That's too obvious. What happens when you get a 5 to 7 or an 11 to 1 change? Figure it out, and you'll really be surprised.
Re: Most Important wind
1SMALLJOHNSON over what range are you talking and how many variables winds on the given course through say 4 250 yard zones ?
1SMALLJOHNSON over what range are you talking and how many variables winds on the given course through say 4 250 yard zones ?
Re: Most Important wind
Disagree all you want Mr. Johnson. I subscribe to the Mid Thompkins theory of wind reading. When you look vertically, that is from the ground up, the wind has the least velocity right at the ground. Your muzzle is about 10 inches off the ground, and the bullet tracking fairly close to the ground during the first third of its flight at moderate "long" ranges. It is also traveling at its highest velocity, which is during its flight is its best chance of fighting the effects of the wind.
When watching the trace of a bullet at 600 yards a hot round with a decent BC never arcs above the black of the 600 yard target - meaning its trajectory is fairly flat and the bullet not far from the ground. Stretch that out a bit and the bullet gets quite a bit higher.
As jhuskey knows, when you watch the trace of the bullet in wind, it pretty well goes straight where it is pointed to the peak of the arc, then "breaks" into the target on the way down. Seeing that same thing over and over and over watching the trace, I have absolutely no doubt that watching the wind in the vicinity of the peak of the arc is where the most effect happens to the bullet from the wind. The wind at the muzzle does not make the bullet break hard 700 yards from the muzzle.
The fallacy most people don't even realize that they hold about the wind is that when you look at say a 10 MPH full value wind that they assume that the value is the same from the point the bullet leaves the muzzle until it hits the target. Not only is the wind variable over that distance, it also varies based on the path of the bullet. You have to think about the wind that the bullet is passing thru and make your call based on that.
If ever you get a chance to be on a 1000 yard 100 point range with 20 or more wind flags up, you can really see that the wind is variable much of the time between the muzzle and the target. I can watch a west-to-east wind come down the range from say north to south, then have basically the same wind between the muzzle and the target for a period of time, but then am watching for both value and direction shifts the whole path of the bullet. You can use your scope to look at mirage at multiple heights above ground as well as set your focus at various distances to look at it in the horizontal plane between you and the target.
I use a "grid" approach, vertical, horizontal towards the target, and the width of the range not only the path of my firing point but on both sides, in order to calculate a wind condition. The wind condition at the peak of the arc gets the most value in my calculation, the wind at the muzzle the least.
The bullet in the first 50 or 100 yards not only is in the least wind being close to the ground it also is working at its highest BC value it will see for the duration of its flight AND its exposure to that wind, thought of as time of flight, is the least due to its velocity. Conversely, at its peak in the arc the velocity is down so its time of flight exposure to that wind is longer, its BC is decreased at the lower velocity, and it is higher in the air where the wind is blowing faster.
That's the theory I subscribe to, and watching traces seems to support it. In a 600 yard match you want watch the trace of a shooter that puts say 3 minutes of wind on, the bullet goes in a relatively flat arc until it intersects the 7 ring, then it hooks into the 10 ring late in its flight.
On the whole subject of waiting for a condition versus just clicking and shooting for what you think is down there, the champs I know, like the Tompkins family and dtubb, most certainly wait for their "shoot" condition. It is in both of their books. For field shooting or real sniping one may not have the luxury of waiting on the wind, but with block time on a KD range picking your shoot and no shoot conditions has its merits. Sometimes you'll get a "new condition" during your string as winds change throughout the day, but go into a string with your condition strategy picked out before firing your first sighter and stick to it if you can. On a KD range you will always score at least one string before it is your turn to shoot, so between the other shooter's prep time, his string, and your prep time you can evaluate the wind for upwards of 35 minutes before you even get into your shooting time. As the wind tends to go in 4 to 7 minute "cycles", you can watch several cycles in that 35 minutes AS WELL AS WATCH THE TARGETS of the other shooters and test your wind reading and the condition. Learn from other's mistakes. Also, if all of a sudden it starts to get quiet, STOP SHOOTING!!!! Something is going on with the wind. Get on the scope, look at targets, see who got caught by it and what it did to them. If a new condition starts, don't be the first to shoot in it.
Disagree all you want Mr. Johnson. I subscribe to the Mid Thompkins theory of wind reading. When you look vertically, that is from the ground up, the wind has the least velocity right at the ground. Your muzzle is about 10 inches off the ground, and the bullet tracking fairly close to the ground during the first third of its flight at moderate "long" ranges. It is also traveling at its highest velocity, which is during its flight is its best chance of fighting the effects of the wind.
When watching the trace of a bullet at 600 yards a hot round with a decent BC never arcs above the black of the 600 yard target - meaning its trajectory is fairly flat and the bullet not far from the ground. Stretch that out a bit and the bullet gets quite a bit higher.
As jhuskey knows, when you watch the trace of the bullet in wind, it pretty well goes straight where it is pointed to the peak of the arc, then "breaks" into the target on the way down. Seeing that same thing over and over and over watching the trace, I have absolutely no doubt that watching the wind in the vicinity of the peak of the arc is where the most effect happens to the bullet from the wind. The wind at the muzzle does not make the bullet break hard 700 yards from the muzzle.
The fallacy most people don't even realize that they hold about the wind is that when you look at say a 10 MPH full value wind that they assume that the value is the same from the point the bullet leaves the muzzle until it hits the target. Not only is the wind variable over that distance, it also varies based on the path of the bullet. You have to think about the wind that the bullet is passing thru and make your call based on that.
If ever you get a chance to be on a 1000 yard 100 point range with 20 or more wind flags up, you can really see that the wind is variable much of the time between the muzzle and the target. I can watch a west-to-east wind come down the range from say north to south, then have basically the same wind between the muzzle and the target for a period of time, but then am watching for both value and direction shifts the whole path of the bullet. You can use your scope to look at mirage at multiple heights above ground as well as set your focus at various distances to look at it in the horizontal plane between you and the target.
I use a "grid" approach, vertical, horizontal towards the target, and the width of the range not only the path of my firing point but on both sides, in order to calculate a wind condition. The wind condition at the peak of the arc gets the most value in my calculation, the wind at the muzzle the least.
The bullet in the first 50 or 100 yards not only is in the least wind being close to the ground it also is working at its highest BC value it will see for the duration of its flight AND its exposure to that wind, thought of as time of flight, is the least due to its velocity. Conversely, at its peak in the arc the velocity is down so its time of flight exposure to that wind is longer, its BC is decreased at the lower velocity, and it is higher in the air where the wind is blowing faster.
That's the theory I subscribe to, and watching traces seems to support it. In a 600 yard match you want watch the trace of a shooter that puts say 3 minutes of wind on, the bullet goes in a relatively flat arc until it intersects the 7 ring, then it hooks into the 10 ring late in its flight.
On the whole subject of waiting for a condition versus just clicking and shooting for what you think is down there, the champs I know, like the Tompkins family and dtubb, most certainly wait for their "shoot" condition. It is in both of their books. For field shooting or real sniping one may not have the luxury of waiting on the wind, but with block time on a KD range picking your shoot and no shoot conditions has its merits. Sometimes you'll get a "new condition" during your string as winds change throughout the day, but go into a string with your condition strategy picked out before firing your first sighter and stick to it if you can. On a KD range you will always score at least one string before it is your turn to shoot, so between the other shooter's prep time, his string, and your prep time you can evaluate the wind for upwards of 35 minutes before you even get into your shooting time. As the wind tends to go in 4 to 7 minute "cycles", you can watch several cycles in that 35 minutes AS WELL AS WATCH THE TARGETS of the other shooters and test your wind reading and the condition. Learn from other's mistakes. Also, if all of a sudden it starts to get quiet, STOP SHOOTING!!!! Something is going on with the wind. Get on the scope, look at targets, see who got caught by it and what it did to them. If a new condition starts, don't be the first to shoot in it.
Re: Most Important wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a "grid" approach, vertical, horizontal towards the target, and the width of the range not only the path of my firing point but on both sides, in order to calculate a wind condition. <span style="font-weight: bold">The wind condition at the peak of the arc gets the most value in my calculation, the wind at the muzzle the least.</span></div></div>
Not that I am disagreeing with the majority of your post, but are you saying you don't "read" the wind speed at your position at all, you simply calculate the value based on a wind flag or mirage down range ? So no wind meter is involved in your method.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a "grid" approach, vertical, horizontal towards the target, and the width of the range not only the path of my firing point but on both sides, in order to calculate a wind condition. <span style="font-weight: bold">The wind condition at the peak of the arc gets the most value in my calculation, the wind at the muzzle the least.</span></div></div>
Not that I am disagreeing with the majority of your post, but are you saying you don't "read" the wind speed at your position at all, you simply calculate the value based on a wind flag or mirage down range ? So no wind meter is involved in your method.
Re: Most Important wind
There is no wind meter in my kit LL. If there is one in yours, put it 10 inches off the ground, then tape it to the top of your scope rods and hold it up as high as you can. Tell me if the readings are the same.
If I feel like the wind at whatever yardline I am at is representative of what I think is going on down range and someone else holds a windmeter up I'll peak at their reading, sure, but I consider what is going on at the firing line just one element to be evaluated.
THAT SAID, I most certainly do look at what is going on at the firing point I'm on. Flags at your firing point and even behind you can help you see changes approaching before they get to the path where your bullet flies. Maybe you can sneak a shot off before that condition works its way past you and down range, or maybe you hold up and wait for that coming condition to stabilize between you and the target. Or maybe what you see behind you and at your firing point are confirming that your condition down range will be steady for a while.
Think of it like dumping a bucket of water out on concrete and watching it flow away from you. The concrete is not suddenly 100% wet between you and the street - it takes a while to get there. So does wind.
There is no wind meter in my kit LL. If there is one in yours, put it 10 inches off the ground, then tape it to the top of your scope rods and hold it up as high as you can. Tell me if the readings are the same.
If I feel like the wind at whatever yardline I am at is representative of what I think is going on down range and someone else holds a windmeter up I'll peak at their reading, sure, but I consider what is going on at the firing line just one element to be evaluated.
THAT SAID, I most certainly do look at what is going on at the firing point I'm on. Flags at your firing point and even behind you can help you see changes approaching before they get to the path where your bullet flies. Maybe you can sneak a shot off before that condition works its way past you and down range, or maybe you hold up and wait for that coming condition to stabilize between you and the target. Or maybe what you see behind you and at your firing point are confirming that your condition down range will be steady for a while.
Think of it like dumping a bucket of water out on concrete and watching it flow away from you. The concrete is not suddenly 100% wet between you and the street - it takes a while to get there. So does wind.
Re: Most Important wind
wind meters are certainly an aid to enhance one wind doping skills....as are flags, and trees and bushes and smoke and mirage....
wind meters are certainly an aid to enhance one wind doping skills....as are flags, and trees and bushes and smoke and mirage....
Re: Most Important wind
Leo. you're not telling me anything about wind differences in what you are saying, we shoot off a 22 foot tower with a deck at 12 ft and at 22 ft and the wind at Rifles Only rivals the wind anywhere on the planet. That I promise you, 10+ is a daily average for us, it barely if ever goes below that. So with that I can say, wind flags alone are a handicap unless you live at a manicured range, and mirage past that 10MPH is just a running river. I don't really see how you can get a "real" value without a baseline. Especially in stronger winds, light winds, sure, but stronger winds.
As well, if you're "listening" to shooters around and "peeking" its not really an honest representation of the method.
We shoot the wind, unflinchingly, and we shoot it for first round effect, not an aggregate of score, although anytime you spend some time at the same yard line you're getting that same string of fire validation.
I plan on shooting a video, one from the ground and then going up to the two decks of the tower so people can see the difference. Max ord of a 308 at 1000 yards is roughly that 12 to 14 ft above the shooter, that I can walk up, so I don't need to guess, I can read it. If the ground says 8MPH which is generally does, the first deck is at least 10, the top deck is easily 14MPH...
I just get a bit skeptical of people who can "read" things 700 yards away 10ft in the air without a base line value, and if the flag is the only value what does mean when you have no flag, or how about in a desert or rocky mountain setting when there are no "trees, Leaves, or Grass"... spotting scopes might work, but only given time and opportunity, which isn't always the case. What you feel on you, wind meter or not is still your best guess, which would mean, wind at the shooter.
Leo. you're not telling me anything about wind differences in what you are saying, we shoot off a 22 foot tower with a deck at 12 ft and at 22 ft and the wind at Rifles Only rivals the wind anywhere on the planet. That I promise you, 10+ is a daily average for us, it barely if ever goes below that. So with that I can say, wind flags alone are a handicap unless you live at a manicured range, and mirage past that 10MPH is just a running river. I don't really see how you can get a "real" value without a baseline. Especially in stronger winds, light winds, sure, but stronger winds.
As well, if you're "listening" to shooters around and "peeking" its not really an honest representation of the method.
We shoot the wind, unflinchingly, and we shoot it for first round effect, not an aggregate of score, although anytime you spend some time at the same yard line you're getting that same string of fire validation.
I plan on shooting a video, one from the ground and then going up to the two decks of the tower so people can see the difference. Max ord of a 308 at 1000 yards is roughly that 12 to 14 ft above the shooter, that I can walk up, so I don't need to guess, I can read it. If the ground says 8MPH which is generally does, the first deck is at least 10, the top deck is easily 14MPH...
I just get a bit skeptical of people who can "read" things 700 yards away 10ft in the air without a base line value, and if the flag is the only value what does mean when you have no flag, or how about in a desert or rocky mountain setting when there are no "trees, Leaves, or Grass"... spotting scopes might work, but only given time and opportunity, which isn't always the case. What you feel on you, wind meter or not is still your best guess, which would mean, wind at the shooter.
Re: Most Important wind
Use it all and know what you know. I agree with LL. The rest is an educated guess at best. I try to "see" the wind like water flowing. I can picture that. The flaw in that is air density changes causing it to suck and blow per say. Water doesn't change density. Over short distance, like 1000yards, I don't feel density changes effects it to much and viewing air flow like water can give a person a good view in their mind while watching mirage, dust, flags, smoke, grass, leaves, trees, terrain, ect....
Keep this thread going. I like the ones I learned something new to play with while out shooting.
Use it all and know what you know. I agree with LL. The rest is an educated guess at best. I try to "see" the wind like water flowing. I can picture that. The flaw in that is air density changes causing it to suck and blow per say. Water doesn't change density. Over short distance, like 1000yards, I don't feel density changes effects it to much and viewing air flow like water can give a person a good view in their mind while watching mirage, dust, flags, smoke, grass, leaves, trees, terrain, ect....
Keep this thread going. I like the ones I learned something new to play with while out shooting.
Re: Most Important wind
Agree 100% that a KD range with a bunch of flags, block time, and a fast target puller is a totally different animal than what you guys do. In a field situation I'll evaluate whatever I can that will give me an indication of what is going on during the flight of my bullet, then apply my grid method to that. Taking into account not only the indicators the terrain is giving you but also the terrain itself for sure counts on a field shot.
Maybe you get some pretty steady winds between you and the target at RO. That is a rare condition for me, even on KD ranges, particularly around here. Look at the terrain surrounding the NRAWC Tubb range and Buffalo Creek. Also at CRC the damned sound damping berms that break up the sides of the range. Camp Perry is another animal - often the most steady winds I shoot in all year during a stable atmospheric condition. Normally from one direction, pretty much the same the whole way down the range, watch one flag half way between you and the target on the upwind site for pickups, letoffs and angle changes. Pretty easy stuff.
We often shoot side/side in practice, pair fire, and talk about what we are seeing and our methods. Maybe we can hook up and try that some time at CRC - I'd like to hear how you are reading things and calling them. Come to CRC on 5/31 - I hope to have enough folks hang around and shoot a for fun team match after the Palma match.
Agree 100% that a KD range with a bunch of flags, block time, and a fast target puller is a totally different animal than what you guys do. In a field situation I'll evaluate whatever I can that will give me an indication of what is going on during the flight of my bullet, then apply my grid method to that. Taking into account not only the indicators the terrain is giving you but also the terrain itself for sure counts on a field shot.
Maybe you get some pretty steady winds between you and the target at RO. That is a rare condition for me, even on KD ranges, particularly around here. Look at the terrain surrounding the NRAWC Tubb range and Buffalo Creek. Also at CRC the damned sound damping berms that break up the sides of the range. Camp Perry is another animal - often the most steady winds I shoot in all year during a stable atmospheric condition. Normally from one direction, pretty much the same the whole way down the range, watch one flag half way between you and the target on the upwind site for pickups, letoffs and angle changes. Pretty easy stuff.
We often shoot side/side in practice, pair fire, and talk about what we are seeing and our methods. Maybe we can hook up and try that some time at CRC - I'd like to hear how you are reading things and calling them. Come to CRC on 5/31 - I hope to have enough folks hang around and shoot a for fun team match after the Palma match.
Re: Most Important wind
you forgot chickn bones and rabits foot
you forgot chickn bones and rabits foot
Re: Most Important wind
All,
There's perhaps more than one way to skin a cat. I learned from the USAMU that the mid range wind has the most effect on the bullet's flight, so that's the wind I'm making adjustments to counter. I figure that rather than experiment with my own notions of what might work, using knowledge from folks who clearly know how to get the job done is prudent. Since accepting the USAMU's knowledge, my MR, as well as LR bullseye shooting has improved, giving me confidence that the USAMU does indeed know what works.
Back in 2005, shooting an EIC match at Camp Atterberry, I shot a 99 and something rapid prone using my newly acquired wind and weather knowledge gleaned from the SDM curriculum. I did not know it at the time; but later, I discovered I was apparently among just a few that day who adjusted properly for the 300 yard wind. Since then I've stuck with the mid-range concept as it's never let me down. My point, use whatever notion you want for what you think will work, results will show if you or your mentors are actually knowledgable about it.
BTW, I think 9H knows something about wind, his credentials prove it. To disagree with his success is hard for me to understand.
All,
There's perhaps more than one way to skin a cat. I learned from the USAMU that the mid range wind has the most effect on the bullet's flight, so that's the wind I'm making adjustments to counter. I figure that rather than experiment with my own notions of what might work, using knowledge from folks who clearly know how to get the job done is prudent. Since accepting the USAMU's knowledge, my MR, as well as LR bullseye shooting has improved, giving me confidence that the USAMU does indeed know what works.
Back in 2005, shooting an EIC match at Camp Atterberry, I shot a 99 and something rapid prone using my newly acquired wind and weather knowledge gleaned from the SDM curriculum. I did not know it at the time; but later, I discovered I was apparently among just a few that day who adjusted properly for the 300 yard wind. Since then I've stuck with the mid-range concept as it's never let me down. My point, use whatever notion you want for what you think will work, results will show if you or your mentors are actually knowledgable about it.
BTW, I think 9H knows something about wind, his credentials prove it. To disagree with his success is hard for me to understand.
Re: Most Important wind
tag
tag
Re: Most Important wind
I've fired 300yd and beyond at Cherry Ridge, Bodines, and NRAWC Tubb Range. Each has unique wind patterns. When I manage to get some insight into the wind at those facilities, what I learn does not seem to have any relevence at other facilities. I thought NRAWC was easiest, Bodines was tricky, and Cherry Ridge was flatly diabolical.
I think what we're doing is emulating the three blind men describing the elephant. We are each the product of our experiences, and like it or not, those experiences are always more limited than we like, and nearly always too limited to base generalities upon.
I keep coming back to the garbage in, garbage out concept, combined with the knowledge that hit markers and computations are generally telling us things about stuff that is no longer likely to be current.
In the end, I think that if we want to be good in the wind, we gotta shoot in the wind as often as possible. Further, I think that what we learn has application mainly, mostly, maybe only, at the particular place where we're doing that shooting. We need to shoot at a lot of different places before we can start to see similarities between some of those places. I think that generalities... aren't so general.
At the most basic level, deflections that occur earlier in the trajectory get to act over a longer portion of the trajectory. But just as generally, as the projectile proceeds downrange, a sliding scale of consequences is also at work. A big force downrange can override a weaker one closer to the shooter. Winds aloft tend to be precisely those bigger forces, and can be equally invisible/transparent to the shooter.
In the end, it's a crapshoot. You can skull yourself into the X ring, and you can just as easily skull yourself right out of it.
Greg
I've fired 300yd and beyond at Cherry Ridge, Bodines, and NRAWC Tubb Range. Each has unique wind patterns. When I manage to get some insight into the wind at those facilities, what I learn does not seem to have any relevence at other facilities. I thought NRAWC was easiest, Bodines was tricky, and Cherry Ridge was flatly diabolical.
I think what we're doing is emulating the three blind men describing the elephant. We are each the product of our experiences, and like it or not, those experiences are always more limited than we like, and nearly always too limited to base generalities upon.
I keep coming back to the garbage in, garbage out concept, combined with the knowledge that hit markers and computations are generally telling us things about stuff that is no longer likely to be current.
In the end, I think that if we want to be good in the wind, we gotta shoot in the wind as often as possible. Further, I think that what we learn has application mainly, mostly, maybe only, at the particular place where we're doing that shooting. We need to shoot at a lot of different places before we can start to see similarities between some of those places. I think that generalities... aren't so general.
At the most basic level, deflections that occur earlier in the trajectory get to act over a longer portion of the trajectory. But just as generally, as the projectile proceeds downrange, a sliding scale of consequences is also at work. A big force downrange can override a weaker one closer to the shooter. Winds aloft tend to be precisely those bigger forces, and can be equally invisible/transparent to the shooter.
In the end, it's a crapshoot. You can skull yourself into the X ring, and you can just as easily skull yourself right out of it.
Greg
Re: Most Important wind
Sterling, no one is questioning his success, and I completely understand his method. However I do think his original explanation eluded to that "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, voodoo bullshit, where people read and see things that are relatively hard to see unless, you're on a range with flags going from 200 to 1000, as well as being able to have the time and opportunity to do so. (Not everyone understands mirage or knows how to see it)
Also, knowing what strong winds look like, trees, grass, flags, and mirage, once you get past a certain point, they become nearly impossible to use accurately. So, the method is limited in its use and scope and telling someone with no experience how you read something they barely know what too look for, gives it that implied voodoo method.
I agree, with a mid range max ord wind effects the wind, but the only wind a new shooter or any shooter for that matter can accurately read to within 1 MPH is the wind at the shooter, as it doesn't require Leo's level of experience on a firing line to understand, so there is no voodoo. It provides a solid base line for everything we do, and whether or not someone will acknowledge, the first indicator of wind is what "We" feel on our body, as your mind doesn't simply dismiss that information but uses it to its advantage. Because a 1 MPH wind at 1000 yards is a 10 inch deflection with a straight 175gr 308, so blowing it by 2MPH because you are trying to read something 700 yards away is difficult to explain to someone without the years of Leo's experience.
Questioning Leo as a shooter was never the point, questioning his explanation to be clearer to someone trying to learn was my point. I get it, and agree, but with a condition, I think heavier winds would be difficult to use his method with, especially without the peeking and eavesdropping. But after teaching yourself to do something over 10's or 1000's of rounds, when you get to that point, many things will work for you, but won't work for others, especially when they are starting out.
Sterling, no one is questioning his success, and I completely understand his method. However I do think his original explanation eluded to that "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, voodoo bullshit, where people read and see things that are relatively hard to see unless, you're on a range with flags going from 200 to 1000, as well as being able to have the time and opportunity to do so. (Not everyone understands mirage or knows how to see it)
Also, knowing what strong winds look like, trees, grass, flags, and mirage, once you get past a certain point, they become nearly impossible to use accurately. So, the method is limited in its use and scope and telling someone with no experience how you read something they barely know what too look for, gives it that implied voodoo method.
I agree, with a mid range max ord wind effects the wind, but the only wind a new shooter or any shooter for that matter can accurately read to within 1 MPH is the wind at the shooter, as it doesn't require Leo's level of experience on a firing line to understand, so there is no voodoo. It provides a solid base line for everything we do, and whether or not someone will acknowledge, the first indicator of wind is what "We" feel on our body, as your mind doesn't simply dismiss that information but uses it to its advantage. Because a 1 MPH wind at 1000 yards is a 10 inch deflection with a straight 175gr 308, so blowing it by 2MPH because you are trying to read something 700 yards away is difficult to explain to someone without the years of Leo's experience.
Questioning Leo as a shooter was never the point, questioning his explanation to be clearer to someone trying to learn was my point. I get it, and agree, but with a condition, I think heavier winds would be difficult to use his method with, especially without the peeking and eavesdropping. But after teaching yourself to do something over 10's or 1000's of rounds, when you get to that point, many things will work for you, but won't work for others, especially when they are starting out.
Re: Most Important wind
"Questioning Leo as a shooter was never the point, questioning his explanation to be clearer to someone trying to learn was my point". I took it as you intended LL and got a chuckle out of you homing in on my occasionally looking at other people's wind meters. Generally when I see someone waving a windmeter around I get a grin and say to myself, "they just don't get it" when it comes to reading the wind. It can be AN indicator, but the least important one IMO. A static value like that can come in handy though in certain conditions.
From a tower with a somewhat steady wind between you and the target at sea level surrounded by sand flats I would consider the wind reading at the firing point a very good indicator of downrange wind effect of the bullet. A steady wind negates most of the need for my grid method. A steady wind also works well with the "one flag' method.
"Questioning Leo as a shooter was never the point, questioning his explanation to be clearer to someone trying to learn was my point". I took it as you intended LL and got a chuckle out of you homing in on my occasionally looking at other people's wind meters. Generally when I see someone waving a windmeter around I get a grin and say to myself, "they just don't get it" when it comes to reading the wind. It can be AN indicator, but the least important one IMO. A static value like that can come in handy though in certain conditions.
From a tower with a somewhat steady wind between you and the target at sea level surrounded by sand flats I would consider the wind reading at the firing point a very good indicator of downrange wind effect of the bullet. A steady wind negates most of the need for my grid method. A steady wind also works well with the "one flag' method.
Re: Most Important wind
The wind is not steady, just constantly present. Ask the guys that shoot our matches, we can go from 16 to 24 MPH gusts... one match the gust were 36MPH during the competition.
It gusts, flows and ebbs, its not a "Steady" 10MPH, it just an average, every present wind.
The wind is not steady, just constantly present. Ask the guys that shoot our matches, we can go from 16 to 24 MPH gusts... one match the gust were 36MPH during the competition.
It gusts, flows and ebbs, its not a "Steady" 10MPH, it just an average, every present wind.
Re: Most Important wind
Not that anyone would want to know MHO, but RO's wind is a constant as Frank says, and is about as constant as anywhere I have shot.
RO is easier to shoot than Camp Perry. Camp Perry is easier to shoot than Butner. Butner is easier to shoot than Oak Ridge. All of them are HARD.
Raton I cannot come up with a comparison for. Badlands has some of the strangest winds. Tac-Pro has a constant like RO. Hardrock has 4 direction winds most of the time.
Go to them all if you can.
All of them have their own charactistics, unique to the range and terrain. All flat ranges ARE NOT equal, re-read Greg's post. All have their own peculiarities.
At Perry, you need to be in the middle of the line to get the best wind.
The left side SUCKS.
At Oak Ridge, both sides SUCK, the middle is the safest, same with Butner.
The worst mistake anyone can make is to only shoot one range and think they have it figured out. The different range you then go to eats you for all three meals and snacks.
When I go to Perry, I do what 9Hotel does, I sit and watch.
The wind is slow and lazy at daybreak. By relay 1, the wind is totally different and intermediate. By relay 3, the wind is getting up to tornado speed. By relay 5, it's a switching tornado, and like One Small (Ken) Johnson says, you really have to watch the 11-1 switches, you can go from a X-10 to a 7 real quick.
At Perry, I see the bullet take that mentioned turn just past the arc, but I also see the it leaning with the wind up to the arc. Watching someone shoot a 243 with a 115 at 3000 plus FPS is like watching a laser compared to watching a 175 grain 308 at 2600.
I've learned a lot more by watching others shoot in the wind and by coaching than I have on my own, shooting and trying to get it all (fundamentals and wind reading) down in one action.
Maybe some of you try this. Set up behind a good wind shooter. Listen to what he/she (like Ken's wife) says, and compare it to what you think you see. See where your call would go versus theirs. It's a great learning experience and cheaper than wasting high dollar bullets with nothing to gauge by.
Reading wind, anything you do, watching, listening, and asking questions is a plus, then go shoot and try what you heard and thought. JMHO.
Not that anyone would want to know MHO, but RO's wind is a constant as Frank says, and is about as constant as anywhere I have shot.
RO is easier to shoot than Camp Perry. Camp Perry is easier to shoot than Butner. Butner is easier to shoot than Oak Ridge. All of them are HARD.
Raton I cannot come up with a comparison for. Badlands has some of the strangest winds. Tac-Pro has a constant like RO. Hardrock has 4 direction winds most of the time.
Go to them all if you can.
All of them have their own charactistics, unique to the range and terrain. All flat ranges ARE NOT equal, re-read Greg's post. All have their own peculiarities.
At Perry, you need to be in the middle of the line to get the best wind.
The left side SUCKS.
At Oak Ridge, both sides SUCK, the middle is the safest, same with Butner.
The worst mistake anyone can make is to only shoot one range and think they have it figured out. The different range you then go to eats you for all three meals and snacks.
When I go to Perry, I do what 9Hotel does, I sit and watch.
The wind is slow and lazy at daybreak. By relay 1, the wind is totally different and intermediate. By relay 3, the wind is getting up to tornado speed. By relay 5, it's a switching tornado, and like One Small (Ken) Johnson says, you really have to watch the 11-1 switches, you can go from a X-10 to a 7 real quick.
At Perry, I see the bullet take that mentioned turn just past the arc, but I also see the it leaning with the wind up to the arc. Watching someone shoot a 243 with a 115 at 3000 plus FPS is like watching a laser compared to watching a 175 grain 308 at 2600.
I've learned a lot more by watching others shoot in the wind and by coaching than I have on my own, shooting and trying to get it all (fundamentals and wind reading) down in one action.
Maybe some of you try this. Set up behind a good wind shooter. Listen to what he/she (like Ken's wife) says, and compare it to what you think you see. See where your call would go versus theirs. It's a great learning experience and cheaper than wasting high dollar bullets with nothing to gauge by.
Reading wind, anything you do, watching, listening, and asking questions is a plus, then go shoot and try what you heard and thought. JMHO.
Re: Most Important wind
We're shooting tonight, I will have some time to shoot the wind stuff today.
I like shooting other places as well, I have shot, Tac Pro, Badlands, Storm Mountain, Thunder Ranch Oregon, ASC, Cherry Ridge, Raton (front and backside) as well as Byers - CRC and Golden in CO, among a few others around the world, so its a pretty good mix and agree, different terrains and ranges require slightly different approaches to succeed. Time and opportunity should always be taken advantage of when given the opportunity and you're never wasting time studying the wind conditions at any of the places we shoot.
Thunder Ranch in Oregon is nice because we usually get some snow, and it gives you a visual of what the wind is doing. At the end of a long shot I have seen it blow a 168gr up in the air 25 yards over a target. So its fun to watch the trace and that stuff. Field Course interest me more so than ranges, but that doesn't take anything away from ranges as its all constantly moving.
We're shooting tonight, I will have some time to shoot the wind stuff today.
I like shooting other places as well, I have shot, Tac Pro, Badlands, Storm Mountain, Thunder Ranch Oregon, ASC, Cherry Ridge, Raton (front and backside) as well as Byers - CRC and Golden in CO, among a few others around the world, so its a pretty good mix and agree, different terrains and ranges require slightly different approaches to succeed. Time and opportunity should always be taken advantage of when given the opportunity and you're never wasting time studying the wind conditions at any of the places we shoot.
Thunder Ranch in Oregon is nice because we usually get some snow, and it gives you a visual of what the wind is doing. At the end of a long shot I have seen it blow a 168gr up in the air 25 yards over a target. So its fun to watch the trace and that stuff. Field Course interest me more so than ranges, but that doesn't take anything away from ranges as its all constantly moving.
Re: Most Important wind
Really gleaned some excellent info from this thread!
Being a relatively green shooter, I don't have much to add to the knowledge base here. But I can share that I spend a good bit of time out on the water and feel that I have a somewhat better grasp of reading/calling wind because of it. Not only in speed, but how it 'ebbs and flows' over broken terrain...
The AO where I shoot often is hilly farm country where shooting 1,000yds requires my bullet to travel across some type of valley before reaching target. The sloping lateral hillsides pose an equal challenge. Often, the wind at my postion can be felt and called with a fair degree of regularity. But it is grasping the understanding of how the wind flows down into & out of the valleys and across the sloping hillsides that are the greatest challenge to me...
Again, just from a greenhorn's perspective, I've found it most effective for me to make that initial wind call from my position. Then focus the objective out to the target and back, taking note of grass, trees, mirage, etc. to tweak my intial wind call. Don't have any wind flags. It is amazing how a seemingly consistent mid range wind (determined via mirage or flora) will suddenly 'ebb' and run the the complete opposite direction. Before sending one, I'll remember the present conditions and their cumulative effect on my bullet's impact and adjust my dope accordingly. Then naturally, wait for similiar conditions and send the next one...
All this said to hopefully tie into the focus of this thread. That being that in the broken terrrain where I shoot, the wind at the shooter is the least difficult call. It is the mid and longe range 'ebbs and flows' that will eat a shooter (me) alive, if not taken into consideration...
Great thread fellas. Thanks for you knowledge...
Really gleaned some excellent info from this thread!
Being a relatively green shooter, I don't have much to add to the knowledge base here. But I can share that I spend a good bit of time out on the water and feel that I have a somewhat better grasp of reading/calling wind because of it. Not only in speed, but how it 'ebbs and flows' over broken terrain...
The AO where I shoot often is hilly farm country where shooting 1,000yds requires my bullet to travel across some type of valley before reaching target. The sloping lateral hillsides pose an equal challenge. Often, the wind at my postion can be felt and called with a fair degree of regularity. But it is grasping the understanding of how the wind flows down into & out of the valleys and across the sloping hillsides that are the greatest challenge to me...
Again, just from a greenhorn's perspective, I've found it most effective for me to make that initial wind call from my position. Then focus the objective out to the target and back, taking note of grass, trees, mirage, etc. to tweak my intial wind call. Don't have any wind flags. It is amazing how a seemingly consistent mid range wind (determined via mirage or flora) will suddenly 'ebb' and run the the complete opposite direction. Before sending one, I'll remember the present conditions and their cumulative effect on my bullet's impact and adjust my dope accordingly. Then naturally, wait for similiar conditions and send the next one...
All this said to hopefully tie into the focus of this thread. That being that in the broken terrrain where I shoot, the wind at the shooter is the least difficult call. It is the mid and longe range 'ebbs and flows' that will eat a shooter (me) alive, if not taken into consideration...
Great thread fellas. Thanks for you knowledge...
Re: Most Important wind
I might throw this wrench in the works...
You'll see the arc change in the projectile @ max ord, likely because it's most easy to SEE the bullet @ max ord, and not when it's coming out of the muzzle. Show me a guy who can reliably spot bullet exit @ muzzle and in the first 100 yards, I'll show you the bionic man. Remember: The bullet is literally hanging in the air. It can't fight wind any more than a balloon can fight wind. It's all about time to target. How long is the bullet hanging in the air? A 5 mph change @ muzzle would have a much greater effect on target than a 5 mph change @ max ord. Is there more wind up there @ max ord? Could be, but it depends on the day. I think what Mid and the AMU guys would would say would be to watch what happens at max ord and pay attention to it. However, it ain't the whole story.
When you get to the range, you've got to analyse what's going on, and where you'll gain the greatest advantage. It's simple, but by no means easy. You've got to pay absolute most attention to the wind @ the shooter, and the mirage down range (middle range too). Find patterns, find consistencies. Plan, execute and prepare for the wheels to fall off. Adapt, regroup and do it again. You've got to do it better than everyone else out there. That's how you win.
Here's another one: Anybody ever heard of the left-hand rule? If you have, you know a great deal more about wind than the other folks....
I might throw this wrench in the works...
You'll see the arc change in the projectile @ max ord, likely because it's most easy to SEE the bullet @ max ord, and not when it's coming out of the muzzle. Show me a guy who can reliably spot bullet exit @ muzzle and in the first 100 yards, I'll show you the bionic man. Remember: The bullet is literally hanging in the air. It can't fight wind any more than a balloon can fight wind. It's all about time to target. How long is the bullet hanging in the air? A 5 mph change @ muzzle would have a much greater effect on target than a 5 mph change @ max ord. Is there more wind up there @ max ord? Could be, but it depends on the day. I think what Mid and the AMU guys would would say would be to watch what happens at max ord and pay attention to it. However, it ain't the whole story.
When you get to the range, you've got to analyse what's going on, and where you'll gain the greatest advantage. It's simple, but by no means easy. You've got to pay absolute most attention to the wind @ the shooter, and the mirage down range (middle range too). Find patterns, find consistencies. Plan, execute and prepare for the wheels to fall off. Adapt, regroup and do it again. You've got to do it better than everyone else out there. That's how you win.
Here's another one: Anybody ever heard of the left-hand rule? If you have, you know a great deal more about wind than the other folks....
Re: Most Important wind
I don't know much about reading the wind but I've read alot of post on alot of treads have on the Hide. There are about (5) people posting on this thread that I would fell safe to get out there and try exactly want there tell you to try and see what work best for you.
I don't know much about reading the wind but I've read alot of post on alot of treads have on the Hide. There are about (5) people posting on this thread that I would fell safe to get out there and try exactly want there tell you to try and see what work best for you.
Re: Most Important wind
What is the left hand rule ?
What is the left hand rule ?
Re: Most Important wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that anyone would want to know MHO, but RO's wind is a constant as Frank says, and is about as constant as anywhere I have shot.
RO is easier to shoot than Camp Perry. Camp Perry is easier to shoot than Butner. Butner is easier to shoot than Oak Ridge. All of them are HARD.
Raton I cannot come up with a comparison for. Badlands has some of the strangest winds. Tac-Pro has a constant like RO. Hardrock has 4 direction winds most of the time.
Go to them all if you can.
All of them have their own charactistics, unique to the range and terrain. All flat ranges ARE NOT equal, re-read Greg's post. All have their own peculiarities.
At Perry, you need to be in the middle of the line to get the best wind.
The left side SUCKS.
At Oak Ridge, both sides SUCK, the middle is the safest, same with Butner.
The worst mistake anyone can make is to only shoot one range and think they have it figured out. The different range you then go to eats you for all three meals and snacks.
When I go to Perry, I do what 9Hotel does, I sit and watch.
The wind is slow and lazy at daybreak. By relay 1, the wind is totally different and intermediate. By relay 3, the wind is getting up to tornado speed. By relay 5, it's a switching tornado, and like One Small (Ken) Johnson says, you really have to watch the 11-1 switches, you can go from a X-10 to a 7 real quick.
At Perry, I see the bullet take that mentioned turn just past the arc, but I also see the it leaning with the wind up to the arc. Watching someone shoot a 243 with a 115 at 3000 plus FPS is like watching a laser compared to watching a 175 grain 308 at 2600.
I've learned a lot more by watching others shoot in the wind and by coaching than I have on my own, shooting and trying to get it all (fundamentals and wind reading) down in one action.
Maybe some of you try this. Set up behind a good wind shooter. Listen to what he/she (like Ken's wife) says, and compare it to what you think you see. See where your call would go versus theirs. It's a great learning experience and cheaper than wasting high dollar bullets with nothing to gauge by.
Reading wind, anything you do, watching, listening, and asking questions is a plus, then go shoot and try what you heard and thought. JMHO. </div></div>
Very interesting, I like the low end at Oakridge. I like the high end at Atterberry, and, at Ft. Knox, I like the middle. I like the middle at Ft. Knox since there's some extra space between target 5 and 6, which helps me find target 5. It's the one I try to claim to help preclude cross fires.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that anyone would want to know MHO, but RO's wind is a constant as Frank says, and is about as constant as anywhere I have shot.
RO is easier to shoot than Camp Perry. Camp Perry is easier to shoot than Butner. Butner is easier to shoot than Oak Ridge. All of them are HARD.
Raton I cannot come up with a comparison for. Badlands has some of the strangest winds. Tac-Pro has a constant like RO. Hardrock has 4 direction winds most of the time.
Go to them all if you can.
All of them have their own charactistics, unique to the range and terrain. All flat ranges ARE NOT equal, re-read Greg's post. All have their own peculiarities.
At Perry, you need to be in the middle of the line to get the best wind.
The left side SUCKS.
At Oak Ridge, both sides SUCK, the middle is the safest, same with Butner.
The worst mistake anyone can make is to only shoot one range and think they have it figured out. The different range you then go to eats you for all three meals and snacks.
When I go to Perry, I do what 9Hotel does, I sit and watch.
The wind is slow and lazy at daybreak. By relay 1, the wind is totally different and intermediate. By relay 3, the wind is getting up to tornado speed. By relay 5, it's a switching tornado, and like One Small (Ken) Johnson says, you really have to watch the 11-1 switches, you can go from a X-10 to a 7 real quick.
At Perry, I see the bullet take that mentioned turn just past the arc, but I also see the it leaning with the wind up to the arc. Watching someone shoot a 243 with a 115 at 3000 plus FPS is like watching a laser compared to watching a 175 grain 308 at 2600.
I've learned a lot more by watching others shoot in the wind and by coaching than I have on my own, shooting and trying to get it all (fundamentals and wind reading) down in one action.
Maybe some of you try this. Set up behind a good wind shooter. Listen to what he/she (like Ken's wife) says, and compare it to what you think you see. See where your call would go versus theirs. It's a great learning experience and cheaper than wasting high dollar bullets with nothing to gauge by.
Reading wind, anything you do, watching, listening, and asking questions is a plus, then go shoot and try what you heard and thought. JMHO. </div></div>
Very interesting, I like the low end at Oakridge. I like the high end at Atterberry, and, at Ft. Knox, I like the middle. I like the middle at Ft. Knox since there's some extra space between target 5 and 6, which helps me find target 5. It's the one I try to claim to help preclude cross fires.
Re: Most Important wind
thanks for the info fellas - many are watching this thread for clues on the great mysterious moderator known as - wind.
thanks for the info fellas - many are watching this thread for clues on the great mysterious moderator known as - wind.
Re: Most Important wind
Okay I uploaded the video I shot at Lunch yesterday. It was a pretty typical wind here at RO and you can see the changes from the ground to 24 ft. It doesn't help you in any way understand the wind, its merely something I did to show it's changes... cause it changes a lot.
Personally the only reason I think it could be considered "easier" as JW put it is because we mainly shoot steel here and not a paper package as I think if someone was required to shoot a standard competition the level of difficulty would go up. In the video I sat for 2 minutes straight and the wind went from 25MPH to 3MPH back to 10, then settled around 12MPH. So the changes come at you hard and fast.
So again, nothing more than a visual simply because I can.
Okay I uploaded the video I shot at Lunch yesterday. It was a pretty typical wind here at RO and you can see the changes from the ground to 24 ft. It doesn't help you in any way understand the wind, its merely something I did to show it's changes... cause it changes a lot.
Personally the only reason I think it could be considered "easier" as JW put it is because we mainly shoot steel here and not a paper package as I think if someone was required to shoot a standard competition the level of difficulty would go up. In the video I sat for 2 minutes straight and the wind went from 25MPH to 3MPH back to 10, then settled around 12MPH. So the changes come at you hard and fast.
So again, nothing more than a visual simply because I can.
Re: Most Important wind
At some 1Kyd Bodines Matches, I've had opportunity to observe some really clear trace, and the trajectory in a crosswind seems to be an arc that's tilted into the wind. It climbs and angles into the wind, then descends and drops swinging back downwind to the target.
It seems almost as if the whole thing is tilted slightly off vertical, relative to the wind, and I've often wondered whether the simplest solution would be to cant the rifle into the wind, and keep my hold centered on the bull.
Kinda unorthodox, but maybe once one gets past the orthodoxy, it might even seem kinda intuitive. Worth a try, I think, but figuring out how to regulate things appropriately might get kinda tricky, I suppose...
If it 'worked', logically, the main difference would be a POI that was a tad low, and holding slightly above the X might make up for that.
Ignore me, I'm in 'outside the box' mode again...
Greg
At some 1Kyd Bodines Matches, I've had opportunity to observe some really clear trace, and the trajectory in a crosswind seems to be an arc that's tilted into the wind. It climbs and angles into the wind, then descends and drops swinging back downwind to the target.
It seems almost as if the whole thing is tilted slightly off vertical, relative to the wind, and I've often wondered whether the simplest solution would be to cant the rifle into the wind, and keep my hold centered on the bull.
Kinda unorthodox, but maybe once one gets past the orthodoxy, it might even seem kinda intuitive. Worth a try, I think, but figuring out how to regulate things appropriately might get kinda tricky, I suppose...
If it 'worked', logically, the main difference would be a POI that was a tad low, and holding slightly above the X might make up for that.
Ignore me, I'm in 'outside the box' mode again...
Greg
Re: Most Important wind
.
.
Re: Most Important wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kinda unorthodox, but maybe once one gets past the orthodoxy, it might even seem kinda intuitive.</div></div>
Greg,
That reminds me of an Arthur Schopenhauer quote:
"All truth passes thru three stages. First is is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, finally it is accepted as being self-evident".
This thread reminded me of a simulation I set up a while ago to study the effects of wind gradient. It's a 6-DOF representation of the .30 cal 175 grain SMK at a MV of 2800 fps zeroed for 1000 yards in standard conditions. The following plots show the bullet's trajectory from the shooters point of view as it arcs up to just over 10 feet, then down to the target.
There are 3 traces on each plot for 3 wind conditions.
1. Blue is zero wind. The model predicts about 9.8" of spin drift in this case.
2. The red trace is the bullet deflection in a constant 10 mph crosswind.
3. The black trace shows how the bullet is deflected for a wind that starts at zero in the grass, and grows in speed by 1 mph for every foot above the ground. So at the bullets apogee, the wind is just over 10 mph.
This first plot shows the uncorrected trajectories for all 3 cases:
The zero wind trajectory has 9.8" of deflection (spin drift)
The constant wind trajectory has 108.5" of deflection total (wind + SD)
The variable wind trajectory has 82.3" of deflection total (wind + SD)
This second plot shows the corrected trajectories for the 3 cases. You can see the trajectory 'lean' into the wind as described in previous posts.
This isn't presented to argue or conflict any of the observations made above, just some graphical insight into the effects of a wind gradient.
I find it interesting that the wind gradient case results in so much wind deflection (~80% of the constant wind) even though the bullet is exposed to less than 10 mph crosswind for much of it's trajectory.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kinda unorthodox, but maybe once one gets past the orthodoxy, it might even seem kinda intuitive.</div></div>
Greg,
That reminds me of an Arthur Schopenhauer quote:
"All truth passes thru three stages. First is is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, finally it is accepted as being self-evident".
This thread reminded me of a simulation I set up a while ago to study the effects of wind gradient. It's a 6-DOF representation of the .30 cal 175 grain SMK at a MV of 2800 fps zeroed for 1000 yards in standard conditions. The following plots show the bullet's trajectory from the shooters point of view as it arcs up to just over 10 feet, then down to the target.
There are 3 traces on each plot for 3 wind conditions.
1. Blue is zero wind. The model predicts about 9.8" of spin drift in this case.
2. The red trace is the bullet deflection in a constant 10 mph crosswind.
3. The black trace shows how the bullet is deflected for a wind that starts at zero in the grass, and grows in speed by 1 mph for every foot above the ground. So at the bullets apogee, the wind is just over 10 mph.
This first plot shows the uncorrected trajectories for all 3 cases:
The zero wind trajectory has 9.8" of deflection (spin drift)
The constant wind trajectory has 108.5" of deflection total (wind + SD)
The variable wind trajectory has 82.3" of deflection total (wind + SD)
This second plot shows the corrected trajectories for the 3 cases. You can see the trajectory 'lean' into the wind as described in previous posts.
This isn't presented to argue or conflict any of the observations made above, just some graphical insight into the effects of a wind gradient.
I find it interesting that the wind gradient case results in so much wind deflection (~80% of the constant wind) even though the bullet is exposed to less than 10 mph crosswind for much of it's trajectory.
Re: Most Important wind
Guys - this was just posted in another thread here but clearly illustrates what I'm talking about re: at least the peak height of the bullet at 600 yds versus say 800 yards. At 600, the peak is approx. the height of the target steel itself. At 825, the peak is over 3 times that, just for a 225 yard increase in distance. 1k is way more dramatic than that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpLAqI1vnZ0
Guys - this was just posted in another thread here but clearly illustrates what I'm talking about re: at least the peak height of the bullet at 600 yds versus say 800 yards. At 600, the peak is approx. the height of the target steel itself. At 825, the peak is over 3 times that, just for a 225 yard increase in distance. 1k is way more dramatic than that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpLAqI1vnZ0
Re: Most Important wind
Bryan, great stuff as usual
Do you have a plot or a calculation system to "weight" the importance of variable winds at the target? Say target at 1000 yds, and a 10 mph 0-300 wind effect at 1000 yds vs same wind in the 700-1000 sector?
Bryan, great stuff as usual
Do you have a plot or a calculation system to "weight" the importance of variable winds at the target? Say target at 1000 yds, and a 10 mph 0-300 wind effect at 1000 yds vs same wind in the 700-1000 sector?
Re: Most Important wind
I think the system we use for reading the wind comes with a lot of experience an the kind of shooting that you do.
BR an highpower shooters will tend to read further down range becasuse they have multiple aids to use. On the other hand tactical an field shooters tend to read the wind more where they are because many times they may have no aids to use or they may be shooting across a valley or draws that tend to change the wind direction on them.
I don't honestly beleive anyone of us is either right or wrong. Many times a BR or highpower shooter will get multiple sighters where a sniper or tactical shooter doesn't. You either hit it or its a miss.
The important thing is to get out an shoot an learn to read the mirage an "TRY" to be aware of any changes that happen just before you pull the trigger an send it.
There are many times when I get stung because I don't pay attention to a wind shift because I get to invloved in banging steel an don't pick up a wind shift until I start missing only to realize the wind has went from 1/4 to 1/2 or full value in the blink of an eye.
I don't think any of you new shooters can go wrong with whatever way you pick to read the wind as long as you get out an shoot a lot in the wind to gain experience doing it.
You will find one of these methods that will work best for you an all that is important is not how you read, or where you read it, but that you do an get the round on target. Great discussion by the way!!!!!
I think the system we use for reading the wind comes with a lot of experience an the kind of shooting that you do.
BR an highpower shooters will tend to read further down range becasuse they have multiple aids to use. On the other hand tactical an field shooters tend to read the wind more where they are because many times they may have no aids to use or they may be shooting across a valley or draws that tend to change the wind direction on them.
I don't honestly beleive anyone of us is either right or wrong. Many times a BR or highpower shooter will get multiple sighters where a sniper or tactical shooter doesn't. You either hit it or its a miss.
The important thing is to get out an shoot an learn to read the mirage an "TRY" to be aware of any changes that happen just before you pull the trigger an send it.
There are many times when I get stung because I don't pay attention to a wind shift because I get to invloved in banging steel an don't pick up a wind shift until I start missing only to realize the wind has went from 1/4 to 1/2 or full value in the blink of an eye.
I don't think any of you new shooters can go wrong with whatever way you pick to read the wind as long as you get out an shoot a lot in the wind to gain experience doing it.
You will find one of these methods that will work best for you an all that is important is not how you read, or where you read it, but that you do an get the round on target. Great discussion by the way!!!!!
Re: Most Important wind
An interested reader of this thread recently shot me an email asking some 'simple questions' about my wind reading strategy. I might as well throw them in the smorgasbord here since I typed it up. Take it for what it's worth, just another humble LR shooters perspective.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Simple question #1 - do you place any stock in the idea that the bullet, at its peak when shooting at 800 yards on out, due to its decaying velocity, decaying BC, and height above ground is heavily effected by wind at that point in its flight?</span>
The book answer is that the wind nearest the shooter is most important. But the real world doesn't always read that book. In reality, I think that most real ranges will have terrain that determines where the strongest wind currents will be (where downrange and how far above the ground), and that terrain turns out to be the deciding factor.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Simple question #2 - do you buy into the "grid method" of looking at the path of the bullet and what wind it is flying thru on its way to the target?</span>
The method I buy into for dealing with the wind is flexible adaptability. Don't lock into one way of doing things. Instead, concentrate on the cause/effect relationship of as many indicators as you can until you identify one that correlates to the target. Hopefully you can do this during the sighter period. The indicator may be on the firing line, at the target, half-way between, high, low, etc. Once you've identified a truthful indicator for a particular condition, you're good to go in that condition, but watch for changes and be ready to reassess your indicators and go to a new one if necessary.
Note these comments are specific to target shooting matches where sighters are allowed and spotters are used so you can see feedback. Shooting contests that don't have sighters or feedback are MUCH more challenging to learn from.
Take care,
-Bryan
An interested reader of this thread recently shot me an email asking some 'simple questions' about my wind reading strategy. I might as well throw them in the smorgasbord here since I typed it up. Take it for what it's worth, just another humble LR shooters perspective.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Simple question #1 - do you place any stock in the idea that the bullet, at its peak when shooting at 800 yards on out, due to its decaying velocity, decaying BC, and height above ground is heavily effected by wind at that point in its flight?</span>
The book answer is that the wind nearest the shooter is most important. But the real world doesn't always read that book. In reality, I think that most real ranges will have terrain that determines where the strongest wind currents will be (where downrange and how far above the ground), and that terrain turns out to be the deciding factor.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Simple question #2 - do you buy into the "grid method" of looking at the path of the bullet and what wind it is flying thru on its way to the target?</span>
The method I buy into for dealing with the wind is flexible adaptability. Don't lock into one way of doing things. Instead, concentrate on the cause/effect relationship of as many indicators as you can until you identify one that correlates to the target. Hopefully you can do this during the sighter period. The indicator may be on the firing line, at the target, half-way between, high, low, etc. Once you've identified a truthful indicator for a particular condition, you're good to go in that condition, but watch for changes and be ready to reassess your indicators and go to a new one if necessary.
Note these comments are specific to target shooting matches where sighters are allowed and spotters are used so you can see feedback. Shooting contests that don't have sighters or feedback are MUCH more challenging to learn from.
Take care,
-Bryan
Re: Most Important wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have a plot or a calculation system to "weight" the importance of variable winds at the target? Say target at 1000 yds, and a 10 mph 0-300 wind effect at 1000 yds vs same wind in the 700-1000 sector?</div></div>
I ran the cases you described, plots below.
To re-iterate the simulation parameters:
.308 caliber 175 SMK
2800 fps MV
Standard ICAO atmosphere
1:12" twist
elevation zeroed at 1000 yards
no windage correction
Blue trajectory is no wind
Red trajectory is 10 mph constant crosswind from 0 to 300 yards
Black trajectory is 10 mph constant crosswind from 700 to 1000 yards
This first plot is from the same point of view as the previous ones, showing the bullets trajectory from the shooters point of view. Note the black line follows the no-wind line till 700 yards where the 10 mph crosswind is 'turned on'.
The red line shows deflection in the first 300 yards, then the bullet spends the remaining 700 yards on the 'deviated path'.
This next plot shows the action from a birds-eye-view. Again, the black line follows no wind till 700 yards, then it peels off. The red line is practically straight from 300 to 1000.
Remember, these images represent what happens in the sterile environment of my computer simulation where I can program in these textbook winds. It's useful for academic purposes to illustrate how wind works. However, in the real world, the wind is much more chaotic than is represented in the model, and the conclusions aren't always as well defined as the model suggests.
-Bryan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have a plot or a calculation system to "weight" the importance of variable winds at the target? Say target at 1000 yds, and a 10 mph 0-300 wind effect at 1000 yds vs same wind in the 700-1000 sector?</div></div>
I ran the cases you described, plots below.
To re-iterate the simulation parameters:
.308 caliber 175 SMK
2800 fps MV
Standard ICAO atmosphere
1:12" twist
elevation zeroed at 1000 yards
no windage correction
Blue trajectory is no wind
Red trajectory is 10 mph constant crosswind from 0 to 300 yards
Black trajectory is 10 mph constant crosswind from 700 to 1000 yards
This first plot is from the same point of view as the previous ones, showing the bullets trajectory from the shooters point of view. Note the black line follows the no-wind line till 700 yards where the 10 mph crosswind is 'turned on'.
The red line shows deflection in the first 300 yards, then the bullet spends the remaining 700 yards on the 'deviated path'.
This next plot shows the action from a birds-eye-view. Again, the black line follows no wind till 700 yards, then it peels off. The red line is practically straight from 300 to 1000.
Remember, these images represent what happens in the sterile environment of my computer simulation where I can program in these textbook winds. It's useful for academic purposes to illustrate how wind works. However, in the real world, the wind is much more chaotic than is represented in the model, and the conclusions aren't always as well defined as the model suggests.
-Bryan
Re: Most Important wind
Bryan: It appears from the graph of the wind of 10 mph from zero to 300 yards that your simulation calculates that a lateral deflection, once induced, continues unabated downwind. Is that really the case? Is it not true that once the wind disappears, the lateral velocity will start to decrease as the bullet continues downrange?
Bryan: It appears from the graph of the wind of 10 mph from zero to 300 yards that your simulation calculates that a lateral deflection, once induced, continues unabated downwind. Is that really the case? Is it not true that once the wind disappears, the lateral velocity will start to decrease as the bullet continues downrange?
Re: Most Important wind
Lindy,
Yes. Once the bullet has changed direction, it will continue on that path until acted on by an outside force (according to Newton, anyway
)
I know what your thinking, that the bullet has some lateral velocity, and in the absence of wind, the lateral velocity should decay just like forward velocity. That's sort of a confusing way to thing about it though. Think instead of the bullet as having changed directions. The wind put it on a different course. When the wind stops, the bullet continues on that altered course.
-Bryan
Lindy,
Yes. Once the bullet has changed direction, it will continue on that path until acted on by an outside force (according to Newton, anyway
)I know what your thinking, that the bullet has some lateral velocity, and in the absence of wind, the lateral velocity should decay just like forward velocity. That's sort of a confusing way to thing about it though. Think instead of the bullet as having changed directions. The wind put it on a different course. When the wind stops, the bullet continues on that altered course.
-Bryan
Re: Most Important wind
Great info Brian!! This more or less confirms what I have found to be true in my years of shooting.
All most all of my shooting has been field or tactical type shooting so I more or less had to learn about wind from reading an trying different things to see what really did work for me.
Great info Brian!! This more or less confirms what I have found to be true in my years of shooting.
All most all of my shooting has been field or tactical type shooting so I more or less had to learn about wind from reading an trying different things to see what really did work for me.
