Advanced Marksmanship Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

[natesfitness]

Today I brought out my new Savage 10FP in 308 to play with the snipershide tactical targets at 100yards. I got my scope sighted in for 100 yards dead nuts right off the bench. I moved to shoot prone and I was 1-2 inches low on all my shots, I went back to the bench and again was dead on. I'm guessing it has something to do with my natural point of aim??? I'm shooting off a 6-9 Bipod and its a little high of the bench and a little low from a prone position (I didn't adjust the legs)

Why am I shooting low when I move to prone?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

a zero in one position is not a zero in another position...
you change position, you've changed something..doesnt work.
memorize or record differences in zero for your various positions

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Thank you for the post. I am going to the range this friday to apply what I have been practicing from the online class here on the Hide. gonna be my first time shooting prone, and this is something really helpful for me as well.

Dyl..

 

[ewoaf]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

its always a god idea to sight in using the same position you intend on using for whatever you do, ie hunting, matches, whatever.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Yup you need some practice at keeping all your physical influences the same. Also make sure you are looking the same way through the scope and there is no shading in the sight picture when prone. Sometimes people's necks can't get in a good prone position to look through the scope. I can shoot prone, bench or any position and my zero doesn't change. Just takes some practice.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

could be anything from cheeckweld / eye alignment, to grip / trigger squeeze being in a different spot, to where you shoulder. like the other guys said, practice and zero from where your usually going to shoot from.

 

[natesfitness]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

thanks for the replies, it has to be my cheek positioning and I find it a little uncomfortable to shoot from prone since most of my shooting is from the bench. Practice makes perfect I guess

 

[Rob01]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Yes practice will get you to where there will be no change. Just from you saying it's uncomfortable I can tell it's something you are doing to the rifle. Practice using the basics check list(cheek weld, NPA, grip, sight picture, butt snug in shoulder etc) before the shot and you will find that the change from going from bench to prone or any other position will get smaller and smaller until it's gone.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

All,

It's all about recoil. A consistent position, one where elbows, stock-weld, butt-to-shoulder, non-firing hand, and grip are in identical relationships with the gun and ground for each shot, will make recoil predictable. And, since recoil is an angular concept, manipulation of it through a consistent position is very important to good shooting.

Obviously, a change in position, let's say from prone to standing, will require some body adjustment to fit the gun, certainly, butt-to-shoulder will be higher, thus, changing the recoil pattern, or angularity of it from what was produced from the lower prone position. Of course, to accommodate the change in recoil angularity, the sights will need to be adjusted, perhaps, for both windage and elevation.

Some here have stated that they can change position without any need to adjust sights. This implies that their body contact with the rifle in all positions is the same, but, that's very unlikely. It's more likely, the relative inexact precision required for a good hit on their target has not revealed the need for an adjustment of the sight. Shooting at something like the MR-31 target will bring recognition of the need to adjust sights with any change of the position, or positions.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

I find that I get lower to the shooting surface at the bench than I do in prone, and as Rob01 mentions, some folks have a problem with their necks in prone. I'm apparently one of them, and there are some other physical issues I wont bore us all with. Long story short, I use a pad under my chest in prone to help me get comfortable, and I am still working with my front end rest adjusted nearly all the way down. My left elbow tends to look a tad flukey, too.

A body's response to recoil will do many things to the POI, witness the long discussion elsewhere on the site regarding bipod shooting. Sufficeth to say that shooting basics count, and how much a position change will alter POI's is largely a matter of how you approach the issue.

All I can suggest is that you concentrate on the shooting basics, regardless of what position you're using. I suspect that the more you do this, the smaller will be the differences. One of the main positional shooting differences is a phenomenon called 'stock creep' which definitely affects individual recoil response and can shift POI.

One of the things I have found is that for even lighter recoiling firearms, a harder hold is better than trying to achieve something resembling free recoil. For me...

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Greg,

Keeping the head erect in prone, as it should be in all positions for balance, is very uncomfortable, unless the full weight of it is rested on the stock; of course, you already know this. Thing is, although others here, as their questions reveal, apparently don't know much of anything about good shooting, it seems, don't really care for answers. It's kind of like, Hi, how are 'ya?

You, clearly, think about why the shot does not go where aimed. I just don't think most other shooters have any interest in shooting to a higher level-it shows in their attitude, scores and notions about it all. They're not thinking about anything, or what to do about anything.

The other day I read a thread about the .224 77 grain SMK. Folks said stuff like "my rifle don't like it", as if their rifle had taste buds or something. Instead of just working-out their brains, to eventually figure the performance of it might have something to do with manipulating it's recoil, and/or finding a load with a reduced ES, these folks concluded they'd just shoot the 69, never mind its inferior BC-yeah, right, shoot the inferior bullet for LR.

At any rate, there seem to be a whole lot of folks out there who, able to execute the firing task, think they know all there's to know about shooting, not really knowing even the first thing about good shooting.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

ya know, my thread in the hunting section bring up some good points too, on how we all might KNOW, but when it comes to execution, the pooch gets screwed. I agree with what Sterling is gettign at. In my experience going back and practicing the basics ALWAYS played a major role in improvement when accuracy fell off or even when I seemed to hit a plateau. Wether or not I felt that I was beyond the basics, it always seems to help. Like always though I get complacent and shit happens. Practice is good, but good practice is key. And I think thats the point Sterling is trying to make. In my story on the hunting thread many many factors I should have taken into consideration were disregarded out of complacency, and not only did I miss, I missed HARD! Even though I'm sure there was an ammo issue, can anybody guess what position I sighted in? can anybody guess what position I was shooting at coyotes? I'll give you a hint. The grass was tall on the range that day. I didnt have much choice on that one, but still, just another thing I failed to mention on the other thread.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Let's see if I can break this down Barney Style...

First the challenge, go out zero your rifle in the prone at 100 yards and get a rock solid zero. Then, shoot a group from the bench right then. Immediately go back to prone and see where your zero is ?

So what do we think will happen in that test ? My bet is the zero is in the same spot, which means the shooter changed something not the rifle.

Most of the problem during these few threads about this difference seems to come from blurring the lines between shooting a rifle with iron sights and shooting a rifle with a scope. Two completely different animals. The sniper manuals even address them differently and state so much as sight picture and sight alignment can be broken down into Aiming as long as the shooter maintains a complete field of view or full edge to edge sight picture, in which case as long as your eye is straight behind the scope, and you remove any parallax from the optic your zero "can't" change... because that puts the target, the reticle and the shooter's eye on the same focal plane... hence no deviation.

Now, if your stock is set up for prone shooting, chances are you're gonna have an eye relief issue while shooting positional. Me, I have my stocks adjusted to be 1/2" shorter than it should be speficially to compensation for my eye relief when shooting from a position other than prone. I understand it will change where my head is, so my stock is set so I can maintain a full field of view regardless of my position. Its pretty simple really, and i got that little nugget from Terry Cross.

Because my eye relief is right, and I have a full sight picture with edge to edge clarity, and I have removed my parallax the rounds will not deviate from target unless I screw up the shot up. And I hate to break this to the purist, my cheek weld is almost irrelevant at this point as long as my eye is straight behind the scope and I have no shadowing. Problem is people are not set up to shoot multiple position properly so their stock is probably too long and their eye relief is compromised. They may not even notice the shadowing but I guarantee it is there. I also set my eye relief in the middle of my magnification range because it change with power.

Bringing it around even further, we have to understand, the higher our head is off the ground, the less stable our position is, and the less accurate we'll be... so if you shoot a 1/2" in the prone you can't expect to do that in the kneeling, especially if you are realistic and shooting an 12-15lbs rifle. We're just not designed to hold that accurate from prone to sitting, kneeling and standing.

As well, if you have trigger and follow through issue, you're gonna have a problem before you even start. First because your rifle is probably not zeroed correctly. What ends up happening is, you zero the rifle too you... you didn't zero the rifle to the scope, or vis-versa. Which is why, Jacob and I can have the same zero being two totally different body types. In fact, I found this in the Chey Tac ABC Ballistic Program manual on the subject just last week. And I'll quote:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Shooter Specific Adjustments, the biggest factor Fieldcraft(tm) can compensate for is how the shooter holds the gun. For example, a shooter may notice that all his firing solutions cause a 1 MOA strike high on the target. Through extensive study and video analysis we have learned that this is due to incorrect position of the shooter on the gun. The bad position allows the tail of the gun to "sink" under recoil. this causes the muzzle to jump. Interestingly, when the shooter becomes aware of this error, he tends to "bleed" it out of his system and the problem goes away</div></div>

That is from the Fieldcraft manual which is part of this ballistic software. So not my words, theirs....

Now back to trigger control, if your trigger control sucks, you're gonna have an issue. As well, if you change position, you're probably mistakenly thinking all this is gonna change so you'll change the way you shoot. Don't, press, hold to the rear and follow through... if you zeroed the rifle correctly, there is absolutely no reason what so ever why the zero will change from one position to another. All you have to do it keep your eye in line with the scope so you don' t have any shadowing. Understand you're gonna be less stable, you're groups are not gonna be 1/2 MOA so be realistic in your goals.

Finally, practice positional shooting. Executing the proper fundamentals of marksmanship with compensate for a whole lot. As well, using a scope takes away things like sight alignment as found when shooting iron sights... as I said, even the USMC and Army manuals break sight alignment and sight picture down into one definitions for both, the relationship between the crosshairs and a full field of view as seen by the shooter. There is nothing in there explain how or why anything changes from position to position, because it doesn't if you understand the WHY... So, understand you need to be set up properly and it will all fall into place correctly.

Fix the shooter not the gun.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The sniper manuals even address them differently and state so much as sight picture and sight alignment can be broken down into Aiming as long as the shooter maintains a complete field of view or full edge to edge sight picture, in which case as long as your eye is straight behind the scope, and you remove any parallax from the optic your zero "can't" change... because that puts the target, the reticle and the shooter's eye on the same focal plane... hence no deviation.
</div></div>

That's what I would have said, but not as well spoken.

I simply cannot shoot from the bench, I cannot get the focal plane to establish - I get the small circular light dot and would have to adjust my craned neck, the scope or something and since shooting from a bench is impractical I always just move the bench the hell out of the way....at first the range guys yell about it, but when you are there 3-4 times a week in prone they get to know you.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Fix the shooter not the gun. </div></div>

And there you go.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So what do we think will happen in that test ? My bet is the zero is in the same spot, which means the shooter changed something not the rifle.

</div></div>

Of course the shooter changed something. And, since the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel's pointed, when bullets don't go where aimed, it's clear the shooter's sight is not adjusted properly, or the shooter's marksmanship is amiss. But, whether using irons or scope, a proper standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone position may each require a novel adjustment of the sight, since the angularity of recoil will become different with even a miniscule change of the shooter's relationship to the rifle and ground.

Perspective of aim with irons has two components, alignment and hold. Both are important, but since alignment is an angular concept, as distance to target increases, consistent perspective of it is more important than a wobble free and/or consistent hold. Folks new to irons will usually initally shoot very vertical strings as their perspective of consistent alignment, as well as hold are not identical for any of their shots.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So what do we think will happen in that test ? My bet is the zero is in the same spot, which means the shooter changed something not the rifle.

</div></div>

Of course the shooter changed something. And, since the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel's pointed, when bullets don't go where aimed, it's clear the shooter's sight is not adjusted properly, or the shooter's marksmanship is amiss. But, whether using irons or scope, a proper standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone position may each require a novel adjustment of the sight, since the angularity of recoil will become different with even a miniscule change of the shooter's relationship to the rifle and ground.
</div></div>

Interesting, every match we hold or shoot, we shoot from different positions, standing, sitting, kneeling and support side prone, off of barricades and no one complains their zero is off... now maybe you'll be off if you are shooting sling supported from different positions, but from any other supported position... we don't see it.

Again, I think you are blurring the lines, recoil management is the same whether you shoot from the prone or the kneeling off a barricade... you support the rifle it goes where you point it. No sight adjustments

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Because a picture is worth a 1000 words, I figure I can show what we mean, these were all taken at a match, note the different positions:

These are the barricades we use, from sitting to kneeling to standing.

Standing, note the eye is lined up behind the rifle

Sitting position, supporting the rifle, giving it something to recoil against and driving the trigger correctly, nothing is compromised.

Kneeling off of a tripod for support, impact is all the same,

A 338LM doing the same thing, note his position how he supports the rifle and gives it something to work against.

Even running the bolt his position is not changed, he maintains his cheek weld, not lifting his head, his shoulders are square, the rifle hasn't flown off the tripod, even with the recoil of a 338LM...

So it can be done, and why we say going from a bench to the prone should pose no problems, we do it every class.

 

[Guest]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Fix the shooter not the gun. </div></div>

And there you go. </div></div>

Those are the correct responces, for most all of the shooting related posts on this site.

The first rule when working with, or operating anything man made, is to be smarter than the shit your working with. Now thats a harsh statement but so, so true.
Asking a question is one thing, but knowing the correct question/s to ask, is the first step to out smarting the tools.

There are times you'll have to wade thru the answers though, because of all the back rounds not applied in print.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So what do we think will happen in that test ? My bet is the zero is in the same spot, which means the shooter changed something not the rifle.

</div></div>

Of course the shooter changed something. And, since the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel's pointed, when bullets don't go where aimed, it's clear the shooter's sight is not adjusted properly, or the shooter's marksmanship is amiss. But, whether using irons or scope, a proper standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone position may each require a novel adjustment of the sight, since the angularity of recoil will become different with even a minuscule change of the shooter's relationship to the rifle and ground.
</div></div>

Interesting, every match we hold or shoot, we shoot from different positions, standing, sitting, kneeling and support side prone, off of barricades and no one complains their zero is off... now maybe you'll be off if you are shooting sling supported from different positions, but from any other supported position... we don't see it.

Again, I think you are blurring the lines, recoil management is the same whether you shoot from the prone or the kneeling off a barricade... you support the rifle it goes where you point it. No sight adjustments </div></div>

Managing recoil is about making it predictable. A consistent position makes it predictable.

Shots on-call, whether they hit what we're aiming at or not, suggest that the gun is indeed zeroed. Shots on-call, but not where wanted, suggest shooter error, something likely to do with an inconsistent position.

Shooting a multitude of rounds on NRA HP targets, rather than E or F type targets, will reveal the necessity for zeros specific to position, as well as need to adjust zeros for changes in environmental conditions like wind and weather.

Although a refined zero is a necessity for bulls-eye competition, considering shooting scenarios outside the NRA HP environment, having just a general recognition of where the gun is pointed may be all that can be mustered.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

We were shooting a 3" dot with scoring rings in those first few pics above posted by Lowlight. Don't assume in matches you are shooting full silhouettes all the time especially at Rifles Only.

The kneeling tripod pics were I believe on a 8"x12" steel target at 400 yards if I remember correctly although I wasn't at this years match so it might have changed.

We're not talking about environmentals here as the OP had the same going from bench to prone. Bottom line is he needs to practice. Not record multiple adjustments to his scope to compensate for his shortcomings in form.

I don't shoot iron sights so maybe you NRA HP guys have to change something when moving from position to position but I do run scopes and if you are behind the scope right you don't have to change anything going from one position to the other.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We were shooting a 3" dot with scoring rings in those first few pics above posted by Lowlight. Don't assume in matches you are shooting full silhouettes all the time especially at Rifles Only.

The kneeling tripod pics were I believe on a 8"x12" steel target at 400 yards if I remember correctly although I wasn't at this years match so it might have changed.

We're not talking about environmentals here as the OP had the same going from bench to prone. Bottom line is he needs to practice. Not record multiple adjustments to his scope to compensate for his shortcomings in form.

I don't shoot iron sights so maybe you NRA HP guys have to change something when moving from position to position but I do run scopes and if you are behind the scope right you don't have to change anything going from one position to the other.</div></div>

A consistent perspective of aim is necessary to zero any gun, whether it's sighted with a scope or irons. A consistent relationship between the sights, shooter and ground is also necessary to maintain the zero.

BTW, a shooter who needs to make a sight adjustment specific to any position may not have any shortcomings, that's to say, if he builds a consistent position, the sight adjustment necessary to zero is what it is.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

But Sterling you said a change in position requires a change in the sight... both windage and elevation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously, a change in position, let's say from prone to standing, will require some body adjustment to fit the gun, certainly, butt-to-shoulder will be higher, thus, changing the recoil pattern, or angularity of it from what was produced from the lower prone position. Of course, to accommodate the change in recoil angularity, the sights will need to be adjusted, perhaps, for both windage and elevation.</div></div>

I submitted, its not the recoil, but the relationship the shooter has to the sights which changes because most rifles are not set up to all proper sight alignment which is why you have big errors...you're saying the recoil is the issue. Well I disagree... how can you have a tactical system any, and not expect to have to shoot from a position without the luxury of zero change or sighters... its not practical or taught.

If you're straight behind the optic, and execute the FOM, the rounds should hit, and again, like Rob said, we are not shooting E Types, the biggest we ever shoot is 18X30 at 1000 yards... otherwise most targets are much much smaller.

But regardless, you said change the sights... recoil management is your job, you can clearly see the guy shooting the 338LM is set up in the best position possible to management the system. He was not blown off the tripod, as unstable as that should be, so if your logic was to hold 100% true, with a big bore like a 338LM recoil management would be insanely hard, and he looks pretty effortless if you ask me.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

I should say, recoil is an error, because most people don't management it correctly, but so is trigger, and follow through as well as sight alignment. I have seen people try to lightly touch off a rifle and hold it lighter than required... but I believe recoil management is part of the shooters job to get right.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Insanely hard, I don't think so; but, given a specific weight for a rifle, the one shooting with the less kick will likely give the shooter some accuracy advantage.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Well the example I showed was that 338LM pictured, use that.

As well do you advocate a sight change when teaching guys with an M4 and Aimpoint ? Or even just a zero shift ?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

The folks I train usually establish a 255 or 300 meter BSZ on their BDC sight at 25 meters on a modified zeroing target. Grouping to zero is done in prone position with sandbag support.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Doesn't answer the question... where the zero is established doesn't address the change in impact from position as written.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Think of it this way. The sight is connected to the rifle, the relationship between the sight and boreline is estabilshed when it's zeroed.

The rifle does not know if you were prone, kneeling or standing. Presuming you placed the mass of you body behind the rifle for it to recoil against, the mechanical zero is not going to change, it is what it is.

I just had a PR7 class last month. During the last UKD shoot, I broke out the .338 system and had the shooters each get on the gun and shoot at 1450 yards. No one got to zero with it, they just dialed up what I told them and shot. Eight different individuals shot. No elevation changes were required for any of them, 6 of eight hit an 18x24 inch plate, two were just off the edge with the wind, elevation was fine.

Now, I suppose if you zero from a good solid prone position then switch to a bagged bench rest and free recoil, the change in recoil forces might require a sight change. If the shooter is properly positioned behind the gun, the sights don't need an adjustment.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

I think we are all arguing the same point.
I think the bottom line is that he is shooting low when in prone because his head is in a different spot. Its easy to do from bench to prone because you have to bring your head down to the rifle in prone, while the bench helps bring the rifle up towards the head. Recoil management might even play a part as well. For example, at my range, the benches suck ass. They are just plain built wrong, w/ the seats permanently attached on a diagonal. I find this completely prevents me from practicing getting straight behind the rifle. its is imposible to create proper NPA with my shoulders square. As a result, i prefer to shoot at this range in the prone for all my sighting in/load devel. etc...So why am I having a problem? The grass is too friggin high to see the damn target in prone, so there I am practicing poorly on the POS benches. Am I blaming anything but me? No, I'm too lazy to do anything else about it.
When I used to shoot competition smalbore did I have to adjust sights for prone, kneeling, sitting, standing? No, I did not, but my original comment, probably like Sterlings, is most likely based on competitive shooting. Anything works as long as it is consistent...Does this mean Frank is wrong? Ofcourse not. You are right on w/ your statements about sight alignment, and the practicality of tactical shooters employing various hasty positions while maintaining zero. Just two different solutions to the same problem by two different mindsets.
- glad to be learning along w/ everyone else.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

OK,
Arm in cast, typing difficult.

When I shoot M-14 and AR with iron sights from any position other than standing, my zeroes are the same.
Standing, the butt placement is much higher in the shoulder, done so because this is what is needed to get the head directly behind the sights.
Sight change neccessary because of recoil difference, high butt placement with portion of butt above shoulder, different recoil. All other positions, butt fully in shoulder pocket, recoil has same body mass behind, no change required.

When shooting scope, as Frank said:
"Most of the problem during these few threads about this difference seems to come from blurring the lines between shooting a rifle with iron sights and shooting a rifle with a scope. Two completely different animals. The sniper manuals even address them differently and state so much as sight picture and sight alignment can be broken down into Aiming as long as the shooter maintains a complete field of view or full edge to edge sight picture, in which case as long as your eye is straight behind the scope, and you remove any parallax from the optic your zero "can't" change... because that puts the target, the reticle and the shooter's eye on the same focal plane... hence no deviation.

Now, if your stock is set up for prone shooting, chances are you're gonna have an eye relief issue while shooting positional. Me, I have my stocks adjusted to be 1/2" shorter than it should be speficially to compensation for my eye relief when shooting from a position other than prone. I understand it will change where my head is, so my stock is set so I can maintain a full field of view regardless of my position. Its pretty simple really, and i got that little nugget from Terry Cross.

Because my eye relief is right, and I have a full sight picture with edge to edge clarity, and I have removed my parallax the rounds will not deviate from target unless I screw up the shot up. And I hate to break this to the purist, my cheek weld is almost irrelevant at this point as long as my eye is straight behind the scope and I have no shadowing. Problem is people are not set up to shoot multiple position properly so their stock is probably too long and their eye relief is compromised. They may not even notice the shadowing but I guarantee it is there. I also set my eye relief in the middle of my magnification range because it change with power.

Bringing it around even further, we have to understand, the higher our head is off the ground, the less stable our position is, and the less accurate we'll be... so if you shoot a 1/2" in the prone you can't expect to do that in the kneeling, especially if you are realistic and shooting an 12-15lbs rifle. We're just not designed to hold that accurate from prone to sitting, kneeling and standing. "

I have the same experiences as Frank.

Shooting bench, MOST people are higher above the rifle, more mass behind the rifle, and have downward shoulder mass/weight where the only downward mass shooting prone is from the head.
A picture would show this clearly.

Thus the recoil difference causes a different POI. My experience in this from 30 years of instruction and shooting.

When you look at Frank's pictures, you see every one of the shooters slightly bladed on the rifle, and you see every one of them with the butt 95-100% in the pocket which correctly establishes recoil management requirement #1.
You will see the same position regardless of sitting, kneeling, or standing, same blade, same butt placement in the pocket, and same mass behind the rifle. Therefore same results.

Many people blade more on a bench and have less mass behind the rifle butt. Different recoil happens.

When you see most of the shooters in prone, when using the spine axis parrallel to the rifle axis, you still see the butt placement that you do in the pictures here. There is more mass behind the rifle in these prone positions.

A slight blading when prone, with the butt properly in the pocket gives the same result as the sitting, kneeling, and standing blade position results in POI.
That slight blading when prone also gives a closer to the same position head position (prone/kneeling/sitting/standing)than the spine/rifle axis parrallel position.

Look at the pictures of the winning shooters, the proof is there.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think of it this way. The sight is connected to the rifle, the relationship between the sight and boreline is estabilshed when it's zeroed.

The rifle does not know if you were prone, kneeling or standing. Presuming you placed the mass of you body behind the rifle for it to recoil against, the mechanical zero is not going to change, it is what it is.

I just had a PR7 class last month. During the last UKD shoot, I broke out the .338 system and had the shooters each get on the gun and shoot at 1450 yards. No one got to zero with it, they just dialed up what I told them and shot. Eight different individuals shot. No elevation changes were required for any of them, 6 of eight hit an 18x24 inch plate, two were just off the edge with the wind, elevation was fine.

Now, I suppose if you zero from a good solid prone position then switch to a bagged bench rest and free recoil, the change in recoil forces might require a sight change. If the shooter is properly positioned behind the gun, the sights don't need an adjustment.</div></div>

Unless the rifle/sight is broken the sight will be aligned with the rifle. Perspective of aim is something else; and, it requires zeroing of the sight. Zeroing takes recoil into account. When recoil in some way changes, due to any number of things, so does the zero.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

You'll need to explain the geometry of the persepective of aim thing. It takes two points to define a line. The front and rear sight, once aligned with the point of impact define the sight line, the rifle is mechanically zeroed. Place the target on that line, you hit. If you vary the position of your eye behind the sights, you vary the alignment. That is an aiming problem, not a sight adjustment problem.

Once the sights are set to the POI, explain how one might have proper sight alignment, along with a proper sight picture and NOT have the system pointed at the desired POI, thus requiring a sight adjustment. Note, we are not talking about recoil here.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll need to explain the geometry of the persepective of aim thing. It takes two points to define a line. The front and rear sight, once aligned with the point of impact define the sight line, the rifle is mechanically zeroed. Place the target on that line, you hit. If you vary the position of your eye behind the sights, you vary the alignment. That is an aiming problem, not a sight adjustment problem.

Once the sights are set to the POI, explain how one might have proper sight alignment, along with a proper sight picture and NOT have the system pointed at the desired POI, thus requiring a sight adjustment. Note, we are not talking about recoil here.</div></div>

You may not be talkin' recoil, but, I am. From the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet exits the bore, the line of sight/line of bore (where the gun is pointed) is effected by recoil, and, of course, recoil is therefore taken into account when zeroing. You know about follow-through. Change the bullet weight, or velocity and the zero will change. Change the position to where the gun cannot be supported with bone and artifical support in the manner in which the gun was originally zeroed and the zero will need to be corrected.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

What's recoil got to do with this 'perspective of aim' thing?

If the position is correct, the rifle should recoil straight back the same each time. If you get squared up the same in all positions, the recoil issue is controlled. Now, if getting the right position screws up your ability to see the sights properly, fix the sights, stock length, comb height, etc, until the sights are correct with you in the proper position.

I'm with Frank here. Shorten the stock. I've get people showing up in class with 14" LOP on factory rifles, no wonder they need to get sideways. I've never met anyone who can't shoot a 12" to 12.5" LOP just fine, making the transition from prone to standing much eaiser to keep the shoulders square to the target.

Now, this won't permit that nice Camp Perry standing position, firing elbow up and support side elbow braced on your hip, but this is Sniper's Hide, not High Power Central. If you are going to fight with the rifle, it better not take a different sight setting for each position you end up in.

BTW, everyone knows that followthrough, in and of itself, has absolutly no effect on the shot, right? It exists as a system to insure we have not actually moved BEFORE the shot has left the barrel.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's recoil got to do with this 'perspective of aim' thing?

If the position is correct, the rifle should recoil straight back the same each time. If you get squared up the same in all positions, the recoil issue is controlled. Now, if getting the right position screws up your ability to see the sights properly, fix the sights, stock length, comb height, etc, until the sights are correct with you in the proper position.

I'm with Frank here. Shorten the stock. I've get people showing up in class with 14" LOP on factory rifles, no wonder they need to get sideways. I've never met anyone who can't shoot a 12" to 12.5" LOP just fine, making the transition from prone to standing much eaiser to keep the shoulders square to the target.

Now, this won't permit that nice Camp Perry standing position, firing elbow up and support side elbow braced on your hip, but this is Sniper's Hide, not High Power Central. If you are going to fight with the rifle, it better not take a different sight setting for each position you end up in.

BTW, everyone knows that followthrough, in and of itself, has absolutly no effect on the shot, right? It exists as a system to insure we have not actually moved BEFORE the shot has left the barrel.
</div></div>

You said, the rifle should recoil straight back? Not so fast, the rifle will recoil, period. All that matters is that it recoils consistently.

Follow-through is about control of the rifle (understanding where the gun is pointed) until recoil has subsided.


You ask, the perspective of aim thing. Unless the gun is broken, there's a relationship between the front and rear sight. The perspective of alignment depends upon where the eyeball is positioned, that's to say, it's going to be some sort of relationship between the front sight, rear sight, and eyeball. When a good chipmunk stock-weld is acquired, the eyeball can be placed consistently for the tip of the front sight to appear to be centered in the rear aperture. When proper alignment has been established, then, while maintaining such alignment, comes adjustment of NPA to establish the desired hold (relationship between the front sight and target).

BTW, from your questions it seems you have no experience shooting a Service Rifle, is that right?

You're with Frank? What, are you dating, or something? I don't think Frank really needs a side-kick.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Dating, hmm, he does have a girl's name.

But i digress.

Sterling I am sort of following what you are saying without following what you are saying because I personally haven't seen "recoil" effecting my shots the way you describe. (And I am familiar with open sights and a service rifle, 5th award expert with the Corps, so I must have shot something right)

Anyway, if the recoil was so effective, wouldn't that hold true for a handgun... ? Shouldn't handgun recoil effect the sighting on that as well.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dating, hmm, he does have a girl's name.

But i digress.

Sterling I am sort of following what you are saying without following what you are saying because I personally haven't seen "recoil" effecting my shots the way you describe. (And I am familiar with open sights and a service rifle, 5th award expert with the Corps, so I must have shot something right)

Anyway, if the recoil was so effective, wouldn't that hold true for a handgun... ? Shouldn't handgun recoil effect the sighting on that as well. </div></div>

Although shooting rifle, pistol, and shotgun, is all the same, the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, I don't want to say anything about handgun shooting because I have so little experience with handguns, and absolutely no marksmanship credentials with handguns. I figure, once I learn how to shoot a rifle, I'll try out handguns.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Okay... a handgun has sights and recoils, but anyway.

let me ask you if this is familiar... think of this in fractions of a second.

you have a sight picture, you break the shot, <span style="font-style: italic">(calling where the sight picture was)</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">"recoil"</span> you regain sight picture

Sight picture X recoil X sight picture

does that sound like what you see.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

I've shot plenty of service rifles, but I gave up the National Match stuff after my college Rifle Team days.

I was getting the impression you were trying to say something about the appearance of the sights having an effect on the zero.

For what it's worth, the fact is no stock weld is actually required. If the front sight is centered in the rear sight, the sights are aligned. You can't see the sights as aligned without having your eye on the same line as the sights. Take for example, a folding stock AK, where I can't actually get any real stock contact. It's certainly simpler to achieve the alignment with a consistent stock weld, but that's all. If stock weld were actually important or required, as Frank notes, pistols would be REALLY hard to shoot.

Followthrough is an means to an end. It's a method to achieve the focus required to align the sights on the target, then activate the trigger without disturbing that alignment. Once the bullet has left the barrel, where the rifle goes is of no factor whatsoever in the path of the bullet. It may or may not tell us something about how that shot was fired. A lack of any followthrough on the shooters part does not mean the downrange result WILL be bad, it just increases the chances that the shooter made an error in the shot process.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

I meant to reply to this sooner, but got sidetracked.

Aside from a few real losers out there, (like the Mini-14 I was asked to sight-in last week. It was so bad at 100yd, I started over, walked 50 steps from the bench, and put the target there. Amazingly, it ended up also being perfectly zeroed for the 200yd gong), most production firearms will shoot pretty decently with little more than good ammo and a minimum of tweakage. ...And unless there's something seriously wrong with the particular rifle, so will most .22LR's.

Yet when the target looks awful, it's automatically the gun's fault, and we get treated to the "Gee the gun does this, what's wrong with it?" scenario.

I'm not here to flog the forum members; we are here to help, not browbeat, our fellows.

LL stresses form and technique, and I think I hear a little exasperation in his tone from time to time. I can sympathize. After gosh knows how long (maybe a decade, maybe a bit more), folks can be understood if they get a tad feisty when replying to the same question periodically, and for the umpteenth time.

But we need to step back a smidge and recollect that for the questioners, it's not the umpteenth time, and if somebody hadn't answered our own initial questions with patience and understanding we might just as well be reading <span style="font-style: italic">Golf for Dummies</span> (Now <span style="font-style: italic">there's</span> a redundancy...), instead of pondering the seeming quandries of Spindrift and Coriolis, et al...

It's easy to blame the hammer, less easy to blame the carpenter; but <span style="font-style: italic">somebody</span> bent the verschluginner nail, and the hammer didn't do it all by itself, Dude...

When guns misguide the bullets, if it's the gun, it's most likely either something's loose, or the ammo ain't doing it's usual peerless job. Aside from that, go look in the mirror. If that don't get it, buy some lottery tickets, because your luck is exceptional.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've shot plenty of service rifles, but I gave up the National Match stuff after my college Rifle Team days.

I was getting the impression you were trying to say something about the appearance of the sights having an effect on the zero.

For what it's worth, the fact is no stock weld is actually required. If the front sight is centered in the rear sight, the sights are aligned. You can't see the sights as aligned without having your eye on the same line as the sights. Take for example, a folding stock AK, where I can't actually get any real stock contact. It's certainly simpler to achieve the alignment with a consistent stock weld, but that's all. If stock weld were actually important or required, as Frank notes, pistols would be REALLY hard to shoot.

Followthrough is an means to an end. It's a method to achieve the focus required to align the sights on the target, then activate the trigger without disturbing that alignment. Once the bullet has left the barrel, where the rifle goes is of no factor whatsoever in the path of the bullet. It may or may not tell us something about how that shot was fired. A lack of any followthrough on the shooters part does not mean the downrange result WILL be bad, it just increases the chances that the shooter made an error in the shot process.

</div></div>

Gee, where do I start, you have so little comprehension of shooting facts. First, sight alignment must be seen where the tip of the front post appears to be centered in the rear aperture. If the shooter selects some alternative sight appearance, with a sight having been earlier zeroed using the tip of the post centered in the rear aperture, then bullets will not go where aimed. Since it's an angular concept, misses are assured at distance when alignment is not perfect. BTW, since the brain tends to naturally center things, proper sight alignment will always be one where the post tip is centered in the rear aperture, as it's easier to recognize when this particular front to rear sight relationship has been perfected. And, although sight alignment can be established and perhaps maintained without stockweld, a good cheek roll helps to anchor alignment, as well as support the position-surely you remember, from your college days, the factors of a steady position: butt-to-shoulder, stockweld, non-firing hand, elbows, and grip.

Follow through, maintaining aim until recoil has subsided, is necessary to indeed assure the bullet has cleared the bore before the shooter becomes more muscularly relaxed, which he will likely become after executing the firing task. If the shooter does not consciencely follow through, aim will not likely be maintained until the bullet has cleared the bore.

Follow through, when focus is where it should be, on the front sight, allows the shooter to call his shots. Calling shots is, of course, essential to shooter/target analysis.

Perhaps, if you did not drop out of competitive shooting, these shooting facts would be more meaningful. With comprehension of all concepts important to good shooting you might be able to reach a higher plateau of good shooting and perhaps become an extraordinary marksman. It seems from your comments you do not yet grasp the importance of some things essential to good shooting. Did you drop out of competition because success was not available for what limited shooting knowledge you were able to muster. What I see often are folks who confuse executing the firing task with actually knowing how to shoot. These folks can get the job done on relatively big targets at relatively short distances, but fall apart as the distance to target increases.

BTW, that comment you made about the AK, thanks for supporting my observations, although the AK will always shoot in the direction it's pointed, understanding exactly where it's pointed may not be possible, and thus, getting exact hits may not be possible at anything other than short distance.

Now, this is not fact, but, it is what I belive-an instructur needs not only know what's important to good shooting but why. You seem to know what's important, but you appear not to know why. I'm certain if I did not understand how it all works I would not be a very effective instructor. Even though all firing takes place at the weapon, the instructor is still important to shot analysis, since the student typically does not know what to do about correcting zeros whether shots go on-call or not.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

I don't see how we disagree on what proper sight alignment is. If the sights are aligned, then the sight picture is created, if I move my eye are the sights no longer aligned? The only thing that has changed is that the eye can no longer see the alignment, since IT is no longer aligned with the aligned sights.

I have no problem shooting the AK, despite the lack of a stockweld. One still aligns the sights the same way, just keep your head still. Clearly one can establish a sight picture and maintain it without a stockweld, pistols have no stock and seem to work fine. I will often during class shoot my 1911 inverted, using my pinky on the trigger, just to illustrate that sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control are the same no matter the firing conditions. Likewise when students seem to think 300 yard sitting is difficult, I'll shoot the 800 yard plate from offhand.

Our position on followthrough is exactly the same, at least as far as what it is meant to accomplish. It is not, however, PHYSICALLY REQUIRED, as it has no actual influence on the shot. If you maintain position for the milliseconds during release of the striker up until bullet exit, you've done all that's needed. Followthrough is required as a MENTAL aspect of the shot process.

I quit shooting high power and smallbore because it became monumentally boring. Shooting the same black circle at the same marked distance from the same fixed positions over and over again just failed to hold my interest. I went Expert Smallbore for example at age 15, by the time I was 22 I just had way more interest in field shooting.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Well, I am not going to get any deeper into this then really needs to be... but Sterling, again you take a topic about a guy with a scope and answer it through the eyes of iron sights... which doesn't apply.

It's not recoil in this case, its position. Improper position and lack of consistency behind the scope when moving from the bench to the prone or the prone to an alternate position. That position can be defined as poor eye relief or not having a clear edge to edge field of view, as well he more than likely is experiencing scope shadowing do to the change in his head position. He is not experiencing an adverse condition due to recoil.

I can tell you straight up, I can see my impacts appear in the paper at 100 yards. I can see the actual hole appear, so recoil is not throwing my shots off, others results may very, probably due to position.

But just to be clear...

I don't have an cold bore shot deviation

I don't see my point of impact change with position

I don't have my bipod hop even on hard surfaces

I can shoot small targets beyond a 1000 yards

I can hit a target with an handgun beyond 50 yards

I compete when my schedule permits albeit not with open sights

I shoot in front of people, and I shoot on video for the world to see so I have nothing to hide

I make mistakes in my shooting all the time and have to constantly remind myself of the fundamentals of marksmanship


I see your explanations as valid to some degree, but my personal experience tells me that degree is smaller than these other factors. Recoil management is possible, its the shooters job through position, and done correctly minimizes the effects. Then you look at a traditional high power, iron sighted positions, they don't set up to control recoil the same way a tactical shooter needs to be... you're off to the side, head cocked to line up the sights in a more comfortable manner, you have someone spot for you a 100% of the time even if through sighters and markers on the target, and you have tons of time to rebuild the shot each and every time. Tactical shooters, don't have these luxuries.

I agree completely with your statements, but I will say that you may want to look at the fact, I don't know Cory at all, never met him, and probably have different philosophies on a host of things, but we both are coming from the same place here so that should say something. Which is why I brought up a handgun, yes a consistent cheek weld is important to continued success with a rifle, but we're not talking about iron sights... again.

What's important in this context with a scoped rifle is getting your eye in line with the scope, and adjusting the parallax to put the target, the reticle, and your eye on the same focal plane. If you recognize this and change your head to accomplish this when you change position, you will not have a deviation in POI... its impossible unless you the shooter changes the way you fire the rifle, mainly with trigger and follow through. Consistent cheek weld will change from position to position unless you adjust the stock every time, or move the scope. Both of which are not practical unless given ample time and opportunity, again, luxury a tactical shooter doesn't have.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Frank,

I've never looked at this discussion as an agree or disagree subject. All shooting is the same and facts are facts. You know 'em and so do I. What's important is getting a good hit, right. Good hits for me at LR with a Service Rifle, or in HP standing, means a whole lot of pinwheel X's for a win. So, perfecting everything about my position, sight alignment, and trigger control becomes important-other than the basics, it has not much in common with combat marksmanship, where perhaps a 300 meter BSZ, orginally established from 25 meters, needs to get the job done for any position and distance to about 400 meters without much of any support or time, and, in conditions which could require holds and favors to counter wind, slope and moving targets.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Correct, but the original question was asked in the context of a precision scoped rifle.

The disagreement comes in advocating a change in the sight adjustment to compensate for a change in body position. I suppose the debate comes from this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a zero in one position is not a zero in another position...
you change position, you've changed something..doesnt work.
memorize or record differences in zero for your various positions</div></div>

granted not your words, but wrong none the less. So, when we talk about other factor influencing the shot, I think we both agree form in terms of position are important, however they vary based on the discipline ever so slightly, but they do vary. The rest is infinitely just as important, breathing, trigger control, follow through, and while the sight pictures are slightly different even by definition I think the mistakes are similar in execution. People fail to properly insure proper sight alignment in your case, and sight picture in ours.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

Yes, that is not my quote, however, I do not disagree with it. It's why I have a score book to record all of the conditions which can effect the shot.

About scopes, my limited experience with magnified optices supports your understanding of their proper usage.

For another day and topic, I'll tell you about my thoughts on the TA-31F, as related to general marksmanship, as this is the optic I have the most experience with.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For another day and topic, I'll tell you about my thoughts on the <span style="font-weight: bold"> TA-31F,</span> as related to general marksmanship, as this is the optic I have the most experience with.</div></div>

They always scratch my Oakley's...

You'd be appalled at how we shoot them now, but again, a discussion for another day.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

For those that followed this, here is the video, shooting from the prone, rifle is zeroed... then I move to support side shooting left handed, then to a bench and back to support side from the bench.

Results are demonstrated via unedited video...

I will say, I have the target, in case anyone wants a close up.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FVYHIXra4rA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FVYHIXra4rA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[Rob01]

Re: Moving from the Bench to Prone sights are off?

VOODOO!!!!