Rifle Scopes MRAD & MOA, Can they coexist in the safe?

Str8shuutr45

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I have been shooting with MOA based scopes for a number of years. It seems like most of the good glass is exclusively MRAD. In the "everyone's got an opinion category", how difficult is it to operate both systems? I know the calculations for ranging are different but it's only math. Does anyone have rifles with MOA and MRAD scopes or have you just stuck with one or the other.
I'm interested what people think because I've had the opportunity to shoot some gongs a 800 yds and now I'm hooked. I recently purchased a Sig Cross PRS in 308 and am thinking of going with a Vortex Razor GII with EB7C reticle in MRAD.
Thanks in advance.
 

Baron85

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I had both for a while. Dialing elevation wants a problem it was holding wind for me. Having the subtensions different was hard for me to jump back and forth with. Same for when I have different reticles that are mils. Such as one reticle that is in 1/2 mils and one in .2 mils.
 

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It doesn't bother me a lick but I'm a very mathematical thinker and a habitual memorizer of boringly mundane and obscure data. Multiplying/dividing by ~3.5 in my head under time pressure isn't something that bothers me much. If you're the kind of person that I am you'll occasionally be given over to, 'Hmmm... I wonder how much that (where "that" is some random 3-digit integer) is in base-13.' kind of thinking. For most people it's not ideal to have different systems in different scope/gun combos just because you're liable to be loaning the 2nd one off to your shooting buddy and then you have a day where it's Funker and Nick arguing about how to zero a rifle for 30 minutes and no amount of competence on one side is going to unscrew the other side.
 

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Baron23

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    I have been shooting with MOA based scopes for a number of years. It seems like most of the good glass is exclusively MRAD. In the "everyone's got an opinion category", how difficult is it to operate both systems? I know the calculations for ranging are different but it's only math. Does anyone have rifles with MOA and MRAD scopes or have you just stuck with one or the other.
    I'm interested what people think because I've had the opportunity to shoot some gongs a 800 yds and now I'm hooked. I recently purchased a Sig Cross PRS in 308 and am thinking of going with a Vortex Razor GII with EB7C reticle in MRAD.
    Thanks in advance.
    No...haha

    1657665266237.png
     
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    UpSideDown

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    If you’re using a calculator and running the math and dialing for every shot it doesn’t matter. Both have different mental speed calculations that can be done for different things. I personally prefer Mil’s because I hunt and it’s very easy to remember dope, and you can use Speed Drop.

    This is my dope for 100-500 with my main rifle/ammo, with 500 spot on and the others within .1-.2 deviation:
    100: zero
    200: .5mil
    300: 1.5mil
    400: 2.5 mil
    500: 3.5 mil
     
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    Str8shuutr45

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    If you’re using a calculator and running the math and dialing for every shot it doesn’t matter. Both have different mental speed calculations that can be done for different things. I personally prefer Mil’s because I hunt and it’s very easy to remember dope, and you can use Speed Drop.

    This is my dope for 100-500 with my main rifle/ammo, with 500 spot on and the others within .1-.2 deviation:
    100: zero
    200: .5mil
    300: 1.5mil
    400: 2.5 mil
    500: 3.5 mil
    I can see that if I was starting new, I’d go all Mil. My other rifle is a 6.5 CM. I think I need to get out there and build some Dope.
     

    Rob01

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    They are both just angular graduations. Have an moa scope then run data in moa on your ballistic calculator. Have one in mils then run in mils. That simple. If you can run one then you can run either.
     

    SmartDonkey

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    You already have that fine chick (MOA) and now you want to go slum it with a disease infested mistake (Mil)....

    I have both- when all the bushnell elite scopes were on sale it was too much to pass up (only mil) and it hasn't been any problem.
     

    MadDuner

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    Never thought about it before.

    You mean there’s a difference between Mils and Moas?

    Is it going to be anything like driving my wife’s car compared to driving my truck?
    I’m not sure I’ll be able to keep them both on the road - because the view is different from each one, and the speedometer is shaped different, and one has little tires and one has big tires, and they aren’t even the same color.

    I think it will be OK.
     

    LANCER

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    Why not both? But all in one optic? Imagine the frustration of using a Leupold MK4 that has MOA turrets and Mildot reticle? Had one of those that came with my MRAD as a kit. Took it off pretty fast and sold it.

    I did not like that at all.
    I'm all MILS now because shooting buddies all use MILS and stuff.
     

    mrmarklin

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    I use both. It’s never been a problem. It’s more instinctive to use MOA, but I use metric in another hobby I have and it’s easy to think that way as well.
     

    acudaowner

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    mine get along roaming free on the walls of my room a mixture of moa and mil scopes adorning rifles happy , and still free and yes they do move in herds

     

    Doom

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    Since most mil scopes are dot/hash and the newer MOA are also hash its easy to forget about how many inches are in a mil or inches in a MOA and just use the reticle to measure with. I use both. It helps when using Ballistic Calculators to ignore the inch’s drop and windage and only look at mils/MOA.
     
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    Raffy

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    Only if its a next gen Quigley Ford!

    Then you could run 1st and 2nd focal plane, and mil/moa all in the same basket case!

    This could be huge!
     

    danatkins

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    In the safe yes in my brain no. Only time I use moa is my group size. I've got one moa scope but it's on my ar and it either gets used as a red dot at 1x or for longer distance at 6x and my holds are in my scope cap
     
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    spamassassin

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    In the safe yes in my brain no. Only time I use moa is my group size. I've got one moa scope but it's on my ar and it either gets used as a red dot at 1x or for longer distance at 6x and my holds are in my scope cap
    This is something I'll never understand and I think it's just coming down to habituation. I have a great many friends that live in zip code "foreign" and are also sport shooters. They, of course because they don't live in the USA or Liberia or Burma, use the metric system for everything except wind speed (mph), muzzle velocity (fps) and group size (moa) but they mix those hopelessly unhelpful units with millimeters and meters (but not centimeters for some unspoken reason) and kilometers freely. I prefer the metric system but I use centimeters instead of millimeters or other sub-meter units so we're always talking at crossed purposes. It would be nice if everyone just stopped with the base-12 and base-60 and other fossils of the imperial age and moved on to base-10, and if we want to have some fun with other number systems we can use base-2, base-8 and base-16 like god intended.
     

    308pirate

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    In the "everyone's got an opinion category", how difficult is it to operate both systems?
    Easy as fuck IF you truly, really understand the use of angular measurements to adjust rifle trajectory. Problem is, most fudds and beginners do not.

    Said another way, if you're the sort who vapor locks when faced with driving a car in Canada, you'll have trouble using both.


    I know the calculations for ranging are different but it's only math.
    Nobody cares about that shit. At the distances that you can be very accurate with reticle ranging, you're almost always inside of max point blank range for a reasonable sized target so ranging accuracy doesn't matter that much. At the distances where you need an exact range for a hit, reticle ranging can't deliver.
     
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    308pirate

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    It doesn't bother me a lick but I'm a very mathematical thinker and a habitual memorizer of boringly mundane and obscure data. Multiplying/dividing by ~3.5 in my head under time pressure isn't something that bothers me much. If you're the kind of person that I am you'll occasionally be given over to, 'Hmmm... I wonder how much that (where "that" is some random 3-digit integer) is in base-13.' kind of thinking. For most people it's not ideal to have different systems in different scope/gun combos just because you're liable to be loaning the 2nd one off to your shooting buddy and then you have a day where it's Funker and Nick arguing about how to zero a rifle for 30 minutes and no amount of competence on one side is going to unscrew the other side.
    Why the fuck are you doing any of that?
     

    spamassassin

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    Why the fuck are you doing any of that?
    For the very simple reason that not everyone I go shooting or talk guns with with uses just one standard and since I'm the most knowledgable and the most capable in the group I tend to do the spotter's job. Also, when people don't know something they ask me and I have learned that you need to speak in the language your audience is expecting when you're dropping knowledge on them. Most people simply don't have the intellectual ability to even accept the fact that using 1 is not a damned bit different when it comes down to it to using another. Most people are so knuckle dragging dumb that they'll say shit like, "Well, I understand MOA." which instantly tells you that they're that dumb and that they don't understand angular systems of measurement at all but it also doesn't cause them to vapor lock when you say "increase your wind hold by 2 minutes" after I've seen their bullet splash .6mils off the center. Doing the math in my head stops my less mathematically inclined friends and I from sounding like Funk and Nick trying to zero a rifle.
     

    Rob01

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    And here's a perfect example of someone who thinks he understand but doesn't

    Yup anyone who brings linear into an angular conversation shows they like to make their life harder and don’t understand how to use the angular. Every time.
     

    308pirate

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    For the very simple reason that not everyone I go shooting or talk guns with with uses just one standard and since I'm the most knowledgable and the most capable in the group I tend to do the spotter's job.
    I am more selective. Too old to give a fuck about those who ride the short bus.


    Also, when people don't know something they ask me and I have learned that you need to speak in the language your audience is expecting when you're dropping knowledge on them.
    I don't spoon feed people. If they get it they get it, if they don't fuck it.


    Most people simply don't have the intellectual ability to even accept the fact that using 1 is not a damned bit different when it comes down to it to using another.
    Not my problem


    Most people are so knuckle dragging dumb that they'll say shit like, "Well, I understand MOA." which instantly tells you that they're that dumb and that they don't understand angular systems of measurement at all
    Ditto
     

    DEFarmboy

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    I target shoot and hunt with both MOA and MRAD. Most of my MOA scopes are SFP and my MRAD scopes are FFP. I can make the jump back and forth very easily. Just make sure your ballistic app and range finders with ballistics are on the right settings.
     

    Old Man with Gun

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    I have both and it dosen't bother me a bit going back and forth. I use a laser range finder, so it is not like I am using the reticle to measure stuff. Reticle is just reference for wind, drop, lead or where the splash is.
     
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    Str8shuutr45

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    Well, I guess the answer is clear, my reticle shave become Balkanized. I have too much invested in MOA to just have a yard sale. I’ll just have to pull up my Depends and shoot both. It’ll add a little spice to my life, like Old Bay Seasoning on deviled eggs. I enjoy this forum just because of the differences in opinion.
     

    huntnh

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    Go mil especially for longer range shooting. Lower numbers better system. I do still own a few moa scopes from back in the day mostly
    On hunting rifles they work fine for the purpose
     

    JG26_Irish

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    My take is that they both serve a purpose and excel in certain applications:

    MOA - better in some cases when shooting precision benchrest where you are going to zero once for some distance and never or rarely change it. For those I like a 2FP MOA with 1/8 MOA turrets. This allows me to dial for fine wind or ammo adjustments and still be spot on. The 2FP means that the reticle is not going to get magnified at max magnification. A simple cross hair or tgt dot is sufficient or at most a duplex. This is also OK for hunting rifles that will not be dialed for variable range but for hunting I do like having the hold over hash marks. I hunt in the Eastern States and we almost never get to shoot long range at game. Exceptions being groundhogs, coyotes and if I get to go west for PD's.

    MIL - pretty much everything else. It is far better IMO for long distance variable range hunting where you are glassing and lasing to get the range on the quarry and never know going out what to expect. Long range PRS style, target matches or steel where you are dialing back and forth from close to far. My PRS rimfire and SHTF rifle both have the same type of FFP MIL optics. I do find the fine Christmas tree reticles to be hard to see the center when dialed out and too busy when dialed in but it is a compromise that I can live with to get the better, faster, more precise ability to dial for distance as opposed to holdover. That is more important with rimfire PRS than centerfire at the distances I can shoot in KY 1000y or less most of the time. 500y or less the vast majority of the time.

    I routinely use both. Rimfire squirrel rifles are all MOA as are rimfire BR rifles. Most hunting rifles too with exception of the long range items. PRS rifles are all FFP MIL.
     

    MadDuner

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    Using the applied ballistics app on theold android phone, I have a hunting rifle with Viper scope in MOA but my target rifle in MRAD. The app gives you the output in whatever system you put in you are using for that particular build so there's no worries about figuring things out.
    Strelok gives me both.
     
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    Str8shuutr45

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    My take is that they both serve a purpose and excel in certain applications:

    MOA - better in some cases when shooting precision benchrest where you are going to zero once for some distance and never or rarely change it. For those I like a 2FP MOA with 1/8 MOA turrets. This allows me to dial for fine wind or ammo adjustments and still be spot on. The 2FP means that the reticle is not going to get magnified at max magnification. A simple cross hair or tgt dot is sufficient or at most a duplex. This is also OK for hunting rifles that will not be dialed for variable range but for hunting I do like having the hold over hash marks. I hunt in the Eastern States and we almost never get to shoot long range at game. Exceptions being groundhogs, coyotes and if I get to go west for PD's.

    MIL - pretty much everything else. It is far better IMO for long distance variable range hunting where you are glassing and lasing to get the range on the quarry and never know going out what to expect. Long range PRS style, target matches or steel where you are dialing back and forth from close to far. My PRS rimfire and SHTF rifle both have the same type of FFP MIL optics. I do find the fine Christmas tree reticles to be hard to see the center when dialed out and too busy when dialed in but it is a compromise that I can live with to get the better, faster, more precise ability to dial for distance as opposed to holdover. That is more important with rimfire PRS than centerfire at the distances I can shoot in KY 1000y or less most of the time. 500y or less the vast majority of the time.

    I routinely use both. Rimfire squirrel rifles are all MOA as are rimfire BR rifles. Most hunting rifles too with exception of the long range items. PRS rifles are all FFP MIL.
    Thanks for this insight. I also appreciate the other’s input on BC for the phone. I’ve D/L StrelokPro but haven’t used it much.
     

    rottenruger

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    I have been shooting with MOA based scopes for a number of years. It seems like most of the good glass is exclusively MRAD. In the "everyone's got an opinion category", how difficult is it to operate both systems? I know the calculations for ranging are different but it's only math. Does anyone have rifles with MOA and MRAD scopes or have you just stuck with one or the other.
    I'm interested what people think because I've had the opportunity to shoot some gongs a 800 yds and now I'm hooked. I recently purchased a Sig Cross PRS in 308 and am thinking of going with a Vortex Razor GII with EB7C reticle in MRAD.
    Thanks in advance.
    In the precision shooting classes I periodically attend, I am told a "GOOD" shooter will know both and know them well. I resist it, I started out MOA and I don't do well at multi-tasking at 72 years. Some folks can ace it at 100, I can't.

    I have some of each, and when I hop back on a MRAD i can easily get screwed up unless it's got a simple REASONABLE reticle. So many reticles these days look like binary bullshit, they're so complicated. I'm just looking to shoot a commie from a 1000, NOT shoot the moon!

    If YOU are young, I would recommenD learning both, and well. The people who tell me this is the way to go are the people who KNOW!
     

    timk311

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    In the precision shooting classes I periodically attend, I am told a "GOOD" shooter will know both and know them well. I resist it, I started out MOA and I don't do well at multi-tasking at 72 years. Some folks can ace it at 100, I can't.

    I have some of each, and when I hop back on a MRAD i can easily get screwed up unless it's got a simple REASONABLE reticle. So many reticles these days look like binary bullshit, they're so complicated. I'm just looking to shoot a commie from a 1000, NOT shoot the moon!

    If YOU are young, I would recommenD learning both, and well. The people who tell me this is the way to go are the people who KNOW!
    LOL yes! I agree about all the "binary" reticles. All those tree style nonsense is just another current fad only useful for guys on the range doing competition shooting on steel plates
    In the real world when we see Chinese or UN troops (or whoever the NWO/Great Reset bootlickers end up being) on US soil, a good ol standard hashed duplex will do great
     

    rottenruger

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    LOL yes! I agree about all the "binary" reticles. All those tree style nonsense is just another current fad only useful for guys on the range doing competition shooting on steel plates
    In the real world when we see Chinese or UN troops (or whoever the NWO/Great Reset bootlickers end up being) on US soil, a good ol standard hashed duplex will do great
    Sure the hell works for me...............................UN Blue Uniforms are TARGETS OF OPORTUNITY. Period.
     

    MarshallDodge

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    I'm in the crowd that has both because it doesn't matter to me, and haven't really wanted to change out scopes that I have been using for 20+ years. The ballistics app spits out both.

    One set of friends shoot MOA scopes and another is MIL. If I am spotting and using the opposite type, I do the math in my head to give them the correct data.
     

    308pirate

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    I'm in the crowd that has both because it doesn't matter to me, and haven't really wanted to change out scopes that I have been using for 20+ years. The ballistics app spits out both.

    One set of friends shoot MOA scopes and another is MIL. If I am spotting and using the opposite type, I do the math in my head to give them the correct data.

    I just tell the MOA guys "you're a little low/high/left/right"