Muzzle hops to the left- help me diagnose it please

[SBRSarge]

My question;
Shooting prone, I tried to load the bipod but it always just scooted away from me. It’s a Harris with the standard feet on rough concrete. I concentrated on pulling with the firing hand’s middle fingers, laying the thumb along the receiver, and supporting the butt on the rear bag with my support hand holding it tight. Upon firing, the muzzle hops to the left. I am right handed. I guess at least the hop to the left is consistent!

Is there a common cause for this?


The back story;
I’ve been shooting for about 45 years, self taught. I’ve been watching the videos here on prone shooting (support hand and firing hand roles, for instance) and found that my shooting style kind of sucks. I’m get excited when I shoot 1.25” at 100yds, and I usually see 1.5” to 2”. Smaller groups of around an inch are occasional occurrences at best. Sub 1 inch groups pretty much never happen.

I bought some Black Hills 40gr V-Max loads (blue box) and went out today and tried to apply what I gleaned from the prone shooting vids. I shot my three best groups ever, .4, .52 and .8 inches for five shot groups at 100yds. I am ecstatic. I will hug Frank if ever we meet. I mean, in a manly way, of course, you know...! But now I wonder how much better I can do. And yes, I will be seeking out some training either through Snipers Hide or the Marksmanship Training Center here in Michigan.

I built the gun. It is a 16” 5.56 (or 223 Wylde, maybe) Wilson barrel in a Sun Devil matched receiver group. Sig direct thread 556 can. Nightforce 2.5-20 scope. Geissele SD-E trigger. I put it all together and am pretty damn proud of it!

Thanks for any help, and have a blessed day.
SBRSarge

 

[Gustav7]

Have you reloaded at all for it?

When I built my AR, I bought some black hills 69 and 77gr match ammo. I was expecting it to shoot lights out and it didn't....well, I didn't lol. It took me a little while to learn to shoot my AR better, and I'm still improving..

Big things I've changed over the last year since I've gotten my first precision bolt gun... the way I position my body. I used to tense up, wasn't behind the rifle straight, and would force my reticle on target.

I can't stress enough about natural point of aim, and being relaxed behind the gun.

I''m sure a more experienced shooter will comment as well to your specific situation.

 

[SBRSarge]

Sold my reloading kit about 30 years ago. Wishing I had it back now!

Thanks for the thoughts. I have made do, and been content, for years with minute-of-deer or minute-of cat accuracy. I know there’s more out there for me to achieve and welcome any thoughts/tips I can get.

 

[stello1001]

It seems as if the larger groups sizes are caused by shitty ammo. At least it seems that way because as soon as you tried those 40 vmax loads you were instantly sub moa...

 

[Matches Malone]

Common cause is poor fundemendals and specifically recoil management.

Work on you trigger press, natural point of aim, and relaxing your shoulder. Muscular tension with change the firing sequence. Also watch your cheek pressure.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Gotta get straight back behind the rifle, scooch your pelvis to the right a tad.

 

[Gustav7]

Gotta get straight back behind the rifle, scooch your pelvis to the right a tad.

I had to have someone correct me a few times on this. I felt like I was behind it and turned out I wasn’t. Had to remember to scoot my ass over until I felt weird then I knew I was right lol

 

[hereinaz]

Straight behind, square shoulder and relaxed, and cheek pressure. That's what pushes the stock to the right/down and muzzle left and up.

 

[SBRSarge]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I’ll return to the range and concentrate on the suggestions. I’ll shoot some other rounds also and see how much difference the 40gr V-max loads are making.

I might video myself shooting a group and use that for self-diagnosis. I’d post the vid here for critique, but I’m afraid the Women of the Hide would see it and start stalking me relentlessly...

Thanks again!

 

[Changed]

Bring the butt of the rifle on to your clavicle. As close to your neck as possible. You want to lay your head forward, not roll it to the side as when shooting from the pocket.

Make sure you are straight inline with the rifle. You want to be able to draw a straight line from the barrel through your body. All parallel.

Do not float your thumb on an AR. Wrap your entire hand around the grip.

Load your bipod.Pull to the rear with the the same pressure as the weight of the rifle.

when you fire, pull through the trigger and hold it to the rear until you are back on target. Then allow the trigger to reset.

 

[rustyinbend]

I had to have someone correct me a few times on this. I felt like I was behind it and turned out I wasn’t. Had to remember to scoot my ass over until I felt weird then I knew I was right lol

"Scooting your ass" ... "until (you) felt weird" ... then you "knew it was right". Did I accidentally click on the wrong forum ???

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Setting up your cell phone to shoot a couple movies might help....really enlightened me to watch myself and scrutinize my habits and technique. People can tell 'ya but there is no substitute for seeing yourself do it. Like combing your hair - someone can tell you how but you need to look in a mirror to get it done right the first 300 times.

This is why there are mirrors in Dojos and Dance Studios.

VooDoo

 

[308pirate]

Sold my reloading kit about 30 years ago. Wishing I had it back now!

Ammo is not your problem. Years of self taught bad habits is.

The advice to fix your prone position and alignment behind the rifle is solid. I would still seek training because it can be time consuming and expensive to fumble around burning ammo trying this that and the other until you finally figure out how "straight behind the rifle" really is and feels like.

I figured it out on my own but I am now smart enough to realize it would have been much faster and cheaper to pay for a day or two of coaching.

 

[Gustav7]

"Scooting your ass" ... "until (you) felt weird" ... then you "knew it was right". Did I accidentally click on the wrong forum ???

Damn I knew someone would take it that way ... and of course it’s a marine lol

 

[rustyinbend]

Damn I knew someone would take it that way ... and of course it’s a marine lol

LOL ... Old habits die hard.

 

[SBRSarge]

Tips and vids are great. I can’t thank you all enough.

Second trip out went well. Consistent sub moa with the good ammo. I had ten rounds of the Black Hills 77 otm left in my ammo box and got .6 and .9 inch five shot groups.

Other ammo’s groups tightened a bit. My department’s duty load, the Federal LE223T3 edged under 1.5” which I have never gotten it to do.

Tono’s last vid was especially helpful. In the second part he addresses my issue of the rubber Harris bipod feet slipping on the concrete.

I’m not used to/comfortable with pulling the butt so far inboard onto my clavicle. I’ve always tucked the butt into the pocket of my shoulder. I Might need to fatten up and get some padding there.

On a great note, I found a good price on 700 rounds of Black Hills ammo (350 blue box 40 V-Max and 350 77gr OTM) so I won’t have to fret about exhausting my ammo stock for a bit.

Thanks again!

 

[Precision Underground]

Years of testing rear bags has made this my truth. Not saying this is the only way but for me it’s the most consistent and easiest to replicate if things start to get off.

Don’t try to load the bipod. Lay straight behind the rifle face down in the dirt as if you are dead. Now use your back muscles to lift your head and shoulders up high enough to address the rifle. When you do this you will feel your core press into the ground. This is the connection to the ground you are looking for. Thats how you need to address the rifle, not on elbows, not laying on the stock. So you’re laying straight behind the rifle, back muscles pulling up, core pressing into the ground..... now pull the rifle straight into a RELAXED shoulder. Pull STRAIGHT into your shoulder. That’s where you’re aiming. That’s your NPA. Do not change your aim with the bag or by pulling any direction except straight in. The importance of this can not be stressed enough. Move your feet and hips to adjust your aim until a straight in pull leaves you on target. When you move your feet and hips your core/shoulders/the rifle will follow. Keep doing this and pulling straight in until you are on target. Once you are on target slide the bag under the rifle gently and put a SMALL amt of cheek pressure on it to lock your aim in. Your body position gets you on target as the rifle is an extension of you. The bag/slight cheek pressure is used to make the reticle be still, NOT to aim the rifle. Again, the rear bag is not for aiming. It’s for making the reticle be still once you are on your NPA.

So what you are feeling is back muscles keeping you up enough to address the rifle which is pressing your core down Into the ground; firing hand bicep pulling rifle straight into a relaxed shoulder; mild cheek pressure steadying the aim that is coming from your relaxed shoulder/body position. Now the rifle is pointing at the target because it’s part of you and you are pointing at the target. It won’t come off target under recoil because there are no up, down, left, right forces to push it off target. It’s 100% neutral and part of you. That’s natural point of aim and IMO the most important fundamental.

Right now my guess is your aim is pretty much 100% derived from the rear bag and bipod while you are laying on the rifle. You aren’t part of the system. You don’t have a natural point of aim because the rifle is in a rest made up of the bipod and the bag. Under recoil the rifle can easily sink further into the bag (reticle up and left)... or the recoil path is blocked and reflected back into the rifle causing it to hop. Don’t connect the rifle to the ground through the bag. That’s an artificial aim. Connect the rifle to the ground through you.

 

[SBRSarge]

Precision,

Thanks for taking the time for the detailed reply. And you are way too right about.. “Right now my guess is your aim is pretty much 100% derived from the rear bag and bipod while you are laying on the rifle“. There is a lot of rear bag fondling going on when I shoot. (I can see this will go south fairly quickly.) And I know I tend to tighten up everything, including my shoulder.

More things to work on! Guess I need to head to the range on my next pass days!

 

[Precision Underground]

Precision,

Thanks for taking the time for the detailed reply. And you are way too right about.. “Right now my guess is your aim is pretty much 100% derived from the rear bag and bipod while you are laying on the rifle“. There is a lot of rear bag fondling going on when I shoot. (I can see this will go south fairly quickly.) And I know I tend to tighten up everything, including my shoulder.

More things to work on! Guess I need to head to the range on my next pass days!

I’d say DON’T go to the range. Spend a few days(or more) getting set up and dry firing. Live rounds will complicate what you are trying to do. Focus on the pressures I posted above and being able to replicate the position on demand. Back muscles up, core down, everything else relaxed except firing side bicep pulling straight into relaxed shoulder. Pick a target and practice shifting your feet/hips around to get you on it without deviating from a straight in pull. When you get it right it won’t look/feel as stable as mashing the stock down into the bag with your face. But the key is to give the rifle a dead weight to connect to. This will control recoil and give it a 100% consistent platform to interact with. When people are on their elbows and/or mashing down into the bag it’s never going to be the same pressures twice and there is no mass to control recoil.

 

[theLBC]

although you want to be square, every body is different.
put a soft foam pad between you and the butt. fire one.
if it doesn't jump left with the soft backstop, your setup may not be square behind the rifle, or at least not where the butt meets your shoulder pocket.

 

[SBRSarge]

I’d say DON’T go to the range. Spend a few days(or more) getting set up and dry firing. Live rounds will complicate what you are trying to do. Focus on the pressures I posted above and being able to replicate the position on demand. Back muscles up, core down, everything else relaxed except firing side bicep pulling straight into relaxed shoulder. Pick a target and practice shifting your feet/hips around to get you on it without deviating from a straight in pull. When you get it right it won’t look/feel as stable as mashing the stock down into the bag with your face. But the key is to give the rifle a dead weight to connect to. This will control recoil and give it a 100% consistent platform to interact with. When people are on their elbows and/or mashing down into the bag it’s never going to be the same pressures twice and there is no mass to control recoil.

Thanks again PURG,

I’ve got a nice setup I use for dry fire in my house. Berber carpet holds the bipod secure and there is a tree 80 yards behind the house with a nice knot for a target. As a bonus, I could roll open the french doors and snipe a few deer from here come the season.

 

[napt0wnc1ty99]

Anyone else think the Harris might be an issue? (On top of the other discussion points already stated)

Even going up to a V8 would be an upgrade.

 

[Precision Underground]

Anyone else think the Harris might be an issue? (On top of the other discussion points already stated)

Even going up to a V8 would be an upgrade.

A Harris is not optimal but swapping it isn’t going to matter if fundamentals aren’t there. An Atlas will hop just the same without getting set up correctly.

I would say as $100 bipods go you can’t beat the Magpul. It has some play in it like the Atlas which adds a *little bit* of forgiveness. Guys like to down it for whatever reason but for $100 or even less you can’t do better. I could hook one on and control recoil 100% as good as I can with a CAL.

 

[napt0wnc1ty99]

A Harris is not optimal but swapping it isn’t going to matter if fundamentals aren’t there. An Atlas will hop just the same without getting set up correctly.

I would say as $100 bipods go you can’t beat the Magpul. It has some play in it like the Atlas which adds a *little bit* of forgiveness. Guys like to down it for whatever reason but for $100 or even less you can’t do better. I could hook one on and control recoil 100% as good as I can with a CAL.

100% agree on fundamentals needing to be there. I’ve seen quite a bit of guys have an un-squared Harris just add to frustration. Muzzle hop, canted, etc.

For the money I can’t hate on Magpul. I don’t use it on my bolt gun though.

I also remembered I wanted to buy a hoodie from you.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Did anybody tell him what to do when it bounces to the left?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

You know when it comes to a fundamental problem there are probably dozens of people that have started this same topic. If LL had data back to 2001 it will probably be over a hundred threads just on recoil bouncing the muzzle to the left. It will be something exerting force to the right where stock meets shooter. An example of many such threads...

F T/R Competition - Recoil to the Left ???

I thought I'd post this here among the serious prone shooters for some feedback. I'm still trying to figure out my prone technique, unfortunately by myself for the most part, and it's difficult to know what I'm doing right and doing wrong. Here's what I think is my biggest problem and leading...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Deleted member 10043]

And we start to get the picture...

F T/R Competition - Recoil to the Left ???

I thought I'd post this here among the serious prone shooters for some feedback. I'm still trying to figure out my prone technique, unfortunately by myself for the most part, and it's difficult to know what I'm doing right and doing wrong. Here's what I think is my biggest problem and leading...

www.snipershide.com

 

[UpSideDown]

I judge myself harshly when I shoot precision bolt actions. I do not judge myself harshly when I shoot AR's. They are a different animal that I do not try to chase the utmost accuracy out of. That is not to say that AR's can't be very precise, but shooting an AR is very different from shooting a bolt gun, and I don't treat them the same.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

And...

 

[Precision Underground]

I judge myself harshly when I shoot precision bolt actions. I do not judge myself harshly when I shoot AR's. They are a different animal that I do not try to chase the utmost accuracy out of. That is not to say that AR's can't be very precise, but shooting an AR is very different from shooting a bolt gun, and I don't treat them the same.

If you can get the rifle connected to you correctly and yourself connected to the ground/table an AR is easier to shoot than a bolt gun. Guys will disagree with this but some may not know what they don’t know. The difference is the bolt gun is one intense pulse of recoil. The gas gun as a less intense, longer pulse. If you are in a good position and following through the gas gun becomes easier and more pleasant to shoot. I’d rather deal with X amount of force for 1 second than the same amount of force for 1/4 of a second. But you have to be present and in control the whole time or you’ll be all over the place.

When I shoot a large frame that’s tuned well it feels like the recoil takes 3 seconds but I’m watching the target and in control the whole time. Guys have trouble with gas guns because they aren’t in a good enough position and they can’t stay with it long enough. On a bolt gun you can just hang on and black out through recoil with little follow through and still shoot well. A gas gun will show you those weaknesses because you have to be present while you are on the ride. If you black out and aren’t in control it’s no good.

 

[HousePlant]

My 6.5 CM and 308 rifles hop left on a bipod if I'm not supporting at the shoulder or if the shoulder pressure isn't firm or more like off on the edge of my shoulder which results in the rifle following the path of least resistance and sliding right at the butt resulting in the muzzle moving left. When I do firmly support, they hop upward. I put a brake on that is designed to hold the muzzle down (not just disperse the gases left and right) and that helped a lot. I just did a PRS match with the 6.5 CM this brake and it was the first time I was able to consistently see my impact -- but only if I did a good job of shouldering and somewhat pressing the gun down from the scope tube. All the guys with the little 6mm rifles barely saw any rifle movement, haha.

 

[Lowlight]

It's a fundamental issue, being that even the Army added recoil management to the fundamentals for their sniper training

Bouncing is a big problem for many, but then again very few have any kind of education in shooting. Most just repeat what they saw in an image or video, and out of context that creates a new set of problems for them.

If you are seeing "hop" with a 556 you have serious fundamental issues to correct. That said, the equipment has a bearing on this, as most use bargain-basement products and then expect expert results from a single outing. What bipod you use is as well as the rear bag is every bit as important as how you use it.

We invented loading the bipod, I have 100s of hours on the topic, and of course, over time as things change how we address this has changed also. Most people incorrectly think loading the bipod comes from the shoulders, or put their shoulder into the load. They push everything forward and that is not loading the bipod. Loading the bipod is about taking the slack out of the bipod system. Different bipods have a different amount of slack and have different methods for doing this successfully, or in many cases more efficiently. How you do it is bipod dependent, and with a really light recoiling rifle you can get away with a lot.

The easiest way to address this, is, bring the body high behind the rifle, and settle into it. A load comes for your core and not your shoulders. You are stacking your weight, thus your body behind the rifle system. It's your belt buckle not the shoulders.

Then you have to support the rear of the rifle, you need to hold that, not just the bag. Recoil is like electricity it follows the path of least resistance. Any exit you give it, the recoil will exploit. That is usually at the shoulder so the recoil will travel down, exploit the joint and then head back and bounce or move out of position.

I have tons of video on the subject, some more detailed than others, but bottom line, if you watched all the videos and still have an issue, you need credible instruction because you are missing key elements in your deciphering of the information being put forward.

 

[SBRSarge]

LL,

Thanks. I’m taking in all I can find from your videos. So much to digest!

The latest range session saw much less hop and it is heartening to see progress. I am grateful for this resource.

On a related note, is there a way to upgrade into the online training without doing paypal?

 

[Klemm]

Bring the butt of the rifle on to your clavicle. As close to your neck as possible. You want to lay your head forward, not roll it to the side as when shooting from the pocket.

Make sure you are straight inline with the rifle. You want to be able to draw a straight line from the barrel through your body. All parallel.

Do not float your thumb on an AR. Wrap your entire hand around the grip.

Load your bipod.Pull to the rear with the the same pressure as the weight of the rifle.

when you fire, pull through the trigger and hold it to the rear until you are back on target. Then allow the trigger to reset.

This^^^^^^
You will be surprised how solid it will feel

 

[Halfnutz]

@SBRSarge

The online training will give you some solid examples and cues on this.

One explanation on loading the bipod I found helpful is to slightly "tuck" your hips at the belt buckle forward vs using your shoulders as LL mentioned. I bought an Atlas, but I still have a Harris as well, this micro adjustment will help even on the Harris.