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Gunsmithing My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

81sfo

81sfo

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Minuteman
    • Aug 5, 2008
    2,769
    380
    USA HOU TX
    Well this "THING" arrived on friday,it looked awesome at first.Then i looked closer and closer!My new stock was craked on the inside and the bedding was horrible.My first bedding job was not even nearly as bad as this was.Pits ,voids ,cracks ,flakes.I saw that the bedding was extremely long after the recoil lug,under the barrel.My shot groups proved that this type of bedding was not good for accuracy.Ive discussed this with the smith and he insists this is merely cosmetic.Or unacceptable?The new Mcmillian stock was craked on the inside bridge that separates the mag box from the trigger.Ive started mending it with MARINE TEX, because i have no intentions of sending back this rifle to the smith,this was his first impression and i no longer have trust in his work.What would be the correct action to take in this matter?Should i have to pay him for this incompetent work?Im not going to disclose his name, but i can only say that he is a national known gunsmith, my intentions are not to burn him .Please shoot me your opinions.thanks in advance.
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    Notice the lenght of the bedding in front of the recoil lug.
    Ive started removing the bedding compound.Ive repaired the inside crack with MARINE TEX.Im also beefing up the front wall near the front guard screw hole.the pillars that i provided werent installed.The Mcmillian stock was inleted for pillars but instead they were filled with bedding compound!Since the mag box opening was enlarged by the smith i have to beef up the wll in order to install the pillars .theres not much room left after he milled out that space excessively.

    Here the best groups from 200 yds with 168 FGMM, notice the stringing upwards as the barrel heats up.I belive this action is capable of great accuracy ,when i finish fixing the bedding of the stock.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Ive started removing the bedding compound carefully and i will install some Holland pillars this week.I think i can still save this stock.
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    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    that's horse shit, redo or refund, period. I wouldn't claim that abomination if I did it. Shit, i've done better with JB weld. looks like too much hardener to me, or he let it setup too long, cause it is brittle. It's just like bondo on a car... once it flakes, you're fucked, it's all gonna go. That shit needs to be ground out and redone. Besides, his inlet on the TG looks like a monkey dancing with a die grinder.

    If this is a big name smith, he should be all over fixing it. If not, turn 'em and burn 'em, and go somewhere else.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I havent payed the bill in full, im debating on how much he should credit me back for his bedding job and the cracked stock..I sent him a deposit in the begining of this build along with my parts.I recievd the rifle this past friday along with an invoice of the balance due.
    Sending the rifle back to him is out of the question ,im going to do the bedding myself! I will have it finished by next weekend if my pillars arrive in a timeley manner.More pics will follow when im done as well as range groups.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    That is some fucked up shit!!! My first bedding job looked a million times better than that! Dont pay him a single penny more, in fact, get all of your money back!
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I know that a lot of the time bedding jobs dont look real pretty and they dont have to. This one looks terrible. All it needs to do is get the job dont and this has not done that. Dont know what to tell ya. I would never have let anything go out that looked that. Matter of fact i might have (wanted to) fired the person that did it!
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I would be highly teed off if it was my rifle! I would certainly not pay a cent more and would demand a refund and an apology.

    Off the subject, what barrel do you have, caliber and barrel length?
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    The only thing worse than the substandard bedding job is your gunsmith's insistence that is it merely cosmetic.

    He is either technically incompetent or believes that you are an imbecile and can be made to believe anything. An outrage in either case.



     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    You've trusted this guy with an expensive piece of kit.

    You have every right to expect it back in the same condition as you gave it to him with the work done to an acceptable and professional standard.

    If it were me I would not pay him for it and I'd expect him to replace ALL the damaged parts at his expense so that you can get the work done somewhere else.

    If he has a reputation to protect he has as much - if not more - to lose than you do.

    Is there any protection under consumer law or trading standards in the US? Something like the BBB if it goes badly wrong and you can't get a satisfactory resolution?

    Good luck with it!
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I would not pay him and also i would let every one one this forum know who the butcher was that fucked up your rifle.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I never expected this kinds of work to have come from him ,thats why i chose him to do my rifle.I wanted to have George to do this build but it was when they were swamped and could not take any more work.
    I believed "the smith" that he knew what a Spec USMC M40a3 was,after this build ive changed my mind about his knowledge on USMC rifles.The crown isnt USMC M40a3 spec,he didnt stamp my bolt handle with the last four of my serial number eighter.I have to find another gunsmith who can fix it these details and maybe get a little closer to a Spec rifle.I hate the fact that i had to wait to get this rifle back, definitely no worth the time.
    Thank you for your opinions and please keep them coming.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I would not be happy with the delivered project. The bedding looks like it was done with a stick and a rock.

    Even if the rifle shot bug holes every group, cosmetics DO count for a lot in a rifle built by a professional shop. The stock inlet does not even look correct for whatever bottom metal you have.

    Do not send it back to the same shop. I would have someone inspect the barrel and action work also. If the same person built the whole rifle, logic brings me to think that the chambering and machine work was possibly completed with the same flair for detail.

    I hate to say this at your expense but you know it's going to come from somebody anyway during this thread. ***If GAP is swamped, and that shop wasn't. . . . THERE'S A REASON!

    I don't know who the shop is, don't care and don't mean to "pile on" but that work should not be viewed as representative of what a consumer should expect from a top shelf rifle shop. Seems obvious but there are a lot of people new to the custom rifle scene that come here for info and details of why some of this work is suppossed to be worth the price shops charge.

    You need to make sure your shop gets your critique. I don't know what you were suppossed to pay for that job so I can't have an opinion about balance owed. If your workorder had $50.00 you probably go what you paid for. I would have someone check the headspace, pull the barrel, inspect the threads, lug seats, crown and counterbore. If they were not done right, I would not only refrain from paying a balance but request a refund on the money already paid.

    Just my opinion. Everybody has one. blah, blah. . . . ..

    TC
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    ...and I thought my first bedding job looked bad! I see all the signs of a job that was hastily completed.

    Fortunately epoxy is not difficult to remove with a Dremel, and even if you gouge the stock it will be coated in epoxy anyway...
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Just a further thought on this.....can you get a second opinion/report from another smith and an estimate of the cost to get back to where you want/need to be on this rifle?

    Put that in front of the guy and tell him how it's going to be.

    I read a report done by Peter Laidler on an old Mk32 Scope that had been butchered that was posted on a Canadian website...I tried to find the link but can't just now...if I find it I'll post it..it is a really good read!

    FOUND IT...HERE YOU GO:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173/message/1142880788/RESPONSE+FROM+PETER+LAIDLER


     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Ouch not good i would call them and let them know of the work and ask for a refund of what you paid for that and send it to KMW or GAP and get it done right!!
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    That's amazing, If I was the gunsmith (if you can really call that person a gunsmith) that did that I would have sent that rifle to be done right with money out of my own pocket before I would have gave it back to the customer like that.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 81sfo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well this "THING" arrived on friday,it looked awesome at first.Then i looked closer and closer!My new stock was craked on the inside and the bedding was horrible.
    What would be the correct action to take in this matter?Should i have to pay him for this incompetent work?Im not going to disclose his name, but i can only say that he is a national known gunsmith, my intentions are not to burn him .Please shoot me your opinions.thanks in advance. </div></div>

    You do no one any good by withholding the name of the so-called smith. And to suggest he's nationally known? Bullshit. A smith with a national reputation wouldn't let such a shit piece of work out the door. Unless all his customers are too gutless to blow the whistle on the hack. In which case, you deserve what you get.

    To trust that this bum did anything properly, including the important stuff like chambering and fitting the barrel, is naive at best, and dangerous at worst.

    You should demand a refund in full, and then figure out what it will cost to undo his abortion, and get him to pay you that too. But you'd rather not "burn" him. Congrats on being part of the problem.

    Like a thieving mechanic, just a parasite on polite society.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I gotta agree with Nate.

    No sense not naming folks who send this kind of shit out the door.

    They are either inept, or just plain don't give a fuck. Naming them should "motivate" them to make it right, and get their shit together, if they wish to be taken seriously in our circle.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I gotta agree with Nate.

    No sense not naming folks who send this kind of shit out the door.

    They are either inept, or just plain don't give a fuck. Naming them should "motivate" them to make it right, and get their shit together, if they wish to be taken seriously in our circle. </div></div>

    Gotta 2nd that! Damn man, that just looks horrible and this comes from a guy that doesn't really know shit about 'smithing. That BM inletting? WTF!?
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Its along the lines of the truth is the truth. Nothing more nothing less. It is not as if you were delivered a perfect job and took a hammer to it to tear it up. You see many Smiths work on here for being top notch day in and day out. If their work was compromised their reputations would not be what they are. Even if your Smith has guys working under him he still should be doing the quality control since it is going out the door with his name on it. So you can not be faulted for that. this would not be slander. It is your opinion of his work.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Guys, I've spoken with 81Sfo about this a time or two in PM, what he really was looking for is two things. #1 was if anyone thought the work was in any way acceptable and just cosmetic and #2 what he should owe the smith if anything. I know who the smith is, please don't pm me for more info, I'll name the hack publicly if it becomes needed. However....he really is nationally known....sadly.

    So, we know the work sucks, that is now a given.\

    On to #2, what should he pay for what was done? I know that Jose has paid $1000 up to this point, I think the smith supplied the barrel, chambered and installed it so assuming that's okay then we'll call it $650? Clip slotting and base another $350 maybe? So there is the $1,000 that Jose has into it.....I wouldn't pay him a penny more even though the balance due is $1100+. Jose asked for M5 BM and he got DD Ross BM....I think if it was me I'd mail the smith back the BM that I didn't ask for and tell him we're even, that should cover the shipping...now go to hell.

    I also know that the smith blamed some of the shotty work on McMillan, saying the stock was a bastard. Well I had one stock that had issues....and my smith offered to send it to McMillan to be repaired....why didn't this one?? If the stock was that bad then it shouldn't have been butchered more, it should have been returned while that was still possible.

    Lastly!! In the $1100+ that is still "owed" according to the smith....$600 of it is for bedding!! $600 for that crap?

    Anyway, I hope that Jose sends a link to this thread to the smith, I don't think he's a member here and I doubt he'd chime in if he was, but if Jose doesn't then I will.....and then I'll name him....in a thread dedicated in his honor.

    Jason
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....I also know that the smith blamed some of the shotty work on McMillan, saying the stock was a bastard.....$600 of it is for bedding!!....</div></div>


    Wow. The stock must have mystical voodoo powers that took over control of the 'smiths hands.

    The floorplate inlet does look like it must have been for a different floorplate though. My experience with McMillan inletting has been as close to perfect as possible.

    $600 seems like robbery. Isn't $150-200 the typical fee for a pillar bedding job these days?
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    The stock was inletted for a Badger M5. Yes, 600 for a Bed job is nuts. 81 and I have been PMing back and fourth since the beginning of this project. I feel bad for him- this "smith" suckerd him in with a supposed 2week turn around, only for it to take months, and the end result to be this.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    GAP wants $235 for a bed job.........hmmmmm....I've never seen a GAP one be anything less than perfect.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    This is a joke right??? They actually sent you an invoice with that gun??? Tell ya what send it to me and ill have my 11 years old throw it together and it will look better than that...

    You should tell everyone WHO THIS SHIT SHITH IS!!! Thats just fucked up....
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I would be really interested in knowing who the smith that did this work. Is this a local smith?
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Sorry to see such crappy workmanship.. if you can even refer to it as workmanship.. awful

    Merlinn
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I would have him pay another smith to fix it, I'd also ask about those pillars. If he refuses compensate you for the repairs that now need to be done I'd put his name out in the open. You'd be doing everyone a service so he doesn't butcher their stick like he did yours.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    That is a shame for the quality of work that you recieved , but don't withhold the name of the TURD who did it . As for paying him the rest of the balance , that is a no brainer . Sorry for your loss .
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I understand you don't want to burn him because it will make completeing this that much more difficult. I'd give him a week to make arrangements for it to be redone BY SOMEONE ELSE, or call it even and cut the losses. If he won't even give you the time of day, torch him. The community deserves the knowledge of who to avoid, you might save some other guy from the same fate.

    I would have someone inspect the barrel work before you put it near your face with a small bomb inside it again. I hope for your sake the metal work is ok, but have it checked as Terry said... Assuming it is all to spec, then i'd eat what that cost you, and have it recrowned and stamped to spec. HOWEVER, if there is so much as one thing off kilter, i'd demand a full refund, even if you have to send the shit he supplied back. Get another FFL dealer or smith to mediate, so neither of you feels like they are getting hosed on sending it back. Sort of gun escrow I guess, lol.

    If I ordered badger DBM, that's exactly what i'd expect to get. While the ross is nice, it isn't what I asked for, and substitutions are not to be made without consent of the one holding the checkbook. And the McM excuse... bullshit. McM has gone out of their way time and time again for customers, especially Hide members, because they understand the value of service. If it really was a bad stock, all he had to do was call them and i'm sure they would have fixed it. Those guys bend over backwards to fix customer's fuck up's, let alone anything they did. We've seen it here before, they will even take back crap people changed their mind on... no way i'd even consider that, they really are at a whole new level of dedication. You might have to wait a while, but like Terry said about the smiths, there is a reason all the good companies are backed up and stacked up.

    oh, and just my personal opinion: i'd burn his ass crispy for trying to charge $600 for bedding. Gap is less than 1/3 that and is considered among the best... it's really simple to do, and since you have some experience with it now, you should be able to do a better job yourself than this asshat. I'd sweep up the epoxy dust you dremmeled out and mail it back to him with a reciept saying "here's your $600, fuck off".
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    that is a shit bedding job. the first thing i ever bedded was a 10/22, and it looked better than that. the inletting on the bottom metal is way oversized as well.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    McMillan most likely inlet the stock for the Badger M5, thus the fugly looking DD Ross BM monstrosity..... Shame... DD Ross & Badger are great parts when inlet is right!
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Well Ive recently talked it over with him,he is willing settle on my terms.He still doesnt believe the bedding is a big deal He agreed to dismiss the balance of the build and apologized for the work he sent me.He wants me to make it right and prove to me he is worthy.I refused to send the rifle back to him and wait another three months to recieve it.Once is enough for me so the balance will be cleared, and he offered to build me the next rifle and a fraction of the actual cost just to make it right.My next rifle will be an similar version of an XM-3,but i think ill leave it up to my Hide Member Smith now.the one who put together my barreld action for the 5R ON STEROIDS!I understand that shits happens but i sucks when it happens to you.Ill be posting updates of the bedding fix this week.A fellow hide member offered to send me a set of pillars priority just to get this thing going back to the range.Thanks 7mmRM!I will have to contact GAP to see if they can redo the crown and stamp the bolt knob along with recoating it.Im thinking no other gunsmith will want to fix the specs on it after somebody else built it?I wouldnt.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    glad to hear that you got some resolution to this. hopefully all the metal is in spec, but have it checked. If you can get GAP or a hide smith to redo the crown/coating/etc, i'm sure they can check it all out for you. If the metal is out of spec, they might be able to set the barrel back a smidge and re-ream it. Who knows, but if anyone can fix it, it will be them.

    my hope is that the hack did good lathe work, and just got sloppy with the end result. that should be the easiest to fix. Fingers crossed for you.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Yes he said he used an old Devcon can.I beleive the metal work is good as far the chambering goes ,is fine.The grouping seemed to reveal just bad bedding as the barrel warmed up.I hope GAP can do the right markings and crown,the M5 Badger is going back in instead of the other bottom metal.As the stock was originaly inleted for it, along with the pillars.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    sounds like it won't be too hard to get back on track. hang in there.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I have to question how many bedding jobs he does if he has an "old can" of devcon. That might apply to some of us who dont bed alot of rifles and something gets pushed to the back of the shelf but for a pro to not have fresh stock is unacceptable.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    NorCal Phoenix, regards to you there in San Ramon. I'm in Dublin, CA.
    smile.gif
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I've spoken with 81Sfo about this a time or two in PM, what he really was looking for is two things. #1 was if anyone thought the work was in any way acceptable and just cosmetic and #2 what he should owe the smith if anything. I know who the smith is, please don't pm me for more info, I'll name the hack publicly if it becomes needed. However....he really is nationally known....sadly.

    Lastly!! In the $1100+ that is still "owed" according to the smith....$600 of it is for bedding!! $600 for that crap? </div></div>

    I can only think of one smith who would have the gall to charge that much for a bedding job. They write fictional books on sniper shooting, and sound like one of the characters from 'Friends' -- the TV show. But they finish their bedding jobs -- which are always superb, at least the ones I've seen -- with some sort of shiny black paint. And truth be told, I think they'd charge more than $600, which is still ridiculous.

    Six hundred bucks for a lousy bedding job? You gotta out this guy. Is he nationally known as a smith, or as a shooter, or as a life coach (Tony Robbins?), or a chef (Guy Fieri?).
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    I guess we all cut corners every once in a while, we dont do our job right and dont put out 100% like we should.Only that when it comes to this day in age ,internet can really hurt you if your nationally known and your work is your name.We all rush some project or some task and ends up back firing on us. It sucks when we are on the recieving end and sucks more when we get caught not putting our best.I know this guy is sorry for sending his poorly done work out to me.Theres another hider here who also got a taste of his work here recently.he posted his rifle also ,but in a more forgiving dissmising way.I guess his mishap wasnt as ugly as mine.Yet he wont be able to shoot his rifle for awhile also.Those of you who have pm me got the low down of who he is.I dont know if his business will be affected now.I was not intending to burn him or hurt his business.Im sure he has a family that depends on him. i dont beleive all of his rifles come out of his shop looking like that,but I know other hiders have got a taste of his work and theres always something wrong with what they get. Is there a perfect Gunsmith out there?
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 81sfo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a perfect Gunsmith out there? </div></div>

    No but, there are several out there that are as close as you can get.

    Having a big name or being the popular flavor means dick. I've been lied to and shit on, it does suck ass.
     
    Re: My rifle back from the "Smith"??PIC HEAVY!

    Got it William,by the way i sent you a pm just now.
     
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