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MyBighorn isnt setting off CCI450's

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skeetlee

Gunny Sergeant
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Jun 13, 2008
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I will of course make a phone call Tuesday morning but until then I was wondering if anyone else has had trouble with weak firing pin strike with their TL3 actions? Out of the last 15 primers I have had 5 fail. Perhaps I have some old primers? I will say however a second wack has set a couple off. Not all will go off on the second attempt but two of the Five have?? . Accuracy on my dasher has been stellar. Fed 205's go off without a hitch.
I didn't see any replacement firing pin springs on the web site, but I'm hoping they offer something. My standard deviation is a bit better with the CCI primers compared to the federals. Accuracy about the same. Goood!!! I was just curious if this is common? Lee
 
Headspace may be set just a little long causing much of the firing pins energy to seat the cartridge forward in the chamber. If this is the case then you will have no issues once you have brass fire formed in that chamber and properly resized.
 
I have a TL3 that was doing this with the headspace set too long. Second firings on the brass have never failed.
 
Have you taken apart the bolt and cleaned it?

It should not have anything to do with where the primers are seated. The FP needs to fall until it hits the primer, if it needs to fall another .020" that should not make any difference. The primers should be seated to the bottom of the primer pocket.
 
How about a photo comparison of the primers. Is it actually a light strike? Or maybe a headspace problem as suggested.
 
diverdon said:
Have you taken apart the bolt and cleaned it?

It should not have anything to do with where the primers are seated. The FP needs to fall until it hits the primer, if it needs to fall another .020" that should not make any difference. The primers should be seated to the bottom of the primer pocket.
Click to expand...

That maybe true if the case was fully seated forward (shoulders against the chamber) and can not move anymore, but if the case can still move forward just a bit it may be possible that the firing pin is not transferring enough energy to set the primer off......another words to much energy is wasted moving the case ever so slightly.
 
Agree on the headspace being the possible cause of failure to fire.

Also, are these fireforming loads? I don't think 450's work as well for fireforming since they have a thick metal cap and take a harder impact to go off. I used Federal small rifle primers for my fireforming on my TL3, ran short at the end and used one CCI 450 for the last round. Even though it was headpaced with a false shoulder and jammed bullet it still didn't go off, pushed the case just far enough forward to get a light strike. I've been running 450's in formed brass ever since with no problems.
 
Palmetto-Pride said:
That maybe true if the case was fully seated forward (shoulders against the chamber) and can not move anymore, but if the case can still move forward just a bit it may be possible that the firing pin is not transferring enough energy to set the primer off......another words to much energy is wasted moving the case ever so slightly.
Click to expand...

Of course Sir, you are correct. I was responding to Jerry's post asking how deep they were seated, which I interpeted as asking how deep the primers are seated in the brass. I do not believe that how deep the primers are seated in the case is likely to be part of the problem here. The OP did not indicate that he had headspace gauges, so I thought in that situation dissassembly, cleaning and visual inspection and lubing of the bolt would be something the OP could do by himself today. On one precision rifle I bought there was enough greese and gunk in the bolt to make primer ignition iffy.

That is what I would look at first because I would not have to buy anything or go anywhere. If that did not help then of course find a friend who will lend you a nogo gauge or a set of gauges.
 
My brass is 3 times fired with .001 shoulder bump. Lapua brass untouched primer pockets. The issues isn't poor technique..
I have good marks on the primers so this is why I'm a little baffled. Looks like plenty of pin fall. The action is brand new, and inspected before I chambered my barrel. Accuracy is outstanding so I'm thinking the issue is with the primers. I will try and find some new 450's. That might prove to be the real challenge. Lol. I looked several local places yesterday and came up with nothing. Lee
 
For me it is not easy to tell for certain that a primer should have gone off by looking at the indent. I would hope to find a cause so that the problem did not come back at me at a bad time. At least shoot the bullets that failed to fire in another rifle (of the same caliber) and see if the other rifle cannot fire them either.
 
I know with my benchrest rifles and shooters that I chamber barrels for that when you have weak pun strikes accuracy will suffer. With a tac type rifle shooting steel plates these issues are harder to see. This new Federer barrel I chambered up is shooting in the 1's 3 shot groups at 100. That's about as good as one could hope for. With that said the pin must be striking properly. The only thing that doesn't make since is to have so many blank primers out of so few. That just doesn't quite add up. Lee
 
diverdon said:
Of course Sir, you are correct. I was responding to Jerry's post asking how deep they were seated, which I interpeted as asking how deep the primers are seated in the brass. I do not believe that how deep the primers are seated in the case is likely to be part of the problem here. The OP did not indicate that he had headspace gauges, so I thought in that situation dissassembly, cleaning and visual inspection and lubing of the bolt would be something the OP could do by himself today. On one precision rifle I bought there was enough greese and gunk in the bolt to make primer ignition iffy.

That is what I would look at first because I would not have to buy anything or go anywhere. If that did not help then of course find a friend who will lend you a nogo gauge or a set of gauges.
Click to expand...

For some reason I was thinking you were talking about head space depth not the depth of the primer seating so I would also have to agree on that.
 
I have a TL3 and so does a buddy of mine.. we both have this issue as well (receiver SN's low 1300's). Our Smith says firing pin engagement should be .055".. Bighorn disagrees and says .040"-.045" is plenty. Mine is .044" and his is .043" which fall within BH spec. I have 2 lots of CCI 450's.. some older ones work perfectly.. not a single misfire. Some new ones are around 50% success rate in my rifle. CCI 400 are no issue. Federals are no issue in my buddies either. He has about a 95% success with his lot of CCI 450's.
this is well formed brass as well.. no headspace issues, clean FP assembly
I'm no expert, but primer strikes look a little light when compared to my TL2 and Stiller.. those are both large rifle primers however.
 
Since some lots work and others not so much, I wonder if it's a cup material thickness or hardness issue with the primers.. pure speculation on my part.
 
I have never had any issue with CCI 450 and Bighorn actions, that combo is all I have ever used. In fact we Colorado boys have shot tens of thousands of them in TL1/TL2/TL3 actions. These were used in fireforming, Dasher, 6BR, BRX, ETC. I once had around 4 that didn't ignite first strike, similar to what you're describing once at a local match. I was not seating them deep enough and flush with the bottom of the primer pocket. It is not a Bighorn thing, and is likely not related to headspace either, but I don't know who chambered your barrel either.
 
Thank you B P UU this is the info i was looking for. Well i guess i now have one dislike with my Bighorn. I do like the action and the features it has. I was however a little concerned about spring strength , even before i bought the action. The floating bolt head takes up a lot of room so the spring has to be shortened to accommodate. I haven't measured my pin fall yet, but i will. I may even make a jig to measure spring weight. thanks for the info. Lee
 
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B-P-UU said:
I have a TL3 and so does a buddy of mine.. we both have this issue as well (receiver SN's low 1300's). Our Smith says firing pin engagement should be .055".. Bighorn disagrees and says .040"-.045" is plenty. Mine is .044" and his is .043" which fall within BH spec. I have 2 lots of CCI 450's.. some older ones work perfectly.. not a single misfire. Some new ones are around 50% success rate in my rifle. CCI 400 are no issue. Federals are no issue in my buddies either. He has about a 95% success with his lot of CCI 450's.
this is well formed brass as well.. no headspace issues, clean FP assembly
I'm no expert, but primer strikes look a little light when compared to my TL2 and Stiller.. those are both large rifle primers however.
Click to expand...

Some good info here - curious why non BH shooters are seeing issues. I see the same results so moved to Federal Primers for my TL3s (6 Dasher and 6.5 SAUM). Thanks for sharing. The primers that didnt discharge were hit very hard. I have a AI AX308 in 6.5L i use the CCI and not a single issue. I likely will just stick to CCI400, CCI BR4 or F205M in the TL3 as i love the action.
 
delfuego said:
I have never had any issue with CCI 450 and Bighorn actions, that combo is all I have ever used. In fact we Colorado boys have shot tens of thousands of them in TL1/TL2/TL3 actions. These were used in fireforming, Dasher, 6BR, BRX, ETC. I once had around 4 that didn't ignite first strike, similar to what you're describing once at a local match. I was not seating them deep enough and flush with the bottom of the primer pocket. It is not a Bighorn thing, and is likely not related to headspace either, but I don't know who chambered your barrel either.
Click to expand...

I am seating mine 3 thou below and still seeing no fires (1 out of 50 last weekend) on CCI450s - never seen a n fire on F205M.
PVA barreled my action and Josh delivers only good shit.
 
I have a TL3 chambered in 6.5x47L by PVA. I've only fired 450's in Lapua brass out of this rifle since I picked it up in November. Haven't had a misfire to date...
 
i would be curious to know the difference in firing pin weight from the TL2 action and the new bayonet pins on the TL3. I bet they are different?? Lee
 
You might just have a bad sleeve of primers, try another sleeve from the same box, then a sleeve from a another box and see.
 
My TL3 saum blanked about 30 in a row 95% fired on the second try. These were Tula Lrm primers , Ive been using this lot for a couple years and never had trouble.
Firing the second time around led me to believe it was a headspace issue . Went home and checked and sure enough they were sized a bit generously, not sure how it happened I thought I set it to bump 2 thou.
Anyways I reset my die for 2 thou and went back out with
30 more and All fired.
So double check headspace.
 
Like I said before, not a headspace issue in my case anyways.. fired the brass multiple times without bumping the shoulder back at all. Base to shoulder measurements didn't change between firings either.
and that doesn't explain being able to switch lots of primers and brands with varying results.
 
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in my Farley bench rifle I shoot Fed 205s in the 6PPC bbl and get 100% with my 6 BR bbl I cant use the CCI450s as 1 in 10 wont go off,,so I use the WW WSR primers in the Farley with the 6BR bbl ,,in my Stiller 6BRDX the CCI450s are 100% from the same brick I get 1 of 10 failure in my Farley action,,

the Farley is tuned with a light spring for the 205 GMM and wont light the 450s but I have no problems with them in my Stiller Predator V ,,
 
This action is touted as a control round feed (looks like a hybrid). Does the case actually get captured on the bolt face when it slides under the extractor? If so, and the case is centerd up with the chamber it can't be headspace. I have seen CRF actions shoot 260 out of 6.5x284 barrels because the case is held against the bolt face so the primer whacks it good regardless of headspace.

if your primers are seated all the way to the bottom that leaves only a couple things:

trigger isn't cocking the pin far enough
pin protrusion is wrong
cocking piece is dragging on the trigger
firing pin spring is too weak
there is something dragging on the inside of the bolt body
you have some shitty primers


If the primers go off the second time that is almost always a primer not seated to the bottom of the cup. That said, if it won't go off after a second hit there is another issue.

I had a similar issue with a Tempest. I asked for a heavier spring, as I don't care about saving .002 of a second cycling the bolt and I can stand breaking down my position if need be to light the primer 100% of the time. I can't swear the pin is heavier as it was inspection and fixed under warranty (super fast), but it looks thicker, cocks harder, made my trigger weight heavier and it did the trick. No more failures to fire. Love it now. Everyone who shoots it loves it. TL3 wasn't out then. It's a very interesting action. Very versatile for someone wanting to train with one stock, one trigger, one bolt throw.
 
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I have talked to several folks having problems with their newer lots of 450s.I have a older lot that I have not had any issues with,Josh should have my 6.5x47 done by the end of June so we will see.
 
FatBoy said:
This action is touted as a control round feed (looks like a hybrid). Does the case actually get captured on the bolt face when it slides under the extractor? If so, and the case is centerd up with the chamber it can't be headspace. I have seen CRF actions shoot 260 out of 6.5x284 barrels because the case is held against the bolt face so the primer whacks it good regardless of headspace.

if your primers are seated all the way to the bottom that leaves only a couple things:

trigger isn't cocking the pin far enough
pin protrusion is wrong
cocking piece is dragging on the trigger
firing pin spring is too weak
there is something dragging on the inside of the bolt body
you have some shitty primers


If the primers go off the second time that is almost always a primer not seated to the bottom of the cup. That said, if it won't go off after a second hit there is another issue.

I had a similar issue with a Tempest. I asked for a heavier spring, as I don't care about saving .002 of a second cycling the bolt and I can stand breaking down my position if need be to light the primer 100% of the time. I can't swear the pin is heavier as it was inspection and fixed under warranty (super fast), but it looks thicker, cocks harder, made my trigger weight heavier and it did the trick. No more failures to fire. Love it now. Everyone who shoots it loves it. TL3 wasn't out then. It's a very interesting action. Very versatile for someone wanting to train with one stock, one trigger, one bolt throw.
Click to expand...


It is a true CRF, it just doesnt have a claw.
 
Wasn't it a attribute for the TL3 that Bighorn tried to make the bolt lift easier??? Maybe that is the culprit, a lighter weight firing pin spring.
 
I'm building up a new match rifle on a TL3 and use 450s on my 6x47 load so we'll see. If they shit the bed I'll go back to BR4s. Not that big a deal.
 
padom said:
I have a TL3 chambered in 6.5x47L by PVA. I've only fired 450's in Lapua brass out of this rifle since I picked it up in November. Haven't had a misfire to date...
Click to expand...

Same here: PVA TL3 6-Dasher, 450's and Lapua. Zero failure to fire issues. I just seat primers with a crappy Lee hand priming tool. Timney CE 2-stage trigger. Receiver s/n in the low 1100's fwiw.
 
Just got back from the range. Fired another 100+ rds failure free all 450's. I am using a Jewel trigger, Serial# in the mid 1200's and I am using the replacement bolt head Bighorn sent me due to the NP3 issues they had a few months back. I never had a function issue with the new or old bolt head. Just the NP3 flaking off due to bad batch their applicator sent them.
 
craigos said:
Here is my CCI450 Dasher hit with my TL3. Thats a huge hit on the primer - not shallow at all. Had 5 of these in a tray .. me think its the primers. Sorry the blurry pic, camera wouldnt focus well


http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...psc6lcnf0d.jpg
Click to expand...

If that's not a bad primer...show me what is...

I'd like the OP to try 10 rounds with a sleeve from his current brick and 10 from a different brick and report back. I think a bad lot of primers is the most likely culprit though we've had a few good suggestions.
 
My tl3 has about 1000 rounds on it. All cci small rifle primers (non magnum). It hasn't had a single failure. Serial number early 1200s.

My brother has the sequential serial number tl3. He has had some failures with some very old Winchester primers that we had laying around. He was using them to fireform. I looked at them. The firing pin hit then real good. I'm almost certain they are bad primers. He has had zero issues with cci primers.
 
padom said:
... I never had a function issue with the new or old bolt head. Just the NP3 flaking off due to bad batch their applicator sent them.
Click to expand...

Wait, what?! I was just noticing something similar on my bolt head. It looks like the finish has almost flaked off entirely after only 600 rounds.

What did Bighorn do about it?
It has gotten worse since this picture was taken.
 

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Call bighorn. They will send you a new bolt head, and a return label for the old one. It is purely cosmetic. If you care, get it replaced, if not, shoot on.
 
I would tend to think np3 serves more than cosmetic purposes. If it's wearing off so fast and and is only cosmetic, then what's the point of applying it in the first place? I'll give them a call.
Op, sorry if I derailed your thread.
 
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craigos said:
Here is my CCI450 Dasher hit with my TL3. Thats a huge hit on the primer - not shallow at all. Had 5 of these in a tray .. me think its the primers. Sorry the blurry pic, camera wouldnt focus well


http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...psc6lcnf0d.jpg
Click to expand...

FWIW I had my 6.5 saum doing this same thing (with two different types of primers none the less). not a big horn, but it ended up being I had crap in the shroud slowing the firing pin down. obviously with hits like this you are getting enough firing pin fall, but it takes not only firing pin fall depth, but speed to set of a primer. I missed what trigger you were using, but if its a timney, that may be your issues as I have heard and seen issues the weird stuff happening with them and the cocking piece/drag ect. or maybe you have some gunk or what not in the bolt. have you taken the bolt apart and cleaned it completely yet? when you dry fire does it have that heavy "WACK!" or is it kinda soft?
 
earthquake said:
I would tend to think np3 serves more than cosmetic purposes. If it's wearing off so fast and and is only cosmetic, then what's the point of applying it in the first place? I'll give them a call.
Op, sorry if I derailed your thread.
Click to expand...


It is purely cosmetic and not NP3 wearing off. Bighorns applicator did not perform proper prep work before applying NP3 and it.caused the NP3 to flake off. They switched applicators and are replacing bolts. Just call or email them, they will send you a new one. There was a big thread Bighorn themselves posted a while back informing everyone of this.
 
Did this ever get resolved?

Found this thread problem-solving my TL3 as well. Have tried CCI 450s and BR4s in my 6 Dasher and same issues as OP.

50% won't fire. 90% of them will fire on a second or third trigger pull. Brass is new brass, hydroformed, and I didn't touch the primer pockets prior to loading. I have taken the bolt apart and there is no issue there. I seat primers will the Lee hand tool and all are slightly below flush. Here are some pictures of FTF rounds that won't go off no matter how many strikes.
 

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I had the same problem with CCI450s and a Timney 510. BigHorn can do something to the firing pin. I have switched to TriggerTech triggers and no longer see the problem.
 
Appreciate all the responses. I have loaded up some 205M primers tomorrow and am going to look at the trigger as well.

@padom Trigger is a 510 and the sear adjustment is untouched and still has the factory paint on the washer. I did adjust the overtravel and pull weight (the two screws in the front) when I got it.
 
@christopher.dow Did you ever get it work before you ditched? Ever try other primers?

I have been eyeballing the TT triggers for a while so having to make the switch wouldn't be the worst but I'd like to get it fixed and know it isn't the firing pin.
 
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