• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

rsplante

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 2, 2011
293
0
69
Houston, TX
eek.gif
I've been reloading for a few months, approximately 600 rounds, and just received a serious wake-up call. This is intended for fellow newbies as the rest of you know better. The situation I am about to describe nearly caused me to require an underwear change, and could have potentially cost me my rifle/hand/life. The round in question involved once fired Lake City brass, a .224 77gr SMK bullet, GM205M primer, 25gr of VARGET powder, and an RL550B progressive loader. I weigh every powder charge, and I try to be careful to ensure I do not double-charge a round. In this case, I failed in the other direction.

Apparently I had let a round get away with much less than a full charge, or none at all. I noticed it when my AR failed to fire. The usual clearing drills had no effect. Eventually I noticed that the bolt was locked up. I field stripped the rifle but could not budge the bolt carrier group. When I eventually forced it open (unknowingly leaving the bullet stuck in the lands) it ejected the brass who-knows-where. At this point it time, I probably should have called it a day and trouble-shot the rifle at home. What I did do is reassemble it and get back to shooting. I tried two or three times and eventually realized that it was not going into battery (bolt not fully closing on the next round.) All of a sudden, it hit me as to how close I had come to a life-changing event. The underpowered previous round (powered by either the primer alone, or primer plus insufficient powder) had wedged the bullet in the lands. Hence, I had manually pulled the brass off of the bullet. In a moment of Divine intervention, God saved me from myself by not allowing the subsequent round to go into battery. If the previous round had gone just a little bit further down the barrel (less than an inch), and the current round had seated, I would have experienced a catastrophic failure known informally as a kaboom. At the least, the chamber would have instantaneously and violently come apart, and at the worst, it might have taken me with it.

I have decided that from now on, a mandatory quality control check for my handloads will include weighing the completed round. Any that are obviously underweight will be pulled apart for inspection.
eek.gif
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

I've loaded several hundred rounds without an issue. I've heard stories like this though and the rule you need to make with yourself is check and re-check if anything feels off.

If you fire the gun and it doesn't feel right, have a look just in case you have a squib like what happened to you.

Rich
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

You realized what you needed to, possibly a few rounds before you should have, but reguardless...you realized it. The important thing is your still in one piece, and as a bonus, so is your rifle.

One thing you can do to mitigate this is weigh each round, or atleast a set of 3-5 at a time, and know about what it/they should weigh, if its off by roughly your charge weight... you have yourself a problem.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Rule #1: if <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ANYTHING</span></span> feels, sounds, or <span style="font-style: italic">seems</span> different in <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> way, insure that the hole still goes <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">all the way</span></span> to the end of the barrel!

There are only two types of reloaders - those who have experienced a squib load, and those that <span style="font-style: italic">are going to</span> experience a squib load!
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nicholst55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rule #1: if <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ANYTHING</span></span> feels, sounds, or <span style="font-style: italic">seems</span> different in <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> way, insure that the hole still goes <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">all the way</span></span> to the end of the barrel!

There are only two types of reloaders - those who have experienced a squib load, and those that <span style="font-style: italic">are going to</span> experience a squib load! </div></div>

+1

You nailed it. The key is to STOP the instant something is off, and find out exactly what it is.

Man, a blocked rifle barrel kaboom is about as bad as it gets.

Whats worse:

1: Bullet stuck in 223 bore, and firing a "good" cartridge
2: Clear bore, firing a 223 cartridge charged with 25gr titegroup or 700X
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Outstanding advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There are only two types of reloaders - those who have experienced a squib load, and those that <span style="font-style: italic">are going to</span> experience a squib load! </div></div>

+1

You nailed it. The key is to STOP the instant something is off, and find out exactly what it is.
[/quote]
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

+1 for the shaking, every round I load is shaken after seating. I can always hear the powder inside the case, funny you should bring this up, I caught an uncharged case just last night, the first one in years. But it would have ruined a field trip 800 miles away from home and rendered me gunless. Habits pay off over time.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

As I age I think I am more seceptable to lapses like these. About 5 years ago
I started leaving my spotlite on the reloading bench. When a loading block has
all the cases charged I take the spotlite and make a quick look in all the cases.
It takes seconds is all. It may work for others , it's peace of mind for me.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Always take the time to inspect your reloads, and when things dont seem right.

Lucky for you the projectile didnt make its way too far into the lands.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Glad you caught it it is a scary thing, had it happen to me and my son but not with my hand loads and thankfully I caught it before the next round was loaded. My 10 year old Son and I where at the range and he was shooting a Winchester 22LR wit CCI ammo, he pulled the trigger and it did not go off. i immediately told him just to eject the round rimfire does that sometimes, luckily I noticed when he ejected the round just. A casing no bullet came out and caught stopped him before he could get the next round in the chamber. Pulled the bolt and sure enough bullet was stuck in the lands and no powder. Scared me bad, but at the same time it was a great chance to teach him a valuable lesson, if something goes wrong or doesn't seem right always pull the bolt and make sure the gun barrel is clear.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As I age I think I am more seceptable to lapses like these. About 5 years ago
I started leaving my spotlite on the reloading bench. When a loading block has
all the cases charged I take the spotlite and make a quick look in all the cases.
It takes seconds is all. It may work for others , it's peace of mind for me. </div></div>

i do the same thing. + 1 if it doesnt go bang you need to investigate throughly.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

All good advice, but you have to go back and ask yourself how, despite how careful you are, a round got away with “much less than a full charge, or none at all”.

Remember, this is a learning experience. You are getting good advice as to how to respond when you get a squib in the range, you still need to go back and look at your reloading setup

If you don’t figure that part out, it’s going to happen again. The fact that you are a completely new reloader and you are using a progressive is a red flag. This can be done safely but it is certainly harder to do than say a single or turret press.

Since you had a major problem, there is obviously something going on back there you need to figure out. The way I look at it, we all have weak points and this is unavoidable. The key to success is figuring out your weak point and take measures to address it.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Man, thats scary. Thank you for sharing this as I am new to reloading as well. I'd rather not learn the really hard way about things like this.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

When I'm reloading, after the case prep is complete and all cases are primed with the primer facing up (double check for primer orientation) I'll weight each charge, then pick up and charge the case, and immediately seat the bullet in the charged case. This is the best way I know of to ensure I don't seat a bullet with either no powder or double powder.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Only uncharged cartridge Ive ever put together was a 308 bolt action, on my first run with my dillon 650. I was weighing each charge.

Found it during a stage of a competition. Luckily, the bullet didnt come outta the case and all I needed to do was shuck it out and load another.

You should EASILY be able to feel/detect a squib with any gun from a 22lr rifle to an AR10. You must stop and see whats going on. The scariest gun for these is a revolver. Autos will almost never cycle from a squib, and even if they do, its uncommon for the next round to go into battery. A revolver curtails all those safegaurds...if you are in rapid fire and pull the trigger after a squib - a full tilt kaboom results.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

I don’t totally trust myself to not have a lapse since I know that it is impossible to remain alert 100% of the time. I use a spreadsheet to remind myself and to double check. It’s pretty complicated but here are the essentials:

Column 1 – weight of brass with primers

Column 2 – weight of powder (this is not an actually weight, just what I am going to put in – it is a reminder for myself) and has to be entered. THe powder weight will always be dead on (within 0.01gr) or it does not come off the pan.

Column 3 – weight of brass with primers plus powder.

Column 4 – difference – this is an auto calculation which takes the number in Col 1 and minus it from Col 3. This should be within 0.04gr of col 2.

So you see, there are actually 3 weightings for each round – brass+primer, powder, and brass+primer+powder. So check and double check.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

There are some good tips here. I visually look at each case before seating bullets. Your idea of weighing each one is good and look for those that are overweight too. Glad to hear that you and the gun are okay.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are some good tips here. I visually look at each case before seating bullets. Your idea of weighing each one is good and look for those that are overweight too. Glad to hear that you and the gun are okay. </div></div>

Thanks to everyone for the good tips.
With a progressive loader, visually checking is a no-go; however, what I had been doing is to insert a pipe cleaner into the case whenever I lost track of where I was (i.e. if I have to reweigh a charge and get out of rhythm, I've also had a few charges "bridge" in the powder die when I poured the weighed charge into the funnel with extension so that when I lower the press, it goes all over the bench. That distraction sometimes gets me out of sync. Then there are the family distractions.) In any event, if I know that I have lost track, I will check if it is loaded with a pipecleaner. Apparently I missed on one. I basically have settled on the weighing of a completed round. I know what the total weight should be. I have not started sorting my brass by weight, so I expect a variation of a few grains. The SMK bullets never vary by more than a tenth of a grain, the primers are so light, the variation is likely to be negligable. That only leaves the powder charge. I'm running 25-26 grains of VARGET. If the whole round comes up even 5 grains light, it's coming apart in the bullet puller. Sounds like a big hassle, but it's better than the alternative. And actually, it will not take too much extra time considering that I already check concentricity on each finished round. I just have to have my Chargemaster sitting next to my concentricity gauge and each round will merely be staged on the scale while waiting to be checked for runout.

Thanks again for the suggestions and encouragement; however, as I stated in the OP, my main purpose in posting was so that anyone who has not experienced a squib yet can hopefully avoid my stupid mistake (trying to continue shooting after experiencing a squib.)
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

I keep the cylinder from a Colt Trooper Mk ii on my bench as a reminder.
A friend of mine loaned the gun to a LEO buddy who reloads. The LEO returned the gun, placed it in my buddy's hand and said thanks and walked away.
The next time my friend went to the range with that gun he found:
The cylinder split
The split brass still in the chamber
The primer gone
The head stamp obliterated by the firing pin bushing.

Replace the cylinder, and all else OK.
Dangerous stuff, and one of the reasons I do not loan anything that goes whizz, putt putt or bang.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Fully Involved,

I use a couple of Dillon presses, and I like their powder check die. Not sure if your setup leaves an empty station, but it is cheap insurance.

I would offer that most mistakes are made at a break in your routine. First round, last round, round after something screws up with the press, round after you walk to the fridge, answer the phone etc. When I have an interruption I always leave my press handle DOWN. There is no question where the press is in the sequence of operation; you know exactly where you left off.

If you are weighing charges by hand for rifle loads, are you really getting any benefit from the progressive? I assume you are sizing, then cleaning the sized brass as a seperate operation? If so, a single stage press would add only a priming operation, and would be a nice addition to your setup.

Adding to what was said above regarding visual inspection of powder charged cases; if you hold the tray at just the right angle so that the charge is barely visible over the lip of the case mouth, you can discern not only powder/no powder, but you can also spot small differences in the height of the powder column.

Best regards,

Randy
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Weighing a round is a good check since unlike pistol rounds, there is significant amount of powder in a rifle round.

If you notice you are getting bridging in your powder, it is worth your while to try to avoid this. Some reloaders tape a vibrator (yes, it is one of those) to the charging die setup to get around this problem and avoid the mess, interruption, and potential problem.

If your family is distracting you, it would also be worth your while to explain to them what you are doing and the consequences of the interruption, this will not completely avoid the problem but would likely minimize it.

Know your problems and find ways to avoid them, not tolerate them.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

I have to agree on the visual as the best quick check. That's what I do. Shaking a loaded cartridge only works when you are not compressed or very close to compressed. I shoot .223 lightly compressed loads so a visual in the loading block tells me everything I need to know about the powder charges.
I am glad to hear that you walked away from this though! A good lesson learned as opposed to a hard lesson learned! God bless.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would offer that most mistakes are made at a break in your routine. First round, last round, round after something screws up with the press, round after you walk to the fridge, answer the phone etc. When I have an interruption I always leave my press handle DOWN. There is no question where the press is in the sequence of operation; you know exactly where you left off.


Randy </div></div>

Absolutely correct. I recognized this the first time I encountered a stoppage when learning to run my 550b. I also only walk away from the press with the lever down (ram up), because, as you said, it removes all doubt of where you are in the sequence.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

In my IPSC days I used to see squibs pretty regularly at the range, and I've had a couple, but the worst was the double charged 45 with about 11 grains of Win 231. KABOOM!!

Broken slide and brass bits in my face.

With Rifles it's harder to get the 2x charge thing because most of the powders we run are slow burning and there is not enough room to double one. In any case lesson learned, this hobby is one giant study in QC, with tactile feedback for failures.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully Involved,

I use a couple of Dillon presses, and I like their powder check die. Not sure if your setup leaves an empty station, but it is cheap insurance.

I would offer that most mistakes are made at a break in your routine. First round, last round, round after something screws up with the press, round after you walk to the fridge, answer the phone etc. When I have an interruption I always leave my press handle DOWN. There is no question where the press is in the sequence of operation; you know exactly where you left off.

If you are weighing charges by hand for rifle loads, are you really getting any benefit from the progressive? I assume you are sizing, then cleaning the sized brass as a seperate operation? If so, a single stage press would add only a priming operation, and would be a nice addition to your setup.

Adding to what was said above regarding visual inspection of powder charged cases; if you hold the tray at just the right angle so that the charge is barely visible over the lip of the case mouth, you can discern not only powder/no powder, but you can also spot small differences in the height of the powder column.

Best regards,

Randy </div></div>

Randy,
I fully concur with your assessment of the primary cause of uh-oh's. As for your question about the advantage of my using a progressive? Might be a good question... As I said, I am new to this. I knew Dillon was a good name, and went with it. My process now has evolved to the point that I am using 3 different toolheads. On the first one, I am only decapping with a universal decapper. Then I swage, debur the flash hole, and normalize the primer pocket. I switch toolheads, lube them up and full-length size and trim (Dillon RT1200 trimmer) (I use two toolheads because the flash-hole deburring tool will not fit inside the neck if I use the Dillon trim die first. Due to the trimmer, it does not have a ball inside and leaves the neck undersized.) I then debur and chamfer the neck. I run it through a Hornady Magnum Sonic Cleaner, Rinse, and air dry for a day or two. Then I switch to the third toolhead (by Whidden Gunworks, with a floating die and UniqueTek Toolhead Clamp. The two companies apparently collaborate and you can buy it finished at: http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1389 ) which has the full length sizer (I know, partially redundant, but I need to run the ball through the neck), a powder die without the powder measure (where I add my weighed charges) into a Redding Competition Bullet Seating Die, and then into a crimping die. Then I check concentricity with a Hornady concentricity gauge. This last step will be performed in conjunction with weighing the finished round from now on.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Weighing a round is a good check since unlike pistol rounds, there is significant amount of powder in a rifle round.

If you notice you are getting bridging in your powder, it is worth your while to try to avoid this. Some reloaders tape a vibrator (yes, it is one of those) to the charging die setup to get around this problem and avoid the mess, interruption, and potential problem.

If your family is distracting you, it would also be worth your while to explain to them what you are doing and the consequences of the interruption, this will not completely avoid the problem but would likely minimize it.

Know your problems and find ways to avoid them, not tolerate them. </div></div>

jlow,
That vibrator sounds like a great idea. How is that actually accomplished in practice? Also, I can think of one additional potential issue, wouldn't that play havoc with my Chargemaster 1500? I have a relatively stable loading bench (built-in); however, I still cannot cycle the press when the Chargemaster is trickling the last few tenths of a grain, or it often goes over the programmed weight.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Any sort of a vibrator will not work if you are using any sort of a weight based dispenser, only volume based ones.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any sort of a vibrator will not work if you are using any sort of a weight based dispenser, only volume based ones. </div></div>

I was afraid of that. I still like the idea though. When I pour my weighed charge through the funnel with long drop tube and then through the powder die, it still occasionally bridges, causing a big mess when I lower the ram. Maybe the answer is to put my Chargemaster on a separate table.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Thats another reason why I use a single stage press! I check inside in each and every load with a little maglite or surefire light to check the powder charge before I seat a bullet.

When you throw charges by like I do, you would know if you double charge. You know when you try to throw 50grs of powder in a .223 case and you lift the funnel and powder pours everywhere. Thankfully thats only happened to me once.

Im not shooting thousands of rounds a month so I do not need a progressive press altho it would be nice when loading for my 45ACP pistol! It takes me about a half hour to load 100rds of 45ACP with a single stage, not tooooo bad!
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats another reason why I use a single stage press! I check inside in each and every load with a little maglite or surefire light to check the powder charge before I seat a bullet.

When you throw charges by like I do, you would know if you double charge. You know when you try to throw 50grs of powder in a .223 case and you lift the funnel and powder pours everywhere. Thankfully thats only happened to me once.

Im not shooting thousands of rounds a month so I do not need a progressive press altho it would be nice when loading for my 45ACP pistol! It takes me about a half hour to load 100rds of 45ACP with a single stage, not tooooo bad! </div></div>

Good god! I can't imagine going back to a single state to load pistol ammo.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

When I was a young PFC armorer I had a guy come up to me with his weapon during cleaning, saying "I can't get the cleaning rod down the barrel all the way?" After a bit of investigation I realized this guy had a bullet part way down the barrel. It turns out, like you, he was extremely lucky. The last round of the day for him was a "pop and no kick." If it had been the second to last round he would likely have gotten a kaboom!
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As I age I think I am more seceptable to lapses like these. About 5 years ago
I started leaving my <span style="color: #33CCFF">spotlite on the reloading bench.</span> When a loading block has
all the cases charged I take the spotlite and make a quick look in all the cases.
It takes seconds is all. It may work for others , it's peace of mind for me. </div></div>
I do two inspections while loading once after I prime the cases, ensureing all cases are primed and again after I charge all of the cases, looking for the same level of powder then I push a bullet into all 50 and put them in a fresh container.
Thanks for sharing, it is a reminder that we need to be aware of the problems that can happen.
SScott
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nicholst55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rule #1: if <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ANYTHING</span></span> feels, sounds, or <span style="font-style: italic">seems</span> different in <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> way, insure that the hole still goes <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">all the way</span></span> to the end of the barrel!

There are only two types of reloaders - those who have experienced a squib load, and those that <span style="font-style: italic">are going to</span> experience a squib load! </div></div>

+1. It should be pretty obvious when one doesn't go bang. That's a good time to investigate why. Had one in my HK USP with no powder, just the primer. Was enough to just lodge the bullet in the barrel. I stopped, disassembled, and removed the stuck bullet.

Your story reminds me of this guy that had the same thing happen but didn't listen to his rifle...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Oh1lyMyejpI"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Oh1lyMyejpI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Had this happen using someone else's handloads, one didn't go off, cycled the handle, it wouldn't go into battery, look at the nose of the one I cycled in and the bullet was shoved into the case. I got pretty lucky and it was the last time I ever shoot that persons reloads.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Fully Involved,

Sounds like you've put a lot of thought and work into your procedures, and sounds like you were anything but slipshod, and your close call has obviously put a keener edge on your awareness of what can happen.

You have obviously thought through your procedures, and sounds like your tool head is full on the last trip through. Out of curiosity, are you sold on the benefits of a crimp? I've never felt the need for a crimp, even on service rifle stuff. Many swear by crimping as an asset to accuracy, and I'm not criticizing their choice or yours, just posing the question. Eliminating the crimp would give you room for the powder check station. . .

Best Regards,

Randy
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

[/quote]
2: Clear bore, firing a 223 cartridge charged with 25gr titegroup or 700X [/quote]

HOLY COW - that would suck !

I just got done loading 100 rounds of subs with Titegroup... time to go shake each round just in case.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully Involved,

Out of curiosity, are you sold on the benefits of a crimp? I've never felt the need for a crimp, even on service rifle stuff. Many swear by crimping as an asset to accuracy, and I'm not criticizing their choice or yours, just posing the question. Eliminating the crimp would give you room for the powder check station. . .

Best Regards,

Randy </div></div>

Randy,
Naw, I'm too new to reloading to be sold on anything. (except VARGET lol) I started crimping because the crimping die came with my set of Dillon .223 dies. Since then I have switched the bullet seating die to a Redding, so maybe I should drop the crimp die. I frankly never saw a need before, but having space for the powder check station makes me pause to think about it. Right now, I have been concentrating on trying to clone a MK262. I know I will not be able to duplicate the cannister powder they use; however, I have pretty much duplicated the results as far as I can tell. 77gr Sierra HPBT w/cannelure @ 2850 fps. I figure the MK262s are crimped, so I crimp mine. I understand that the crimp is supposed to hurt accuracy; but, I have been getting below 0.5 moa groups of 5 at 200 yd even with the crimp. I have not gone to crimping the primers though (and have not seen any capability for handloaders anyway), although I have bought the primer sealer (never used it though).
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fully Involved,

... Eliminating the crimp would give you room for the powder check station. . .

Best Regards,

Randy </div></div>

Randy,
I just remembered why I never bought the powder check tool from Dillon. I went to their website and found the tool and it had the following description attached, "Fits the XL650 and RL1050/Super 1050 machines."

I wrote a note to Dillon asking if they were planning to produce one for the RL550. I also prodded them on an earlier suggestion I had made. I would like to see them make a caliber specific trimmer for the RT1200 which will trim, debur and chamfer in one step. When I first wrote to them, they wrote back and said, "...it would have to be caliber specific." Well duhh, I guess they didn't read my suggestion too closely.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Fully Involved - Glad to hear you're ok.

For me when I load my 77 SMK I prefer do it on a single stage. The reason being is 25.0 gr of Varget (which is what I use) is nearly filling up the case (Lake City). I like to use the long drop tube to prevent crushing the powder too much. When I seat the bullets I can still feel the powder getting crushed just a bit. It's kinda my way of double checking I have enough powder. No crunching sound = not enough powder or no powder at all.

Also on a single stage you can easily verify powder charge each time you insert a case in the press.

All my precision ammo is loaded on my lee single stage. everything else on the Dillon 650.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

I'd never thought about it not fitting the 550. The only thing I can think of is a hole in the 650 toolhead to accomodate an actuating rod. If that is the only snag, a 3/8 drill would have you running. I'll look closer tonight to see if there is something I'm missing. It may be that Dillon thought of running the 550's stations as 1)Size/deprime, 2)Prime/bell/charge, 3)Seat, 4)Crimp leaving no room for the powder check die. That's would fit with the 650 sequence at least. . .

Randy
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All my precision ammo is loaded on my lee single stage. everything else on the Dillon 650. </div></div>

The question of "to crimp or not to crimp" came up. Which way do you go with your precision ammo?
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It may be that Dillon thought of running the 550's stations as 1)Size/deprime, 2)Prime/bell/charge, 3)Seat, 4)Crimp leaving no room for the powder check die. That's would fit with the 650 sequence at least. . .

Randy
</div></div>
Close. The Priming actually happens at station 1 after decapping. They wrote back with what I take as a rather curt answer and they still don't "get-it" on my RT1200 caliber specific cutter suggestion: "There is no place on the RL550 to install a powder check. At this time we don’t offer a cutter that inside chambers as well as trim and outside deburr. This will require a bullet diameter specific cutter, at considerable cost."

I wrote back that I don't understand why they are having such a hard time with the idea of a caliber specific cutter that will trim, debur and chamfer in one step. The Gracey Power Cartridge Case Trimmer does it and as I understand it, the "shaft assembly" which appears to include the adjusted cutters is only $38.00. Of course, their entire tool is a little pricey at $280, but not that much more than a Dillon RT1200. If I had realized they would be this uncooperative, I think I would have just gone with Doyle Gracey's design.

When I wrote back to the Dillon people, I also asked about WHY the powder check will not work with a 550. I said that if it is only a matter of lacking a position in the toolhead, I would leave out the crimp die. Randy, are you saying that there is an extra untapped 3/8" hole in the 650 toolhead? To me, it seems like a tool could be designed that would be self-contained in one standard die position. I really think they are missing a chance to make money on these two areas. I challenged them by saying that if I had their facilities, I would design and sell the two tools. (I guess that's my inner PE and MBA coming out. Definitely not an inner diplomat in there!)
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd never thought about it not fitting the 550. The only thing I can think of is a hole in the 650 toolhead to accomodate an actuating rod. If that is the only snag, a 3/8 drill would have you running. Randy
</div></div>

I think I will pass on drilling my Whidden Gunworks CNC floating toolhead, but I think I'll suggest that they (Whidden) tackle it.
Thanks,
Ron
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

Ron,

I rushed through the shop last night gathering up tools/supplies to do some load development at the rifle bench and forgot to look at the powder check die/tool head arrangement.

"Randy, are you saying that there is an extra untapped 3/8" hole in the 650 toolhead?"

Yes. The powder check die is painfully simple. A rod (ROD 1) passes through the powder check die body and into the case mouth. As the turret comes up, ROD 1 is raised to a given height by the powder column in your charged case. Near the top of the stroke, a second rod (ROD 2) mounted alongside the die body actuates a pivoting buzzer mechanism that either aligns or does not align with a notch in the top of ROD 1. If it does not align, (= powder column low or high) the buzzer sounds an alarm and you know to stop and check for a problem. I will do my best to post some pics tomorrow night (= 1,000 words).

Best Regards,

Randy
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

1. You need some way to physically verify the correct charge in each case before seating the bullet. I would never reload on a progressive press without this step. Dillon, RCBS, and Hornady all make powder check dies for this purpose that make the check easier but it still requires you to pay attention.

2. I stopped using Varget for .223 because of too much bridging. While bridging would probably never cause a squib, it will cause a series of undercharged cases followed by one that is seriously overcharged. A lot of reloaders prefer ball powders because they meter so well. I use WInchester 748 for 223 for this very reason.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

havnt run into this yet. i used to shake all the rounds next to my ear, but now that i picked up a few loading trays i just run a flashlight over the top and look down the necks, pretty easy to see the one with no powder, and with larger brass you will know when you have a much lower charge.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTodd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ron,

I rushed through the shop last night gathering up tools/supplies to do some load development at the rifle bench and forgot to look at the powder check die/tool head arrangement.

"Randy, are you saying that there is an extra untapped 3/8" hole in the 650 toolhead?"

Yes. The powder check die is painfully simple. A rod (ROD 1) passes through the powder check die body and into the case mouth. As the turret comes up, ROD 1 is raised to a given height by the powder column in your charged case. Near the top of the stroke, a second rod (ROD 2) mounted alongside the die body actuates a pivoting buzzer mechanism that either aligns or does not align with a notch in the top of ROD 1. If it does not align, (= powder column low or high) the buzzer sounds an alarm and you know to stop and check for a problem. I will do my best to post some pics tomorrow night (= 1,000 words).

Best Regards,

Randy

</div></div>

Randy,
Ah-hah, I wasn't thinking, but I believe I understand now. I had thought that only one measurement device was needed; however, it would have no way of knowing when you were cycling the press. i.e. it would only detect a charged or overcharged condition, but would not know to check for a no or low powder condition. On the 550, the toolhead does have a hole in the center, so Dillon could use that to detect when the ram was raised, if I am correct about that functionality.
 
Re: Near Kaboom--Wake Up Call!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbarnhart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. You need some way to physically verify the correct charge in each case before seating the bullet. I would never reload on a progressive press without this step. Dillon, RCBS, and Hornady all make powder check dies for this purpose that make the check easier but it still requires you to pay attention.

2. I stopped using Varget for .223 because of too much bridging. While bridging would probably never cause a squib, it will cause a series of undercharged cases followed by one that is seriously overcharged. A lot of reloaders prefer ball powders because they meter so well. I use WInchester 748 for 223 for this very reason. </div></div>

That's an interesting idea about the VARGET, but unfortunately, I still have about 7.5 lb to go though before giving up on it. I started with a 1 lb bottle, liked it and bought the 8 lb bottle. I planned on trying out other powders though, so I have 1 lb containers of Ramshot TAC, VihtaVuori N140, Accurate 2520, and Reloader 15. My main attraction to VARGET is the relative insensitivity to temperature fluctuations. I load indoors at 76 degF, and have been shooting recently at 100-109 degF. YES, it has been a hot summer here in Houston.