What are some tips for improving this ?
Thanks
Kyle
Thanks
Kyle
- Thread starter Macmathews
- Start date
Same Brass mfg and lot #, Neck turning, neck sizing, and annealing.
Terry
Terry
I've gotten to the point where my own abilities now justify "moving up" to bushing dies.
Using an insert that matches the actual chamber of your rifle (by measuring your fireformed brass), you size the neck precisely for the bullet/tension that produces the best results.
Here's a good read:
Neck Tension ? Not Just Bushing Size within AccurateShooter.com
Using an insert that matches the actual chamber of your rifle (by measuring your fireformed brass), you size the neck precisely for the bullet/tension that produces the best results.
Here's a good read:
Neck Tension ? Not Just Bushing Size within AccurateShooter.com
Lee collet neck sizing die. Anneal every 3 to 5 firings.
OFG
OFG
Annealing is absolutely essential for consistent neck tension, of course the proper bushing. But consistency is what you are after, the bushing can only squeese the metal that's there and it has to be the same temper. I keep the brass together as a batch, load it the same number of times, anneal the same time etc. And like old fat guy said, every 3 to 5 firings, and really if you want the same from the get go when they are brand new out of the bag.
Good advice there, I might add 4/0 steel wool on a brush/drill and clean necks. Same lot if possible same mfg
I used to do that to for awhile. Then when I started SS media tumbling it was not necessary anymore. In fact I'm not so sure they would really even need neck turning, not that I do that anyway, but they come out of the tumbling with all smoothed, honed like inside the necks. When I seat bullets they now all feel equal when sinking the bullets in the necks, can't feel any deviations as they go down. It never felt so good putting them down the hole like they do now
, all holes feel exactly the same now, ID's measure equal too.
I use a F/L die, adjusted upward to only resize about the end 1/3 of the neck length. Actually, even less; I test the seated bullet to ensure it can't be twisted in the neck using forefinger and thumb only (this is for hand fed single loading only).
Once the bolt closure resistance becomes significant, I will run the die down to bump the shoulder to nearly remove the resistance, then reset it to partial resizing length. Another approach would be to use, say, a .308 resizing die to bump-size a .260 case, leaving the case neck untouched.
I believe this practice has several advantages.
First, it reduces the length of the neck that gets work hardened, and confines it to the end, where some of it will get trimmed off in time.
Next, the rearward, unsized portion of the neck centers the case neck in the chamber better. Also, since the bottom end of the sidewall does not get resized as much, it also centers in the chamber better. This also works the casewall bottom less, possibly reducing some of the tendency to develop head separations.
Finally, the twist test ensures that there is (just) enough neck tension to prevent the bullet creeping during hand chambering. Thus ensures minimal acceptable neck tension, which I believe assists better accuracy. Because this test gets performed each reloading, it takes into account any neck brass work hardening.
This is not some hokey trick I cooked up on my own. It is an old BR handloadng technique from earlier days, when neck-only dies were less common. It was taught to me by my Elder Brother, who did BR shooting in the 1960's and 1970's.
Greg
Once the bolt closure resistance becomes significant, I will run the die down to bump the shoulder to nearly remove the resistance, then reset it to partial resizing length. Another approach would be to use, say, a .308 resizing die to bump-size a .260 case, leaving the case neck untouched.
I believe this practice has several advantages.
First, it reduces the length of the neck that gets work hardened, and confines it to the end, where some of it will get trimmed off in time.
Next, the rearward, unsized portion of the neck centers the case neck in the chamber better. Also, since the bottom end of the sidewall does not get resized as much, it also centers in the chamber better. This also works the casewall bottom less, possibly reducing some of the tendency to develop head separations.
Finally, the twist test ensures that there is (just) enough neck tension to prevent the bullet creeping during hand chambering. Thus ensures minimal acceptable neck tension, which I believe assists better accuracy. Because this test gets performed each reloading, it takes into account any neck brass work hardening.
This is not some hokey trick I cooked up on my own. It is an old BR handloadng technique from earlier days, when neck-only dies were less common. It was taught to me by my Elder Brother, who did BR shooting in the 1960's and 1970's.
Greg
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The article on accurate shooter is a worthwhile read. Without getting to fancy-schmancy, it touches on the myriad of factors that affect the "grip" of the caseneck on the bullet.
Personally, I've no interest in neck turning. I do anneal my cases from time to time, and I don't like bushing dies with busings ~.002" under loaded cartridge diameter.
As a tactical-type shooter, my brass gets shucked out on the ground and walked on by the next groups of shooters. By the time the stage is complete and I can fetch my brass, there are always some casenecks that are kinked out of round, and a bushing die with a -.002" bushing installed won't fix that.
I've found that dragging an expander ball though a caseneck on the ram downstroke can very easily tweak the caseneck and cause concentricity issues.
So, the method that I've come up with that consistently maintains excellent runout and neck tension is:
1. Anneal every 3 or 4 firings
2. No neckturning (neckturning will certainly improve neck tension consistency though)
3. FLS with a standard non-bushing FLS die with the expander removed. This will undersize the caseneck quite a bit - which allows it to handle most any caseneck kinks.
4. Use a sinclair expander die fitted with a "neck turning" mandrel. The "neck turning" mandrel is .002" under bullet diameter, yielding ~.002" "neck tension".
I do this on a Dillon 650. Bullet seating is very consistent, and concentricity is usually between .0005" and .001", though I certainly do get an occassional flier that is up to .002".
EDIT: I might add that good/proper inside diameter chamfering is crucial to consistent neck tension. Just yesterday I was pulling down a couple cartridges loaded by someone else, using a collet puller. I couldn't believe how much force it was taking to pull the bullet. There was inadequate chamfering, causing the burr on the casemouth to "bite" into the bullet. Also, the bullet's bearing surface was really chewed up.
Personally, I've no interest in neck turning. I do anneal my cases from time to time, and I don't like bushing dies with busings ~.002" under loaded cartridge diameter.
As a tactical-type shooter, my brass gets shucked out on the ground and walked on by the next groups of shooters. By the time the stage is complete and I can fetch my brass, there are always some casenecks that are kinked out of round, and a bushing die with a -.002" bushing installed won't fix that.
I've found that dragging an expander ball though a caseneck on the ram downstroke can very easily tweak the caseneck and cause concentricity issues.
So, the method that I've come up with that consistently maintains excellent runout and neck tension is:
1. Anneal every 3 or 4 firings
2. No neckturning (neckturning will certainly improve neck tension consistency though)
3. FLS with a standard non-bushing FLS die with the expander removed. This will undersize the caseneck quite a bit - which allows it to handle most any caseneck kinks.
4. Use a sinclair expander die fitted with a "neck turning" mandrel. The "neck turning" mandrel is .002" under bullet diameter, yielding ~.002" "neck tension".
I do this on a Dillon 650. Bullet seating is very consistent, and concentricity is usually between .0005" and .001", though I certainly do get an occassional flier that is up to .002".
EDIT: I might add that good/proper inside diameter chamfering is crucial to consistent neck tension. Just yesterday I was pulling down a couple cartridges loaded by someone else, using a collet puller. I couldn't believe how much force it was taking to pull the bullet. There was inadequate chamfering, causing the burr on the casemouth to "bite" into the bullet. Also, the bullet's bearing surface was really chewed up.
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Use a K&M arbor press with Force measurement. That way you can sort ammo by neck tension.
Neck tension is only one of the factors involved in creating pull force.
Another, largely unappreciated, one is bonding.
Over time, chemical reactions related to bimetallic corrosion can set up bonds between the metals of the jacket and the neck, adding significantly, often overwhelmingly, to the pull force. I have seen this in my own handloads when broken down as soon as two weeks after assembly. Cleaning neck interiors is only the beginning of what's needed to eliminate such issues. This is one of the reasons I discontinued using an inertia puller and invested in a collet puller; one can actually observe and compare true pull forces.
When you see intermediate materials, like bitumen in old USGI surplus M2 ball, being used to coat the case neck interior; you are seeing efforts intended to defeat that bonding over indeterminate eons of anticipated storage time.
Greg
Another, largely unappreciated, one is bonding.
Over time, chemical reactions related to bimetallic corrosion can set up bonds between the metals of the jacket and the neck, adding significantly, often overwhelmingly, to the pull force. I have seen this in my own handloads when broken down as soon as two weeks after assembly. Cleaning neck interiors is only the beginning of what's needed to eliminate such issues. This is one of the reasons I discontinued using an inertia puller and invested in a collet puller; one can actually observe and compare true pull forces.
When you see intermediate materials, like bitumen in old USGI surplus M2 ball, being used to coat the case neck interior; you are seeing efforts intended to defeat that bonding over indeterminate eons of anticipated storage time.
Greg
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Mr. Langelius,
Great info, thanks. I was going to say "Would that my ammo was around long enough for bonding to be an issue", but if you are finding it within a couple of weeks, it is another variable to consider.
I tumble cases with crushed walnut shells (no polish added), and brush out the cases with a nylon brush to remove most carbon and dust from tumbling. I was told to not get the inside of the necks too clean in order to prevent or minimize bonding as the,small amount of remaining carbon "insulates" the metals from bonding.
I read that some shooters encourage some tarnish on bullets to,reduce bonding. Is there any truth to these ideas, or are they just more unproven thoughts?
thanks
Great info, thanks. I was going to say "Would that my ammo was around long enough for bonding to be an issue", but if you are finding it within a couple of weeks, it is another variable to consider.
I tumble cases with crushed walnut shells (no polish added), and brush out the cases with a nylon brush to remove most carbon and dust from tumbling. I was told to not get the inside of the necks too clean in order to prevent or minimize bonding as the,small amount of remaining carbon "insulates" the metals from bonding.
I read that some shooters encourage some tarnish on bullets to,reduce bonding. Is there any truth to these ideas, or are they just more unproven thoughts?
thanks
Part of my bonding problem is very likely being caused by my use of CLR to dampen my tumbling medium (it does such an outstanding job of removing tarnish), I retumble later with 'clean' medium, but clearly that's not getting all the CLR/acid off the interior neck surface.
I couldn't say definitively that tarnished bullets would or would not resolve bonding effects. I'm guessing it would have some effect, and that it would probably not be beneficial; oxidation being at the heart of the issue.
I think the idea of incorporating an insulating medium between brass and jacket could have merit, but what to use, and how to employ it?
I don't want to interject an organic product that could alter the propellant in some negative manner.
I mentally lean toward lacquer/nail polish/cellulose acetate aircraft dope since it's so closely related to the nitrocellulose content of the smokeless powder. It should affect it less and burn most cleanly, keeping any additional fouling to a minimum.
The bitumen in M2 surplus ball ammo 'works', but at the cost of significant 'carbon' fouling, being related to coal dust and/or road tar. Wax and/or grease would seem to me (maybe erroneously) to be less compatible with smokeless powder inside the case.
There's still a lot to learn about this yet.
Greg
I couldn't say definitively that tarnished bullets would or would not resolve bonding effects. I'm guessing it would have some effect, and that it would probably not be beneficial; oxidation being at the heart of the issue.
I think the idea of incorporating an insulating medium between brass and jacket could have merit, but what to use, and how to employ it?
I don't want to interject an organic product that could alter the propellant in some negative manner.
I mentally lean toward lacquer/nail polish/cellulose acetate aircraft dope since it's so closely related to the nitrocellulose content of the smokeless powder. It should affect it less and burn most cleanly, keeping any additional fouling to a minimum.
The bitumen in M2 surplus ball ammo 'works', but at the cost of significant 'carbon' fouling, being related to coal dust and/or road tar. Wax and/or grease would seem to me (maybe erroneously) to be less compatible with smokeless powder inside the case.
There's still a lot to learn about this yet.
Greg
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
To me the only way to get consistent neck tension would be duplication of process and annealing. OFG has the right idea, but to me every second firing seems more logical, by the fifth it may be too late.
I chamfer every time, and use moly bullets, but if I didn't, I would not lube the cases.
People who say bushing dies are more consistent I say are full of it. They may help adjust the amount of tension, but a reg die is just as consistent, just might not be the amount you desire.
I chamfer every time, and use moly bullets, but if I didn't, I would not lube the cases.
People who say bushing dies are more consistent I say are full of it. They may help adjust the amount of tension, but a reg die is just as consistent, just might not be the amount you desire.
